14:43:41 RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag 14:43:41 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/06/07-wai-wcag-irc 14:43:43 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:43:45 Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG 14:43:45 ok, trackbot 14:43:46 Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 14:43:46 Date: 07 June 2016 14:43:47 zakim, agenda? 14:43:47 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda: 14:43:48 1. Github working group issues walk thru. [from AWK] 14:43:48 3. New Success Criteria principles [from AWK] 14:43:48 4. H91 changes (AWK) [from AWK] 14:43:49 5. Pull request 189 [from AWK] 14:44:01 Chair: AWK 14:47:42 LiangchengLI-ZJU has joined #wai-wcag 14:50:55 zakim, clear agenda 14:50:55 agenda cleared 14:51:06 Scribe: Wayne 14:51:20 agenda+ TPAC Registration (https://www.w3.org/2016/09/TPAC/) 14:53:09 agenda+ Mobile TF survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/2016-0509/ 14:53:20 agenda+ https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20160607Misc/ 14:53:44 agenda+ H91: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2016AprJun/0660.html 14:53:55 agenda+ WCAG Techniques and Understanding timeline 14:54:06 agenda+ WCAG.next timeline 14:54:15 agenda+ COGA update (Lisa) 14:57:18 steverep has joined #wai-wcag 14:57:28 Greg has joined #wai-wcag 14:57:54 what‘s the password 14:58:05 of webex 14:59:25 laura has joined #wai-wcag 15:00:32 KimD has joined #wai-wcag 15:00:44 lauriat has joined #wai-wcag 15:02:12 Kathy has joined #wai-wcag 15:02:22 Makoto has joined #wai-wcag 15:02:35 present+ Kathy 15:02:49 +AWK 15:02:56 present+ Lauriat 15:03:06 present+ Joshue108 15:03:08 present+ wayne 15:03:13 Present+ KimD 15:03:16 Ryladog has joined #wai-wcag 15:03:30 Present+ Katie_Haritos-Shea 15:03:36 present+ Greg_Lowney 15:03:43 +john_kirkwood 15:03:45 present+ John Kirkwood 15:03:51 Zakim, who is on the phone? 15:03:51 Present: AWK, Kathy, Laura, jeanne, KimD, alastairc, JF, Joshue108, SarahH, Makoto, David_MacDonald, Mike_Elledge, Greg_Lowney, kirkwood, MichaelC, Katie, Haritos-Shea, 15:03:54 ... patrick_h_lauke, Elledge, MacDonald, Katie_Haritos-Shea, wayne, jon_avila, marcjohlic, Rachael, adam_solomon, Shawn_Lauriat, [Steve, Repsher], JamesNurthen, Steve_Repsher, 15:03:54 ... steverep, Sarah_Swierenga, Lauriat, Steve, Andrew, DavidMacDonald, john_kirkwood 15:04:21 present+ Makoto 15:04:38 davidmacdonald has joined #wai-wcag 15:04:58 Present+ Davidmacdonald 15:05:01 marcjohlic has joined #wai-wcag 15:05:53 present+ MichaelC 15:06:03 present+ marcjohlic 15:06:21 Sarah_Swierenga has joined #wai-wcag 15:06:38 Zakim, take up item 1 15:06:38 agendum 1. "TPAC Registration (https://www.w3.org/2016/09/TPAC/)" taken up [from AWK] 15:07:10 present+steverep 15:07:30 present+ Laura 15:07:42 Rachael has joined #wai-wcag 15:07:47 AWK: TPAC We will meet 19-20 (Mon Tues) 15:08:07 Zakim, take up item 2 15:08:07 agendum 2. "Mobile TF survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/2016-0509/" taken up [from AWK] 15:08:09 -> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Meetings/TPAC2016 WCAG TPAC meeting page 15:08:15 MoeKraft has joined #wai-wcag 15:08:29 Kathy: I will scribe next week. 15:08:42 s/TPAC2016/TPAC 2016/ 15:09:08 Zakim, take up item 3 15:09:08 agendum 3. "https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20160607Misc/" taken up [from AWK] 15:09:19 Lisa_Seeman has joined #wai-wcag 15:09:29 password? 15:09:53 Topic: PDF Proposaal 15:09:54 kirkwood_ has joined #wai-wcag 15:12:41 Ryladog_ has joined #wai-wcag 15:12:45 AWK: This has been requested many times. People should be paying attention to tag order and not the ? order. Claim we could test using the refow panel. Whyle using reflow can give the reflow order is the difference. 15:13:00 s/sifference/diffeent/ 15:13:13 jon_avila has joined #wai-wcag 15:13:19 present+jon_avila 15:13:22 s/differeent/diferent/ 15:14:21 q? 15:14:31 AWK: We want to make sure that the tag order does determine order, but content stream is important. These changes are needed and aprotriate. 15:15:27 Josh: It sounds good. The issue of tage order being different from content order. Needs to call that our. 15:16:16 AWK: This needs to be kept simple, how to test ... 15:17:00 RESOLUTION: Accept as proposed 15:18:27 Topic: Adding PX comment to G18 and G145 15:18:54 AWK: This follows through with early dissussion with resize. 15:19:31 Mike_Elledge has joined #wai-wcag 15:19:56 present+ Mike_Elledge 15:20:02 Josh: The term user agent does not appear exact. Suggest remove user agent part. 15:20:46 AWK: The only concern is it is the same as in the Understanding Document. 15:20:53 q+ 15:21:14 Josh: User agents don't evaluat success criteria. 15:21:44 ack gr 15:21:46 ack gerg 15:21:57 AWK: This can be fixes with an editorial change. 15:22:55 +1 to Greg 15:23:12 Greg: Suggestion: The size in points from the UA... 15:23:15 allanj has joined #wai-wcag 15:23:25 AWK: We can add a comma after "does" 15:23:31 "The size in points should be obtained from the user agent ..." 15:24:02 q+ 15:24:27 ack josh 15:25:09 thanks for that Greg 15:25:11 AWK: will change first sentence to "The size in points should be obtained from the user agent, or calculated based on font metrics as the user agent does, when evaluating this success criterion." 15:25:36 RESOLUTION: Accept this change as amended. 15:26:43 Topic: Remove references of 3.2.1 from f52 15:28:12 AWK: This incorrectly states that 3.2.1 fails because of this. F52 does not 3.2.1. The full request the process removed 3.2.1 and then a few editorial changes. 15:29:11 q? 15:30:31 jamesn has joined #wai-wcag 15:30:42 agenda? 15:30:57 rrsagent, make minutes 15:30:57 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/07-wai-wcag-minutes.html jamesn 15:31:43 Pull request includes wcag20/sources/understanding/visual-audio-contrast7.xml 15:32:06 MichaelC: There is a reference to different item that needs to be pulled. 15:33:04 q+ 15:33:45 can you heaar me 15:33:54 akkk 15:33:57 coming 15:34:04 ack r 15:34:58 Katie: I agree that it looked like it was being deleted. 15:34:59 q+ 15:35:38 ack james 15:35:38 q+ 15:35:41 ack me 15:35:50 ack jame 15:35:51 ack jon 15:36:09 David: I just being removed from 3.2.1 we really remove it. If we are slow at adding failures we should be slow at removing them. 15:37:23 The WG discussed on April 6 and decided to remove it: http://www.w3.org/2016/04/05-wai-wcag-minutes.html#item06 15:37:24 q+ 15:37:31 JonA: Perhaps this is not exactly what we want. We don't have anything to claim. I'm on the fence. 15:38:17 q? 15:38:18 AWK: If it is wrong then it is still wrong. 15:38:32 q+ 15:39:01 ack greg 15:39:09 David: Is it a good mapping. We all agree that failures. We can't add failures. We have a double standard: easy to remove, hard to add. 15:39:35 q+ 15:39:36 Summary of arguments for 3.2.1 and F52 15:39:37 https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/170 15:39:48 https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/170 15:40:04 ack r 15:40:10 AWK: Take a look at initial comment. 15:40:41 q+ 15:40:49 q- 15:41:06 ack wa 15:41:08 q+ Its all about whether something is wanted or not 15:41:11 Rydadog. I have an issue to have something to fail. Grabs the focus is a 15:41:18 q+ 15:41:34 q+ is change of focus wanted or not 15:41:51 http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2015/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20150106/F55 15:41:56 q+ to say is change of focus wanted or not 15:42:26 Ryladog has joined #wai-wcag 15:42:47 ack jo 15:42:47 Joshue, you wanted to say is change of focus wanted or not 15:42:56 AWK: Failure F55 would that do it. 15:44:20 ack r 15:44:26 q+ 15:44:33 q+ 15:44:49 Josh: This is the core is user wanted. Er on the side of fear on removal. There is a question mark about how the group describes focus. What to do. This not utteterly wrong. 15:45:26 ack r 15:45:38 s/This is the core is user wanted/Whats at the core here is what the user wants 15:45:55 Rchael: I can see how this does not apply sometimes. 15:46:09 ack ja 15:46:11 q+ 15:46:30 s/This not utteterly wrong/while this may be a little wrong it may not be utterly wrong and does indicate a genuine user issue albeit in an imperfect way. 15:47:02 Katie: This should not be failure. We should not change what people have been doing for a long time, but focus change WCAG\ 15:47:37 q? 15:47:53 ack g 15:47:54 James: The imediate popup, maybe there should be exceptions? Maybe there be clarification. 15:47:54 Setting aside questions of value to the user, my reading is that this case is covered by the wording of 3.2.1 because (a) actions that take place when a page first loads would count as happening when “a component receives focus”, as the document in the viewport is getting focus when the page is loaded, and in UAWG at least the document counted as a component, and (b) opening a new window... 15:47:56 ...can... 15:47:57 ...be a change of context can if the user agent does not allow the user to specify that new top-level viewports should not take focus. 15:49:25 Greg: Looking over the notes that refuted my reading the wording implies that this would be covered. Opening a new can be changing context. There was a good argument but it is not clear from the meeting. 15:49:41 Katie: We should NOT remove this FAILURE at this point in time. We have been accepting this failure for 10 years, we need coverage to fail unexpected chanages of context and focus whne new pages open - where focus get highjacked. Keep this failure as is. Make sure we make this clear for WCAG 2.1 15:50:07 q? 15:50:30 AWK: When the page does not receive focus because the change happens before focus. 15:50:58 s/that refuted my reading/I didn't find anything that refuted my reading/ 15:51:24 After loading a page, the page is focused by the browser. You can see this by using inspect. However, a component is not focused unless # or autofocus, or JS 15:51:24 David: The code is part of the address. So, I cannot see the interruption this failure. 15:51:39 q+ 15:52:04 q+ 15:52:04 JF has joined #wai-wcag 15:52:15 ack wayne 15:52:17 Agree with David 15:52:19 Present+ JF 15:52:23 David: The popup (like collect your email) does not seem to be a failure. 15:52:34 WD: Yes, thats not so bad 15:52:42 WD: There are worse examples. 15:52:59 WD: You may not have an idea of where you are at, but you do have an expectation. 15:53:07 WD: There can be a marked change of context. 15:53:20 WD: We may just need more clarification on techniques. 15:53:23 ack me. 15:53:27 ack me 15:53:43 Josh: David kind of won me around. 15:53:45 Mike_Elledge_ has joined #wai-wcag 15:54:07 AWK: We don't have a consensus. 15:54:15 q+ 15:55:05 David: Will write a reply and identify that the group will look at this issue. 15:55:06 ack ste 15:57:06 Steve: It sounds like more detailed description. I can see how some cases can be acceptable. It could go either way if we changed the context of the failure. 15:57:33 RESOLUTION: No concensus 15:57:46 ACTION: DavidMac D to write response to Chaals on F52 15:57:46 Error finding 'DavidMac'. You can review and register nicknames at . 15:57:50 Topic: Focus order with TabIndex - is it allowed? #182 15:58:17 AWK: Had unanamous response. 15:58:30 RESOLUTION: Accept as proposed. 15:59:10 zakim, next item 15:59:10 agendum 1. "TPAC Registration (https://www.w3.org/2016/09/TPAC/)" taken up [from AWK] 15:59:14 zakim, next item 15:59:14 agendum 1 was just opened, AWK 15:59:20 Zakim, take up item 4 15:59:20 agendum 4. "H91: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2016AprJun/0660.html" taken up [from AWK] 15:59:37 agenda? 16:00:11 KimD has joined #wai-wcag 16:00:22 AWK: There was enough question of how this would look. Show the change table for 91 16:00:30 http://awkawk.github.io/h91.html 16:01:11 ...: Look at the githup h91 wording adding new types to the table. 16:02:03 http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H91.html 16:02:06 ...: If we don't here comment we will sent out a CfC. 16:03:10 John: Why would you disable ffieldset? 16:03:36 AWK: Disable regions conditionally. 16:03:52 https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/fieldset 16:04:59 zakim, take up item 5 16:04:59 agendum 5. "WCAG Techniques and Understanding timeline" taken up [from AWK] 16:05:13 I wrote a response to 170 here. https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/170 16:05:29 zakim, take up item 7 16:05:29 agendum 7. "COGA update (Lisa)" taken up [from AWK] 16:06:59 pls drop in link 16:07:14 Gap analysis: https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/gap-analysis/ 16:07:23 LisaS: We would like feedback: First Working Draft of gap analysis and roadmap. There are more gaps than redmaps we want format comment. 16:07:58 Lisa: Gap summary all issues we have found of what is requierd 16:07:58 s/redmaps/roadmap 16:08:32 WD: So is the roadmap also the gap analysis? 16:08:41 Lisa: Its in one doc, yes. 16:09:20 KimD has joined #wai-wcag 16:09:20 Lisa: Gaps looks issues, the second is looking forward. 16:10:06 Lisa: People don't have to like content, but we'd like feedback. 16:10:45 Lisa: The second document is (section) Issue Papers. 16:10:58 q? 16:11:36 Lisa: Email references links to each issue. Personalization, safety 16:12:17 Proposed semantics: https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/gap-analysis/semantics.html 16:12:28 Lisa: The final document is a proposal for additinal semantics. 16:12:50 Ryladog_ has joined #wai-wcag 16:13:32 ...: This may go in aria, html we don't know. That they would enable to simplify. We know we don't have th answers, but we need feedback. 16:13:54 ...: Publishing will enable moving it along. 16:14:42 AWK: We will send out a survey. Look for show stopper issues. 16:15:08 q? 16:15:42 q+ 16:15:59 ack j 16:16:01 ack me 16:16:15 Lisa: Emphasize this is a first working draft, not a final draft. 16:16:36 +1 to Lisa and the COGA Team - woot woot! 16:17:01 Thanks to Lisa and COGA. 16:18:03 +1 to publish the First Working Draft 16:18:03 MichaelC: Multi documents with many subsections. 16:18:08 q? 16:18:18 zakim, take up item 5 16:18:18 agendum 5. "WCAG Techniques and Understanding timeline" taken up [from AWK] 16:20:28 AWK: We need all changes by end of June for September review; We will comment until August 16:20:58 June 28 - final changes approved 16:21:01 ...: In next few weeks you must get in all comments. 16:21:55 -> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Timelines#Q3_2016_Understanding_and_Notes_publication Timelines for this round 16:22:10 zakim, take up item 6 16:22:10 agendum 6. "WCAG.next timeline" taken up [from AWK] 16:23:25 Q+ to ask if we've settled on June 2018, or if we have flexibility on that date 16:23:27 AWK: For a wcag 2.1 out in two years. June 2018, Proposed Rec, Candidate Rec, Pseudo final call, 16:24:07 q+ 16:24:16 ...: We work back we need SCs, from TFs. Target FPW in March 17 time frame. 16:24:41 s/March 17 time frame/March 2017 time frame 16:24:57 ...: Start in in October, with an Editors Draft. 16:25:22 ack j 16:25:22 JF, you wanted to ask if we've settled on June 2018, or if we have flexibility on that date 16:25:34 AWK; Timeline will be given in wiki. 16:25:45 q? 16:25:59 JF: How did we get the June 2018 16:26:15 q+ 16:26:41 AWK: This is a strawmam timeline 16:27:08 JF: Allign it wih an important date. 16:27:24 KimD has joined #wai-wcag 16:27:26 s/Allign/Align/ 16:28:40 ack lisa 16:29:02 JF: Don't lose sight of this possible 16:29:23 Lisa: What is the date you need success criteria. 16:29:48 +1 16:30:49 Lisa: Dates for SC and supporting materials. It will be easier to do with a clear definition of what is an acceptance creiteria. 16:31:03 s/acceptance/success/ 16:32:01 AWK: There are details that TFs need. It is hard to land if you don't know the ocean. 16:32:32 Q+ to ask for confirmation that newly proposed SC can come from 'anywhere' and are not restricted to current Task Forces. 16:32:53 Lisa: It we start with a working draft can we submit successive criteria. 16:33:17 MichaelC: Refining yes, adding no. 16:34:02 WD: If we do have ideas of what SCs should be we can define that now. 16:34:05 q? 16:34:08 q+ 16:34:10 ack wayne 16:34:12 q- 16:34:25 q+ to say will there be a TF co ordination call this Thurs? 16:34:50 WD: Have we built in time to co-ordinate what the various TFs are doing/giving? 16:36:00 AWK: We've started meeting with TF Co-Chairs and are identifying common issues to remove cotractions. That is on the RADAR. 16:36:52 Bye all! 16:37:10 bye 16:37:11 Lisa: We definitely will have. personalization. 16:37:25 ack j 16:37:25 Joshue, you wanted to say will there be a TF co ordination call this Thurs? 16:37:41 JF: Can SCs come from anywhere? 16:38:03 JF: SCs are not restricted to TFs. 16:38:57 AWK: That is the chairs idea. They may get pushed off to 3.0 16:39:22 MichaelC: We may want a call before the December date. 16:40:04 JF: There might be some fine tuning. Go through the process MAUR. 16:40:05 ack me 16:40:10 ack jf 16:40:10 JF, you wanted to ask for confirmation that newly proposed SC can come from 'anywhere' and are not restricted to current Task Forces. 16:40:41 bye! 16:40:50 zakim, end meeting 16:40:50 I don't understand 'end meeting', AWK 16:41:06 trackbot, end meeting 16:41:06 Zakim, list attendees 16:41:06 As of this point the attendees have been AWK, EricE, Kathy, Laura, jeanne, KimD, alastairc, JF, Joshue108, John_Kirkpwood, SarahH, Makoto, David_MacDonald, Mike_Elledge, 16:41:09 ... John_Kirkwood, Greg_Lowney, kirkwood, MichaelC, Katie, Haritos-Shea, patrick_h_lauke, Elledge, MacDonald, Katie_Haritos-Shea, wayne, jon_avila, marcjohlic, Rachael, BM, Shawn, 16:41:09 ... Lauriat, adam_solomon, Davidmacdonald, Shawn_Lauriat, [Steve, Repsher], JamesNurthen, Steve_Repsher, steverep, Sarah_Swierenga, Steve, Andrew, John 16:41:14 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 16:41:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/07-wai-wcag-minutes.html trackbot 16:41:15 RRSAgent, bye 16:41:15 I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2016/06/07-wai-wcag-actions.rdf : 16:41:15 ACTION: DavidMac D to write response to Chaals on F52 [1] 16:41:15 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/06/07-wai-wcag-irc#T15-57-46