18:42:40 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aapi
18:42:40 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/06/07-aapi-irc
18:42:42 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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18:42:44 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
18:42:44 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
18:42:45 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
18:42:45 <trackbot> Date: 07 June 2016
18:43:06 <clown> chair: Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:43:25 <clown> agenda: this
18:43:31 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1409 (Joanie) Periodic checkin: Add group position interface to ATK/AT-SPI.
18:43:39 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1533 (Joanie) Periodic checkin: Webdriver automated accessibilty testing framework for testing ARIA in ATK/AT-SPI.
18:43:47 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1697 (Joseph/Joanie) MSAA/IA2 mapping of aria-keyshortcuts (final review).
18:43:54 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1696 (Joanie) ATK/AT-SPI and IA2 mappings of aria-keyshortcuts.
18:44:00 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1698 (Joanie) AXAPI mapping of aria-keyshortcuts.
18:44:06 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1706 (Michael/Cynthia) Statement regarding deprecation of UIA Express.
18:44:12 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-2065 (Joseph/Cynthia) Validation of aria-activedescendant.
18:44:20 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1739 (Joanie) Provide all the missing atk/at-spi2 interfaces.
18:44:26 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-2022 (Joseph/Rich) Followup with Alex about IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK (obsolete?)
18:44:33 <clown> agenda+ Triage actions: https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/products/23 (start with ACTION-1707)
18:46:45 <clown> agenda 10 = Triage actions: https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/products/23 start with ACTION-980)
18:46:55 <clown> agenda+ Triage core-aam bugzillas: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=Core%20AAM&product=ARIA
18:47:03 <clown> agenda+ Triage accname-aam bugzillas: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=AccName%20AAM&product=ARIA
18:47:09 <clown> agenda+ Triage accname actions: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/26
18:47:17 <clown> agenda+ be done.
18:52:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/07-aapi-minutes.html clown
19:00:16 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
19:04:29 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:05:31 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aapi
19:05:49 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
19:07:11 <joanie> scribe: joanie
19:10:29 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 1
19:10:29 <Zakim> agendum 1. "ACTION-1409 (Joanie) Periodic checkin: Add group position interface to ATK/AT-SPI." taken up [from clown]
19:10:36 <joanie> JS: These are the two quick reminders.
19:10:36 <clown> action-1409
19:10:36 <trackbot> action-1409 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Monitor progress of bug against atk in gnome's bugzilla requesting new position, level, and other api be added (https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=727453) -- due 2016-04-07 -- OPEN
19:10:36 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1409
19:11:02 <cyns> cyns has joined #aapi
19:12:17 <joanie> JD: Given that we are already exposing these properties and that this action item is not blocking any of our work, let's postpone it a couple of weeks so I can focus on the webdriver work.
19:12:22 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:12:22 <Zakim> agendum 2. "ACTION-1533 (Joanie) Periodic checkin: Webdriver automated accessibilty testing framework for testing ARIA in ATK/AT-SPI." taken up [from clown]
19:12:29 <clown> action-1533?
19:12:29 <trackbot> action-1533 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Implement Webdriver automated accessibilty testing framework for testing ARIA in ATK/AT-SPI -- due 2016-05-24 -- OPEN
19:12:29 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1533
19:12:36 <joanie> JS: This is your other periodic check-in.
19:13:04 <joanie> JD: I hope to start on this tomorrow. For real.
19:13:12 <joanie> Zakim, close this item
19:13:12 <Zakim> agendum 2 closed
19:13:13 <Zakim> I see 12 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
19:13:13 <Zakim> 3. ACTION-1697 (Joseph/Joanie) MSAA/IA2 mapping of aria-keyshortcuts (final review). [from clown]
19:13:15 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:13:15 <Zakim> agendum 3. "ACTION-1697 (Joseph/Joanie) MSAA/IA2 mapping of aria-keyshortcuts (final review)." taken up [from clown]
19:13:33 <clown> action-1697
19:13:33 <trackbot> action-1697 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Propose MSAA+IA2 mapping of aria-kbdshortcuts -- due 2016-06-07 -- CLOSED
19:13:34 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1697
19:13:47 <joanie> JS: This is the change (link above) for the MSAA/IA2 mapping for aria-keyshortcuts.
19:13:57 <joanie> JS: We discussed this last week.
19:14:02 <joanie> JS: I made the changes.
19:14:32 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ariaKeyshortcuts
19:14:38 <joanie> s/(link above)//
19:15:06 <joanie> JS: I filled out the first ell.
19:15:11 <joanie> JS: And I've already closed the action.
19:15:18 <joanie> JS: But just to be sure, any objections?
19:16:05 <joanie> JS: This is consistent with the other MSAA property names in the Core AAM.
19:16:23 <joanie> JS: Hearing no objections, I'll keep this closed.
19:16:28 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:16:28 <Zakim> agendum 4. "ACTION-1696 (Joanie) ATK/AT-SPI and IA2 mappings of aria-keyshortcuts." taken up [from clown]
19:16:38 <clown> action-1696
19:16:38 <trackbot> action-1696 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Propose ATK/AT-SPI mapping of aria-kbdshortcuts -- due 2016-06-07 -- OPEN
19:16:38 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1696
19:17:12 <joanie> JS: This is to update the progress on aria-keyshortcuts for ATK/AT-SPI2.
19:17:25 <joanie> JD: I sent a couple of emails to Alex Surkov.
19:17:31 <joanie> JD: And CCed Joseph.
19:18:01 <clown> scribenick: clown
19:18:27 <clown> JD:  Reason I sent to Alex and Joseph, the IA2 mappings are coming from MSAA.
19:18:41 <clown> JD: There is not parallilsm in this case with ATK
19:18:57 <clown> s/parallilsm/parallelism/
19:19:09 <clown> JD:  There just in no good ATK mapping.
19:19:28 <clown> JD:  We don't have the 'accXXX' property like MSAA does.
19:19:45 <clown> JD:  Other place to map in through the Action Interface.
19:20:01 <clown> JD:  But, that has the problem that, in this case, there is no action
19:20:18 <clown> JD:  Orca should not be able to invoke the Action in this case.
19:20:44 <clown> JD:  The other possibility is to put in an object attribute.
19:21:04 <clown> JD:  But, I don't care, so I thought I would ask Alex, and whatever he approves of.
19:21:19 <clown> JD:  He thought is was ok to use ATK Action.
19:21:34 <clown> JD:  And, that AT shouldn't worry since the action is up to the author.
19:21:58 <clown> JD:  I replied, but that is the problem:  Orca can't tell which Actions are invokable, and which are not.
19:22:56 <clown> JD:  If I invoke an aria-keyshortcuts  action, then the user agent needs to simulate a keystroke action for that case.
19:24:09 <clown> JD: It's already exposed as an object attribute.  The worst case scenario is that it is already done.
19:24:14 <clown> JD:  Now, that I'm reading the spec close, I'm not sure what it really means.
19:24:45 <joanie> scribe: joanie
19:24:49 <clown> JD:  It's correct that ATs should not be able to invoke the Action even by synthesizing keyboard events.
19:25:22 <clown> scribenick:  clown
19:25:32 <clown> CS:  We are changing all these to a click, since that bubbles.
19:25:43 <clown> JD:  It's not clear to me that it's always a click.
19:26:22 <clown> JD:  I also don't see that there can only be one.  There might be multiple keystrokes.
19:26:41 <clown> JD:  I don't see that it's limited to "activate".  It might also be "focus".
19:27:08 <clown> JD:  Use case:  I am light sensitive.  If the page is bright, it really bothers me.
19:27:43 <clown> JD: What if there is a keyboard shortcut that inverses the brightness.
19:27:51 <clown> JD:  Invoking the action would be bad.
19:28:11 <clown> CS:  I'm looking more closesly, and we actually do not map aria-keyshortcuts to a click.
19:28:21 <clown> CS:  I was thinking of something else.
19:28:43 <clown> JD:  Okay, I think the only thing the AT should do is pass the information to the user.
19:29:28 <clown> CS: I think the idea is that this describes stuff defined in script, and the user agent does not handle it.
19:29:49 <clown> CS: So, aria-keyshorts is only valid if the author has written the script.
19:30:11 <clown> JD:  In that case, then the user agent should not simulate the key strokes.
19:30:53 <clown> CS:  I have always thought that it's not awful if the user agent handled it, but, right now, that's not how aria-keyshortcuts work.
19:32:20 <clown> JD:  I need something in the Action inteface that clearly indicates that the AT cannot invoke these kinds of actions.
19:32:24 <joanie> scribe: joanie
19:32:38 <joanie> JS: For my part, I followed the discussion you had with Alex.
19:32:47 <joanie> JS: I tend to agree with you, Joanie.
19:33:03 <joanie> JS: Ideally, I think you need a property like MSAA/IA2 has.
19:33:10 <joanie> JS: Everything else feels hacky to me.
19:33:33 <joanie> JS: Failing that, a means to identify that the AtkAction is not invokable makes sense.
19:34:20 <joanie> JS: Reading your discussion with Alex, it occurred to me that if they are just descriptive, could they be exposed as a description.
19:35:00 <joanie> CS: There is no string like in UIA and MSAA/IA2?
19:35:10 <joanie> JS: There's not in ATK/AT-SPI2.
19:35:37 <joanie> CS: Does Orca read descriptions by default, or does the user have to do something?
19:36:09 <joanie> JD: Orca presents descriptions automatically.
19:36:43 <joanie> CS: We don't automatically present it on the assumption that it's long.
19:38:15 <joanie> JD: The problem is that ATs should be able to provide the shortcut as the shortcut when asked for by the user and/or in accordance to user preferences.
19:38:33 <joanie> JD: In order for ATs to be able to do that, ATs need to know definitively that something is a shortcut.
19:38:44 <joanie> JD: For this reason, placing it in a description won't work.
19:40:38 <joanie> JS: If we make it a desktop app and Orca sees the action and invokes it, who does the actual work?
19:40:50 <joanie> JD: The app or toolkit. Usually the toolkit (e.g. Gtk+)
19:41:13 <joanie> JS: If we use AtkAction with a no-op value, is there a chance that down the line ATK will have an accKeyShortcuts property?
19:41:25 <joanie> JD: Anything is possible.
19:44:57 <joanie> JD + JS: (Discussion as to why this may or may not be doable)
19:51:53 <joanie> JS: What's the next step?
19:52:29 <joanie> JD: Alex needs to reply to Joanie and then we'll proceed.
19:52:38 <joanie> JS: Change the due date?
19:52:42 <joanie> JD: One week please.
19:53:11 <joanie> JD: And it's already exposed via object attribute.
19:53:16 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:53:16 <Zakim> agendum 5. "ACTION-1698 (Joanie) AXAPI mapping of aria-keyshortcuts." taken up [from clown]
19:53:25 <joanie> JD: Not done yet
19:53:35 <clown> action-1698
19:53:35 <trackbot> action-1698 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Propose AXAPI mapping of aria-kbdshortcuts -- due 2016-06-07 -- OPEN
19:53:35 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1698
19:53:39 <joanie> JD: I am going to deal with that when I implement it in WebKitGtk.
19:53:54 <joanie> JD: As a result, I need to know what the mappings are.
19:54:00 <joanie> JD: Give me another week please.
19:54:18 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:54:18 <Zakim> agendum 6. "ACTION-1706 (Michael/Cynthia) Statement regarding deprecation of UIA Express." taken up [from clown]
19:54:29 <clown> action-1706?
19:54:29 <trackbot> action-1706 -- Michael Cooper to Compose a statement regarding the "deprecation" of uia express mappings in the core-aam, referencing the aria 1.0 mapping spec. -- due 2016-06-07 -- PENDINGREVIEW
19:54:29 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1706
19:54:43 <joanie> JS: I noticed, Cynthia, that you did something with the deprecation of UIA express and then assigned it to Michael.
19:54:49 <joanie> JS: Did you mean to?
19:55:10 <joanie> CS: I set it to PENDINGREVIEW but wasn't sure what to do to cause it to be reviewed.
19:55:26 <joanie> JS: I'll assign it to me.
19:55:35 <joanie> CS: I doubt this will be controversial.
19:56:01 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/Action-1706/core-aam/core-aam.html#intro_aapi
19:56:06 <joanie> JS: The URL is above.
19:56:22 <joanie> JS: (Reads the sentence)
19:56:44 <clown> The WAI-ARIA 1.0 User Agent Implementation Guide included mappings for UIA Express, also known as IAccessibleEx, which was implemented in Microsoft Internet Explorer 8.0 - 11. New implementations are strongly encouraged to use User Interface Automation instead.
19:57:13 <joanie> JS: I'm okay with that.
19:57:20 <joanie> JS: Is there anything else?
19:57:23 <joanie> CS: Just that.
19:57:26 <joanie> JS: Thoughts?
19:57:30 <joanie> BG: Not really.
19:57:40 <joanie> CS: I didn't expect it to be controversial.
19:57:47 <joanie> CS: I've not heard back from Alex Surkov.
19:57:57 <joanie> JS: I'll find time to pull it in or merge it in.
19:58:42 <joanie> JS: It currently says you can merge it.
19:59:00 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:59:00 <Zakim> agendum 7. "ACTION-2065 (Joseph/Cynthia) Validation of aria-activedescendant." taken up [from clown]
19:59:10 <joanie> agenda?
19:59:21 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 8
19:59:21 <Zakim> agendum 8. "ACTION-1739 (Joanie) Provide all the missing atk/at-spi2 interfaces." taken up [from clown]
19:59:27 <joanie> action-1739
19:59:27 <trackbot> action-1739 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Provide all the missing atk/at-spi2 interfaces for joseph -- due 2015-11-17 -- OPEN
19:59:27 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1739
20:03:53 <joanie> JD: I've added a list in the comment of the action.
20:05:46 <joanie> JS: I'll assign this to myself and ask you, Joanie, any questions that come up.
20:07:21 <joanie> JS: I don't know what will happen since none of this was in the spec up to this point.
20:07:27 <joanie> JS: In other words, in terms of testing.
20:07:56 <joanie> JD: For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure what I wrote is what Gecko already does.
20:08:18 <joanie> JD: So I don't think I'm in danger of making any user agent non-compliant.
20:08:31 <joanie> JD: Though it might(?) require testing.
20:13:03 <joanie> Zakim, part
20:13:03 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Joanmarie_Diggs, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Bryan_Garaventa
20:13:03 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
20:13:11 <joanie> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:13:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/07-aapi-minutes.html joanie
20:13:37 <joanie> present+ Cynthia_Shelly
20:13:53 <joanie> regrets+ Richard_Schwerdtfeger
20:13:58 <joanie> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:13:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/07-aapi-minutes.html joanie
20:15:20 <joanie> scribeOptions: -final
20:15:27 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop