IRC log of dpub on 2016-06-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:46:22 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
14:46:24 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:46:24 [Zakim]
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14:46:26 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be dpub
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ok, trackbot
14:46:27 [trackbot]
Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
14:46:27 [trackbot]
Date: 06 June 2016
14:46:33 [ivan]
Chair: Tzviya
14:47:20 [ivan]
14:47:32 [ivan]
ivan has changed the topic to: Agenda:
14:47:59 [ivan]
Regrets: Tim, Peter, NickB
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14:58:18 [dauwhe]
present+ dauwhe
14:58:39 [tzviya]
present+ Tzviya
14:58:45 [cmaden2]
present+ Chris_Maden
14:58:50 [ivan]
present+ ivan
14:58:55 [tzviya]
14:59:21 [ivan]
present+ george
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present+ Deborah_Kaplan
14:59:56 [laudrain]
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15:00:11 [tzviya]
chair: tzviya
15:00:21 [tzviya]
regrets+ Markus
15:00:21 [laudrain]
present+ Luc
15:00:57 [George]
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15:01:02 [rdeltour]
15:01:14 [Avneesh]
present+ Avneesh
15:01:25 [George]
Present George
15:01:27 [ivan]
zakim, pick a victim
15:01:27 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Chris_Maden
15:01:32 [astearns]
present+ astearns
15:01:50 [HeatherF]
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15:01:51 [ShaneM]
present+ ShaneM
15:02:25 [tzviya]
scribe: cmaden2
15:02:28 [ivan]
scribenick: cmaden2
15:02:48 [HeatherF]
present+ Heather_Flanagan
15:02:58 [Bill_Kasdorf]
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15:03:06 [cmaden2]
tzviya: approving previous minutes
15:03:08 [Bill_Kasdorf]
present+ Bill_Kasdorf
15:03:12 [tzviya]
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15:03:42 [cmaden2]
tzviya: was meeting with chaals and idpf merger. no objection; minutes approed.
15:03:46 [cmaden2]
15:03:55 [bjdmeest]
Present+ Ben_De_Meester
15:03:59 [ivan]
Topic: action from last meeting
15:04:36 [cmaden2]
tzviya: action items from last meeting. json vs. xml/zip manifest. dave was going to file an issue.
15:04:50 [cmaden2]
tzviya: dave is sitting right next to me, giving me a dirty look. issue not filed yet.
15:05:15 [tzviya]
15:05:15 [cmaden2]
dave: lots to be done; first thing, asking about using manifest *as* manifest. has scope, but not enumeration of files.
15:05:41 [cmaden2]
??: relates to question of what a manifest is. (who was speaking?)
15:05:53 [tzviya]
15:05:59 [ivan]
15:06:55 [HeatherF]
@NickRuffilo can you go on mute?
15:07:00 [cmaden2]
tzviya: extending app manifest
15:07:24 [Jean_K]
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15:07:26 [cmaden2]
ivan: there is also an agenda item for that, postpone?
15:07:38 [cmaden2]
tzviya: good idea. app manifest postponed.
15:07:49 [cmaden2]
tzviya: discussion of packaging in app manifest issue tracker.
15:08:13 [cmaden2]
tzviya: issue tracker deals mostly with launching apps, no mention of packaging. could it point to something?
15:08:37 [tzviya]
15:08:45 [dauwhe]
15:09:16 [cmaden2]
ivan: app manifest does not enumerate content, but has more packaged features
15:09:50 [cmaden2]
dave: while rummaging around the web, mozilla talks about a web app with a json manifest at the top level of a zip, very similar
15:09:58 [cmaden2]
dave: not sure how similar, though.
15:10:28 [ivan]
Topic: use case on manifests
15:10:30 [cmaden2]
tzviya: we need to flesh out use cases before we file issues against app manifest. let’s move on to use cases.
15:10:49 [HeatherF]
15:10:51 [cmaden2]
tzviya: virtual f2f was successful in fleshing out use cases.
15:11:04 [cmaden2]
tzviya: let’s look at where we are with manifest use cases.
15:11:17 [ivan]
Regrets+ Markus
15:11:23 [tzviya]
15:12:09 [cmaden2]
tzviya: most important at this point, defining what the manifest is.
15:12:16 [tzviya]
15:12:51 [ivan]
15:13:02 [cmaden2]
dave: package is single resource location that defines all the necessary components; manifest defines components.
15:13:05 [dauwhe]
15:13:11 [cmaden2]
??: is it a description or an identification?
15:13:22 [ivan]
15:13:31 [tzviya]
15:13:36 [Jean_K]
15:13:39 [tzviya]
ack iv
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15:13:45 [cmaden2]
nick_ruffilo: it is a description. we want to say more than just here are the files. here’s *why* they are here (e.g. reading order)
15:13:52 [laudrain]
15:14:24 [Bill_Kasdorf]
+1 to manifest for publication, not [just] for package
15:14:29 [cmaden2]
ivan: manifest for the publication, not for the package. has a role to play in a publication even without a package.
15:14:32 [tzviya]
ack da
15:15:06 [cmaden2]
dave: description of files isn’t a use case. what actions to we need to do, which need information to be carried out?
15:15:40 [cmaden2]
dave: service workers can take action, but need to be told where files are.
15:15:45 [ivan]
+1 to dave
15:16:00 [tzviya]
ack Je
15:16:04 [ivan]
15:16:36 [cmaden2]
jean_k: idpf manifest was about packaging. nav was the double-purpose thing providing list of content, chrome.
15:16:55 [cmaden2]
jean_k: has anyone thought about double-purposing manifest within pwp?
15:17:00 [cmaden2]
tzviya: extensively.
15:17:04 [cmaden2]
jean_k: are we sure?
15:17:10 [laudrain]
15:17:17 [cmaden2]
tzviya: for use cases, don’t need to solve that.
15:17:23 [tzviya]
ack iv
15:18:14 [cmaden2]
ivan: [and then a truck drove by] follow up on what dave said; what are the files i want to put online? but also characterization of those files.
15:18:16 [tzviya]
15:18:42 [cmaden2]
15:18:58 [tzviya]
ack la
15:19:00 [cmaden2]
ivan: a list, plus a characterization of files, so i can make a decision of what i need offline.
15:19:40 [tzviya]
15:20:02 [Bill_Kasdorf]
15:20:25 [cmaden2]
laudrain: in terms of manifest, it’s a question of actions. use cases about distributing… a publication means an assembled document, a package of well-prepared documents, whether internal or external, they constitute the set of items… first action is to prepare the assembly for distribution, manifest is key to explain what we wish to do
15:21:12 [tzviya]
ack bi
15:21:12 [cmaden2]
laudrain: actions on the items needs to be guided by some kind of description, i.e., manifest
15:21:14 [ivan]
15:21:57 [cmaden2]
bill_kasdorf: purpose of manifest is to say, here are resources required by this publication, how they can be obtained. some metadata (e.g. mime type) can be conveyed by the thing, manifest doesn’t need to replicate.
15:21:59 [tzviya]
ack iv
15:22:11 [George]
15:23:09 [HeatherF]
15:23:14 [cmaden2]
ivan: currently, document has separate manifest and document sections. in fact, having manifest is raised by other use cases (collection of resources). use-cases doc could be restructured, but not sure how. maybe heather has a clear idea?
15:23:37 [tzviya]
ack ge
15:23:41 [cmaden2]
tzviya: added use case, list of objects i must access whether on- or offline
15:24:12 [cmaden2]
george: streaming is a use case. client needs to know what pieces they need first
15:24:16 [tzviya]
ack he
15:24:56 [cmaden2]
heatherf: like the idea of focusing on manifest to develop use cases, rather than saying it’s a requirement. mailing list had debate about whether manifest was even required.
15:25:08 [ShaneM]
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15:25:18 [cmaden2]
tzviya: best to start with new, simple requirements for manifest.
15:25:21 [dauwhe]
15:25:31 [cmaden2]
\me hears a lawnmower starting up, runs for the basement
15:26:09 [HeatherF]
15:26:12 [HeatherF]
15:26:40 [cmaden2]
ivan: need to see how requirements can be integrated into something like a manifest.
15:26:41 [tzviya]
ack hea
15:26:44 [laudrain]
the web isn’t published at a certain date
15:27:23 [Jean_K]
The parakeet had much to contribute
15:27:30 [cmaden2]
tzviya: ivan, can you clarify?
15:28:16 [cmaden2]
ivan: if i look at use-cases doc, §7 is manifests; manifests comes from the document, as it was one of the use cases. most use cases require a manifest. manifest is more fundamental than one section.
15:28:17 [HeatherF]
15:28:39 [tzviya]
ack he
15:28:42 [cmaden2]
tzviya: maybe manifest needs to be fundamental, at the start?
15:28:46 [Jean_K]
15:28:59 [cmaden2]
heatherf: was going to suggest same thing, put manifest in fundamentals
15:29:14 [ivan]
15:29:18 [tzviya]
ack iv
15:29:19 [cmaden2]
tzviya: heatherf has probably already made this change.
15:29:48 [Jean_K]
15:29:49 [cmaden2]
ivan: next use case is loads of metadata about the publication
15:29:53 [tzviya]
ack jea
15:30:10 [cmaden2]
jean_k: why don’t we have a fundamental use case about metadata?
15:30:36 [laudrain]
15:30:40 [tzviya]
ack la
15:30:41 [cmaden2]
jean_k: in edupub, metadata just as important as manifest
15:31:13 [rdeltour]
15:31:33 [Jean_K]
metadata manifest in a manifest... How very meta.
15:32:12 [cmaden2]
laudrain: metadata is fundamental, agreed. difference between web and pwp is web isn’t offline. web isn’t created at a certain date. manifest has to solve specific preparation of data made available offline at a certain date.
15:32:33 [tzviya]
ack rd
15:32:52 [cmaden2]
tzviya: keep in mind that use cases are about portability; metadata does or does not come from those use cases
15:33:25 [tzviya]
rdeltour: we need to be careful when discussing metada
15:33:28 [Jean_K]
15:34:00 [tzviya]
...title or cover may be crucial to the publication, but may not be a use case that is relevant
15:34:01 [cmaden2]
jean_k: rights and permissions also needs to be part of the offline-available information
15:34:02 [laudrain]
15:34:04 [tzviya]
ack jean
15:34:52 [cmaden2]
ivan: is this enough input for heatherf and romain to update the document?
15:34:57 [HeatherF]
15:35:01 [tzviya]
ack he
15:35:45 [cmaden2]
heatherf: i can come up with basic use cases; if anyone has more intrinsically interesting ones, would be appreciated.
15:36:13 [HeatherF]
What I have for metadata so far:
15:36:18 [cmaden2]
tzviya: we need to be mindful; we talked about a basic manifest use case, and now we’re in metadata. metadata use cases need to be written up, but should be distinct from manifest.
15:36:22 [HeatherF]
As a reading system, I need descriptions about the publication that travel with the publication whether online or offline. For example: author, title, size, rights and permissions, accessibility, multimedia details.
15:36:55 [HeatherF]
We can definitely break it up - they are just examples
15:37:04 [cmaden2]
tzviya: e.g., authorship can be whole or partial.
15:37:20 [cmaden2]
tzviya: so let’s start with manifest
15:38:26 [cmaden2]
ivan: basic manifest item, list of resources, author, title, these belong to the same category in some sense, and so are metadata about the publication.
15:39:05 [cmaden2]
ivan: whether some go into the manifest as json, or some into turtle files, that is secondary. fundamental is that a pwp needs knowledge about a bunch of resources, not just a list.
15:39:44 [cmaden2]
george: manifest is the bootstrap, isn’t it?
15:40:03 [cmaden2]
tzviya: it is in epub; pwp doesn’t have to work the same way.
15:40:44 [dauwhe]
scribenick: dauwhe
15:41:05 [dauwhe]
tzviya: @manifest has something called the start member
15:41:19 [dauwhe]
... but that's different than what's in epub
15:41:35 [rdeltour]
FYI, the Web App Manifest UC&R:
15:41:51 [dauwhe]
... manifest can be the thing that indicates where to start, but it may look different than in epub
15:41:53 [ivan]
15:41:59 [tzviya]
ack iv
15:42:10 [dauwhe]
ivan: I come back to my previous point, which includes what George said
15:42:20 [dauwhe]
... one of the fundamental use cases (on a high level)
15:42:35 [dauwhe]
... if we have pwp, we must have a lot of data available for the processing
15:42:51 [dauwhe]
... that gives a structure for a document... the fundamental thing is the list of resources
15:42:57 [dauwhe]
... we need use cases about additional data
15:43:18 [dauwhe]
... I won't even use the word manifest, because it reminds us of json or xml, which may be premature
15:44:11 [tzviya]
dauwhe: one of the key things in a publication is that there is an enumeration that defines what is in the publication and what is not
15:44:15 [laudrain]
15:44:53 [dauwhe]
ivan: what is and what isn't in the publication
15:44:59 [ShaneM_]
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15:45:08 [dauwhe]
... what is necessary for the whole publication to be published is not only the list of resources
15:45:31 [dauwhe]
tzviya: we have 15 more minutes and we have the basic use case
15:45:49 [dauwhe]
... we get into some scenarios in the other use cases, where we need to know what's in and out
15:46:07 [dauwhe]
... we don't have basic examples of "i'm publishing a book/journal, and processing it requires xyz"
15:46:17 [dauwhe]
... should we talk about that now? assign it as homework?
15:46:24 [dauwhe]
NickRuffilo: defining them now would be good
15:46:45 [dauwhe]
tzviya: nick, let's write a use case!
15:47:46 [dauwhe]
dauwhe: as a reading system, I need to know if I support media-type foo
15:48:01 [dauwhe]
NickRuffilo: as a reading system i need to order in which files are displayed
15:48:12 [dauwhe]
ivan: as a reading system i need to know size of resources
15:48:24 [dauwhe]
Jean_K: i need to know if i'm online or offline
15:48:44 [dauwhe]
NickRuffilo: do we need to know the state, or what to do when in the state?
15:48:51 [dauwhe]
Jean_K: it's a separate question
15:49:15 [dauwhe]
tzviya: AARS, I need to know which files are "essential" for the user to percieve the content
15:50:04 [dauwhe]
rdeltour: I need to know name and cover image to display publication on shelf
15:50:27 [dauwhe]
Bill M: AARS, I need to know...
15:50:28 [ivan]
bill: I need to have access to the resource "efficiently"
15:50:37 [dauwhe]
... without having to inspect every file...
15:50:56 [dauwhe]
... but it's more efficient to not have to parse all the content
15:51:10 [dauwhe]
15:51:31 [dauwhe]
Darth Vader: I need to know what the next file is
15:52:01 [laudrain]
s/Darth Vader/Luc/
15:52:11 [dauwhe]
Avneesh: I need to know if content requires special processing, such as MathML
15:52:33 [laudrain]
Luc: I need to know what the next file is the next one
15:52:33 [dauwhe]
ivan: I need to know if I have the right to use a resource offline
15:52:45 [tzviya]
15:52:47 [HeatherF]
Already typed in
15:53:20 [dauwhe]
george: i need to know if there are extraneous files in the publication
15:53:34 [dauwhe]
... if it's not in the manifest you are processing at your own risk
15:53:58 [dauwhe]
NickRuffilo: I want to make sure when I recreate the package it's complete
15:54:29 [dauwhe]
george: some readings systems use that mech to update
15:54:51 [dauwhe]
ShaneM: AARS I want to know that the resources are unaltered
15:54:59 [Jean_K]
15:55:07 [dauwhe]
tzviya: AARS I want to know if the resources are intentionally updated
15:55:15 [dauwhe]
ivan: I want to know why
15:55:20 [dauwhe]
rdeltour: I want to know the origin
15:55:29 [dauwhe]
George: I want to know if there's a newer version available
15:55:50 [HeatherF]
15:55:55 [dauwhe]
tzviya: five minutes to go. we need ten more use cases and we'll get a matching grant
15:55:57 [ShaneM]
What about annotations?
15:56:08 [HeatherF]
15:56:12 [dauwhe]
tzviya: we don't have time to go into detail about bugs for web app manifest
15:56:22 [tzviya]
ack he
15:56:22 [dauwhe]
... we have enough info to have a discussion
15:56:38 [dauwhe]
HeatherF: four minutes left, maybe a quick discussion on the next virtual meeting?
15:56:52 [HeatherF]
And that will give me time to update the use case doc on github
15:56:58 [dauwhe]
tzviya: to answer shane's question, yes, we want to allow for annotations
15:57:09 [dauwhe]
... there is a use case for portability of annotations
15:57:22 [dauwhe]
... so we want to allow annotations and the portability of annotations
15:57:48 [dauwhe]
ivan: is the drawing physical or virtual?
15:57:49 [Jean_K]
15:57:54 [dauwhe]
dauwhe: both napkin and keynote
15:58:02 [tzviya]
ack j
15:58:05 [dauwhe]
tzviya: three minutes on the virtual f2f
15:58:09 [HeatherF]
Doc has been merged on github. Reload
15:58:30 [dauwhe]
... ivan, markus, and I talked with heather about a virtual f2f, we felt it was very helpful
15:58:38 [dauwhe]
... we need to schedule around ietf meetings
15:58:42 [HeatherF]
There's irony in t here somewhere
15:58:44 [dauwhe]
... week of 20 june or 4 july
15:58:53 [laudrain]
15:59:01 [dauwhe]
... will people be around?
15:59:02 [HeatherF]
Preference from me for the week of 20 June if we can
15:59:05 [dauwhe]
NickRuffilo: I'll be here
15:59:06 [HeatherF]
I'll still be mostly on EU time
15:59:25 [HeatherF]
I can do the July date as well
15:59:30 [dauwhe]
tzviya: another four hour session, or maybe shorter?
15:59:30 [laudrain]
Make a Doodle?
15:59:35 [ShaneM]
I am not available the week of the 4th nor the week before
15:59:54 [dauwhe]
tzviya: we'll send out a poll
16:00:12 [dauwhe]
... we're targeting the week of 20 june or 4 july
16:00:19 [HeatherF]
16:00:26 [dauwhe]
... thanks everyone
16:00:29 [HeatherF]
Thanks all! I'm off to the orthodontist.
16:00:31 [dauwhe]
... buh-bye
16:00:35 [laudrain]
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16:00:44 [cmaden2]
cmaden2 has left #dpub
16:00:55 [ivan]
zakim, who is here?
16:00:55 [Zakim]
Present: dauwhe, Tzviya, Chris_Maden, ivan, george, Deborah_Kaplan, Luc, rdeltour, Avneesh, astearns, ShaneM, Heather_Flanagan, Bill_Kasdorf, Ben_De_Meester
16:00:58 [Zakim]
On IRC I see ShaneM_, ShaneM, Jean_K, HeatherF, George, dkaplan3, Avneesh, Zakim, RRSAgent, dauwhe, darobin, tzviya, skk, Karen, chaals, ivan, rego, liam, bigbluehat, csarven,
16:00:58 [Zakim]
... trackbot, plinss, iank_, nikos, astearns
16:01:08 [ivan]
Present+ Michael_Miller
16:01:36 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:01:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ivan
16:01:52 [ivan]
trackbot, end telcon
16:01:52 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
16:01:53 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been dauwhe, Tzviya, Chris_Maden, ivan, george, Deborah_Kaplan, Luc, rdeltour, Avneesh, astearns, ShaneM, Heather_Flanagan, Bill_Kasdorf,
16:01:55 [Zakim]
... Ben_De_Meester, Michael_Miller
16:02:00 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:02:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
16:02:01 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
16:02:01 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items