20:29:09 RRSAgent has joined #svg 20:29:09 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/06/02-svg-irc 20:29:11 RRSAgent, make logs public 20:29:13 Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG 20:29:13 ok, trackbot 20:29:14 Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference 20:29:14 Date: 02 June 2016 20:29:19 Chair: nikos 20:29:24 present+ nikos 20:29:44 Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2016Jun/0000.html 20:30:05 present+ AmeliaBR 20:30:49 present+ shepazu 20:31:32 present+ stakagi 20:31:53 present+ Tav 20:31:59 hello 20:32:21 scribe: Nikos 20:32:42 scribenick: nikos 20:32:48 Topic: Switch and conditional processing issues 20:33:29 https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/issues/138 20:33:51 AmeliaBR: There's one issue as a summary, with lots of specific issues hanging off that 20:33:56 Summary: https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/issues/139 20:34:30 switch originally had three different attributes for controlling when you switch different features 20:35:09 ... one is requiredExtensions, think the idea was that if somebody somewhere in some other spec or software defined an extension, then in svg we could define something that should only be rendered if that was supported 20:35:18 ... it doesn't seem to be well used 20:35:22 ... but some things would be useful to define 20:35:29 ... like whether this svg ua can render html 20:35:40 ... have a non standard extension in FireFox that takes the xml namespace 20:35:54 ... not defined in the standard anywhere, and not supported by other browsers 20:36:04 ... think it would be useful to have some way of saying what type of documents this UA supports 20:36:14 ... or suggest what type of image file can you embed? 20:37:10 nikos: I think I'd like to defer this. 20:37:14 ...can we put this in the integration spec? 20:37:25 ... or another spec that's just a list of supported extensions? 20:37:57 ... I'm supportive of capturing the extensions that are used by user agents so we can get interop 20:38:04 shepazu: I thought integration spec too 20:38:19 AmeliaBR: SVG 2 just defines the content as a url and doesn't have requirements beyond that 20:39:04 RESOLUTION: SVG WG will list details of common extensions and supported values for the requiredExtensions attribute in the integration spec 20:39:58 nikos: Would it be better to just support the picture element rather than image formats in switch? 20:40:07 AmeliaBR: That's not as backwards compatible as switch 20:40:33 ... right now, you could get an image if you used switch so you would get a sensible format 20:40:47 shepazu: Is switch supported in illustrator or Inkscape? 20:41:01 AmeliaBR: it's supported in rendering afaik but you can't generate it 20:41:13 Tav: I'm not 100% sure, I know we parse it but not sure what we do with it 20:41:23 ... think there are comments saying we should do something or other with it 20:41:48 shepazu: When I think about SVG, there's a number of places, I think of authoring tools and browsers primarily 20:42:02 ... there's other environments, but I don't expect they're using switch at all 20:42:17 ... so when you say it's not supported, I think it would be trivial to do this in an svg + html context 20:42:38 ... and since modern browsers support html5, I wonder what part of the ecosystem wouldn't support picture? 20:42:48 AmeliaBR: it's not supported right now for svg 20:42:57 Tav: not supported by Inkscape or Illustrator 20:43:11 shepazu: I think if we are going to change behaviour, we should aim towards html rather than going alone 20:43:28 AmeliaBR: it's also relevant to foreignObject, to define what time of content should be supported 20:44:38 shepazu: my position is generally to not add new features or not extend less well supported features of SVG 20:44:43 nikos: Agree 20:45:21 Topic: systemLanguage attribute 20:45:23 https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/issues/136 20:45:35 AmeliaBR: There's a bit of a limitation in how systemLanguage is defined 20:45:40 ... assumes users only have one preferred language 20:45:48 ... or that all options are equal 20:46:06 ... this can be problematic if users have for example preferred languages, but will accept English if need be 20:46:18 ... SMIL in later versions introduced an attribute that allows the user agent to be smarter 20:46:28 ... hasn't been adopted into svg 20:46:32 ... is supported in FireFox 20:46:42 ... though there's HTML parsing issues because it's a mixed case attribute 20:46:57 ... my pref is to spec so smart language matching is the default 20:47:10 ... and not worry about the attribute, because I don't see when you'd want the other behaviour 20:48:07 nikos: I support this. Language choice is one of the more useful uses of switch 20:48:19 ... it's defined already in another spec so we can just reference it 20:48:32 ... are there any issues changing the default behaviour? 20:48:52 AmeliaBR: are people leaning towards adding the reoder attribute? or define language matching? 20:48:56 Tav: the latter 20:49:14 AmeliaBR: In FireFox you have to specifically allow reorder, the default is the old behaviour 20:49:38 shepazu: as long as we can get implementers, I like the second option 20:51:05 RESOLUTION: Language selection order for systemLanguage attribute will follow allowReorder=true by default 20:51:52 ACTION: shepazu to have a go at changing systemLanguage to allowReorder by default 20:51:52 Created ACTION-3844 - Have a go at changing systemlanguage to allowreorder by default [on Doug Schepers - due 2016-06-09]. 20:52:13 shepazu: would be best to include inline rather than reference SMIL 20:52:49 Topic: no title/desc in switch 20:52:53 AmeliaBR: think this is just editorial 20:53:16 ... title and desc interfere with the selection of child elements so we resolved to remove them from the content model 20:53:52 Topic: Switch with non rendered (audio and visual ) content 20:54:06 ... There was a previous resolution that switch doesn't affect script and style 20:54:15 ... we had an issue raised about how it interacts with audio and video 20:54:30 ... my suggestion was that it should be treated as if audio and video are display:none 20:54:37 ... which means the audio and video don't play 20:55:29 nikos: I agree with that behaviour. Was trying to find where in HTML5 it says audio and video don't play on display none 20:56:04 ... if anyone knows where that is, drop a link in the issue please 20:56:32 nikos: There was the question of whether resources should be loaded at all. But they probably have to, because they can be accessed through the DOM. It's like images that are display:none 20:57:02 Topic: removal of requiredFeatures 20:57:25 In SVG 1.1 we had requiredFeatures that had a defined list or category of features that svg would support 20:57:28 ... that has been removed from SVG 2 20:57:47 ... browsers implement it in a way where they didn't behave properly if you put in something that wasn't recognised 20:57:59 ... I was wondering whether it might make sense to add back in as a deprecated feature 20:58:32 ... so UA must support all SVG 11 strings 20:58:55 nikos: was wondering if we should leave it in and define it as returning true 20:59:12 AmeliaBR: that's the same as removing because of the behaviour defined in the spec. 20:59:30 nikos: that's ok then, probably the reason why it was just removed. I say just leave it as is 20:59:34 shepazu: I agree with that 21:00:40 shepazu: browser vendors in the past have always pushed back on conditional processing. Unless that has changed in the last couple of years, I don't see us getting momentum in the implementation so don't think we should put much effort in 21:00:58 AmeliaBR: CSS conditional processing seems to be doing well, I'd love to build on that but not something we can do now 21:01:08 shepazu: I tried to put something like this in dom3 events but was met with strong resistance 21:01:54 ... they're not bad ideas, just need to focus on what we need to do to get SVG 2 done 21:02:17 AmeliaBR: agree with new features, what do we do with existing features that are poorly implemented? How do we clean up the spec? 21:02:26 ... I have lots of ideas how to make switch cool with MQ and stuff 21:03:11 shepazu: If a feature was poorly implemented, it could be because it was poorly specced, it could be that it wasn't tested well, could be lack of browser interest 21:03:27 ... we need to work out on a case by case basis which one it was 21:03:41 ... for switch, it never really passed the critical mass of implementers that it needed to succeed 21:03:52 ... understand what you're saying about what do we do with what's left in the spec 21:04:16 AmeliaBR: switch and requiredFeatures has two implementations unless it's been torn out in the last year 21:04:24 ... problem is the feature strings aren't clearly defined 21:04:42 ... testing for filter support for example didn't mean the feature was supported without bugs 21:04:51 shepazu: that's why hasFeature fell by the wayside 21:04:59 ... the fine grainedness was missing 21:05:08 ... browsers don't want to implement that level of grain 21:05:28 ... I say this as a person who strongly advocated for this in the past 21:07:16 AmeliaBR: it might be useful to have a note in the conditional processing overview saying the requiredFeatures attribute has been removed 21:07:37 ACTION: Amelia to add a note regarding removal of requiredFeatures 21:07:37 Created ACTION-3845 - Add a note regarding removal of requiredfeatures [on Amelia Bellamy-Royds - due 2016-06-09]. 21:09:36 RRSAgent, make minutes 21:09:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/02-svg-minutes.html nikos 21:24:48 chaals has joined #svg 21:47:11 Tenacious-Techhunter has joined #svg 21:49:10 shepazu, do I have to do anything special to an xlink that references the parent of the current svg, rather than the current svg? 21:53:16 AmeliaBR has left #svg 22:20:56 shepazu_ has joined #svg