14:49:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y
14:49:13 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/06/02-mobile-a11y-irc
14:49:15 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:49:15 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #mobile-a11y
14:49:17 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF
14:49:17 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
14:49:18 <trackbot> Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:49:18 <trackbot> Date: 02 June 2016
14:49:35 <Kim>  chair: Kathleen_Wahlbin
14:51:20 <Kim> Agenda+ Finish discussion on Guideline 2.6 – Make it easier to use the physical features of the phone https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Guideline_2.6:_Make_it_easier_to_use_the_physical_features_of_the_phone.#Proposed_new_Success_Criteria_on_Device_Manipulation
14:51:22 <Kim> Agenda+ Next Steps – next meeting June 9
15:05:39 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #mobile-a11y
15:05:43 <Alistair> Alistair has joined #mobile-a11y
15:08:08 <Kim> zakim, take up next
15:08:08 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Finish discussion on Guideline 2.6 – Make it easier to use the physical features of the phone
15:08:10 <Zakim> ... https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Guideline_2.6:_Make_it_easier_to_use_the_physical_features_of_the_phone.#Proposed_new_Success_Criteria_on_Device_Manipulation"
15:08:10 <Zakim> ... taken up [from Kim]
15:08:14 <jon_avila> jon_avila has joined #mobile-a11y
15:08:38 <laura> laura has joined #mobile-a11y
15:10:31 <Kim> ... https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Guideline_2.6:_Make_it_easier_to_use_the_physical_features_of_the_phone.#Proposed_new_Success_Criteria_on_Device_Manipulation"
15:11:03 <Kim> https://www.w3.org/2016/05/26-mobile-a11y-minutes.html
15:11:17 <Kim> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobile-a11y-tf/2016May/
15:11:49 <jon_avila> present+jon_avila
15:11:55 <jon_avila> scribe:jon_avila
15:12:48 <jon_avila> kim: at the end of the minutes last time we had some items in IRC within the minutes that was not on the phone call
15:13:08 <jon_avila> marc: are we solving barriers or just added extra work.  Thought is was a good one - but interested in hearing other side.
15:14:04 <jon_avila> marc: we haven't talked through yet as David put this together
15:14:40 <jon_avila> alistair: had question about language related to manipulation related to drawing
15:16:04 <jon_avila> jeanne: exception may not be applicable
15:16:31 <jon_avila> marc: exception seems to include drawing
15:16:55 <jon_avila> jeanne: applicable to keyboard but not for device manipulation
15:16:59 <jon_avila> q?
15:17:30 <jon_avila> kim: swipe isn't a particular path
15:18:05 <jon_avila> alistair: we are aiming to better define this but gone to far
15:18:25 <jon_avila> jeanne: copied straight from keyboard exception
15:20:51 <jon_avila> alistair: talk about touch in one part and then device manipulation in another -- perhaps say non-touch
15:23:02 <jon_avila> kim: device manipulation definition was changed as well by David
15:26:53 <jon_avila> alistair: what you are describing across the screen with pressure seems like touch not related to device manipulation
15:27:11 <jon_avila> alistair: 2.6 would be around non-screen elements of device so each have their right space
15:27:14 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #mobile-a11y
15:27:45 <jon_avila> Kim: let's look at device manipulation defintion, what do folks think about that?
15:28:41 <jeanne> When device manipulation gestures are provided, a mechanism is available to operate these functions via touch, except where the underlying function requires input that cannot be provided through the touch interface.
15:29:20 <jon_avila> alistair: would take out force touch
15:30:21 <jeanne> version of defintiion from document: Moving or controlling the device with hands, body or machine. Device manipulation includes other methods of controling input to the mobile device outside of using the touch screen. This includes: pressing a physical button on the device, shaking, holding, proximity, touch, walking, angle of holding, input via the accelerometer etc. Gestures to the camera
15:30:21 <jeanne> and voice input to the microphone are addressed separately.
15:31:17 <jeanne> Moving or controlling the device with hands, body or machine. Device manipulation includes other methods of controling input to the mobile device outside of using the touch screen. This includes: pressing a physical button on the device, shaking, holding, proximity, walking, angle of holding, input via the accelerometer etc. Gestures to the camera and voice input to the microphone are
15:31:17 <jeanne> addressed separately.
15:31:36 <jon_avila> alistair: touch operable control options are available
15:32:52 <jon_avila> jeanne: what about a step counter -- you can't get it into phone.  GPS or angle from accelerometer
15:33:30 <jon_avila> alistair: if you can manipulate it with a hand then it must support touch.  Step counter is a good example.
15:33:52 <jon_avila> jeanne: one we must have is things like a shake to undue.
15:34:12 <jon_avila> kim: control and data
15:34:50 <jeanne> control vs. input.  Input can have an exception, for physical features of the phone.
15:35:02 <jon_avila> alistair: can we say when feasible?
15:35:12 <jon_avila> Jon: don't think we can use language like that
15:35:38 <jon_avila> jeanne: except where the underlying function has input that cannot be provided through the touch interface.
15:35:54 <jon_avila> alistair: that is getting there
15:36:40 <jon_avila> jeanne: what about in air gestures
15:37:40 <jon_avila> jon: do we need an exception for assistive technology
15:37:52 <jon_avila> kim: try to think of example where air gestures could not be done with control
15:38:05 <jon_avila> jeanne: looking for a control that may not work without touch
15:38:40 <jon_avila> alistair: +1 to it -- could send out to list
15:38:55 <jon_avila> kim: let's update the wiki
15:41:11 <jon_avila> alistair: we aren't really talking about the physical features of a phone - not talking about a loop - perhaps change to something like physically interact
15:41:31 <jon_avila> jeanne; I like it -- can you type it in
15:41:58 <Alistair> Alistair: Guideline 2.6: Make it easier to physically interact with the device
15:44:22 <jon_avila> jon: suggest not focus on interacting with device with interacting with the content without relying physical features of device
15:46:24 <jon_avila> alistair: should take a look at the guidelines as a whole
15:46:42 <jon_avila> kim: added in Jeanne clause in wiki
15:47:37 <jon_avila> alistair: add underlying function requires input that cannot be provided by the touch interface
15:48:09 <jon_avila> alistair: what do you mean by drawing -- drawing on the touch interface?
15:48:39 <jon_avila> alistair: unless you are drawing in the air then it is provided by the touch interface
15:48:52 <jon_avila> kim: thinking about pressure data provided by device
15:48:57 <jon_avila> alistair: could be confusion
15:49:47 <jon_avila> alistair: other things could be barometric pressure, etc.  anything that you can't emulate in touch
15:51:09 <jon_avila> alistair: should move force touch over to touch side
15:51:57 <jon_avila> kim: would that be in another SC?
15:52:05 <jon_avila> kim: should it be through failures here?
15:52:42 <jon_avila> alistair: my view into -- we find new concepts and then try to find places to put them into and then we flesh those out and then find out they are prickly and then damage the area we put them into.
15:53:33 <jon_avila> alistair: let's talk about force touch in isolation
15:54:15 <jon_avila> kim: what do you people think about ti?  I like it.  What are other areas, e.g. speech
15:54:57 <jon_avila> jeanne: agree that we should focus on the criteria of the success criteria
15:55:19 <jon_avila> kim: do we agree to take force touch and touch out
15:55:56 <jon_avila> jon: agree to remove
15:55:58 <jeanne> +1 for removing touch and force touch from the definition of device manipulation.
15:56:31 <jon_avila> RESOLUTION: remove force touch and touch from definition of device manipulation
15:58:07 <jon_avila> kim: david is not here -- send 2.6.1 to the list
15:58:15 <jeanne> action: jeanne to send revision of 2.6.1 to list.
15:58:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-52 - Send revision of 2.6.1 to list. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2016-06-09].
15:59:13 <jeanne> +1 for alastairs critique of the wording for 2.6 guideline
16:00:07 <jon_avila> alistair: should update guideline name --
16:00:18 <jon_avila> kim: keep in mind title of page is old version -- so put proposal in wiki
16:00:25 <jon_avila> zakim, list attendees
16:00:25 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jon_avila
16:00:39 <jon_avila> present+kim
16:00:50 <jon_avila> present+marc
16:00:56 <jon_avila> present+jeanne
16:01:01 <jon_avila> present+alistair
16:01:04 <jon_avila> zakim, list attendees
16:01:04 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jon_avila, kim, marc, jeanne, alistair
16:01:13 <jon_avila> zakim, make minutes
16:01:13 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make minutes', jon_avila
16:01:34 <jon_avila> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:01:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/02-mobile-a11y-minutes.html jon_avila
16:02:51 <jon_avila> trackbot, end meeting
16:02:51 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:02:51 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jon_avila, kim, marc, jeanne, alistair
16:02:59 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:02:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/02-mobile-a11y-minutes.html trackbot
16:03:00 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:03:00 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2016/06/02-mobile-a11y-actions.rdf :
16:03:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jeanne to send revision of 2.6.1 to list. [1]
16:03:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/06/02-mobile-a11y-irc#T15-58-15