14:56:05 RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y 14:56:05 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/05/26-mobile-a11y-irc 14:56:07 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:56:07 Zakim has joined #mobile-a11y 14:56:09 Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF 14:56:09 ok, trackbot 14:56:10 Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 14:56:10 Date: 26 May 2016 14:56:51 chair: Kathleen_Wahlbin 14:57:36 Agenda+ Finalizing Guideline 3.4 - Orientation https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_revision_of_3.4.1 14:57:37 Agenda+ Discussion on Guideline 2.6 – Make it easier to use the physical features of the phone 14:57:39 Agenda+ Next Steps 14:57:49 laura has joined #mobile-a11y 14:58:26 Kathy has joined #mobile-a11y 15:03:03 jeanne has joined #mobile-a11y 15:03:12 present+ Kathy 15:03:38 present+ Kim 15:03:58 Present+ Henny 15:04:23 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_revision_of_3.4.1 15:04:36 regrets+ Alistair, Patrick, Alan 15:04:39 marcjohlic has joined #mobile-a11y 15:05:09 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Guideline_2.6:_Make_it_easier_to_use_the_physical_features_of_the_phone. 15:05:12 zakim, take up next 15:05:12 agendum 1. "Finalizing Guideline 3.4 - Orientation https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_revision_of_3.4.1" taken up [from Kim] 15:05:36 zakim, take up next 15:05:36 agendum 1 was just opened, Kim 15:05:51 present+ jeanne 15:05:56 zakim, take up next 15:05:56 agendum 1 was just opened, Kim 15:06:13 zakim, close item 1 15:06:13 agendum 1, Finalizing Guideline 3.4 - Orientation https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_revision_of_3.4.1, closed 15:06:15 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:06:15 2. Discussion on Guideline 2.6 – Make it easier to use the physical features of the phone [from Kim] 15:06:24 zakim, take up item 2 15:06:24 agendum 2. "Discussion on Guideline 2.6 – Make it easier to use the physical features of the phone" taken up [from Kim] 15:07:39 Kathy: David's comment – whether or not keyboard operability is already required in 2.1.1 so whether it's needed here. Jonathan agreed with that 15:09:39 chriscm has joined #mobile-a11y 15:09:49 Hey All. Internet struggles. Hopefully connected to the WebEx shortly. 15:09:57 Henny: What input 15:10:05 Kathy: have to discuss what actually falls under device manipulation 15:10:46 Kathy: cross out and/or keyboard – that would mean that if they were available by keyboard we're still requiring those to be by touch because we've got rid of the or, but it does keep them kind of separate from each other 15:13:46 Kathy: we could think about combining some of those in the future 15:13:51 definition of device manipulation -> https://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/#def-device-manipulation 15:13:54 Kathy: we can leave the and/or keyboard in there for now and come back and revisit that. 15:15:59 Kathy: revisiting now… 15:16:45 jon_avila has joined #mobile-a11y 15:16:57 Jon: ultimately if they were available – we would say how they were performed – I have a concern but not a suggestion 15:17:34 Jon: maybe supplement 2.1.1 15:17:50 davidmacdonald has joined #mobile-a11y 15:18:39 zakim, draft minutes 15:18:39 I don't understand 'draft minutes', jon_avila 15:18:42 Kathy: we could do that for WCAG 3.0 not for 2.1. 2.1 we can only add success criteria guidelines or add techniques to existing success criteria. Can't change existing success criteria. 15:18:51 zakim, make minutes 15:18:52 I don't understand 'make minutes', jon_avila 15:19:09 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Guideline_2.6:_Make_it_easier_to_use_the_physical_features_of_the_phone. 15:19:47 i'm in late 15:19:56 hi 15:21:25 And existing 2.1.1 Keyboard: https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/keyboard-operation-keyboard-operable.html 15:21:26 getting my mike together... understand, but can't talk yet 15:22:09 (need to add "." at end of 2.6 link above, because it disappears when you click on it) 15:23:12 Jon: how is this different from 2.5? 15:24:14 Jon: already have the criteria that says everything must be available by touch 15:24:29 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Guideline_2.6:_Make_it_easier_to_use_the_physical_features_of_the_phone. 15:25:17 Kathy: maybe we need to add notes under the touch – or we could have a failure that advice manipulation gesture is the only way to accomplish a key task under 2.5.1 15:27:57 Kathy: 2.5.1 saying everything needs to be available by touch 15:28:45 David: traveling on the road do not have access to the keyboard, it's a lot to ask keyboard and touch available – we might get pushback on it but I think it's worth bringing to group 15:29:23 Kathy: Key Point is 2.5.1 already requiring touch, and we already have success criteria requiring keyboard, so this is not needed at all 15:29:43 https://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/touch.html 15:30:00 David: is it requiring everything by touch or requiring everything that is available by touch still available with accessibility 15:30:36 Kathy: referring back to touch and pointer – you could argue that device in a place in gesture isn't available via touch right now… 15:31:24 David: this is just requiring that once you turn on your assistive technology touch that was already there works. This doesn't require you to have a touch gesture for everything 15:31:52 Jon: I didn't realize we had left this out of 2.5 – I think everything should be available by touch 15:32:41 David: turn 2.5.1 into 2.5.2 and do new 2.5.1 everything required by touch 15:32:50 Kathy: have been requiring touch or keyboard but not necessarily both 15:33:05 Kathy: I can see the arguments on both sides – everything needs to be available by touch when touch is the primary way of interaction 15:33:28 David: the way that we used to think about a desktop with a keyboard so everything is accessible by keyboard on a mobile device it really is touch 15:35:02 kathy: it's already everything by keyboard, also adding everything by touch 15:35:48 Kathy: speech is another way of interacting with keyboard. That was Henny's point earlier that we have to be considering speech API 15:36:00 q? 15:36:04 David: do we like the idea of requiring touch in addition to keyboard 15:36:56 David: the new 2.5..1 everything is available by touch. The new 2.5.2 everything available by touch is still available by touch with AT 15:37:39 Detlev has joined #mobile-a11y 15:37:51 Jon: developer standpoint: I can create controls on the screen or keystrokes and that's the current requirement. But the keystrokes would require someone to have a keyboard. so I think I'm in favor because that breaks out a loophole requiring people to carry around a keyboard in order to operate the mobile device. Maybe doesn't go far enough with some of the issues for speech users … 15:38:14 Kathy: I like that. When we talked about this originally I thought that was the direction we were going to go and then we had. Trying to think back why we didn't do that to begin with. We did have conversations about this before 15:38:51 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Touch_Accessibility_(Guideline_2.5) 15:39:37 Kathy: also feedback from WCAG working group – a fair bit so far, they have until next week to send it back. 15:39:58 Marc: through touch or keyboard? 15:40:15 sorry to be late - had computer trouble 15:41:11 David: what about about touch on mobile views 15:41:19 Kathy: touch on laptops etc. 15:41:31 David: touch only SC 15:41:42 Kathy: failure about device manipulation 15:41:48 David: failure it's only available by keyboard 15:42:04 Kathy: then were going to get into what if a device is to have a touchscreen, or an application is only meant for desktop through keyboard interaction 15:42:22 Kathy: not everything has touchscreen 15:45:00 q+ to give the example of the person with a tablet bolted to their wheelchair and cannot shake the device to undo. 15:45:08 Kathy: nonverbal user can't use speech, doesn't have keyboard. Keyboard alone, speech alone is not sufficient to go through 15:46:02 Jeanne: example of a person who's using a tablet that's bolted to the wheelchair where the undo function is only available through shake. That person would not be able to undo things on their tablet. Touch user, don't have keyboard, but can't shake the device 15:46:16 ack jea 15:46:16 jeanne, you wanted to give the example of the person with a tablet bolted to their wheelchair and cannot shake the device to undo. 15:47:25 Marc: rather than including almost writing in a way so you're not excluding the methods of input that are available on the device. You're not locking someone somehow into a shake gesture or you are not locking someone into only doing it on the keyboard. But is there a way to write a success criteria that would cover that or do we have to cover them all separately 15:48:14 Chris: iif you use onclick events in JavaScript those by default respond to etc. Others don't 15:48:22 I have to drop off. School pick up. 15:48:34 Marc: yes exactly I don't know if there's a way to write that for devices just yet 15:48:53 Chris: and any wording that I can think of off the top of my head would be extremely device specific 15:49:12 Marc: I'm just a have a way to address all at once rather than have to address all specifically 15:49:22 Kathy: more of a 3.0 topic because it goes into revisiting the whole keyword success criteria 15:49:46 Kathy: I like the way that you're thinking – anticipate things in the future but right now we have to stay within the existing success criteria and add on to those 15:51:25 Chris: talkback trap – I think the keyboard if you are thinking about the way WCAG exists right now – if it works on the keyboard it's probably reasonably accessible. Because each operating system variant if it works on the keyboard that suggests that people are following the correct programming practices etc. If we're talking about a 2.1 extensionI believe the way to accomplish what were... 15:51:26 ...talking about his let's focus on the keyboard/touch and the sequential navigation thing. And maybe in 3.0 we can be a little more abstract and talk about it in the way that Marc is wanting to 15:51:46 Kathy: are there scenarios right now that if something is keyboard accessible it doesn't have a touch equivalent 15:52:25 Kathy: I had one last night – skip link kept Kicking me out to the URL bar. Keyboard accessible worked on the desktop, when you're using touch doesn't work 15:53:15 Kathy: that gets into things that are with screenreader turned on. This is going back to the point of where we were originally with saying everything is available by touch. Think the conversation went – what's not going to be available is keyboard is available. Is there anything in touch that's not going to be. I think there might be a few cases. 15:53:39 Chris: you might get 75,80% of the way there by focusing on the keyboard. 15:53:57 Kathy: we can have suggestions for things to be included in 3.0 but were not working on that right now 15:55:53 q+ 15:56:25 Kathy: everything available by touch is not necessarily out of scope – question is is it needed 15:57:30 Kim: everything needs to be keyboard enabled, everything doesn't need to be device manipulation enabled, but touch is in the middle – question is do we need everything to be available by touch 15:58:02 Detlev: I can't think of anything right now which wouldn't be able to work by a virtual keyboard 15:58:14 David: are we solving a real problem 15:58:49 David: we could do a new success criteria that says everything is available by touch but are we going to be solving a whole bunch of people's problems if we do that – it's a huge burden on developers. Is it more of a usability thing everybody is going to be using touch so we shouldn't worry about it 15:59:29 Jon: we were focusing on device manipulation gestures – what are the equivalent for those with the keyboard. Assistive touch and Samsung but how would you do that with a native android 16:00:19 I guess the WebEx cuts off at noon 16:00:21 LOL, nice chatting with everyone I guess.... :) 16:00:28 ooops, guess that topic is over :) 16:00:31 we will pick up the conversation next week 16:00:36 thanks everyone 16:01:04 http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/device/orientation/ 16:01:12 got kicked out by webex 16:01:23 :D 16:01:35 So the big question is if we require everything to be available by touch, are we solving real barriers or should we tighten it up i.e., all non touch, non keyboard manipulation is available by touch 16:02:20 Kim: another question is is it easy to do – if there are use cases and it's just a matter of making sure there's a virtual keyboard for everything it may be not such a headache for developers 16:03:09 I think that is where we should go.... "all device manipulation is available by touch" with a definition of manipulation already there. 16:03:43 hope that's captured in minutes. 16:05:57 zakim, make minutes 16:05:57 I don't understand 'make minutes', Kim 16:06:09 rrsagent, make minutes 16:06:09 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/26-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim 16:06:57 Present+ Marc, David, Jon 16:07:04 rrsagent, make minutes 16:07:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/26-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim 16:08:10 Present+ Detlev 16:08:20 rrsagent, make minutes 16:08:20 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/26-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim 16:14:52 rrsagent, bye 16:14:52 I see no action items