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12:45:03 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
12:45:03 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
12:45:04 <trackbot> Meeting: XForms Users Community Group Teleconference
12:45:05 <trackbot> Date: 25 May 2016
12:45:18 <Steven> Chair: Steven
12:45:22 <Steven> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2016May/0012
12:45:31 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2016May/0012
12:57:46 <alain> alain has joined #forms
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13:03:15 <Steven> Steven has joined #forms
13:04:23 <Steven> Topic: transform(): in particular the parameter passing
13:04:23 <Steven> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2016May/0006.html
13:05:38 <Steven> Steven: [summarised last week for Philip]
13:05:45 <Steven> Erik: I don't have a solution yet.
13:06:19 <Steven> Erik: There are parameters to pass to the XSLT processor, and as inputs to the transformation
13:06:47 <Steven> ... in XPath3 you have more tools to do it (hashmaps)
13:06:58 <Steven> s/)/ in particular)
13:07:49 <Steven> ... in XPath2 we don't have maps (though you could implement them as an extension)
13:07:58 <Steven> ... so the options are limited
13:10:14 <Steven> ... we could use sequences, which give limitations
13:10:24 <Steven> ... another is to use XML documents (instances)
13:11:24 <Steven> ... which would make the transformation rather heavy
13:11:51 <Steven> ... building the instance would be heavy
13:14:39 <Steven> Steven: But I see transformation as an alternative to submission, we send off a bit of XML, and we get a bit of XML back
13:14:58 <Steven> ... why can't we use the submission mechanism to support transformations?
13:15:11 <Steven> Erik: Transformations do more than that.
13:15:56 <Steven> ... if we limit to sending on XML document and getting one back, it would be a subset of what you can do
13:16:18 <Steven> ... it wouldn't be compatible with XPath3
13:16:35 <Steven> Steven: Well if it is a subset it would be compatible, but wouldn;t cover XPath3
13:16:42 <Steven> s/;/'/
13:17:19 <Steven> Erik: The attributes we have on submission are not relevant to XSLT
13:18:21 <Steven> ... instead of sending it to a resource we would send it to a transformation
13:18:23 <Steven> \Steven: Yes
13:18:57 <Steven> Alain: I am concerned about customers generating XForms. An XML syntax might actually be interesting
13:19:20 <Steven> ... XSLTForms is now implementing XPath3
13:19:29 <Steven> .... not a big problem
13:20:30 <Steven> Steven: THis is actually a bigger issue than I had expected.
13:20:52 <Steven> Philip: Last time we discussed this, this is where we stalled too
13:20:56 <Steven> s/TH/Th/
13:21:18 <Steven> Philip: How do you identify the transform, if you sdo it with a pseudo-submission.
13:21:23 <Steven> s/./?/
13:21:49 <Steven> Philip: XProc is considering similar problems with passing parameters too.
13:22:24 <Steven> ... My personal preference is an instruction rather than a function, and it being like submission, but I understand the point of dealing with documents and parameters.
13:23:19 <Steven> ... we would have more options and flexibility if we use an XML format.
13:24:37 <Steven> Steven: There will be an XProc conference here in the Autumn, and I don't follow them closely, but I gather they are considering big changes.
13:25:51 <Steven> Erik: XQuery is more flexible and expressive for dynamically creating documents. In XForms you need actions.
13:26:44 <Steven> ... maybe we could mandate the XPath3 transform.
13:26:58 <ebruchez> https://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-31/#id-maps
13:27:00 <Steven> ... One aspect is the literal syntax to specify a map
13:27:22 <ebruchez> https://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-functions-31/#map-functions
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13:28:25 <Steven> <map>
13:28:25 <Steven> <su>Sunday</su>
13:28:25 <Steven> <mo>Monday</mo>
13:28:25 <Steven> ...
13:28:25 <Steven> </map>
13:29:13 <ebruchez> transform(map:put(map:put(map.empty(), 'p1', 'v1'), 'p2', 'v2')
13:30:47 <Steven> Steven: What I am missing is some use-cases
13:30:52 <Steven> ... to measure solutions by
13:33:17 <Steven> Philip: My benchmark is being able to create a schematron schema in XForms and compile and run that against another instance in the form.
13:34:25 <Steven> ... with a transform function, everything could run in the form.
13:35:14 <Steven> Erik: Another usecase is the ability during a submission to transform the data.
13:36:16 <Steven> Alain: I use this a lot, for adding nodes that later get removed.
13:36:27 <Steven> ... I use my own transform function.
13:37:02 <Steven> Steven: Do we have a description of your transform Alain?
13:37:11 <Steven> Alain: Not a formal one, it is quite simple.
13:37:41 <Steven> Steven: I'd like to know how your parameter passing works and so on.
13:38:03 <Steven> Alain: I'll have a look for an example.
13:38:19 <alain> https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/XSLTForms/The_transform_function
13:38:38 <Steven> Steven: Thanks!
13:40:01 <Steven> Philip: I made some examples to do transforms, I could try and locate that.
13:40:33 <Steven> ... I'm on holiady from Firday (regrets for next week); I'll try and send today.
13:40:44 <Steven> s/ady/day/
13:40:51 <Steven> s/Fir/Fri/
13:41:30 <Steven> Steven: let's look at some examples this week, and discuss firther next week.
13:41:46 <Steven> Topic: 7 The XForms Submission Module
13:41:46 <Steven> https://www.w3.org/community/xformsusers/wiki/XForms_2.0#The_XForms_Submission_Module
13:41:46 <Steven> Topic: Section 8 (Controls)
13:41:46 <Steven> https://www.w3.org/community/xformsusers/wiki/XForms_2.0#Core_Form_Controls
13:42:34 <Steven> Steven: I'd like to wrap Sections 7 & 8, and move on.
13:42:48 <Steven> ... DO you need more time, or can we move on?
13:42:53 <Steven> s/DO/Do/
13:43:37 <Steven> Erik: I will take a quick look
13:43:52 <Steven> Philip: I'm up to 7.7, with no comments.
13:44:04 <Steven> ... but I'm away next week
13:44:12 <Steven> Steven: OK, I'll give two weeks.
13:44:20 <Steven> Topic: AOB
13:44:44 <Steven> Philip: I've found the code for transform, so I'll send thm
13:45:09 <Steven> [ADJOURN]
13:45:13 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
13:45:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/25-forms-minutes.html Steven
13:45:46 <Steven> Present: Steven, Alain, Philip, Erik
13:45:47 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
13:45:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/25-forms-minutes.html Steven