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11:36:47 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/05/25-dpub-irc
11:36:58 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
11:37:16 <ivan> Meeting: DPUB IG (Virtual) F2F
11:37:27 <ivan> Chair: Tzviya, Markus
11:37:49 <ivan> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/May_2016_Virtual_F2F
11:38:13 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Virtual F2F (2016-05-25) Agenda and Dial-in: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/May_2016_Virtual_F2F
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11:44:05 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
11:44:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/25-dpub-minutes.html ivan
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11:56:53 <HeatherF> present+ Heather_Flanagan
11:57:07 <ivan> Present+ Ivan
11:57:38 <dauwhe> present+ dauwhe
11:58:08 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #dpub
11:58:42 <brady_duga> present+ duga
11:59:19 <mgylling> present+ Markus
11:59:22 <tzviya> present+ Tzviya
11:59:57 <ShaneM> present+ ShaneM
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12:03:21 <bjdmeest> Present+ Ben_De_Meester
12:03:36 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
12:04:12 <rdeltour> present+
12:04:37 <pkra> Sigh. webex...
12:05:13 <Bill_Kasdorf> not connecting. Is it the usual phone number and meeting number that we use Mondays?
12:05:28 <brady_duga> No
12:05:29 <HeatherF> https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=mbdb39d6c679eb2f52abbe79e0cf37080
12:06:14 <mgylling> agenda: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/May_2016_Virtual_F2F
12:06:30 <pkra> present+ peter krautzberger (audio only)
12:06:32 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/May_2016_Virtual_F2F
12:06:34 <clapierre> clapierre has joined #DPUB
12:06:45 <clapierre> present+ Charles_LaPierre
12:08:21 <mgylling> zakim, pick a victim named Brady
12:08:21 <Zakim> I don't understand 'pick a victim named Brady', mgylling
12:09:15 <bjdmeest> scribenick bjdmeest
12:09:22 <tzviya> chair: Markus
12:09:25 <ShaneM> zakim, who is here?
12:09:25 <Zakim> Present: Heather_Flanagan, Ivan, dauwhe, duga, Markus, Tzviya, ShaneM, Ben_De_Meester, Bill_Kasdorf, rdeltour, peter, krautzberger, (audio, only), Charles_LaPierre
12:09:28 <Zakim> On IRC I see clapierre, rdeltour, Bill_Kasdorf, bjdmeest, tzviya, brady_duga, mgylling, HeatherF, Karen, dauwhe, ShaneM, RRSAgent, Zakim, pkra, ivan, rego, darobin, csarven,
12:09:28 <Zakim> ... bigbluehat, liam, trackbot, plinss, iank_, nikos, astearns
12:09:32 <HeatherF> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp-ucr/
12:09:33 <bjdmeest> mgylling: let's kick off
12:09:36 <ivan> Topic: Intro discusisons
12:09:38 <tzviya> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp-ucr/
12:09:44 <ShaneM> present- (audio, only)
12:09:48 <ShaneM> zakim, who is here?
12:09:48 <Zakim> Present: Heather_Flanagan, Ivan, dauwhe, duga, Markus, Tzviya, ShaneM, Ben_De_Meester, Bill_Kasdorf, rdeltour, peter, krautzberger, Charles_LaPierre
12:09:51 <Zakim> On IRC I see clapierre, rdeltour, Bill_Kasdorf, bjdmeest, tzviya, brady_duga, mgylling, HeatherF, Karen, dauwhe, ShaneM, RRSAgent, Zakim, pkra, ivan, rego, darobin, csarven,
12:09:51 <Zakim> ... bigbluehat, liam, trackbot, plinss, iank_, nikos, astearns
12:10:28 <bjdmeest> HeatherF: first: thanks Romain for getting the issues sorted out
12:10:36 <bjdmeest> ... much was from the issues list
12:10:44 <bjdmeest> ... I hunted down task force items as well
12:10:50 <bjdmeest> ... some cases were duplications
12:11:09 <bjdmeest> ... I do suspect, given all the different use case places
12:11:13 <bjdmeest> ... that there are some missing
12:11:37 <bjdmeest> ... I'll do active updates of the docs today
12:11:45 <laudrain> laudrain has joined #dpub
12:11:47 <bjdmeest> ... I normalized a bit, but there are discrepancies
12:11:50 <bjdmeest> ... it's a first draft
12:12:00 <laudrain> present+ Luc
12:12:42 <bjdmeest> ... the categories are my own, so better organizations are welcome
12:12:59 <tzviya> q+
12:13:17 <bjdmeest> rdeltour: I wasn't sure we needed such categorizations, but reading the first draft, the categories seem convenient
12:13:53 <bjdmeest> mgylling: the categorization can be revisited later, difficult to tell now I think
12:13:57 <bjdmeest> ... we don't have critical mass yet
12:14:08 <tzviya> q-
12:14:32 <ivan> Topic: round through TF-s
12:14:37 <bjdmeest> mgylling: before diving in, we want to check the bases of the task forces, to know whether there is more stuff on the way
12:15:23 <bjdmeest> tzviya: archival TF has some more use cases coming
12:15:30 <bjdmeest> ... there will be at least a few more use cases
12:15:40 <bjdmeest> ... Tim will come round half-way through the meeting
12:16:26 <bjdmeest> clapierre: we came up with a use cases for DIAGRAM
12:16:30 <bjdmeest> ... we started looking at that
12:17:21 <bjdmeest> ... also, for different user use cases (e.g., blind, etc.), we'll look into that
12:17:50 <bjdmeest> mgylling: did you stumble on more generic use cases, i.e., not only for digital publications?
12:18:05 <bjdmeest> clapierre: I feel some of them are, but not quite there yet
12:18:22 <bjdmeest> tzviya: we're trying to distinguish PWP-specific use cases
12:18:41 <bjdmeest> ... i.e., what makes us portable, and how does that affect persons with special needs
12:18:46 <ShaneM> For example - users who rely upon web-based ATs
12:19:18 <bjdmeest> mgylling: argumenting why something is a PWP, is to look at 'long-form publications'
12:19:25 <liam> present+ LiamQuin
12:19:26 <ivan> Present+ Liam
12:19:30 <bjdmeest> ... i.e., the difference between a web page and a 2000-page book
12:19:36 <ivan> Present- Liam
12:19:53 <ShaneM> I note that the A11Y COGA task force is expected to put out a first public working draft soon - that should include things that are relevant.
12:20:07 <bjdmeest> ... efficacy and efficiency is important
12:20:35 <bjdmeest> ... it's not critical for lolcats.com, but it is for a student needing to plow through a course book
12:21:01 <bjdmeest> ShaneM: COGA have lots of stuff, including use cases
12:21:35 <bjdmeest> mgylling: what should we expect time-wise from a11y TF?
12:22:18 <bjdmeest> clapierre: once we dive in, starting the regular meetings again, we'll get somewhere
12:22:35 <bjdmeest> ... at this point, maybe by the end of August, we should have something
12:22:55 <bjdmeest> mgylling: apart from DIAGRAM, you will also lift in some things from the note
12:23:24 <bjdmeest> clapierre: I'm not sure pagination vs reflowable is an issue, and, e.g., page turning.. is going to affect that all
12:23:37 <bjdmeest> mgylling: seems like a personalisation use case
12:24:11 <bjdmeest> tzviya: let's not focus to much on the category, and get the use case in
12:24:16 <bjdmeest> s/to/too/
12:24:33 <bjdmeest> mgylling: maybe we should add an a11y use case category?
12:25:36 <bjdmeest> HeatherF: we have personalization use cases
12:26:44 <bjdmeest> bjdmeest: we sent the identified use cases
12:26:48 <mgylling> q?
12:27:05 <bjdmeest> ivan: some use cases were submitted as issues in the ucr repo
12:27:12 <ivan> https://github.com/w3c/dpub-pwp-ucr/issues/19
12:27:27 <bjdmeest> ... are they incorporated?
12:27:40 <bjdmeest> HeatherF: I went through them
12:28:22 <bjdmeest> ... configurability for important resources is in there, cross-references are in there.. yes, they're done
12:28:37 <bjdmeest> ivan: as the locators TF is essentially closed, that's that for them
12:29:19 <bjdmeest> tzviya: (for the semantic structure TF) we have the aria web modules, that's there
12:29:32 <pkra> pkra has joined #dpub
12:29:32 <bjdmeest> ... so I'm not sure we need more
12:29:50 <bjdmeest> mgylling: how about extensibility, how can I add domain-specific semantic?
12:30:02 <bjdmeest> ... perhaps, those use cases should be in there, should they?
12:30:10 <pkra> I'm not sure if any of my IRC messages came through  -- I think they didn't.
12:30:36 <pkra> In any case: I can't get onto webex so will stick to phone.
12:30:48 <pkra> I don't think STEM TF has anything to contribute to PWP use cases.
12:30:54 <ShaneM> q+ to ask about "validity"
12:30:59 <bjdmeest> tzviya: I understand that there are domain-specific semantics, I don't know where they go
12:32:23 <bjdmeest> Bill_Kasdorf: (giving an example): for example
12:32:40 <bjdmeest> ... terms are needed to tagged as 'formal usage', not just in general sense
12:32:45 <mgylling> q?
12:33:04 <bjdmeest> ... they don't have a good place to put information
12:33:17 <pkra> @tzviya yes, I'm on that one. It's a general failing on my end (java issues)
12:33:19 <bjdmeest> ... these semantics are critically important, they are incorporated into laws etc
12:33:50 <pkra> @tzviya yes. :(
12:33:50 <ShaneM> then use role
12:34:38 <bjdmeest> ... people put specific attributes in the class attribute, because they can't put them anywhere else
12:34:53 <bjdmeest> ivan: for our purposes, this means: the dpub aria doesn't scale enough
12:35:04 <tzviya> q+
12:35:13 <bjdmeest> ... because it is bound to, a.o., a11y etc, it doesn't scale to the level we need it for
12:35:15 <bjdmeest> ... that's a use case
12:35:55 <bjdmeest> mgylling: could we identify a few of these very special cases that have a strong need for specific semantics
12:36:11 <bjdmeest> ... a few, real-world scenarios, where specific semantics is critical
12:36:19 <mgylling> ack Shane
12:36:19 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to ask about "validity"
12:36:58 <bjdmeest> Bill_Kasdorf: I could easily supply some examples from common domains (education, law, engineering)
12:37:09 <bjdmeest> ... all three domains are important in a broad sense
12:37:15 <mgylling> ACTION Bill_Kasdorf to provide 3-4 examples from specialized domains re use of specialized semantics
12:37:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-58 - Provide 3-4 examples from specialized domains re use of specialized semantics [on Bill Kasdorf - due 2016-06-01].
12:37:38 <ShaneM> ack ShaneM
12:38:26 <bjdmeest> ShaneM: I wanted to note: about validity: did you mean 'does it pass validator.nu'?
12:39:15 <bjdmeest> mgylling: there are 3 ways of defining roles, and we have to pragmatically align with HTML5
12:39:29 <bjdmeest> ... i.e., a role has a specific set of values
12:40:02 <bjdmeest> ... so, I talk about the 'real-world' role attribute as expressed in HTML5 and ARIA
12:40:10 <bjdmeest> ... there, extensibility is not allowed
12:40:19 <bjdmeest> ... which differs from your role-module
12:41:01 <bjdmeest> ShaneM: there's a fourth player, the WHATWG attribute
12:41:09 <bjdmeest> ... it depends on who you care about
12:41:26 <ivan> q+
12:41:44 <bjdmeest> ... I can help, by changing the validator, that if it sees the role attribute, it emits a warning instead of an error
12:41:50 <bjdmeest> ... which might ease users
12:42:15 <bjdmeest> ... but, even if you extended the vocabulary, these semantics would be meaningless for AT
12:42:27 <bjdmeest> ... there is a data-*, and you can do whatever you want with that
12:42:41 <bjdmeest> mgylling: it's not only for a11y, it's a lot about processing
12:42:58 <bjdmeest> ... e.g. role=assessment, we use that in dpub
12:43:17 <bjdmeest> ... when authoring, when making an assessment, to fetch the latest version, etc.
12:43:53 <mgylling> q?
12:44:04 <mgylling> ack tzviya
12:44:09 <bjdmeest> ... there are 2 factions: use the role module liberally (which would suit us), or restrict the role module, to make AT more predictable
12:44:19 <ivan> q-
12:44:43 <bjdmeest> tzviya: we're just writing use cases, this is about: a world that needs specific semantics exists
12:44:53 <bjdmeest> ... there are some examples here
12:45:16 <bjdmeest> ... so, we have semantic needs, here's why, it's about processing and using, and here are some use cases
12:45:36 <ShaneM> https://www.w3.org/TR/role-attribute/#s_role_module_attributes
12:45:42 <bjdmeest> ... mentioning a11y is a great idea, because for education, that's crucial
12:45:47 <mgylling> q?
12:46:34 <bjdmeest> mgylling: so, we went through archival (get back to them), a11y (get new section for them), action for Bill
12:46:46 <bjdmeest> ... (user interface and computer interface would be great)
12:46:54 <bjdmeest> tzviya: anything for CSS?
12:46:58 <ivan> q+
12:47:02 <mgylling> ack ivan
12:47:34 <bjdmeest> ivan: we have to be careful what to put where, but I think the pagination and mainly the pagination over several documents
12:47:41 <bjdmeest> ... is something that should be mentioned somehow
12:47:51 <bjdmeest> ... pagination is discussed in CSS
12:48:30 <bjdmeest> ... but there is this additional thing -- PWP related -- pagination/transition across documents, which remains to be solved
12:48:33 <rdeltour> q+
12:48:47 <mgylling> ack romain
12:49:17 <bjdmeest> rdeltour: besides pagination, there is also the issue about the customization of CSS
12:49:41 <ivan> q+
12:49:44 <bjdmeest> ... to not make the same mistakes as in EPUB
12:50:04 <ivan> ack rdeltour
12:50:07 <bjdmeest> mgylling: let's keep these two things in our mind (when dave gets back)
12:50:27 <bjdmeest> ... the multiple documents thing, and the cascade customization thing
12:51:16 <bjdmeest> ivan: some issues of romain are related to multi-page transition, some are CSS-related
12:51:22 <bjdmeest> ... some are related, and should be written down
12:52:14 <mgylling> q?
12:52:18 <ivan> ack ivan
12:52:26 <bjdmeest> mgylling: pagination and generated content, comics-like transitions, and romains issues
12:52:52 <bjdmeest> ivan: we have 2 or 3 issues on security-related things
12:53:30 <bjdmeest> mgylling: about identifying areas we are weak in content, that's a good observation
12:53:46 <bjdmeest> tzviya: they need some clean-up, they are in the issue tracker
12:54:21 <HeatherF> q+
12:54:28 <mgylling> acl heather
12:54:33 <mgylling> ack heather
12:54:35 <ivan> For the records, the security ones are https://github.com/w3c/dpub-pwp-ucr/issues/21 and https://github.com/w3c/dpub-pwp-ucr/issues/22
12:55:05 <bjdmeest> HeatherF: going through the issues as they are at the issue tracker, might get confusing
12:55:27 <bjdmeest> mgylling: true, let's not get lost in the details
12:55:38 <ivan> Topic: Fundamental features in PWP
12:55:44 <tzviya> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp-ucr/#use-cases---fundamental-features-of-a-pwp
12:56:47 <bjdmeest> ivan: one of the core issues we got is: why do this PWP stuff in the first place?
12:57:11 <bjdmeest> ... given that CSS works perfectly, we could just publish on the web, right? Why do we need PWP?
12:57:36 <bjdmeest> ... if we can give some clear use cases, for an end-user, a publisher, etc., we could tackle those questions
12:58:27 <bjdmeest> ... maybe such a use case is easy to make for a publisher
12:59:00 <bjdmeest> mgylling: so, the rationale for portable documents?
12:59:12 <bjdmeest> ivan: and also, the rationale of documents that are more than one webpage
12:59:20 <bjdmeest> ... there are several different areas
12:59:36 <tzviya> q+
12:59:39 <bjdmeest> ... portability might be only one of them
12:59:53 <pkra> soo close. now I can see y'all.
12:59:59 <pkra> but you can't see me.
13:00:00 <bjdmeest> Bill_Kasforf: important area is integrity
13:00:01 <pkra> oh well.
13:00:17 <mgylling> q?
13:00:21 <mgylling> ack liam
13:00:21 <Zakim> liam, you wanted to ask differently - what long-term value proposition can we offer people reading ebooks and ebook reader maker and Web users
13:01:12 <bjdmeest> liam: I agree with ivan, but also: what's the value proposition that we can offer to people that read ebooks and ebook reader makers now?
13:01:21 <bjdmeest> ... what significant changes can there be?
13:01:49 <bjdmeest> ... we do have potential for, e.g., interlinking e-books
13:02:28 <bjdmeest> ivan: I was asking 'what does this approach bring to readers and users'
13:02:44 <bjdmeest> ... there is also 'what does this approach bring to publishers and reading systems'
13:02:47 <mgylling> q?
13:02:51 <mgylling> ack tzviya
13:03:06 <pkra> hurgh.
13:03:11 <pkra> and I'm gone again.
13:03:35 <mgylling> scratch pad: https://docs.google.com/document/d/18Y6toZqUkOLbfs43rjMHxcheJv-iQlgJALhXmjCZ1Ec/edit
13:03:43 <bjdmeest> tzviya: right now, we use jargon in the use cases that we used ourselves (e.g., packed/unpacked)
13:03:56 <bjdmeest> ... but that's not always clear for users
13:04:40 <HeatherF> yarn already purchased. :-)
13:04:53 <HeatherF> I believe you said purple...
13:05:18 <ShaneM> inertia
13:05:22 <bjdmeest> mgylling: getting back to ivan and Liam: have you asked the hardcore web people why people still use pdf?
13:05:40 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
13:05:51 <mgylling> q?
13:05:54 <bjdmeest> ivan: the answer may be: big ugly corporations, pdf is a relic
13:06:11 <mgylling> ack liam
13:06:20 <bjdmeest> mgylling: one of the alternatives is making an alternative to pdf that uses OWP
13:06:35 <mgylling> ack Bill_K
13:06:45 <bjdmeest> liam: answers include (maybe exaggerated): pdf is legacy, print is legacy, and they should go away
13:07:05 <bjdmeest> Bill_Kasdorf: both the PDF folks and web folks see those formats as output formats
13:07:18 <bjdmeest> ... but publishers use web formats way upstream in the workflow
13:07:22 <bjdmeest> ... for processing
13:07:40 <ivan> q+
13:07:43 <chaals> chaals has joined #dpub
13:07:58 <mgylling> ack ivan
13:08:05 <bjdmeest> ... the thing is: start with web technology, and it's always web technology, not just delivering a product
13:08:40 <pkra> ahhh. everything is crashing.
13:08:53 <bjdmeest> ivan: I think they say: you only need Web technology, you don't need anything new
13:08:55 <mgylling> q?
13:09:19 <HeatherF> Link to scratch pad?
13:09:27 <tzviya> https://docs.google.com/document/d/18Y6toZqUkOLbfs43rjMHxcheJv-iQlgJALhXmjCZ1Ec/edit?usp=sharing
13:10:55 <bjdmeest> ivan: I just added high-level things to the scratch pad, i.e., what makes books different than a single web page
13:12:14 <bjdmeest> ... translating them to technology, it makes a point about multiple resources being considered as one entity
13:12:21 <bjdmeest> ... that's the integrity concept
13:12:44 <bjdmeest> ... and it also brings in the necessity for publishers to handle that thing as a single thing
13:14:19 <laudrain> q+
13:14:24 <bjdmeest> mgylling: an example of integrity/longevity is a government agency
13:14:57 <bjdmeest> ... it's one reason why government agencies make pdfs: it's a reliable blob that will work as a document for eternity
13:14:58 <HeatherF> q+
13:15:20 <bjdmeest> tzviya: also journals
13:15:29 <mgylling> q?
13:16:14 <bjdmeest> ShaneM: there is an argument about organizations lag behind (i.e., in web browser versions)
13:16:21 <mgylling> ack luc
13:16:23 <bjdmeest> ... mature organizations have a requirement for stability
13:17:28 <bjdmeest> luc: PWP is for publication, not document, so a 'publication' already stands for those issues
13:17:33 <HeatherF> q-
13:18:04 <bjdmeest> ivan: the business model of publishing has been thinking in terms of a stable entity, that is the product
13:18:17 <bjdmeest> ... there's a business model behind that, that we cannot simply ignore
13:18:58 <bjdmeest> mgylling: about journals: many publishers already use the Web
13:20:33 <bjdmeest> ivan: as a use case: modern publications need to adapt to various reading systems
13:20:39 <bjdmeest> ... web technologies already provide that
13:21:43 <mgylling> q?
13:21:48 <mgylling> ack luc
13:22:07 <bjdmeest> laudrian: about national archives
13:22:14 <bjdmeest> ... it makes me think about legal deposits
13:22:54 <bjdmeest> ... e.g. archives that get a copy of every publication, print and ebook
13:23:00 <tzviya> q?
13:23:03 <tzviya> ack la
13:23:20 <bjdmeest> ivan: HeatherF, can you work with this scratchpad?
13:23:31 <bjdmeest> HeatherF: we'll cleanup later
13:24:00 <darobin> darobin has joined #dpub
13:24:05 <tzviya> ack li
13:24:05 <Zakim> liam, you wanted to ponder bibref
13:24:26 <bjdmeest> liam: people still use PDF, because we don't have a good linking-story
13:24:40 <bjdmeest> ... bibliographic citations and references etc.
13:25:12 <bjdmeest> ivan: there's also the issue of conforming on whether the whole PDF toolkit is good
13:25:46 <bjdmeest> [10 min break]
13:31:27 <HeatherF> The copy on Github has been updated with what I've captured so far from this morning's discussion. Note additions to sections 2, 7, 8, and 9
13:31:42 <ShaneM> HeatherF+
13:32:04 <HeatherF> Bah, a missing </section> tag. I hate it when that happens.
13:32:32 <ShaneM> I use vim + Syntastic + HTML tidy so it warns me about such things when I save.  Handy.
13:33:16 <HeatherF> I'll have to look at that at some point. I'm using Atom.
13:36:02 <laudrain> slippery
13:36:39 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:36:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/25-dpub-minutes.html ivan
13:36:58 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
13:37:22 <dauwhe> tzviya: welcome back my friends to the show that never ends
13:37:38 <dauwhe> ... we've added more stuff to the google doc and the use cases
13:37:44 <dauwhe> ... we were talking about national archives
13:37:51 <dauwhe> ... any comments on that?
13:37:57 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: wait for TimCole?
13:37:58 <ivan> q+
13:38:05 <tzviya> ack iv
13:38:08 <HeatherF> uh oh
13:38:09 <dauwhe> ivan: I'm looking at what heather did
13:38:30 <dauwhe> ... what I miss is the question of one web doc vs a collection of resources
13:39:00 <dauwhe> HeatherF: I have a placeholder under pagination and gencon
13:39:16 <dauwhe> ivan: for me this is the first use case, as it sets the tone
13:39:23 <dauwhe> ... this and online/offline
13:39:36 <rdeltour> +1
13:39:39 <dauwhe> tzviya: I agree
13:39:56 <dauwhe> ... let's put that at the top
13:40:53 <dauwhe> ... we are talking about multiple html files
13:41:21 <dauwhe> ... publishers work with chapters and components
13:41:39 <dauwhe> ... we could put all of them together, but that goes to performance
13:41:45 <dauwhe> ivan: it's also related to workflow
13:42:00 <dauwhe> ... if a 2k page book turns into one html file that's a problem
13:42:19 <dauwhe> laudrain: chapters have their own individual workflow
13:42:25 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: different authors
13:42:54 <dauwhe> ivan: we are not only talking about html files, but zillions of images and css files, which are all conceptually part of a single chapter
13:43:10 <dauwhe> brady_duga: why are CSS and html in different files? It's an organizational thing
13:43:12 <NickRuffilo> NickRuffilo has joined #dpub
13:43:19 <dauwhe> ivan: if you talk about media files, it's not only that
13:43:35 <dauwhe> brady_duga: there's no reason for html and css to be in different files
13:43:58 <dauwhe> ivan: it comes back to workflow, it becomes unmanageable
13:44:26 <Bill_Kasdorf> one html can have many different CSSs
13:44:33 <tzviya> q?
13:44:57 <dauwhe> dauwhe: everything in tech has evolved towards division
13:45:06 <dauwhe> mgylling: what about the 5doc guy?
13:45:16 <laudrain> q+
13:45:29 <dauwhe> tzviya: we have a few bullet points here
13:45:46 <NickRuffilo> present+ NickRuffilo
13:46:03 <tzviya> ack la
13:46:21 <dauwhe> dauwhe: I want the freedom to chunk or not as suits my content or workflow
13:46:38 <dauwhe> laudrain: chunking is important... can grab a chapter or subdocuments from a larger whole
13:47:00 <tzviya> q?
13:47:04 <dauwhe> ... using web techniques we could have consolidation of chunks
13:48:01 <dauwhe> ... a publication may be a combination of smaller chunks that are presented as a whole
13:48:15 <mgylling> q?
13:48:17 <dauwhe> tzviya: Heather was editing as Luc spoke
13:48:18 <mgylling> q+
13:48:23 <dauwhe> ... this might be more than one use case
13:48:35 <tzviya> ack mg
13:48:35 <dauwhe> HeatherF: we're coming up with requirements, but we don't have use cases yet
13:49:01 <dauwhe> mgylling: Luc, maybe one scenario is to say
13:49:20 <dauwhe> ... a publisher puts together an anthology, and uses resources from different rights-holders on different servers
13:49:36 <dauwhe> ... then you don't have the right to move the content (there's a rights issue)
13:49:46 <dauwhe> ... and you don't have the right to modify the content
13:50:05 <dauwhe> laudrain: I was thinking more of a travel guide or wine guide
13:50:16 <dauwhe> ... the publication may be a large amount of small pieces
13:50:39 <dauwhe> ... this publication can be read from a-z like a book, or could be read with personalization (only the white wines)
13:50:47 <tzviya> q?
13:51:00 <NickRuffilo> q+
13:51:02 <dauwhe> ... if it's one HTML file you'd have to hide some sections
13:51:19 <dauwhe> ... but we could assemble small chunks of data
13:52:06 <dauwhe> ... you could have a museum guide, but need to customize for each user
13:52:58 <dauwhe> mgylling: you could do this with one doc and scripting
13:53:06 <dauwhe> q+
13:53:14 <tzviya> ack ni
13:53:15 <ivan> q+
13:53:30 <dauwhe> NickRuffilo: there are already businesses doing what you asked, one called slicebooks
13:53:39 <dauwhe> ... they chop an epub into html chapters and lets you remix
13:53:51 <dauwhe> ... the purchasers can pick
13:54:08 <dauwhe> ... I don't think this should be at the spec level
13:54:12 <dauwhe> ... it's a business problem
13:54:22 <dauwhe> ... we should make sure whatever package we do is chunkable
13:54:37 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
13:54:37 <dauwhe> ... having one giant html file would make chunking hard
13:55:33 <tzviya> ack iv
13:55:33 <dauwhe> tzviya: that's what we're doing, writing use cases
13:55:48 <tzviya> ack da
13:57:01 <dauwhe> mgylling: what about generated content across multiple docs, URLs, etc?
13:57:42 <dauwhe> ivan: we know that web practice is to combine several files into one for a website
13:57:57 <dauwhe> ... we want to use web tech, want to use whatever is done on the web, so we do several files
13:57:59 <tzviya> q?
13:58:11 <dauwhe> ... we have to bind that with the requirements that come from the opposite
13:58:23 <NickRuffilo> q+
13:58:23 <dauwhe> ... that we need one handle for national archives, legal deposits
13:58:40 <dauwhe> ... having one URI, having a manifest...
13:58:57 <dauwhe> ... combined with the requirements we already have
13:59:05 <tzviya> ack bi
13:59:31 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: creating a publication out of chunks, and chunking a big doc to create smaller things
13:59:52 <dauwhe> ... the components of a publication must be aggregated or disaggregated without loss of information. that's a requirement
13:59:52 <tzviya> ack ni
14:00:21 <dauwhe> NickRuffilo: have we brought up the use case that publishers like to sell your content?
14:00:41 <dauwhe> ... as a retailer, people want to load their epub onto devices that have no connectivity
14:00:50 <dauwhe> ... so if it can't be emailed, it isn't viable
14:00:53 <ShaneM> +1 to reading on the beach
14:00:56 <dauwhe> ... for traditional publishing
14:01:02 <dauwhe> ivan: we haven't talked about the package yet
14:01:08 <laudrain> q+
14:01:21 <dauwhe> ... right now we're trying to answer the question of why do we need anything at all?
14:01:29 <dauwhe> ... why doesn't the current web work for us?
14:01:36 <ivan> q+
14:01:41 <dauwhe> ... these are the fundamental things for which we need use cases.
14:01:48 <tzviya> ack la
14:01:58 <dauwhe> laudrain: I agree with Nick about this "whole"
14:02:24 <dauwhe> ... put before having this whole, we grab many resources and aggregate them
14:02:45 <dauwhe> ... but specs should not block anything about this possibility
14:03:03 <dauwhe> ... when it's a publication, it can always be grabbed as a whole, or get some part after publication like slicing
14:03:18 <dauwhe> ... also in personalization
14:03:38 <dauwhe> ... if there's only one html file it's difficult
14:03:51 <tzviya> ack iv
14:03:59 <dauwhe> tzviya: nick is adding a use case, if you can add a bullet that would be helpful
14:04:09 <dauwhe> ivan: I am trying to extend the use case on anthology
14:04:27 <dauwhe> tzviya: going back to use case of publications being composed of multiple pieces
14:04:36 <tzviya> q?
14:04:38 <dauwhe> ... heather, do you have what you need?
14:04:42 <dauwhe> HeatherF: I think so
14:05:00 <TimCole> TimCole has joined #dpub
14:05:14 <dauwhe> tzviya: we may break this into a few sections
14:05:19 <mgylling> q+
14:05:23 <dauwhe> ... welcome Tim!
14:05:26 <HeatherF> I am not at all married to the organization of the doc. IT's more for my own use than anything else right now.
14:05:28 <dauwhe> q+
14:05:32 <NickRuffilo> q+
14:05:33 <dauwhe> q-
14:05:35 <dauwhe> q?
14:05:37 <TimCole> present+ Tim_Cole
14:05:54 <dauwhe> tzviya: we have stuff on offline and online, and why we need portable publications of multiple docs
14:05:55 <mgylling> q-
14:06:03 <dauwhe> ... we could go on with brainstorming, we're on a roll
14:06:17 <dauwhe> ... do we want to keep going with portability
14:06:18 <tzviya> ack ni
14:06:25 <dauwhe> NickRuffilo: have we talked rights yet?
14:06:26 <dauwhe> tzviya: no
14:06:33 <dauwhe> NickRuffilo: do we want to discuss?
14:07:08 <dauwhe> ... Apache has password protection, but I'm unaware of other web things
14:07:14 <dauwhe> ... we'd need to solve that problem
14:07:18 <laudrain> q+
14:07:19 <dauwhe> mgylling: is there a use case
14:07:36 <dauwhe> NickRuffilo: I have a wine book, only want the people who bought it to see it
14:07:45 <dauwhe> mgylling: isn't that a paywall
14:07:49 <HeatherF> I have a Read/Write Control REquired use case in there.
14:07:51 <HeatherF> Is this the same?
14:07:52 <dauwhe> ivan: I think this is for later
14:08:12 <mgylling> q?
14:08:15 <dauwhe> ivan: heather's doc has an entry on security issues
14:08:19 <ivan> q+
14:08:22 <tzviya> ack la
14:08:26 <dauwhe> tzviya: feel free to add issues in the tracker
14:08:33 <dauwhe> laudrain: it's not a question of security
14:08:38 <dauwhe> ... it's a question of rights
14:08:49 <dauwhe> ... we should have a use case that says every component has it's rights
14:09:02 <Bill_Kasdorf> the POE WG (Permissions and Obligations Expressions WG) is working on what is often thought of as "rights expressions"
14:09:07 <dauwhe> ... the rights of this resource should be kept as a pwp is made available
14:09:18 <dauwhe> ... don't know if you've heard of the ??? project
14:09:30 <dauwhe> ... and being able to retrieve copyright and licensing info
14:09:43 <Bill_Kasdorf> POE WG: https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Main_Page
14:09:48 <tzviya> ack iv
14:09:53 <dauwhe> ... in pwp if we assemble some chunks that are inside the package, we should be able to keep copyright info
14:10:01 <dauwhe> tzviya: do you want to talk about your other WG?
14:10:11 <dauwhe> ivan: bill already has; it's a valid use case, we should remember it
14:10:25 <dauwhe> ... this is not security, but we need a clear set of use cases for the fundamentals
14:10:29 <HeatherF> I have noted the rights comment under requirements. It doesn't sound like a use case yet.
14:10:58 <dauwhe> ivan: I have modified the first use case for why portable docs need to be composed
14:11:14 <HeatherF> I am Anonymous Buffalo! Yay!
14:11:15 <dauwhe> ... to have a use case that shows the duality of the situation is important
14:11:34 <dauwhe> ... we have multiplicity of things, but we need the one thing for other reasons
14:12:06 <dauwhe> tzviya: does this work for everyone (reads use case)
14:12:38 <ShaneM> "legal deposit" seems arcane
14:12:41 <dauwhe> rdeltour: what do we mean by different locations on the web?
14:12:57 <dauwhe> ivan: we can simplify it, I can remove this, it doesn't add to the use case
14:13:07 <rdeltour> +1
14:13:13 <dauwhe> ... the use case is we can't solve everything by having one giant file
14:13:29 <dauwhe> tzviya: this use case is packed with detail
14:13:42 <dauwhe> ... should we have requirements underneath it?
14:13:55 <dauwhe> ivan: you have a good point, which is more on the editorial side
14:14:23 <dauwhe> ... for each use case, we could have requirements and then collect them in the end
14:14:29 <rdeltour> +1 again :-)
14:14:38 <dauwhe> ... it's clear if we do any use case which is real, it will lead to several requirements
14:14:41 <mgylling> +1
14:15:36 <ivan> Topic: Archival TF input
14:15:52 <dauwhe> tzviya: I know the archival task force has some use cases
14:16:05 <dauwhe> ... what can we expect from the archival tf?
14:16:40 <dauwhe> TimCole: Nick was looking at what they need to do with the manifest
14:16:51 <dauwhe> ... what they need to do when things change
14:17:05 <dauwhe> ... these didn't sound like drastic changes from current practices
14:17:25 <dauwhe> ... but archiving servers assume they have permissions
14:17:34 <HeatherF> q+
14:17:36 <dauwhe> ... which gets complicated with distributed stuff
14:17:45 <dauwhe> ... there are maybe 3 or 4 additional use cases coming
14:18:02 <tzviya> ack he
14:18:04 <dauwhe> ... heather may have more thoughts
14:18:11 <dauwhe> HeatherF: one q I had
14:18:32 <dauwhe> ... several use cases overlap or duplicate use cases
14:18:48 <dauwhe> ... should we mark duplicate use cases as also applying to archives?
14:18:52 <dauwhe> TimCole: I think that's a good idea
14:19:00 <dauwhe> tzviya: what kind of timeline?
14:19:15 <dauwhe> TimCole: we wanted to get a call later this month or early june, but there are conflicts
14:19:27 <dauwhe> ... I need to put out a new doodle poll
14:19:49 <dauwhe> ... and we have some guests, one from IA and someone from national library of Holland
14:20:09 <tzviya> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp-ucr/#use-cases---archival-interest
14:20:10 <dauwhe> ... but it will be good to mark some existing use cases as applying to archives
14:20:20 <dauwhe> tzviya: there are four broad use cases
14:20:30 <dauwhe> ... section 8-3 outlines the most important part
14:20:43 <dauwhe> ... do we think we're going to go much beyond this?
14:21:07 <dauwhe> TimCole: I need to look more carefully at what Nicholas did last time
14:21:28 <dauwhe> ... these might have implications for why the manifest is important
14:21:57 <HeatherF> mgylling: yes, and done in my working copy
14:22:02 <dauwhe> tzviya: we want to keep in mind that we have the main use cases, and then we have more nuanced details
14:22:28 <dauwhe> TimCole: there's something about the manifest... why the manifest is needed that are not duplicative of what has already been said
14:22:32 <tzviya> q?
14:22:50 <dauwhe> tzviya: we might have an archiving case in the first section, then others might end up in other sections
14:23:10 <dauwhe> ... archiving is one of our most important use cases, but they might be scattered throughout the document
14:23:18 <dauwhe> ... any more comments on this?
14:23:28 <mgylling> Dave:  use cases
14:23:28 <mgylling>  - pagination, generated content over multiple documents
14:23:29 <mgylling>  - samuel actialuna
14:23:30 <mgylling>  - the cascade, who is in charge of the presentation.
14:23:31 <ivan> Topic: CSS & co
14:23:51 <dauwhe> tzviya: first we had questions about css things that occur across multiple docs
14:23:57 <dauwhe> ... Nick, can you scribe?
14:24:18 <NickRuffilo> scribenick: nickruffilo
14:24:46 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: "we were talking about issues in CSS that affect a package of document - such as pagination and content across multiple documents."
14:25:09 <tzviya> q?
14:25:11 <NickRuffilo> Dave: "Page transitions are absumed under pagination?"
14:25:32 <ivan> s/absumed/subsumed/
14:25:53 <NickRuffilo> Markus: "If your usecases cover pagination over multiple documents and you find a nice way to get pagination effects, great.  You can have a use case that covers multiple items."
14:26:25 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: "In the meantime it would be good to write the basic use cases.  They can be very simple.  "
14:27:22 <NickRuffilo> Dave: "There's lots of UI things like turning pages and navigating the documents.  "
14:28:19 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: "The use case is something along the lines of 'CSS needs to function inside a package'"
14:28:20 <NickRuffilo> q+
14:28:42 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "one thing is that although a document is spreading over many HTML files, pagination should be smooth enough that the reader should not even realize that."
14:29:25 <NickRuffilo> Brady: "Also useful for searching within a document."
14:29:30 <tzviya> ack ni
14:30:36 <NickRuffilo> Nick: "what is sub optimal with each HTML file including what they want..."
14:30:55 <pkra> I'm back! (audio only)
14:30:56 <NickRuffilo> Dave: "Useful to have counters - such as CSS for page/chapter counting across documents."
14:31:22 <ShaneM> I like that he knew chapters start on odd pages.
14:31:23 <tzviya> q?
14:31:47 <NickRuffilo> Brady: "In japanese, you may want segregation..."
14:32:00 <NickRuffilo> DavE: "there are techniques, where you could do counter resets."
14:32:59 <NickRuffilo> Dave: "an ebook reading system applies user preferences at the 'whole document' size - so each html file loaded looks the same."
14:33:52 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "For the CSS people, it may be complicated.  But there needs to be a notion of a collection of resources.  The continuity of the pages, means the CSS needs to know about the series of documents we are talking about.  We aren't talking about solving it, but use-cases and requirements."
14:34:10 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: "Added some of these items to googledoc..."
14:34:23 <HeatherF> It would be even better if we can turn these requirements into use cases...
14:35:14 <HeatherF> Someone will lose out on being Nyan Cat. That's going to be a huge disappointment.
14:35:31 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: "I wanted to work on user stylesheets because I've been told I'm dead."
14:35:55 <NickRuffilo> Dave: "I've been told it's how things cascade.  It would come into the cascade at a certain point..."
14:36:13 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: "Are we talking about things like fonts?"
14:36:22 <NickRuffilo> Dave: "Anything, color, size, backgrounds, etc..."
14:36:42 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: "Does this belong here or in personalization?"
14:37:13 <NickRuffilo> Dave: "It is CSS - changing the presentation.  It's both...  They are intertwined.  Maybe we collect ideas and determine where they should live later."
14:37:26 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "How do these translate into use-cases?"
14:37:53 <tzviya> q?
14:37:56 <NickRuffilo> Markus: "As a publisher, I want all my footnotes to be numbered correctly...  "
14:38:15 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "... but I want that to happen without artificially merging all my chapters...."
14:38:30 <NickRuffilo> Markus: "Isn't vanilla pagination a use-case here?"
14:38:48 <NickRuffilo> Markus: "Hitting the boundary of one document doesn't cause a break."
14:39:04 <NickRuffilo> Dave: "as a user, i want to go seamlessly from one page to the next."
14:39:21 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "Wouldn't you want to go to the next chapter?"
14:39:23 <NickRuffilo> q+
14:39:42 <laudrain> q+
14:40:02 <NickRuffilo> Markus: "As a publisher, I want to control the affects of pagination."
14:40:19 <tzviya> q?
14:40:29 <NickRuffilo> Dave: "print focus sometimes makes decisions based off the price of paper.  There has been some discussion in epub."
14:40:31 <tzviya> ack ni
14:42:34 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "Today, if i understand well, if I have chap 1 and 2 separated, and use the latest houdini pagination, is that when I move from 1 to 2, chapter 2 will be a new page, because it's a new document.  I may not necessarily want that.  So I want them to be seamless.  The presentation should be closely bound to the organization of the files."
14:42:47 <NickRuffilo> Brady: "Epub used to allow it, but no one implemented.  It was dropped because it was hard."
14:43:35 <NickRuffilo> Brady: "This is very common in Japanese writing, which has been different due to performance reasons."
14:43:46 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "Brady, is it a use case you can write down???"
14:43:53 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: "Luc has been on the queue..."
14:44:06 <tzviya> ack la
14:46:07 <NickRuffilo> Luc: "The epub summit presentation on page transition.  We're thinking much more about novels but when we come to comics, there is a need for the publisher to be able to manage the transition between pages.  The publisher may be able to bind transitions.  With books with images, the publishers should be able to master the transitions.  The first bullet about numbering of notes.  In the digital
14:46:07 <NickRuffilo> world, we don't need anymore numbering.  Numbering was necessary in paper, but if notes appear as popups, we don't need numbers...  It may just be a sign that it is a note."
14:46:50 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: "To keep the print and the digital in sync, we would need to be able to number so we can reference something."
14:46:51 <NickRuffilo> q+
14:47:14 <NickRuffilo> Dave: "you may choose not to use it for a given piece of content, it isn't something i'd want to eschew"
14:47:25 <tzviya> q+
14:47:30 <tzviya> ack ni
14:47:39 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: correction: "for citation purposes... not digital in sync."
14:48:06 <tzviya> s/to keep the print and the digital in sync/In scholarly publishing
14:48:28 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
14:49:21 <tzviya> ack tz
14:49:34 <tzviya> ack bi
14:49:40 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: "Like dave said, differnet publishers will want to do different things with notes.  Some publishers may hard-code note numbers, some will auto-number."
14:49:46 <HeatherF> @tzviya Bio break?
14:49:56 <ShaneM> +1 to the numbers not changing
14:49:56 <NickRuffilo> Bill: "some people in standards and scholarly publishing hard-code numbers."
14:50:44 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "That was me - and I'd like brady to read over it..."
14:53:36 <HeatherF> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp-ucr/ has been updated with the latest discussion points
14:56:59 <ivan> Heather rocks
14:59:09 <HeatherF> Heather needs to do better with section tags
14:59:15 <HeatherF> Just did another update to fix that.
14:59:23 <HeatherF> Refresh early, refresh often!
15:03:13 <NickRuffilo> Markus: "Regarding transitions, I think we are good.  Heather/Dave know that we hope to have some activity about page transitions.  We want a guru to join the IG and will have a placeholder for those use cases now."
15:03:14 <tzviya> q?
15:03:57 <NickRuffilo> ...: "That means in terms of CSS list, the 3rd thing we wanted to discuss is the same thing that has tormented us in epub-land - who is in charge of the presentation?  Whether or not there is any use cases or functional requirements that we want to put in here in order to minimize the risk."
15:04:14 <NickRuffilo> ...: "What basically is the way to fix this.  Are there use-cases we need to spell out on the road to that.
15:04:41 <NickRuffilo> Dave: "This is almost a case where epub is ahead of the web.  Almost every epub reading system has reasoanbly easy ways for users to cusomtize what they see.  this is easier than most web-pages."
15:04:55 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "The use case is that readers want to maintain this ability even if they move on the web.  "
15:05:36 <NickRuffilo> Dave:" There are fundamental use cases for the reader that they want to pick their font size.  CSS in general is working on this hierarchy of needs that the reader's choices outweigh the creator's choices which outweigh the browser's choices."
15:06:17 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "Can we add to the use case that publishers in many areas are under a legislation that requires much stronger accessibility level than websites and therefore they do have requirements like we just said.  Also for legal reasons?  Or is that too much to say?"
15:06:30 <NickRuffilo> Markus: "Is there something that sets the bar higher for ebooks than the web?"
15:06:31 <HeatherF> OUtside of accessibility, we also have that nifty use case on "Configurability of Important Resources" and Chef Bob's situation.
15:06:55 <tzviya> q+
15:06:59 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "It's a legislation?  For exmaple books for university students are much more accessible than websites because of fear of being sued..."
15:07:12 <NickRuffilo> ...: "Might just mean that those markets will sue them if the markets are not accessible."
15:07:47 <pkra> childe?
15:07:53 <pkra> child.
15:07:55 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: "Legislative areas, at least in the US,, the requirements are actually on the universities.  So the universities won't buy the books."
15:08:19 <HeatherF> Sound is coming off of Luc's connection.
15:08:36 <HeatherF> That's currently what's interfering with Tzviya. WebEx doesn't handle collision gracefully.
15:08:42 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: "At least in the US - the legislation goes to the universities.  Unis have to provide resources to students that are accessible, so they won't buy a book that isn't accessible.  So that ultimately falls on the publishers.  It's difficult to write the requirement using legislation."
15:08:58 <rdeltour> q+
15:09:07 <tzviya> q-
15:09:20 <clapierre> q+
15:09:53 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "The fact that you can change the font.  A web designer might choose to say: 'so what, websites can get along without it, why would we care?'  My answer would be that publishers are possibly under a much more stringent pressure in making more accessible things than the average website designer is."
15:09:53 <NickRuffilo> q+
15:09:54 <tzviya> ack rd
15:10:07 <tzviya> acl cl
15:11:25 <NickRuffilo> Charles: "I'm thinking of 2 things.  One is with DAISY and Benetech we're working on an epub specification that would have items put into metadata.  As far as fonts and things like that, I can see a use-case for a dyslexic person to want a different font - and as far as universities wanting different items to ensure accessibility - so it should address that issue."
15:11:41 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: "Is there a use-case that goes along with it?"
15:11:56 <mgylling> q+
15:12:02 <mgylling> ack cla
15:12:36 <dauwhe> q+
15:12:55 <NickRuffilo> Romain: "I wanted to talk about the ebook ecosystem - there is the book developer, the publisher, and the reading system developer.  In the web there is the web developer and the web browser - which is a huge difference in the priority.  We should reflect that in the document/use-cases."
15:13:40 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "If we want this analogy, we leave out the website designer, which is the equivalent of the publisher.  I'm not sure it's fair to make this difference."
15:13:51 <tzviya> q?
15:14:02 <NickRuffilo> Romain: "I meant to say that the reading system developer is not represented in the web world - it's new to the ecosystem..."
15:14:31 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "It's the browser developer.  You ahve the browser & reading system developer.  And you have an intermediate layer that generates the ebook or website."
15:15:02 <NickRuffilo> Romain: "I disagree because most Reading System developers use browser components, so they have to deal with the browser features but add items on top, so it's an additional piece."
15:15:30 <tzviya> ack ni
15:16:07 <ShaneM> user stylesheets are not really supported by modern browsers FYI
15:19:22 <tzviya> ack mg
15:20:18 <tzviya> q?
15:20:33 <NickRuffilo> Markus: "There is an API missing from the browser stack to have a styling/layout decision between the user and the publisher
15:21:30 <NickRuffilo> markus:" This could be a Houdini issue, but we want use-cases that highlight these issues.  Reading system implementers such as brady can help to flesh this out."
15:21:54 <NickRuffilo> Markus: "We're not going to fight that the user needs access to certain display elements."
15:22:15 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "It may seem embarassing, but it's not there, and this community needs it more than others."
15:23:45 <NickRuffilo> Markus: "Those two paragraphs when revised could make it in.  And the final thing which was a question in the beginning.  A simplified version of the difference between the epub world and the web.  The content provider - regardless who, and the user agent and then the user.  in the epub world, all excert changes on the style.  On the web, only 1.  In the epub world, it's a problem, because it's
15:23:45 <NickRuffilo> a big problem because they want their content to look good in all systems.  They both have problems but completely different."
15:24:00 <NickRuffilo> Markus: "Where do we want to end up?"
15:24:37 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "We're back to your first paragraph.  There's a good reason why it is what it is.  That's the use-case.  We have to have a clear way about why the publishing world has approached it in this way."
15:25:25 <NickRuffilo> Markus: "Not saying we should omit users.  The culture clash is that in the ebook world, user-agents do changes to the styles.  The argument is that there are so many broken ebooks that look like crap.  I'm sure there are bad websites, but browsers don't fix them.  That's the clash of tradition.  "
15:25:50 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: "What's happened in the ebook world, is that it's mostly retailers, so they're vetting what they sell.  For browsers, it's open, there's nothing to sell..
15:25:51 <mgylling> q?
15:26:42 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: "The reading systems do interact with the CSS - and the publishers complain about that.  The RS offer tons of options, which is only possible because the RS gets in the way."
15:27:28 <NickRuffilo> Markus: "Content producers spend 90% of the cost is on User Agents treating books differently.  That culture/organization is not carried into the future.  Is there anything we can do?"
15:27:29 <NickRuffilo> q+
15:27:34 <tzviya> ack da
15:28:18 <NickRuffilo> Dave: "I agree with markus - it's a really hard problem and it's fundamental to portable documents viewed on someone elses server.  It's core to the security problem that I'm not sure if you did a good job, but I have to still display it."
15:29:39 <NickRuffilo> Dave: "The web has faced a related problem (the performance of websites in general) that people throw so much crap in their websites, where mobile performance is horrible - so now you have things like google AMP - by making the rules drastically tighter.  One potential solution is to say 'no this cannot be a free-for-all' if you want to play in my sandbox you have to play by my rules.  It's
15:29:39 <NickRuffilo> horrible, but I'm not sure what other options there are out there..."
15:30:08 <NickRuffilo> q-
15:30:08 <tzviya> ack ni
15:33:40 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:34:28 <tzviya> ack bi
15:34:55 <NickRuffilo> Bill: "One of the big points that came out of Bordeaux was transparency - the inability of what would be done or to predict what would be done."
15:35:22 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: "I think we've defined what has gone wrong in epub so that we can write clear use-cases."
15:37:27 <NickRuffilo> heather: "there are a couple of points where I understand the issue, and I hear requirements, but I'm struggling with what should the use-case be.  I didn't hear anything new out of those things about 'who's in charge of presentation'  Did I miss something?"
15:39:14 <NickRuffilo> Brady: "Example: 'say I'm reading a programming book that's in a sans-serif book, so as I user I want to change the font to be this lovely serif I have involved.  I switch the font.  The reading system needs to understand that I want to read in this font - but the reading system needs to know that the code examples are a specific font.  So there needs to be a knowledge between the publisher, the
15:39:14 <NickRuffilo> reading system, and the user to know that body text gets changed but not the code examples."
15:39:48 <tzviya> q?
15:39:50 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: "Manifest?  Or next steps?"
15:40:29 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "I found this very good.  Do we want to repeat this before september?"
15:40:40 <NickRuffilo> 1+ (half day is also nice as it doesn't kill ALL my productivity)
15:41:01 <HeatherF> q+
15:41:06 <tzviya> ack h
15:41:09 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: "Heather did most of the next steps.  We definitely have some use-cases in the issue tracker.  "
15:41:24 <HeatherF> still hear me?
15:41:29 <HeatherF> I think webex just crashed
15:41:30 <NickRuffilo> Heather - no audio
15:41:31 <HeatherF> charming thing
15:41:42 <HeatherF> ok - quick sum up: there are more issues coming in that I need to integrate
15:41:59 <HeatherF> and, if anyone is going to be at SSP, I'd be happy to hold a small working session there for further cleanup
15:42:46 <tzviya> q?
15:42:49 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: "Other next steps..."
15:43:21 <NickRuffilo> Markus: "We have incoming use cases from Bill K and at least 2 of the sub-groups.  Archival, Accessibility...  Those need to be integrated.  I suppose ..."
15:43:38 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: "We have some security use-cases as well.  We don't have anyone in charge of it, just some people add items..."
15:43:45 <NickRuffilo> Markus: "The issue tracker stuff."
15:44:29 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "These are the use cases.  Then we have to assign the requirements for use-cases all over the document.  That's another big thing that we have to do.  The use cases should be sort of... not exactly equal.  Some are long and others are one or two paragraphs.  Not sure if heather can hear us..."
15:45:28 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: "Shane knows magic tricks about getting them together."
15:45:52 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: "We just gave lots of work to Heather - is anyone helping heather?"
15:46:14 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "Heather, you are in the driving seat, but please call out.  I'm happy to help in any way you want me to help, but you tell me what to do."
15:47:02 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: "Romain and I volunteered to help as well."
15:47:34 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "I'd like to have a feeling of planning"
15:47:37 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: "Timeline..."
15:47:58 <pkra> sorry for being so quiet (and mostly not actually around due to technical difficulties). It was good to learn more about the topics.
15:48:22 <NickRuffilo> Heather: "I cannot assign them dates, but on the editorial side is there a driving function?  Something that would add urgency?
15:48:38 <clapierre> a11y team hopes to get our use cases in by end of August as was mentioned earlier.
15:48:48 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "By TPAC meeting in september, everythign needs to be publishable
15:49:00 <TimCole> q+
15:49:07 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "That would be the ideal goal..."
15:49:50 <tzviya> ack tim
15:50:07 <HeatherF> Nick: :-D
15:50:12 <NickRuffilo> tim: "I'll try to work with nicholas to talk about what is needed to get the usecases into shape
15:50:37 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:50:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/25-dpub-minutes.html ivan
15:50:44 <NickRuffilo> tim: "So the next 4-5 weeks we'll spend time."
15:50:45 <NickRuffilo> q+
15:50:50 <HeatherF> If DPUB meets Monday and Tuesday, I might actually be able to fly in and then just fly from LIsbon to Helsinki Tuesday night so I can be at NORDUnet from Wednesday through Friday
15:50:57 <tzviya> ack ni
15:51:00 <HeatherF> I'll look into it
15:52:05 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: "ivan/markus/I will figure out our schedule and will figure things out."
15:52:49 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: "So a final draft by september, so maybe a first draft in june/july?  Charles said the accessibility ones would be in August.  With vacation schedules, I'd want to get something earlier than August as it's difficult to get in touch with people."
15:52:50 <clapierre> we will see what we can do :)
15:53:11 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "I virtual face-to-face in the end of June would be good timing.  If heather - you think you'll have a document in a decent state."
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15:54:55 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "Having single use-cases that require some discussion should happen during the monday calls.  Jumping a bit ahead, putting the security use-cases for monday - is that realistic?"
15:56:35 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:56:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/25-dpub-minutes.html ivan
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16:00:49 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:00:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/25-dpub-minutes.html ivan
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