16:27:19 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:27:19 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/05/19-aria-irc
16:27:21 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:27:23 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
16:27:23 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
16:27:24 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
16:27:24 <trackbot> Date: 19 May 2016
16:27:30 <janina> agenda?
16:27:54 <janina> zakim, clear agenda
16:27:54 <Zakim> agenda cleared
16:29:31 <janina> present+ Janina
16:29:34 <janina> Chair: Janina
16:30:42 <fesch> fesch has joined #aria
16:32:05 <LJWatson> LJWatson has joined #aria
16:32:16 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
16:33:12 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
16:33:35 <mck> mck has joined #aria
16:34:08 <LJWatson> present+ LJWatson
16:34:54 <jongund> present+
16:35:02 <jongund> scribe jongund
16:35:11 <jongund> present+ jongund
16:35:21 <MichielBijl> present+ MichielBijl
16:35:29 <janina> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016May/0135.html
16:35:50 <jongund> TOPICS: jongund
16:36:17 <fesch> present+ fesch
16:36:57 <jongund> CS: Discussing contact John Jensen
16:37:18 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
16:37:24 <jongund> MK: That is a nice development
16:37:31 <jongund> JS: Nice
16:37:31 <jamesn> present+ JamesNurthen
16:37:41 <jemma> jemma has joined #aria
16:37:45 <mck> present+ matt_king
16:37:50 <jongund> JS: The goal is to get ARIA out in June
16:38:14 <jemma> present+ JaeunJemmaKu
16:38:22 <jongund> TOPIC: CFC for last weeks actions
16:38:24 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
16:38:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/19-aria-minutes.html jamesn
16:38:46 <jongund> Actions 1743 2059 1524
16:39:14 <joanie> action-1743
16:39:14 <trackbot> action-1743 -- Matthew King to Put aria-activedescendant on application and request wg review -- due 2016-03-31 -- PENDINGREVIEW
16:39:14 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1743
16:39:23 <jongund> JS: There have been no comments, so by default they will be approved
16:39:40 <jongund> TOPIC: Initiate a review of the spec for feature freeze in June
16:39:47 <Eli_Weger> Eli_Weger has joined #aria
16:39:54 <jongund> JS: Goal CR June 16th
16:40:06 <jongund> MK: I thought it was a psuedo last call
16:40:17 <jongund> MK: Feature freeze June 9th
16:40:35 <jongund> MK: Before June 9th, everyone do a sweep of the document
16:41:09 <jongund> MK: In the editors call we want a top to bottom review
16:41:30 <jongund> MK: There is not any time between June 9th and 16th to make changes
16:41:44 <jongund> JS: It depends on how severe the issue is
16:42:08 <jongund> MK: June 16th is when all of the issues must be resoloved for pub on June 16th
16:42:25 <jongund> JS: Please look at the spec top to bottom
16:42:36 <jongund> JS: Hopefully there are no major issue
16:42:54 <jongund> JS: Any other questions, the usual proceedure to have a final review
16:43:19 <jongund> TOPIC: Separator role and autocomplete
16:43:35 <jongund> MK: I'll put a URL in for a branch
16:43:57 <mck> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action2069-separator/aria/aria.html
16:44:20 <jongund> MK: I will describe the issue
16:44:28 <jongund> MK: Issue 1028
16:44:52 <jongund> MK: Currently the separator within a menu or content, to divide content
16:45:05 <jemma> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action2069-separator/aria/aria.html#separator
16:45:10 <jongund> MK: It is the same as HR element in accessibility apis
16:46:08 <jongund> MK: It is a scrutural element, but then it also can be used as an interactive sepearator for like movable windows
16:46:08 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
16:46:48 <joanie> q+ To ask why ATs cannot look at role + state to conclude that a separator is a splitter
16:46:53 <janina> q?
16:47:11 <jongund> MK: You can make it focusable, but AT does not support any keyboard interaction, so keys are not passed through to the application, since it is a structural role
16:47:36 <fesch> q? To ask is Matt talking about separator or splitter
16:47:42 <jongund> MK: We just take the interactive language away from the separator role, let separator be separators
16:47:53 <fesch> q+ To ask is Matt talking about separator or splitter
16:47:54 <jongund> MK: Look at the branch
16:48:48 <fesch> ack fe
16:48:48 <Zakim> fesch, you wanted to ask is Matt talking about separator or splitter
16:48:57 <jongund> MK: I added a splitter role, it might not have time to make ARIA 1.1
16:49:19 <jongund> MK: It supports aria-expanded, so I took that off
16:49:35 <jongund> MK: I think we need to remove the text either way
16:49:47 <janina> ack b
16:49:51 <janina> ack j
16:49:51 <Zakim> joanie, you wanted to ask why ATs cannot look at role + state to conclude that a separator is a splitter
16:49:58 <jongund> Joanie: My think is about splitters
16:50:12 <janina> ack f
16:50:12 <jongund> Joanie: I want to stay on que
16:50:28 <jongund> FE: I took my self off que, my comment is on splitter
16:50:28 <janina> q?
16:51:47 <jongund> MK: Splitter is what we could do to close the gap between separator and the feature need
16:52:00 <jongund> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action2069-separator/aria/aria.html#splitter
16:52:09 <jongund> MK: Discussion?
16:52:26 <jongund> CS: Sounds like at great 2.0 proposal
16:52:42 <jongund> MK: You want to push it off
16:52:59 <jongund> CS: It is a good idea, but not enough time to implement
16:53:03 <jongund> FE: same
16:53:24 <jongund> Joanie: I have a followup on my e-mail and the implementation issue
16:54:35 <jongund> JD: The ARIA stack, that is not exposed to AT, all I know is that I can hack around it
16:54:41 <janina> q?
16:54:55 <jongund> JD: Plateforms already has splitter roles, at least mine does
16:55:35 <jongund> JD: User agendt could see it is a separator and tabindex, then map to splitter role, otherwise separator role
16:55:52 <jongund> JD: ATs can already deal with this
16:56:04 <jongund> JD: This is so easy to implement
16:56:13 <jongund> MK: I am glad to hear your perspective
16:56:49 <jongund> MK: If it is as simple as separators as whether they are focusable, ....
16:57:02 <cyns> q+ to say that the spec lockdown is separte from implementation. It's fine for Orca to implement even if this isn't in 1.1
16:57:15 <jongund> MK: We do give ATs specific instructions to pass keys through for widgets
16:57:32 <jongund> MK: Checkboxes and buttons have default actions
16:57:48 <joanie> q+ to respond (but after others can take their turns)
16:58:25 <jongund> CS: All great ideasare good, but we need to lock down to get implementation
16:58:28 <fesch> +1 to feature lockdown
16:58:32 <janina> ack cy
16:58:32 <Zakim> cyns, you wanted to say that the spec lockdown is separte from implementation. It's fine for Orca to implement even if this isn't in 1.1
16:58:38 <joanie> +1 to lockdown
16:58:39 <jongund> MK: Is it reasonably implementable
16:58:57 <jongund> MK: We only need two implementations
16:59:08 <jamesn> q+
16:59:21 <jongund> FE: It maybe great, but we have not had a time to review
16:59:32 <jongund> CS: Joanie can still implement
16:59:34 <jongund> q+
16:59:41 <LJWatson> Q+
16:59:50 <jongund> MK: If we don't make a change in the spec
17:00:26 <jongund> CS: Browsers and ATs can do exploratory implementation
17:00:37 <jongund> LW: In HTML 5.1
17:00:39 <jamesn> q?
17:00:53 <jongund> JS: Can you hear me
17:00:55 <jongund> MK: Yes
17:01:03 <janina> q?
17:01:24 <mck> q?
17:01:37 <janina> ack jo
17:01:57 <jongund> LW: With HTML5.1 we are not putting in new feature, we will branch to 5.2, not advisable for 1.1
17:02:48 <jongund> JD: This would go into the core AMMs, a possible solution, not change anything in the spec, change in the AMM
17:03:02 <jongund> JD: I don't think we should change the spec
17:03:27 <jongund> JD: We will probably not get splitter role in 1.1
17:03:36 <jongund> JD: Just change the AMM
17:04:06 <jongund> MK: The ARIA 1.0 spec that separators can be static and dynamic, but there is not implementation
17:04:15 <LJWatson> s/LW: With HTML5.1 we are not putting in new feature, we will branch to 5.2, not advisable for 1.1/lw: With HTML5.1 we have decided against rushing through substantive new features so close to CR and suggest doing the same with ARIA 1.1/
17:04:22 <jongund> MK: We don't make normative requirements in the ARIA spec
17:04:52 <fesch> q+ to say would adding a splitter affect posinset and setsize
17:04:59 <joanie> ack me
17:04:59 <Zakim> joanie, you wanted to respond (but after others can take their turns)
17:05:00 <jongund> MK: All the spec changes are editorial
17:05:16 <LJWatson> zakim, ack me
17:05:16 <Zakim> I see jamesn, fesch on the speaker queue
17:05:18 <jongund> MK: If is focuable you do it this way, if not do it this way
17:05:41 <janina> q?
17:05:42 <jongund> MK: I will withdraw this proposal, and I will make editorial changes based on JD suggestions
17:05:50 <janina> ack ja
17:06:22 <jongund> JN: I maybe in correct, but there are plateforms allow separators to get focus in menus
17:06:34 <jongund> MK: We consider it a mistake when that happens
17:06:46 <jongund> JN: Thats OK, just wanted to check
17:07:03 <jamesn> ack me
17:07:07 <jongund> JN: This is not a new requirement, if we can do it in the AAM that is great
17:07:11 <janina> ack fe
17:07:11 <Zakim> fesch, you wanted to say would adding a splitter affect posinset and setsize
17:07:59 <jongund> FE: Does adding a splitter role will effect posinset, and setsize, if they are interactive then there would need to be a change in the calc
17:08:10 <jongund> MK: This is only in a window splitter
17:08:15 <fesch> ack fe
17:08:50 <jongund> MK: I will revise my proposal based on today's discussion, action 2069
17:09:16 <jongund> MK: The group has proposed an alternative to 1028, I will run with it
17:09:23 <jongund> MK: I will bring it back next week
17:09:27 <jongund> JS: Sounds good
17:09:57 <jongund> TOPIC: Any progress on keyshortcuts?
17:10:08 <jongund> MK: We will discuss in the APG call on monday
17:10:12 <jongund> MK: I am on track
17:10:17 <jongund> JS: That was easy
17:10:33 <jongund> TOPIC: Issue 2067 aria-owns
17:10:43 <jongund> JN: I have not had time to get to it
17:10:46 <jongund> JS: ok
17:11:31 <jongund> MK: What Bryan sent to the list, there are implementation problems due to the spec language, so it maybe more editorial to clarify
17:11:42 <jongund> MK: This is pretty important stuff
17:12:02 <jongund> JN: When I accepted, I was not sure I had time to work on it
17:12:11 <jongund> TOPIC: Action 2068
17:13:41 <janina> q?
17:13:54 <jongund> BG:  These are not true of other widget roles, children need to have presentational roles
17:14:01 <jongund> MK: In the action itself
17:14:09 <fesch> action-2068
17:14:09 <trackbot> action-2068 -- Bryan Garaventa to Address issue 1006 -- due 2016-05-19 -- OPEN
17:14:09 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2068
17:14:13 <mck> action-2068?
17:14:13 <trackbot> action-2068 -- Bryan Garaventa to Address issue 1006 -- due 2016-05-19 -- OPEN
17:14:13 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2068
17:15:05 <janina> q?
17:15:07 <jongund> MK: I agrre with ever single one, ATs are already doing this
17:15:25 <jongund> MK: Authors and user agents have to be on the same page
17:15:42 <jongund> BG: The actual link role, exception
17:16:20 <jemma> more info can be found here. https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1006
17:16:23 <jongund> MK: How would AT know when it present a link know that the link contains semantics, it would have to say complicated link, ...
17:16:27 <jamesn> q+ combobox?
17:16:41 <jamesn> q+ to ask about combobox
17:16:45 <jamesn> ack com
17:17:17 <jongund> MK: We could use our imagination on what ATs could do, it could be mapped differently, you can look inside of the link to see if there are semantics, then some way for people to explore the semantics
17:17:30 <fesch> q+
17:17:40 <jongund> MK: We would need to write some "should" language for ATs
17:17:56 <jongund> BG: I find it a problem
17:18:16 <jongund> BG: I am just talking about structural elements
17:18:25 <jongund> MK: Does HTML allow that though?
17:18:53 <jongund> MK: It can contain block elements, but not interactive elements, have not read for a few years
17:18:55 <janina> ack ja
17:18:55 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to ask about combobox
17:19:06 <jongund> JN: I agree with most, what about combobox>
17:19:23 <jongund> BG: That was before 1.1, we can take that one out
17:19:26 <jongund> JN: ok
17:19:36 <jamesn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1006
17:19:41 <jongund> button
17:19:42 <jongund> img
17:19:44 <jongund> math
17:19:45 <jongund> progressbar
17:19:47 <jongund> separator
17:19:48 <jongund> scrollbar
17:19:50 <jongund> slider
17:20:04 <jongund> JS: FE is on que
17:20:22 <jongund> GE: The ones I am worried about menu item and treeitem
17:20:56 <jongund> BG: It doesn't limit us to additional controls, difference between an interactive widget and container
17:21:17 <jongund> FE: If you put a custom widget, like a datepicker
17:21:27 <jongund> MK: You can't do that
17:21:56 <jongund> MK: You have a menu item that says datepicker and pressing the menu it opens a date picker dialog
17:22:08 <jongund> FE: What open the menu button?
17:22:35 <jongund> MK: The menuitem opens the dialog, sometimes ... is used to indicate a dialog
17:22:43 <jongund> FE: Even in treeview
17:22:57 <jongund> MK: It is not common, but it could be done
17:23:14 <jongund> BG: We are talking about non-composite widgets
17:23:29 <jongund> BG: Menubar is a composite widget
17:23:44 <jongund> BG: It can be rendered adjacent to the ....
17:24:14 <janina> q?
17:24:18 <fesch> ack me
17:24:19 <janina> ack fe
17:24:40 <jongund> JS: WHere are we with this proposal?  Is it acceptable?
17:25:01 <jongund> MK: I think yes, I am working on proposed text, removed combobox
17:25:50 <mck> proposed resolution: Add children presentationaal true to checkbox, menuitem, menuitemcheckbox, menuitemradio, option, radio, searchbox, spinbutton, switch, tab, textbox, and treeitem,
17:26:21 <jongund> JS: Any objections?
17:27:15 <mck> proposed resolution: Add children presentationaal true to checkbox, link, menuitem, menuitemcheckbox, menuitemradio, option, radio, searchbox, spinbutton, switch, tab, textbox, and treeitem.
17:27:31 <jongund> JD: I have seen both native and web, that there is an "X" to clear current results, or caps lock indicators, textboxes and ...
17:27:57 <jongund> CS: All of the edit controls in Windows support these features
17:28:26 <jongund> MK: When you are making a rich text editor, has to expose the structural information
17:28:32 <jongund> JS: I have a comment
17:29:04 <jongund> MK: We don't say anything about host language semantics
17:29:59 <jongund> JS: Regarding spin button, those web apps and naitve controls, input type equal number, they have incrementer/dec buttons
17:30:23 <jongund> JS: They show up in accessibility apis as objects, on purpose
17:30:39 <jongund> CS: They are needed for touch support
17:30:57 <jongund> CS: For some controls they are actually inside
17:31:11 <jongund> MK: SR users use swip up and down
17:31:44 <jongund> BG: The right and left is the inc/dec buttons, this works on touch screen devices, button would need to be a compsite widget
17:32:15 <jongund> MK: Right it is not written as composite, and you need a text box
17:32:23 <jongund> CS: Sounds like a ARIA 2.0
17:32:35 <jongund> MK: I think we should leave it in
17:32:48 <mck> proposed resolution: Add children presentationaal true to checkbox, link, menuitem, menuitemcheckbox, menuitemradio, option, radio, spinbutton, switch, tab, and treeitem.
17:32:51 <jongund> FE: It seems we are changing the issue, because we have not talked about it
17:33:06 <jongund> CS: Accessibility APIs have changed since ARIA 1.0
17:33:16 <jongund> MK: I repoposed
17:33:45 <jongund> FE: I object, we have not thought about it enough
17:34:09 <jongund> MK: I disagree, this is a long standing issue, and we have been working on it for 6 months
17:34:20 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
17:34:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/19-aria-minutes.html jamesn
17:34:47 <jongund> JD: I have concerns about link, some people put a heading inside a link
17:34:58 <jongund> MK: There is no way to see a heading insde of a link
17:35:16 <jongund> JD: IA2 provodies
17:35:47 <jongund> BG: All of the weird things people put stuff in links, without create ghost links
17:36:09 <jongund> CS: We have dealing with those, it is not valid HTML
17:36:38 <jongund> MK: DIVs inside of links are valid, but I am not sure about headers,
17:36:59 <joanie> s/headers/headings/
17:37:06 <jongund> MB: You can put block level elements inside of links, just not interactive linlks
17:37:41 <jongund> JS:  DO we have a resolution?
17:38:15 <jongund> MK: Do we need to investigate what is valid in HTML, because I think link is really important to handle, and link is the biggest problem
17:38:35 <jongund> JD: I support more research and a formal proposal
17:38:39 <janina> q?
17:38:52 <jongund> MK: Is it valid to put a heading inside of a link?
17:39:35 <jongund> MK: We need to find out what is valid HTML and what it says, if it allows more we may need to change our link role
17:39:56 <jongund> BG: I think all the other ones are safe, except link
17:40:17 <jongund> BG: Some people make a whole table a clickable link
17:40:24 <jongund> JN: I have not seen that
17:41:40 <jongund> MK: We will not allow ...
17:42:01 <jongund> JD: There is coding example in the HTML 5.1 spec
17:42:45 <jongund> JD: Basically it shows how links can used to wrap, headings, tables.....
17:43:11 <jongund> MK: We need to take link out of the proposal, and we need to figure out what ATs
17:43:15 <mck> Rewritten proposal ...
17:43:17 <mck> proposed resolution: Add children presentationaal true to checkbox, menuitem, menuitemcheckbox, menuitemradio, option, radio, searchbox, spinbutton, switch, tab, textbox, and treeitem.
17:43:41 <jongund> JS: I hate to here the spec promotes these techniques
17:43:51 <jongund> FE: Searchbox and textbox out
17:43:51 <joanie> https://www.w3.org/TR/html51/single-page.html#example-17ea2c7d
17:44:39 <jongund> FE: I suggest that we take a week to look at this
17:44:44 <mck> Fixed ... removed textbox and searchbox ... proposed resolution: Add children presentationaal true to checkbox, menuitem, menuitemcheckbox, menuitemradio, option, radio, spinbutton, switch, tab, and treeitem.
17:44:49 <jongund> JS: I think that is a good idea
17:45:05 <jongund> MK: I think it is finally there
17:45:25 <jongund> MK: The CFC is about, 6 days of consensus
17:45:53 <jongund> MK: If peole have the week to object, and we can discuss next week
17:46:16 <jongund> JS: We would log a resolution, RS would need to send out a CFC
17:46:56 <jongund> JS: I would log it and document FE concerns, rich can decide on the CFC
17:47:21 <jongund> JS: ANy object of logging this as a resolution
17:47:37 <jongund> resolution: Add children presentationaal true to checkbox, menuitem, menuitemcheckbox, menuitemradio, option, radio, spinbutton, switch, tab, and treeitem
17:47:57 <jongund> RESOLUTION: Add children presentationaal true to checkbox, menuitem, menuitemcheckbox, menuitemradio, option, radio, spinbutton, switch, tab, and treeitem.
17:48:29 <jongund> TOPIC: Action 2044 presentation role
17:48:39 <fesch> action-2044
17:48:39 <trackbot> action-2044 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Separate out text from role="presentation/none" so that a single location may be referenced in core-aam. -- due 2016-04-12 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:48:39 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2044
17:48:51 <jongund> JS: His note says it is important, and suggest move to ARIA 2.0
17:48:56 <jongund> JS: Discussion?
17:49:32 <jongund> MK: Is this just editorial?
17:50:17 <jongund> JD: One of the motivators, was the SVG spec, to have a single ref
17:50:23 <jongund> FE: That was one of the things
17:50:42 <jongund> JD: If we postpone to 2.0, it might impact waht SVG needs
17:51:03 <jongund> MK: All of the exceptions, there are two many places and put all in one document
17:51:40 <jongund> JD: My understand that is spread out in the ARIA spec, there needs to be a single link for other specs to reference
17:52:09 <jongund> MK: That is editorial, you can make editorial changes during CR, if needed since it doesn't change the requirement
17:52:25 <jongund> MK: Why do all editorial changes need to be done before CR
17:52:39 <jongund> JS: we can make changes after CR, but it delays things
17:52:49 <jongund> CSL I didn' think it did
17:53:43 <jongund> FE: They can describe what can overrule them, the exceptions need to be put in one doc
17:54:10 <jongund> MK: O don't see anything in the action about changing the rules
17:54:17 <jemma> Editorial Note regarding the ARIA 1.1 none role.  In ARIA 1.1, the working group plans to introduce none as a synonym to the presentation role, due to author confusion surrounding the intended meaning of the word "presentation" or "presentational." Many individuals erroneously consider role="presentation" to be synonymous with aria-hidden="true", and we believe role="none" conveys the actual meaning more unambiguously.  Until implementations include sufficient suppo
17:54:19 <jongund> s/O/I
17:54:48 <jongund> JS: We want to rewrite it to reduce its size, and that there is not enough time in the ARIA 1.1 time frame
17:55:00 <jongund> FE: He is talking about ...
17:56:10 <jongund> ... dicussion of all the exceptions of presentation in ARIA ...
17:57:38 <jongund> MK: I don't want to live with this for the next 4 years if we put it in ARIA 2.0
17:57:47 <jongund> JS: The question is of resources
17:58:00 <jongund> FE: How does it affect other document
17:58:52 <jongund> FE: HTML has different rules on this rule, and SVG has other rules
17:59:07 <jongund> JS: CSS maybe different too
17:59:21 <jongund> MK: Maybe someone not working n testing does this
17:59:43 <jongund> FE: MC could answer why this is a big deal
18:00:11 <jongund> JS: It is a thorny issue, we are at the end of the hour
18:00:21 <jongund> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:00:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/19-aria-minutes.html jongund
18:00:25 <jongund> me too
18:00:27 <jemma> me/I was cut off since the meeting time ended.
18:03:01 <janina> Thanks everyone! Good meeting!
18:03:18 <jemma> bye
18:04:20 <jemma> thanks
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