12:00:20 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wot
12:00:20 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/05/18-wot-irc
12:01:41 <Yingying> Yingying has joined #wot
12:02:17 <michael> michael has joined #wot
12:02:30 <kaz> Meeting: WoT IG
12:02:42 <dape> dape has joined #wot
12:02:57 <katsu> katsu has joined #wot
12:03:11 <taki> taki has joined #wot
12:03:43 <kaz> Present: Kaz_Ashimura, Dave_Raggett, Achille_Zappa, Masato_Ohura, Matthias_Kovatsch, Ryuichi_Matsukura, Soumya_Kanti_Datta, Yun_Li, Daniel_Peintner, Michael_Koster
12:04:00 <kaz> present+ Claes_Nilsson
12:04:09 <kaz> present+ Darko_Anicic
12:04:18 <kaz> present+ Takuki_Kamiya
12:04:23 <DarkoAnicic> DarkoAnicic has joined #wot
12:04:28 <kaz> present+ Tibor_Pardi
12:04:28 <DarkoAnicic> present+ DarkoAnicic
12:04:40 <Yingying> Present+ Yingying_Chen
12:04:53 <kaz> present+ Toru_Kawaguchi
12:05:10 <kaz> present+ Ali_Keraenen
12:05:18 <dape> present+ Daniel_Peintner
12:05:26 <kaz> present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch
12:05:47 <Claes> Claes has joined #wot
12:06:03 <sebastian> sebastian has joined #wot
12:06:10 <kaz> present+ Shuting_@@@
12:06:17 <sebastian> present sebastian_kaebisch
12:06:23 <sebastian> present+ sebastian_kaebisch
12:06:45 <kaz> present+ Nan_Wang
12:06:56 <Karen> Karen has joined #wot
12:07:03 <kaz> present+ Victor_Charpenay
12:07:08 <ryuichi> ryuichi has joined #wot
12:07:36 <kaz> q+
12:07:39 <Victor_Charpenay> Victor_Charpenay has joined #wot
12:08:32 <toru> toru has joined #wot
12:09:00 <mkovatsc> mkovatsc has joined #wot
12:09:07 <jhund> jhund has joined #wot
12:09:39 <kaz> topic: IG extension?
12:09:43 <kaz> kaz: until when?
12:09:50 <kaz> dsr: till the Beijing meeting
12:10:13 <kaz> kaz: the end of the meeting?
12:10:23 <kaz> ... or maybe we should simply aim the end of July
12:11:16 <k_nimura> k_nimura has joined #wot
12:11:19 <Yingying> Yingying has joined #wot
12:11:33 <kaz> sebasitan: possible to extend till the new IG Charter is ready?
12:11:51 <kaz> dsr: our Charter is already expired
12:12:00 <Claes> present+ Claes_Nilsson
12:13:06 <toru> present+ Toru_Kawaguchi
12:13:06 <kaz> kaz: so we need to provide the W3M a concrete date for our extension
12:13:23 <sebastian> we are back
12:14:13 <jhund>  present+ Johannes_Hund, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Victor_Charpenay, Matthias_Kovatsch, Darko_Anicic
12:14:20 <jhund> present
12:15:04 <sebastian> we have no audio
12:15:31 <mkovatsc> Audio crashed again - we try another solution
12:15:42 <kaz> kaz: the IG charter we're working on is for the working period for, e.g., 1-2 years, to finalize the deliverable documents
12:16:02 <mkovatsc> yes
12:16:07 <kaz> ... and after we launch the expected WG, we can recharter the IG with updated scope again
12:16:20 <kaz> present+ chat_ma
12:16:24 <Soumya> Soumya has joined #wot
12:16:39 <mkovatsc> Sebastian asked if it is possible to extend without expiration date, but to use "when re-charter becomes active"
12:16:42 <kaz> present+ Jim_@@@
12:16:53 <kaz> present+ Katsuyoshi_Naka
12:17:03 <Soumya> present+ Soumya
12:17:04 <Yingying> s/chat_ma/Chao_Ma/
12:17:05 <kaz> present+ Kazuaki_Nimura
12:17:44 <michael> I can hear Kaz and Daniel
12:17:48 <Soumya> i can hear you both
12:17:51 <Claes> Claes: I can hear you
12:17:55 <achille_z> achille_z has joined #wot
12:17:57 <N_Wang> N_Wang has joined #wot
12:18:15 <katsu> I can hear both of you
12:18:53 <DarkoAnicic_> DarkoAnicic_ has joined #wot
12:19:36 <kaz> matthias: ok
12:20:13 <kaz> ... are there any topics to discuss quickly?
12:20:44 <kaz> kaz: Dave is back with the W3M approval for the extension till the end of July
12:20:46 <Yingying> rrsagent, make minutes
12:20:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/18-wot-minutes.html Yingying
12:21:00 <kaz> dsr: They've approved our extension till the end of July
12:21:02 <DarkoAnicic> DarkoAnicic has joined #wot
12:21:08 <kaz> ... next step is review by one of the W3Mers
12:21:33 <kaz> kaz: who is the reviewer?
12:21:41 <kaz> dsr: need to find a candidate
12:21:53 <kaz> ... may be Philipp
12:22:04 <kaz> kaz: and might be Judy as well from the accessibility viewpoint
12:22:29 <kaz> topic: IG Charter
12:22:44 <kaz> -> http://w3c.github.io/wot/charters/wot-ig-2016.html draft IG Charter
12:22:56 <kaz> dsr: compilation of various pull requests
12:23:23 <akeranen> akeranen has joined #wot
12:23:23 <kaz> ... main changes are the sentence on the introduction section
12:24:49 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/2016/05/wot-ig-2016-alpha3.html alpha 3 version
12:25:06 <kaz> kaz: difference between this alpha3 version and the github version?
12:25:11 <kaz> dsr: need to check the diff
12:25:40 <kaz> ... added "Industry alliances and standards development organizations are looking to W3C to take the leadership in two critical areas: semantic interoperability and end to end security across different platforms." to the introduction
12:26:05 <kaz> ... scope section describes the relationship and the IG and the expected WG
12:26:17 <kaz> [[
12:26:17 <kaz> The Interest Group will identify requirements for standardization by exploring use cases and requirements for a broad range of application domains, and through examining the requirements for integrating a broad range of IoT platforms into the Web of Things.
12:26:18 <kaz> ]]
12:27:23 <kaz> dsr: bullet points describe the aim of the plugfest:
12:27:24 <kaz> [[
12:27:25 <kaz>     tests for conformity for recommendation track technology
12:27:25 <kaz>     test-drive upcoming or proposed tech for the recommendation track
12:27:25 <kaz>     outreach to other communities and new members (open day, demo track)
12:27:25 <kaz> ]]
12:28:14 <kaz> ... should have discussion now
12:28:19 <kaz> ... questions?
12:28:28 <akeranen> q+
12:28:32 <kaz> matthias: would agree with the current scope section
12:28:34 <kaz> q-
12:28:56 <kaz> ... bullet points and summary too
12:29:09 <kaz> ... outreach through requirements for other SDOs
12:29:21 <kaz> ack a
12:29:35 <kaz> ari: sent an email right before this call
12:29:44 <kaz> ... regarding semantic work
12:30:03 <mkovatsc> q+
12:30:07 <mkovatsc> q?
12:30:21 <kaz> ... we need to reuse existing mechanism generated by others
12:30:37 <kaz> dsr: people would like to see what this group do
12:30:43 <mkovatsc> q?
12:30:44 <kaz> ... and why they need to join this group
12:30:49 <kaz> ack m
12:31:00 <kaz> matthias: I'm fine
12:31:10 <kaz> ... and agree it's kind of too much
12:31:30 <kaz> ... it's not that W3C would rule overall things
12:31:33 <kaz> dsr: ok
12:31:42 <kaz> ari: that would be much better
12:31:52 <dsr> I will change the wording to “ looking to collaborate with W3C in two”
12:32:13 <kaz> ... and another point of mine is including semantic web groups
12:32:31 <kaz> ... would have discussion offline
12:32:33 <kaz> dsr: ok
12:32:42 <mkovatsc> q?
12:32:46 <toru> q+
12:32:54 <kaz> dsr: what about the "Scope Summary"?
12:33:01 <kaz> matthias: this is editorial
12:33:05 <mkovatsc> q?
12:33:06 <kaz> ack t
12:33:17 <kaz> toru: my colleague raised an issue
12:33:33 <kaz> ... would like to know...
12:33:39 <kaz> ... there are two things about testing
12:33:46 <kaz> ... plugfest and interoperability
12:33:51 <kaz> ... what is the difference?
12:34:19 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/163 issue-163
12:35:02 <kaz> dsr: the role of plugfest includes interoperability test
12:35:08 <dape> q+
12:35:22 <kaz> toru: deference between the roles by the WG and the IG?
12:35:42 <Victor> Victor has joined #wot
12:35:51 <kaz> matthias: different aspect of the plugfest
12:36:00 <kaz> ... conformity of implementation
12:36:05 <dape> q-
12:36:05 <kaz> q+
12:36:12 <kaz> ... demo-like approach
12:36:37 <kaz> toru: interoperability test by WG is for fixing the rec draft?
12:37:05 <kaz> q?
12:37:25 <kaz> dsr: in the W3C process, we need implementation reports for exiting CR
12:37:29 <Yingying_> Yingying_ has joined #wot
12:37:40 <kaz> ... check implementation
12:38:01 <kaz> q?
12:38:42 <kaz> kaz: in that case, it would be better to say "Testing for CR exit", etc., for the WG side in this figure
12:38:49 <jhund> jhund has joined #wot
12:38:55 <dsr> we will change tests for conformity for recommendation track technology to testing for CR exit or words to that effect
12:38:59 <jhund> q+
12:39:04 <kaz> kaz: would be less misleading
12:39:08 <kaz> ack k
12:39:09 <mkovatsc> ack kaz
12:39:14 <kaz> ack j
12:39:15 <mkovatsc> ack jhund
12:39:20 <kaz> jhund: three points
12:39:42 <kaz> ... would make a good future candidate using plugfest
12:40:05 <kaz> ... testing for comformity is misleading
12:40:26 <kaz> ... from the WG perspective, plugfest would help interoperability in public manners
12:40:33 <kaz> ... "conformity" is misleading
12:41:00 <kaz> dsr: test suite by the WG will be used for CR-PR transition
12:41:37 <kaz> ... maybe could replace the bullet by two ones
12:41:43 <kaz> ... e.g., @@@
12:42:18 <kaz> jhund: maybe you could put it into one bullet
12:42:25 <dsr> one on CR and the other on interoperabiity across different implementations
12:42:33 <kaz> ... the difference is maturity
12:43:01 <kaz> ... the purposes are different
12:43:44 <kaz> dsr: test suites are very comprehensive and different from what we're doing
12:44:03 <kaz> ... will update the bullet points and people can review it
12:44:20 <kaz> matthias: the first bullet point including "conformity" is misleading
12:44:40 <kaz> ... also the second point "test-drive", test will be driven by the WG
12:45:14 <kaz> ... new staff coming up to the IG
12:45:17 <dape> q+
12:45:31 <kaz> s/new/the first point is new/
12:45:43 <kaz> ... the second point is similar to what we've been doing
12:45:44 <kaz> q+
12:45:47 <kaz> ack d
12:46:06 <kaz> dape: plugfest is for the second point
12:46:28 <kaz> ... everyone should understand the difference between the first point and the second
12:46:38 <kaz> ... also the capitalization: PlugFest
12:46:46 <kaz> q?
12:46:49 <DarkoAnicic> DarkoAnicic has joined #wot
12:46:49 <kaz> ack k
12:47:36 <kaz> kaz: we should be clear between the difference
12:47:48 <kaz> dsr: will update the first point so that people can review it
12:48:02 <kaz> ... let's move ahead
12:48:13 <kaz> ... scope "Deliverables"
12:48:18 <kaz> s/scope //
12:48:21 <mkovatsc> q+
12:48:34 <kaz> ... discussion with Matthias and Johannes
12:49:32 <dape> q+
12:49:33 <kaz> ... Use Cases and Requirements
12:49:36 <kaz> ... Architecture
12:49:43 <kaz> ack m
12:50:04 <kaz> matthias: the first two deliverables are included in the previous charter
12:50:07 <kaz> ... quite easy to fix the pub date
12:50:15 <kaz> ... also positive for the IG to produce them
12:50:48 <kaz> ... and can concentrate new work architecture and current practice
12:51:00 <kaz> ... need editors' contributions
12:51:31 <kaz> ... who want to have the other two: end-to-end security acrros IoT platforms, semantic models and APIs
12:51:43 <kaz> ... additional deliverables may be added
12:52:04 <kaz> dsr: talking to other SDOs is one of our key values
12:52:26 <kaz> matthias: semantic models and apis
12:52:32 <Soumya> q+
12:52:43 <kaz> ... this is a useful document
12:52:56 <kaz> ... why do we need another one here?
12:52:58 <Soumya> I will support the new two deliverables
12:53:02 <dape> q-
12:53:18 <kaz> dsr: important role of semantics
12:53:31 <kaz> soumya: would support both the two new deliverables
12:53:50 <kaz> ... there is a notion of semantic web
12:54:16 <kaz> ... what we're doing is linking to semantics, so need to define some specific semantic model
12:54:27 <kaz> jhund: we had discussion yesterday
12:54:36 <kaz> ... how to see thin description, etc.
12:54:51 <kaz> ... the question is we have separate deliveralbles
12:55:05 <kaz> ... brought to a recommendation
12:55:11 <kaz> s/brought/would be brought/
12:55:43 <kaz> dsr: work on ontology by other groups
12:56:02 <kaz> ... what is the main constraint?
12:56:10 <kaz> ... we haven't done
12:56:19 <kaz> ... and we should take the lead for that
12:56:36 <kaz> matthias: my question is who would take the lead for these two work?
12:56:39 <kaz> soumya: me
12:56:41 <kaz> dsr: and me
12:57:05 <kaz> michael: interested in domain model using RDF, etc.
12:57:13 <kaz> ... W3C should focus on document formats
12:57:39 <kaz> ... how the TD would be used for annotation
12:57:51 <kaz> dsr: standardizing cross-domain metadata
12:58:06 <kaz> ... how to be used collaboratively with other SDOs
12:58:30 <kaz> q+
12:58:37 <kaz> ack s
12:58:41 <mkovatsc> q?
12:58:48 <mkovatsc> q+
12:58:54 <mkovatsc> ack k
12:59:13 <Yingying_> kaz: what is the difference between semantic model and TD?
12:59:13 <kaz> kaz: wondering the difference between this semantic model and TD
12:59:27 <Soumya> ack Soumya
12:59:34 <kaz> dsr: sensor should define data based on ontology
12:59:44 <Yingying_> s/kaz: what is the difference between semantic model and TD?//
12:59:47 <kaz> ... select services, apply constraints
12:59:57 <kaz> ... which ontology uses which semantics
13:00:33 <kaz> sebastian: basic idea of the capability
13:01:16 <kaz> dsr: we need a common understanding
13:01:22 <mkovatsc> q?
13:01:33 <kaz> i/need/if TD is the HTML of the Web of Things, then we would  not want to standardize the content of web pages
13:01:56 <kaz> matthias: would repeat who representing which company would work for it?
13:02:25 <kaz> michael: we need to see Thing Description as the deliverable
13:02:31 <kaz> ... that's the role of this group
13:02:38 <kaz> ... to work properly
13:02:42 <kaz> ... common language layer
13:03:05 <kaz> ... not sure how much survey is needed, though
13:03:32 <kaz> ... annotating thins
13:03:35 <kaz> s/thins/things
13:03:46 <kaz> dsr: role of the model
13:04:00 <kaz> ... collaboration with the other SDOs
13:04:26 <dsr> It is not just about thing descriptions
13:04:42 <kaz> matthias: why do we need this work item which don't have enough people support
13:05:06 <kaz> ... we're interested in working on Thing Description
13:05:19 <kajimoto> kajimoto has joined #wot
13:05:51 <kaz> dsr: report is a deliverable and part of the culture of plugfest
13:05:55 <kajimoto> My audio has trouble now... (kajimoto)
13:06:08 <kaz> ... there are various approaches on semantic information for IoT
13:06:39 <kaz> ... very important to show scalability
13:06:56 <kaz> ... if we don't do this, WoT won't be successful
13:07:28 <kaz> ... likewise security we would get new members for this as well
13:08:46 <kaz> jhund: @@@couldn't hear well
13:09:15 <kaz> matthias: how about include this into the current practices?
13:09:36 <kaz> soumya: let me rephrase what Dave is saying
13:10:05 <kaz> ... what we need here is generic framework/concept applicable to various frameworks
13:10:39 <kaz> sebastian: we have technology landscape, current practice documents
13:10:50 <kaz> ... I think this would make people confused
13:11:02 <kaz> dsr: don't think so
13:11:35 <kaz> jhund: why we couldn't do this within the tech landscape work?
13:11:56 <kaz> dsr: generic framework across the platforms
13:12:22 <kaz> ... how ontologies could be used
13:13:08 <kaz> nimura: @@@ couldn't hear and asked him to type-in
13:13:34 <k_nimura> i dont think it is feasible because both are expecting some other oraganizations involvement.
13:14:00 <kaz> dsr: as an IG, we need to coordinate with other SDOs
13:14:09 <kaz> ... so it's something we do
13:14:26 <dsr> we invite talks from outside of the IG
13:14:29 <k_nimura> without understanding every specs we cannot do plugfest
13:14:33 <dsr> we give talks to other groups
13:14:47 <dsr> we invite orgs to participate in plugfgests
13:14:56 <dsr> we collaborate on joint reports
13:15:20 <k_nimura> nobody commited it yet.
13:15:31 <kaz> kaz: Dave, maybe you also can agree we need some kind of basic survey for this purpose
13:15:37 <kaz> dsr: yes, that's the study
13:15:51 <kaz> matthias: we just have 15 more mins
13:16:17 <kaz> ... currently more opposes to be included in the IG Charter
13:16:37 <kaz> dsr: from the viewpoint of W3C BusDev Team, we should keep it
13:16:46 <kaz> ... it's an IG
13:17:20 <kaz> ... we need this stuff
13:17:29 <kaz> ... we need to encourage more people to join the IG
13:17:55 <kajimoto> How do you think that IG charter dividing to IG1 for creating WG, IG2 for continuous input from other organizations ?
13:18:15 <kaz> sebasitan: would propose to remove this proposal from the deliverables section
13:18:27 <kaz> ... and have some description in the scope section
13:18:46 <kaz> dsr: would harm to get new people...
13:19:02 <kaz> ... this is important to recuruit people
13:19:13 <kaz> ... please look at the previous charter
13:19:26 <taki> q+
13:19:29 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/2014/12/wot-ig-charter.html#deliverables previous Charter
13:19:32 <mkovatsc> ack m
13:19:35 <kaz> q?
13:20:05 <kaz> tibor: want to agree with Dave
13:20:19 <kaz> ... important for a startup company as well
13:20:24 <kajimoto> Creating WG, technology landscape has power, IG1 charter includes important 4 deliverables that is use case, architecture, plugfest practice and technology landscape.
13:20:46 <kaz> tibor: sent an email to the list about "decentralized..."
13:21:16 <kajimoto> On the other hand, as IG2, continuous requirement input by many organizations with the latest technology.
13:22:11 <kaz> -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wot-ig/2016May/0080.html Tibor's message
13:23:05 <kaz> tibor: suggesting decentralised, peer-to-peer,
13:23:05 <kaz> blockchain based Internet-of-Things in the charter
13:23:34 <kaz> ... from business viewpoint, there are definitely use cases
13:23:38 <kajimoto> Reading IRC discussion, some of us insist IG1 to create WG, Dave and some guys says IG2 for continuous requirement input to WG,
13:25:16 <kaz> kaz: Matthias, there're several different opinions and we need some more time to wrap up this
13:25:40 <kaz> matthias: blockchain-based IoT would be a possible solution
13:25:50 <kaz> ... but we should not charter for some specific solution
13:26:10 <kaz> s/solution/solution which is not yet analyzed/
13:26:38 <kaz> tibor: I put much effort on WoT platforms
13:26:57 <kaz> ... who has the final vote for what should be done?
13:27:18 <kaz> matthias: as I mentioned, we should not charter for some specific solution which is not analyzed yet
13:28:40 <kaz> tibor: some of the IG participants agree and some don't
13:28:48 <kaz> ... how to make decision in that case?
13:30:16 <kaz> ... my company and myself would volunteer to work for this item
13:30:55 <kaz> dsr: decentralized architecture as the topic, and blockchain as an example
13:31:07 <kaz> ... will come up with some text for review
13:31:21 <kaz> ... also would see the timeline for each document
13:31:52 <kaz> matthias: Kajimoto-san, do you have any idea when we could have a stable version for the architecture document?
13:31:56 <kaz> ... will check with him
13:32:08 <kaz> ... also will see the tech landscape, etc.
13:32:15 <kaz> dsr: thanks very much
13:32:28 <kaz> matthias: there are 4 bullet points open on the issue tracker
13:32:29 <kajimoto> Middle of Jun, we finalize stable document.
13:32:57 <toru> q+
13:33:10 <jhund> q?
13:33:11 <kaz> matthias: let's try to finalize the pull requests
13:33:27 <kaz> ... until @@@ (missed)
13:33:40 <kaz> taki: would agree to take some challenge for the new charter
13:34:00 <kaz> ... saw some keywords like semantic model
13:34:25 <kaz> ... having some new challenges would be good
13:34:39 <kaz> ... good for existing members too
13:34:56 <kaz> matthias: you mean we should have that in the deliverables section?
13:35:30 <kaz> taki: not sure, but just continuing the current work would be not attracting
13:35:34 <kaz> q?
13:35:40 <kaz> ack taki
13:35:41 <kaz> ack toru
13:35:57 <kaz> toru: my colleague raised another issue-162
13:36:05 <kaz> ... would discuss that
13:36:08 <kaz> ... on email is fine
13:36:25 <kaz> ... patent policy, etc.
13:36:47 <kaz> ... should be replaced by the text from the previous Charter
13:37:06 <kaz> ... don't think IG's deliverables require IPP commitment
13:37:10 <kaz> dsr: tx
13:37:14 <kaz> ... will replace the text
13:37:19 <kaz> q?
13:37:19 <mkovatsc> q?
13:38:01 <kaz> s/@@@ (missed)/the end of this week/
13:38:04 <kaz> s/until/by/
13:38:35 <kaz> matthias: difficult to have specific solutions for the charter
13:38:42 <kaz> ... not a good way
13:39:09 <kaz> dsr: we need to discuss the level of solutions
13:39:22 <Yingying_> rrsagent,make minutes
13:39:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/18-wot-minutes.html Yingying_
13:39:35 <Soumya> have to leave for another meeting, bye
13:40:02 <kaz> dsr: please look into the background as well
13:40:17 <kaz> ... we don't have enough time now, though...
13:40:54 <kaz> matthias: we'll close the call
13:41:12 <kaz> ... until the end of this week, we'll try to wrap up the discussion
13:41:19 <kaz> [ adjourned ]
13:41:25 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
13:41:28 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:41:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/18-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:41:37 <jhund_> jhund_ has joined #wot
13:41:47 <kaz> present+ Tuan_Tran
14:55:27 <taki> taki has left #wot
15:28:42 <kaz> kaz has joined #wot
16:04:20 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wot
16:39:33 <Karen_> Karen_ has joined #wot
17:43:29 <dfr> dfr has joined #wot
19:59:32 <Karen> Karen has joined #wot
23:14:11 <thor> thor has joined #wot