IRC log of wot on 2016-05-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/05/18-wot-irc
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12:02:17 [michael]
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12:02:30 [kaz]
Meeting: WoT IG
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Present: Kaz_Ashimura, Dave_Raggett, Achille_Zappa, Masato_Ohura, Matthias_Kovatsch, Ryuichi_Matsukura, Soumya_Kanti_Datta, Yun_Li, Daniel_Peintner, Michael_Koster
12:04:00 [kaz]
present+ Claes_Nilsson
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present+ Darko_Anicic
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present+ Takuki_Kamiya
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present+ Tibor_Pardi
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present+ DarkoAnicic
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Present+ Yingying_Chen
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present+ Toru_Kawaguchi
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present+ Ali_Keraenen
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present+ Daniel_Peintner
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present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch
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present+ Shuting_@@@
12:06:17 [sebastian]
present sebastian_kaebisch
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present+ sebastian_kaebisch
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present+ Nan_Wang
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present+ Victor_Charpenay
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q+
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12:09:39 [kaz]
topic: IG extension?
12:09:43 [kaz]
kaz: until when?
12:09:50 [kaz]
dsr: till the Beijing meeting
12:10:13 [kaz]
kaz: the end of the meeting?
12:10:23 [kaz]
... or maybe we should simply aim the end of July
12:11:16 [k_nimura]
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12:11:33 [kaz]
sebasitan: possible to extend till the new IG Charter is ready?
12:11:51 [kaz]
dsr: our Charter is already expired
12:12:00 [Claes]
present+ Claes_Nilsson
12:13:06 [toru]
present+ Toru_Kawaguchi
12:13:06 [kaz]
kaz: so we need to provide the W3M a concrete date for our extension
12:13:23 [sebastian]
we are back
12:14:13 [jhund]
present+ Johannes_Hund, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Victor_Charpenay, Matthias_Kovatsch, Darko_Anicic
12:14:20 [jhund]
present
12:15:04 [sebastian]
we have no audio
12:15:31 [mkovatsc]
Audio crashed again - we try another solution
12:15:42 [kaz]
kaz: the IG charter we're working on is for the working period for, e.g., 1-2 years, to finalize the deliverable documents
12:16:02 [mkovatsc]
yes
12:16:07 [kaz]
... and after we launch the expected WG, we can recharter the IG with updated scope again
12:16:20 [kaz]
present+ chat_ma
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Sebastian asked if it is possible to extend without expiration date, but to use "when re-charter becomes active"
12:16:42 [kaz]
present+ Jim_@@@
12:16:53 [kaz]
present+ Katsuyoshi_Naka
12:17:03 [Soumya]
present+ Soumya
12:17:04 [Yingying]
s/chat_ma/Chao_Ma/
12:17:05 [kaz]
present+ Kazuaki_Nimura
12:17:44 [michael]
I can hear Kaz and Daniel
12:17:48 [Soumya]
i can hear you both
12:17:51 [Claes]
Claes: I can hear you
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12:18:15 [katsu]
I can hear both of you
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12:19:36 [kaz]
matthias: ok
12:20:13 [kaz]
... are there any topics to discuss quickly?
12:20:44 [kaz]
kaz: Dave is back with the W3M approval for the extension till the end of July
12:20:46 [Yingying]
rrsagent, make minutes
12:20:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/18-wot-minutes.html Yingying
12:21:00 [kaz]
dsr: They've approved our extension till the end of July
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12:21:08 [kaz]
... next step is review by one of the W3Mers
12:21:33 [kaz]
kaz: who is the reviewer?
12:21:41 [kaz]
dsr: need to find a candidate
12:21:53 [kaz]
... may be Philipp
12:22:04 [kaz]
kaz: and might be Judy as well from the accessibility viewpoint
12:22:29 [kaz]
topic: IG Charter
12:22:44 [kaz]
-> http://w3c.github.io/wot/charters/wot-ig-2016.html draft IG Charter
12:22:56 [kaz]
dsr: compilation of various pull requests
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12:23:23 [kaz]
... main changes are the sentence on the introduction section
12:24:49 [kaz]
-> https://www.w3.org/2016/05/wot-ig-2016-alpha3.html alpha 3 version
12:25:06 [kaz]
kaz: difference between this alpha3 version and the github version?
12:25:11 [kaz]
dsr: need to check the diff
12:25:40 [kaz]
... added "Industry alliances and standards development organizations are looking to W3C to take the leadership in two critical areas: semantic interoperability and end to end security across different platforms." to the introduction
12:26:05 [kaz]
... scope section describes the relationship and the IG and the expected WG
12:26:17 [kaz]
[[
12:26:17 [kaz]
The Interest Group will identify requirements for standardization by exploring use cases and requirements for a broad range of application domains, and through examining the requirements for integrating a broad range of IoT platforms into the Web of Things.
12:26:18 [kaz]
]]
12:27:23 [kaz]
dsr: bullet points describe the aim of the plugfest:
12:27:24 [kaz]
[[
12:27:25 [kaz]
tests for conformity for recommendation track technology
12:27:25 [kaz]
test-drive upcoming or proposed tech for the recommendation track
12:27:25 [kaz]
outreach to other communities and new members (open day, demo track)
12:27:25 [kaz]
]]
12:28:14 [kaz]
... should have discussion now
12:28:19 [kaz]
... questions?
12:28:28 [akeranen]
q+
12:28:32 [kaz]
matthias: would agree with the current scope section
12:28:34 [kaz]
q-
12:28:56 [kaz]
... bullet points and summary too
12:29:09 [kaz]
... outreach through requirements for other SDOs
12:29:21 [kaz]
ack a
12:29:35 [kaz]
ari: sent an email right before this call
12:29:44 [kaz]
... regarding semantic work
12:30:03 [mkovatsc]
q+
12:30:07 [mkovatsc]
q?
12:30:21 [kaz]
... we need to reuse existing mechanism generated by others
12:30:37 [kaz]
dsr: people would like to see what this group do
12:30:43 [mkovatsc]
q?
12:30:44 [kaz]
... and why they need to join this group
12:30:49 [kaz]
ack m
12:31:00 [kaz]
matthias: I'm fine
12:31:10 [kaz]
... and agree it's kind of too much
12:31:30 [kaz]
... it's not that W3C would rule overall things
12:31:33 [kaz]
dsr: ok
12:31:42 [kaz]
ari: that would be much better
12:31:52 [dsr]
I will change the wording to “ looking to collaborate with W3C in two”
12:32:13 [kaz]
... and another point of mine is including semantic web groups
12:32:31 [kaz]
... would have discussion offline
12:32:33 [kaz]
dsr: ok
12:32:42 [mkovatsc]
q?
12:32:46 [toru]
q+
12:32:54 [kaz]
dsr: what about the "Scope Summary"?
12:33:01 [kaz]
matthias: this is editorial
12:33:05 [mkovatsc]
q?
12:33:06 [kaz]
ack t
12:33:17 [kaz]
toru: my colleague raised an issue
12:33:33 [kaz]
... would like to know...
12:33:39 [kaz]
... there are two things about testing
12:33:46 [kaz]
... plugfest and interoperability
12:33:51 [kaz]
... what is the difference?
12:34:19 [kaz]
-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/163 issue-163
12:35:02 [kaz]
dsr: the role of plugfest includes interoperability test
12:35:08 [dape]
q+
12:35:22 [kaz]
toru: deference between the roles by the WG and the IG?
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12:35:51 [kaz]
matthias: different aspect of the plugfest
12:36:00 [kaz]
... conformity of implementation
12:36:05 [dape]
q-
12:36:05 [kaz]
q+
12:36:12 [kaz]
... demo-like approach
12:36:37 [kaz]
toru: interoperability test by WG is for fixing the rec draft?
12:37:05 [kaz]
q?
12:37:25 [kaz]
dsr: in the W3C process, we need implementation reports for exiting CR
12:37:29 [Yingying_]
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12:37:40 [kaz]
... check implementation
12:38:01 [kaz]
q?
12:38:42 [kaz]
kaz: in that case, it would be better to say "Testing for CR exit", etc., for the WG side in this figure
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12:38:55 [dsr]
we will change tests for conformity for recommendation track technology to testing for CR exit or words to that effect
12:38:59 [jhund]
q+
12:39:04 [kaz]
kaz: would be less misleading
12:39:08 [kaz]
ack k
12:39:09 [mkovatsc]
ack kaz
12:39:14 [kaz]
ack j
12:39:15 [mkovatsc]
ack jhund
12:39:20 [kaz]
jhund: three points
12:39:42 [kaz]
... would make a good future candidate using plugfest
12:40:05 [kaz]
... testing for comformity is misleading
12:40:26 [kaz]
... from the WG perspective, plugfest would help interoperability in public manners
12:40:33 [kaz]
... "conformity" is misleading
12:41:00 [kaz]
dsr: test suite by the WG will be used for CR-PR transition
12:41:37 [kaz]
... maybe could replace the bullet by two ones
12:41:43 [kaz]
... e.g., @@@
12:42:18 [kaz]
jhund: maybe you could put it into one bullet
12:42:25 [dsr]
one on CR and the other on interoperabiity across different implementations
12:42:33 [kaz]
... the difference is maturity
12:43:01 [kaz]
... the purposes are different
12:43:44 [kaz]
dsr: test suites are very comprehensive and different from what we're doing
12:44:03 [kaz]
... will update the bullet points and people can review it
12:44:20 [kaz]
matthias: the first bullet point including "conformity" is misleading
12:44:40 [kaz]
... also the second point "test-drive", test will be driven by the WG
12:45:14 [kaz]
... new staff coming up to the IG
12:45:17 [dape]
q+
12:45:31 [kaz]
s/new/the first point is new/
12:45:43 [kaz]
... the second point is similar to what we've been doing
12:45:44 [kaz]
q+
12:45:47 [kaz]
ack d
12:46:06 [kaz]
dape: plugfest is for the second point
12:46:28 [kaz]
... everyone should understand the difference between the first point and the second
12:46:38 [kaz]
... also the capitalization: PlugFest
12:46:46 [kaz]
q?
12:46:49 [DarkoAnicic]
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12:46:49 [kaz]
ack k
12:47:36 [kaz]
kaz: we should be clear between the difference
12:47:48 [kaz]
dsr: will update the first point so that people can review it
12:48:02 [kaz]
... let's move ahead
12:48:13 [kaz]
... scope "Deliverables"
12:48:18 [kaz]
s/scope //
12:48:21 [mkovatsc]
q+
12:48:34 [kaz]
... discussion with Matthias and Johannes
12:49:32 [dape]
q+
12:49:33 [kaz]
... Use Cases and Requirements
12:49:36 [kaz]
... Architecture
12:49:43 [kaz]
ack m
12:50:04 [kaz]
matthias: the first two deliverables are included in the previous charter
12:50:07 [kaz]
... quite easy to fix the pub date
12:50:15 [kaz]
... also positive for the IG to produce them
12:50:48 [kaz]
... and can concentrate new work architecture and current practice
12:51:00 [kaz]
... need editors' contributions
12:51:31 [kaz]
... who want to have the other two: end-to-end security acrros IoT platforms, semantic models and APIs
12:51:43 [kaz]
... additional deliverables may be added
12:52:04 [kaz]
dsr: talking to other SDOs is one of our key values
12:52:26 [kaz]
matthias: semantic models and apis
12:52:32 [Soumya]
q+
12:52:43 [kaz]
... this is a useful document
12:52:56 [kaz]
... why do we need another one here?
12:52:58 [Soumya]
I will support the new two deliverables
12:53:02 [dape]
q-
12:53:18 [kaz]
dsr: important role of semantics
12:53:31 [kaz]
soumya: would support both the two new deliverables
12:53:50 [kaz]
... there is a notion of semantic web
12:54:16 [kaz]
... what we're doing is linking to semantics, so need to define some specific semantic model
12:54:27 [kaz]
jhund: we had discussion yesterday
12:54:36 [kaz]
... how to see thin description, etc.
12:54:51 [kaz]
... the question is we have separate deliveralbles
12:55:05 [kaz]
... brought to a recommendation
12:55:11 [kaz]
s/brought/would be brought/
12:55:43 [kaz]
dsr: work on ontology by other groups
12:56:02 [kaz]
... what is the main constraint?
12:56:10 [kaz]
... we haven't done
12:56:19 [kaz]
... and we should take the lead for that
12:56:36 [kaz]
matthias: my question is who would take the lead for these two work?
12:56:39 [kaz]
soumya: me
12:56:41 [kaz]
dsr: and me
12:57:05 [kaz]
michael: interested in domain model using RDF, etc.
12:57:13 [kaz]
... W3C should focus on document formats
12:57:39 [kaz]
... how the TD would be used for annotation
12:57:51 [kaz]
dsr: standardizing cross-domain metadata
12:58:06 [kaz]
... how to be used collaboratively with other SDOs
12:58:30 [kaz]
q+
12:58:37 [kaz]
ack s
12:58:41 [mkovatsc]
q?
12:58:48 [mkovatsc]
q+
12:58:54 [mkovatsc]
ack k
12:59:13 [Yingying_]
kaz: what is the difference between semantic model and TD?
12:59:13 [kaz]
kaz: wondering the difference between this semantic model and TD
12:59:27 [Soumya]
ack Soumya
12:59:34 [kaz]
dsr: sensor should define data based on ontology
12:59:44 [Yingying_]
s/kaz: what is the difference between semantic model and TD?//
12:59:47 [kaz]
... select services, apply constraints
12:59:57 [kaz]
... which ontology uses which semantics
13:00:33 [kaz]
sebastian: basic idea of the capability
13:01:16 [kaz]
dsr: we need a common understanding
13:01:22 [mkovatsc]
q?
13:01:33 [kaz]
i/need/if TD is the HTML of the Web of Things, then we would not want to standardize the content of web pages
13:01:56 [kaz]
matthias: would repeat who representing which company would work for it?
13:02:25 [kaz]
michael: we need to see Thing Description as the deliverable
13:02:31 [kaz]
... that's the role of this group
13:02:38 [kaz]
... to work properly
13:02:42 [kaz]
... common language layer
13:03:05 [kaz]
... not sure how much survey is needed, though
13:03:32 [kaz]
... annotating thins
13:03:35 [kaz]
s/thins/things
13:03:46 [kaz]
dsr: role of the model
13:04:00 [kaz]
... collaboration with the other SDOs
13:04:26 [dsr]
It is not just about thing descriptions
13:04:42 [kaz]
matthias: why do we need this work item which don't have enough people support
13:05:06 [kaz]
... we're interested in working on Thing Description
13:05:19 [kajimoto]
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13:05:51 [kaz]
dsr: report is a deliverable and part of the culture of plugfest
13:05:55 [kajimoto]
My audio has trouble now... (kajimoto)
13:06:08 [kaz]
... there are various approaches on semantic information for IoT
13:06:39 [kaz]
... very important to show scalability
13:06:56 [kaz]
... if we don't do this, WoT won't be successful
13:07:28 [kaz]
... likewise security we would get new members for this as well
13:08:46 [kaz]
jhund: @@@couldn't hear well
13:09:15 [kaz]
matthias: how about include this into the current practices?
13:09:36 [kaz]
soumya: let me rephrase what Dave is saying
13:10:05 [kaz]
... what we need here is generic framework/concept applicable to various frameworks
13:10:39 [kaz]
sebastian: we have technology landscape, current practice documents
13:10:50 [kaz]
... I think this would make people confused
13:11:02 [kaz]
dsr: don't think so
13:11:35 [kaz]
jhund: why we couldn't do this within the tech landscape work?
13:11:56 [kaz]
dsr: generic framework across the platforms
13:12:22 [kaz]
... how ontologies could be used
13:13:08 [kaz]
nimura: @@@ couldn't hear and asked him to type-in
13:13:34 [k_nimura]
i dont think it is feasible because both are expecting some other oraganizations involvement.
13:14:00 [kaz]
dsr: as an IG, we need to coordinate with other SDOs
13:14:09 [kaz]
... so it's something we do
13:14:26 [dsr]
we invite talks from outside of the IG
13:14:29 [k_nimura]
without understanding every specs we cannot do plugfest
13:14:33 [dsr]
we give talks to other groups
13:14:47 [dsr]
we invite orgs to participate in plugfgests
13:14:56 [dsr]
we collaborate on joint reports
13:15:20 [k_nimura]
nobody commited it yet.
13:15:31 [kaz]
kaz: Dave, maybe you also can agree we need some kind of basic survey for this purpose
13:15:37 [kaz]
dsr: yes, that's the study
13:15:51 [kaz]
matthias: we just have 15 more mins
13:16:17 [kaz]
... currently more opposes to be included in the IG Charter
13:16:37 [kaz]
dsr: from the viewpoint of W3C BusDev Team, we should keep it
13:16:46 [kaz]
... it's an IG
13:17:20 [kaz]
... we need this stuff
13:17:29 [kaz]
... we need to encourage more people to join the IG
13:17:55 [kajimoto]
How do you think that IG charter dividing to IG1 for creating WG, IG2 for continuous input from other organizations ?
13:18:15 [kaz]
sebasitan: would propose to remove this proposal from the deliverables section
13:18:27 [kaz]
... and have some description in the scope section
13:18:46 [kaz]
dsr: would harm to get new people...
13:19:02 [kaz]
... this is important to recuruit people
13:19:13 [kaz]
... please look at the previous charter
13:19:26 [taki]
q+
13:19:29 [kaz]
-> https://www.w3.org/2014/12/wot-ig-charter.html#deliverables previous Charter
13:19:32 [mkovatsc]
ack m
13:19:35 [kaz]
q?
13:20:05 [kaz]
tibor: want to agree with Dave
13:20:19 [kaz]
... important for a startup company as well
13:20:24 [kajimoto]
Creating WG, technology landscape has power, IG1 charter includes important 4 deliverables that is use case, architecture, plugfest practice and technology landscape.
13:20:46 [kaz]
tibor: sent an email to the list about "decentralized..."
13:21:16 [kajimoto]
On the other hand, as IG2, continuous requirement input by many organizations with the latest technology.
13:22:11 [kaz]
-> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wot-ig/2016May/0080.html Tibor's message
13:23:05 [kaz]
tibor: suggesting decentralised, peer-to-peer,
13:23:05 [kaz]
blockchain based Internet-of-Things in the charter
13:23:34 [kaz]
... from business viewpoint, there are definitely use cases
13:23:38 [kajimoto]
Reading IRC discussion, some of us insist IG1 to create WG, Dave and some guys says IG2 for continuous requirement input to WG,
13:25:16 [kaz]
kaz: Matthias, there're several different opinions and we need some more time to wrap up this
13:25:40 [kaz]
matthias: blockchain-based IoT would be a possible solution
13:25:50 [kaz]
... but we should not charter for some specific solution
13:26:10 [kaz]
s/solution/solution which is not yet analyzed/
13:26:38 [kaz]
tibor: I put much effort on WoT platforms
13:26:57 [kaz]
... who has the final vote for what should be done?
13:27:18 [kaz]
matthias: as I mentioned, we should not charter for some specific solution which is not analyzed yet
13:28:40 [kaz]
tibor: some of the IG participants agree and some don't
13:28:48 [kaz]
... how to make decision in that case?
13:30:16 [kaz]
... my company and myself would volunteer to work for this item
13:30:55 [kaz]
dsr: decentralized architecture as the topic, and blockchain as an example
13:31:07 [kaz]
... will come up with some text for review
13:31:21 [kaz]
... also would see the timeline for each document
13:31:52 [kaz]
matthias: Kajimoto-san, do you have any idea when we could have a stable version for the architecture document?
13:31:56 [kaz]
... will check with him
13:32:08 [kaz]
... also will see the tech landscape, etc.
13:32:15 [kaz]
dsr: thanks very much
13:32:28 [kaz]
matthias: there are 4 bullet points open on the issue tracker
13:32:29 [kajimoto]
Middle of Jun, we finalize stable document.
13:32:57 [toru]
q+
13:33:10 [jhund]
q?
13:33:11 [kaz]
matthias: let's try to finalize the pull requests
13:33:27 [kaz]
... until @@@ (missed)
13:33:40 [kaz]
taki: would agree to take some challenge for the new charter
13:34:00 [kaz]
... saw some keywords like semantic model
13:34:25 [kaz]
... having some new challenges would be good
13:34:39 [kaz]
... good for existing members too
13:34:56 [kaz]
matthias: you mean we should have that in the deliverables section?
13:35:30 [kaz]
taki: not sure, but just continuing the current work would be not attracting
13:35:34 [kaz]
q?
13:35:40 [kaz]
ack taki
13:35:41 [kaz]
ack toru
13:35:57 [kaz]
toru: my colleague raised another issue-162
13:36:05 [kaz]
... would discuss that
13:36:08 [kaz]
... on email is fine
13:36:25 [kaz]
... patent policy, etc.
13:36:47 [kaz]
... should be replaced by the text from the previous Charter
13:37:06 [kaz]
... don't think IG's deliverables require IPP commitment
13:37:10 [kaz]
dsr: tx
13:37:14 [kaz]
... will replace the text
13:37:19 [kaz]
q?
13:37:19 [mkovatsc]
q?
13:38:01 [kaz]
s/@@@ (missed)/the end of this week/
13:38:04 [kaz]
s/until/by/
13:38:35 [kaz]
matthias: difficult to have specific solutions for the charter
13:38:42 [kaz]
... not a good way
13:39:09 [kaz]
dsr: we need to discuss the level of solutions
13:39:22 [Yingying_]
rrsagent,make minutes
13:39:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/18-wot-minutes.html Yingying_
13:39:35 [Soumya]
have to leave for another meeting, bye
13:40:02 [kaz]
dsr: please look into the background as well
13:40:17 [kaz]
... we don't have enough time now, though...
13:40:54 [kaz]
matthias: we'll close the call
13:41:12 [kaz]
... until the end of this week, we'll try to wrap up the discussion
13:41:19 [kaz]
[ adjourned ]
13:41:25 [kaz]
rrsagent, make log public
13:41:28 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:41:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/18-wot-minutes.html kaz
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present+ Tuan_Tran
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