20:27:42 RRSAgent has joined #svg 20:27:42 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/05/12-svg-irc 20:27:44 RRSAgent, make logs public 20:27:46 Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG 20:27:46 ok, trackbot 20:27:47 Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference 20:27:47 Date: 12 May 2016 20:27:52 Chair: nikos 20:28:03 Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2016May/0001.html 20:28:12 present+ nikos 20:30:12 present+ AmeliaBR 20:34:41 Calling in now. 20:35:20 scribe: nikos 20:35:24 scribenick: nikos 20:35:44 present+ Tav 20:35:56 Topic: SVG authoring guide 20:36:07 present+ shepazu 20:37:28 http://w3c.github.io/svgwg/specs/svg-authoring/#intro 20:37:39 jcraig has joined #svg 20:37:39 old SVG Accessibility Authoring Guide: https://w3c.github.io/writing-accessible-svg/accessible-svg.html 20:38:38 shepazu: This other document gives some context. The SVG A11y TF wanted to do an SVG accessibility authoring guide. 20:39:18 Wanted to make something that would have wider appeal 20:39:52 ... so this is about all of SVG. Tips and tricks for authoring good documents, as well as how to make them properly accessible. 20:40:21 ... basically the approach is to talk about how authors and tools can optimise SVG to be portable, work well, etc 20:40:34 ... accessibility is just a part of that. 20:40:59 ... I'd like to expand this across the board. Want people in and out of the group to be able to contribute so we can get the best tips and tricks in one place 20:41:15 ... would be good if you could read it and provide feedback. 20:41:26 ... Important to know I used the gh-pages branch. 20:41:38 ... I would suggest we move everything to gh-pages and make that the default 20:42:08 ... gh-pages is a special kind of branch. If you put something on gh-pages it's visible on w3c.github.io 20:42:50 AmeliaBR: it's complicated by the compiled source. The benefit of gh-pages is that you can view a source file as HTML in the browser. That only works if the file in the repo is what you want to see. 20:43:01 ... with svg we have build scripts that puts things on svgwg.org 20:43:57 AmeliaBR: all the specs that SVG host require a build script to generate the output 20:44:48 shepazu: It's slightly misleading if people go to the uncompiled pages, but it's not harmful 20:45:02 ... you're correct that it would only show the uncompiled version of the spec 20:45:22 ... but for specs like this one it does help, and for other stand alone specs, then it will help with that 20:45:29 ... so I would suggest we move to the gh-pages branch 20:45:42 AmeliaBR: I'm happy to use gh-pages but I would like to make sure we still have master vs built version 20:45:53 ... which is what ARIA is moving to, and what CSS does 20:46:15 ... so have a master version and a gh-pages version that is built 20:47:41 shepazu: But I'd like to move to gh-pages and I think we should 20:48:08 nikos: I'd like to do some investigation before I decide if that's a good idea or not 20:50:00 stakagi has joined #svg 20:50:40 AmeliaBR_ has joined #svg 20:51:59 present+ stakagi 20:53:59 nikos: thought it was funny that the text on path example is an image so I can't select the text - which the guide says is one of the benefits of text path 20:54:05 shepazu: good point, I'll make it an iframe 20:54:14 AmeliaBR_: make it an object instead. It scales like image 20:54:24 ... that's another good tip for the guide 20:54:45 ... it'll match the internal size of the svg 20:55:14 ... iframe sizing is completely determined by the external properties 20:55:42 ... so iframe sizing is determined by the styles in the HTML page, it does not use the intrinsic sizing of the SVG page 20:56:05 jcraig has joined #svg 20:56:33 nikos: link to a11y email list is wrong 20:56:42 Topic: Amsterdam F2F 20:57:24 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/19480/amsterdam2016/ 20:57:36 nikos: We found a host at CWI. They can do Monday - Wednesday 20:57:42 ... I propose still meeting up on Sunday if people are in town 20:57:46 ... we can do something more informal 20:58:04 Tav: I'll plan to arrive Sunday morning 20:58:09 AmeliaBR_: I expect to be around those days 20:59:05 ... there's also a Chrome hosted conference Monday and Tuesday in Amsterdam on progressive web apps 20:59:17 ... don't know if Google folks will be around and would like to carry over an extra day 20:59:41 https://events.withgoogle.com/progressive-web-app-dev-summit/ 21:00:33 nikos: So for this meeting I'm hoping we can get most of the issues that need editorial fixes done beforehand so we can focus on review 21:00:45 Topic: Define overflow:visible behavior for pattern tiles 21:00:50 https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/issues/129 21:01:55 AmeliaBR_: SVG 1.1 had text that overflow is default and if overflow is visible, the rendering is undefined 21:02:11 ... I would like to make it defined in SVG 2 21:02:23 ... there are lots of times when authoring that you have a non rectangular repeating pattern 21:02:37 ... the drawing objects don't fit in the repeating rectangle 21:02:45 ... so it seems logical that overflow:visible would be useful heree 21:03:01 ... doesn't work in any browser UAs that I've tested 21:03:13 ... discussion so far has been that it would be nice, but what are the practical problems 21:03:24 ... two issues - first how do tiles get stacked in the painting order 21:03:27 ... that's not controversial 21:03:35 ... second issue is the limit on how far overflow can go 21:03:48 ... and what effect that will have on the cost of computing the final bitmap for the repeating tile 21:04:11 Tav: in InkScape we don't support overflow, but I'd like to change that because it comes up often 21:04:18 ... we can simulate it by using our tiling 21:04:31 ... it makes copies using the use element 21:04:37 ... it's still very fast 21:04:47 ... I don't see a huge perf penalty by not limiting the size of the tiling 21:04:58 AmeliaBR_: that's certainly how I do it as an author 21:05:34 Tav: I would like to simply state that overflow should be painted 21:05:48 AmeliaBR_: as far as perf impacts, we wouldn't be changing default behaviour 21:06:43 nikos: Regarding the perf problem, Cameron's example was far more complex than examples given so far 21:06:57 Tav: if an author is silly enough to do that then it's expected 21:07:07 AmeliaBR_: if an author wants to push the limit then that's ok 21:07:15 ... there's lots of crazy css that can do that 21:07:20 AmeliaBR_: it's just a trade off 21:07:24 q+ 21:08:45 nikos: my concern is for users, there's already ways to make slow svg, but it can be unfriendly to users if an author is developing on a fast machine and doesn't realise there are perf problems with their page 21:09:06 shepazu: I'm sympathetic to amelia's position. At the same time I don't think this is a priority for SVG 2 21:09:19 ... don't know how likely it is that if we specified something that it would get implemented in a timely way 21:09:24 ... would result in an at risk feature 21:09:33 Tav: this is afive minute spec change 21:09:55 shepazu: I'm worried about time to change implementations, come to agreement, etc 21:10:03 Tav: I'd write tests 21:10:11 shepazu: you'd need to change browsers too 21:11:16 nikos: I agree. Think it will take some time to get agreement from browsers about which direction to go with 21:11:35 AmeliaBR_: we're not going to define as pattern overflow will never work 21:11:46 ... better to put a note that it may be defined in future versions 21:11:54 Tav: why don't we put it in and put it at risk and get feedback? 21:12:12 shepazu: I have a feeling the five minute change may take several hours that could be better used on other things 21:13:07 nikos: I would suggest we leave it undefined for now. If you really want to make the spec change do it after all other actions are finished. 21:23:46 nikos: Think it's best to leave it undefined. Don't want to close the door on the feature, but it's not going to make it into SVG 2 21:24:10 Topic: Github labels 21:26:07 nikos: The labels I picked were an experiment. Label was done by state - where an issue is up to at the moment. E.g. 'Resolved', 'Editing', etc 21:26:25 ... think it would be better to change to label by the the issue needs - 'Needs discussion', 'Needs editing', etc 21:26:36 q+ 21:27:00 AmeliaBR_: I'm ok with that. Would like to see colour schemes used more effectively too 21:27:52 nikos: There's a milestone I made for SVG 2 CR, I might update the issues under there at some point 21:28:12 Topic: Doug's questions about SVG 2 21:28:22 shepazu: What's the status of xlink:href? 21:28:27 AmeliaBR_: just href is ok 21:28:32 shepazu: text wrapping? 21:28:36 Tav: that's in there 21:28:44 shepazu: markers inheriting colours? 21:28:51 AmeliaBR_: probably still issues, but it's there 21:29:00 Tav: what's missing? 21:29:06 AmeliaBR_: clearly defining how those keywords work. 21:29:34 nikos: It might be that we don't have a definition for what the context is that those attributes talk about 21:29:51 shepazu: Those are three things that I think would make SVG more usable 21:30:34 ... Think we should also point out the things that will make it easier for people to author SVG 21:30:40 ... we should broadcast those when SVG is put out 21:30:58 ... What other features? 21:31:06 nikos: marker auto-start-reverse is small but nice for authors 21:31:26 AmeliaBR_: I got lots of outrage when I tweeted about z-index being at-risk. People want that 21:31:54 ... we need to update the what's changed appendix, but it would be useful to write up a "what's new" guide at the same time 21:32:45 Tav: text on a shape is nice 21:33:43 nikos: I'll make a wiki page on github, people can add stuff as they think of them 21:35:11 shepazu: another feature is that we've moved many SVG features into CSS so they're more broadly supported 21:35:42 AmeliaBR_: geometry in CSS is something authors really want 21:35:49 Tav: paint-order is big with InkScape users 21:37:35 shepazu: we should make a demo page with all these features 21:37:38 AmeliaBR_: wiki page sounds good 21:38:04 nikos: There's a lot we can expand it to - implementation status, etc 21:38:09 ... we'll start small and build it up 21:50:59 RRSAgent, make minutes 21:50:59 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/12-svg-minutes.html nikos 23:10:57 jcraig has joined #svg