14:46:24 RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y 14:46:24 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/05/12-mobile-a11y-irc 14:46:26 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:46:26 Zakim has joined #mobile-a11y 14:46:28 Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF 14:46:28 ok, trackbot 14:46:29 Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 14:46:29 Date: 12 May 2016 14:46:56 chair: Kathleen_Wahlbin 14:48:07 Agenda+ Update on W3C call 14:48:09 Agenda+ Continue discussion on orientation https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_revision_of_3.4.1 14:48:10 Agenda+ Next Steps – next meeting May 19 15:01:55 AGarrison has joined #mobile-a11y 15:02:23 Kathy has joined #mobile-a11y 15:03:00 present+ Kathy 15:03:01 present+ jeanne 15:03:09 chair Kathy 15:03:12 present+ Alistair 15:03:23 chair: Kathy 15:03:25 present+ 15:03:43 marcjohlic has joined #mobile-a11y 15:05:18 Regrets+ Patrick 15:06:37 chriscm has joined #mobile-a11y 15:06:42 Kathy: update where we are – We are doing a WCAG 2.1. Nine-month countdown. A lot of work, but fairly good position. We have outline of success criteria. But we have a lot of techniques to write 15:06:53 Hey Everybody. Will join the WebEx shortly, having a couch delivered today and they just showed up. 15:07:19 jon_avila has joined #mobile-a11y 15:07:28 Kathy: last week guideline 2.4. Continue with that. Touch pointer feedback, get that finalized month of June. Work on techniques and failures for that. Work in parallel on the other guidelines 15:07:41 present+jon_avila 15:08:34 Kathy: it's great to see that we've got a direction – any of the options they had proposed had pros and cons, there needed to be some sort of direction now we know and we can move forward. We have nine months until this gets published. Published before CSUN 15:08:48 Alistair: how does that work with the refresh version of 508 15:09:08 Kathy: both ADA in US and Section 508 have gone into a delay 15:09:39 Alistair: same with European legislation – seems to be bouncing backwards regularly 15:09:48 Kathy: any questions on where we are 15:09:56 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_revision_of_3.4.1 15:11:16 Zakim, take up item 1 15:11:16 agendum 1. "Update on W3C call" taken up [from Kim] 15:11:36 laura has joined #mobile-a11y 15:11:54 Zakim, take up item 2 15:11:54 agendum 2. "Continue discussion on orientation https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_revision_of_3.4.1" taken up [from Kim] 15:12:03 Kathy: started a conversation last week on screen orientation. 15:13:34 q+ to come up with some specific use cases for this 15:14:19 Marc: still thinking of portrait versus landscape – should we make this a success criterion or is it good enough to letterbox in portrait mode, smaller 15:14:56 Kathy: were not saying that you can't lock it in – it might not be the ideal view 15:15:18 Jon: panel app – I don't think that's always enforceable – having scrollbar takes away from piano activity 15:15:33 chriscm has joined #mobile-a11y 15:15:54 Alistair: you do have the essential exemption. If it's essential that it's in landscape mode 15:16:28 Jeanne modifying the wiki page as we go 15:17:12 Marc: I like the essential clause – just provide a mechanism to let the user rotated but have the exception for one that developer feels it's essential to keep in landscape mode 15:21:06 Jeanne: would be good to get firm use cases of what we are trying to solve. Not talking about content delivered upside down. We need to come up with clear use cases – that will allow us to settle out the conversation and narrow things down more quickly 15:21:35 Kathy: the only scenario right now is mobile devices are oriented in a fixed orientation. You have it on your wheelchair or an educational setting where devices locked in to a holder 15:22:11 Jeanne: that's clear, but use cases like piano app 15:22:37 Jeanne: putting use cases on the wiki page 15:23:13 I'm on and unmuted now! :) 15:24:50 Jeanne: we have exclusions, but do we have examples where people are locking down the content and it doesn't have to be? 15:25:22 Kathy: application where didn't want people to change application and be in portrait even though parts of it could be in landscape mode they made a decision right from the beginning that they only wanted to be in portrait mode – banking website 15:25:33 Alistair: it's to try and simplify design 15:26:25 Jon: even iOS the help screen on the iPhone can only be in portrait mode. It doesn't have to be but they made that is a design decision because they want. the iPad changes, more room on the screen 15:26:36 Kathy: there are examples out there, I think were going to end up seeing more of it 15:27:12 Alistair: it's a usability issue. You're not going to last long with the bank that doesn't do things in a way you can deal with so you just end up changing banks 15:27:33 Alistair: you going to sort of automatically rule out some of those issues by the sheer fact it becomes unbearable to use it 15:28:09 Kathy: not dealing with usable, just available. It's not usable if they haven't designed it correctly. We're not saying that it has to be usable. Fine line in usability versus accessibility 15:28:25 Kathy: this is simply you can't lock a person into a specific orientation 15:28:50 Alistair: set in that context makes it very easy to understand 15:30:15 Kathy: don't lock person in a specific orientation – should we modify language to that 15:31:43 Kathy: stumbling on use of content – content does not override, website? Are we following a convention here? Does that bother anyone else? 15:32:04 Alistair: if you lock the screen in an orientation can the content override that? 15:32:16 Propose: Content doesn't force a user into a specific device orientation. 15:32:50 Aliistair: on the old iPad had a lock button. Can content override that? You're talking about the other one which is content locks 15:33:06 Kathy: the application doesn't lock a person into a specific orientation 15:33:23 Content or application doesn't override a user's preference for a specific orientation 15:34:17 Alistair: is describing from the wrong way – what you want is for the application not to lock the orientation for the user 15:34:19 Content or application doesn't lock the device orientation for the user 15:35:20 Kathy: WCAG guidelines are all about content 15:35:56 Propose: Content doesn't lock the device orientation for the user, unless the the orientation is essential to the operation. 15:36:24 AG: Orientation of the content is not locked to landscape or portrait 15:37:50 WCAG was written before applications 15:37:58 Kathy: how it's written now can apply to everything 15:38:09 information and sensory experience to be communicated to the user by means of a user agent, including code or markup that defines the content's structure, presentation, and interactions 15:38:42 Jon: WCAG definition of content – that is kind of what were getting at 15:39:00 Alistair: at the end of the day it is the content you're looking for 15:43:31 Kathy: maybe put more in understanding to convey broad meaning of content 15:45:48 Looking at understanding 15:47:30 Alistair: two ideas have been fighting it out in the text – two paragraphs of proposed text for understanding reflect this. 15:48:43 Orientation of the content is not locked to landscape or portrait, except where orientation is essential. 15:49:50 https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#essentialdef 15:49:58 if removed, would fundamentally change the information or functionality of the content, and information and functionality cannot be achieved in another way that would conform 15:50:22 +1 15:50:33 +1 15:50:57 Kathy: we should come up with a few techniques or failures that we like to list with this success criteria – anybody want to take a stab with writing a success or failure? 15:52:17 Alistair: trouble is – do nothing and it will work, and the only way it won't work as if you actively lock it 15:52:26 Kathy: so failure is device orientation is locked 15:52:50 Alistair: for nonessential use or something along those lines because you've got that essential clause 15:53:42 Chris: I'm working on a blog post regarding keyword accessibility – wrote it on my company's Internet so I may not be able to get it to you till it's released but will keep you posted 15:53:48 AG: Failure of Success Criteria x due to locking the orientation of content in landscape or portrait, where the orientation of content is not essential 15:54:06 Jeanne: I'm concerned about how we would write a positive technique as opposed to only having negative techniques 15:54:35 Alistair: but the positive technique is do nothing 15:54:50 Jeanne: are there any success criteria that only have a failure technique? 15:56:08 Kathy: in Patrick's comments link to CSS device adapts information so you can actually set the orientation on the viewport to auto portrait and landscape. So positive techniques sets the value to 0. The technique could be using the orientation to set the orientation to the devices normal mode – something to that effect 15:57:07 Kathy: any other thoughts? 15:57:48 Kathy: any other suggestions on this – otherwise send out a mailing list to get everybody else's feedback 15:58:06 Kathy: we will send this out on the mailing list and then gather feedback to finalize this and move on 15:58:49 Marc: quick comment – tried to jump in and write techniques in touch and pointer, but so much back and forth about the size 16:00:21 Kathy: at least for touch and pointer techniques will get the feedback first and then write techniques. in general before we write techniques we should wait for feedback from the WCAG working group. Hopefully will be in a cyclical cycle. Some of these we may have to coordinate with the other taskforces which will also be part of this. We are working on that – Andrew and Josh are working on... 16:00:23 ...a way to help coordinate everybody. That's going to be critical. Kim and I will work on trying to get that a little more organized. We're just waiting to see how we are going to start that coordination. 16:00:53 Kathy: we are on a nine-month deadline but we don't want to work on these and then have to change them.we will probably just redo the techniques assignment sheet – once we get these finalized 16:02:27 rrsagent, make minutes 16:02:27 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/12-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim 16:02:45 zakim, list participants 16:02:45 As of this point the attendees have been Kathy, jeanne, Alistair, Kim, jon_avila 16:03:18 Present+ Chris, Marc 16:03:39 rrsagent, make minutes 16:03:39 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/12-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim 16:07:00 rrsagent, bye 16:07:00 I see no action items