IRC log of social on 2016-05-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:01:37 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #social
17:01:37 [RRSAgent]
logging to
17:01:39 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:01:39 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #social
17:01:41 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be SOCL
17:01:41 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot
17:01:42 [trackbot]
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
17:01:42 [trackbot]
Date: 10 May 2016
17:02:08 [eprodrom]
17:02:11 [bengo]
17:02:11 [aaronpk]
17:02:13 [ben_thatmustbeme]
17:02:19 [annbass]
17:02:45 [ben_thatmustbeme]
I can scribe
17:03:24 [Arnaud]
17:03:30 [ben_thatmustbeme]
scribenick: ben_thatmustbeme
17:03:36 [eprodrom]
17:03:38 [Loqi]
ben_thatmustbeme has 142 karma
17:03:40 [ben_thatmustbeme]
scribe: Ben Roberts
17:03:52 [ben_thatmustbeme]
Chair: eprodrom
17:03:53 [eprodrom]
17:03:59 [eprodrom]
Pro macros
17:04:29 [shevski]
shevski has joined #social
17:04:49 [Arnaud]
I'm on!
17:04:54 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom: we are at 5 minutes after and I cound 5 people who have presented
17:05:02 [Arnaud]
17:05:08 [sandro]
17:05:08 [tsyesika]
17:05:18 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... i hear a couple more joins so i'd like to start the meeting
17:05:25 [ben_thatmustbeme]
TOPIC: review minutes from last week
17:05:32 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom: link in IRC
17:05:39 [eprodrom]
PROPOSED: accept minutes for May 3, 2016
17:05:41 [eprodrom]
17:05:55 [ben_thatmustbeme]
<ben_thatmustbeme> +1
17:06:00 [aaronpk]
17:06:07 [eprodrom]
17:06:20 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom: we do have a pretty big agenda today so i want to front load the important stuff
17:06:23 [bengo]
17:06:25 [tsyesika]
17:06:26 [annbass]
17:06:32 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom: any objections?
17:06:34 [eprodrom]
RESOLVED: accept minutes for May 3, 2016
17:07:10 [tantek]
17:07:17 [shevski]
17:07:25 [Loqi]
shevski: tantek left you a message on 5/9 at 6:00pm: short answer, in order to break backcompat. AS2 is not expected to be processed "as is" by AS1 processors. I believe AS2 needed to break backcompat in order to actually make necessary fixes.
17:07:32 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... looking at discussion items i think we can do them in order here
17:07:40 [ben_thatmustbeme]
TOPIC: updated F2F dates
17:08:23 [ben_thatmustbeme]
aaronpk: Very quick update, I got in touch with the host late last week, and its no problem to move the date. I have updated the wiki to say monday and tuesday not tuesday and wednesday
17:08:31 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... so that is all set now
17:08:34 [sandro]
+1 aaronpk ! thanks!
17:08:35 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom: great
17:08:49 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... sandro that takes are of the conflict?
17:08:55 [ben_thatmustbeme]
sandro: yes, thank you very much
17:09:03 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom: the time to book your flights is now
17:09:16 [ben_thatmustbeme]
TOPIC: taking webmention to CR
17:09:50 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom: i think that by the end of this discussion we will put a proposal forward to take it to CR, there may be other proposals first
17:10:01 [tantek]
I didn't see any alternatives either in IRC or email since last week so I'm confused about "other proposals first"
17:10:01 [Loqi]
Abasset made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2016-05-10]]
17:10:04 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... aaronpk asked last week what we would need to take webmention to CR
17:10:28 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... i think that we have all or almost all the requirements we expect, is that correct aaron?
17:11:10 [ben_thatmustbeme]
aaronpk: yes, i completed moving the implementations to github and it editors draft has it
17:11:25 [ben_thatmustbeme]
sandro: have the exit criteria been moved out of the draft too?
17:11:39 [ben_thatmustbeme]
sandro: the idea is that when we go to later status we don't want to change the body
17:11:56 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: in my experience, as long as its non-normative changes its okay
17:12:13 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom: with that possible astrisk, webmention is technically ready to go to CR
17:12:18 [KevinMarks]
17:12:43 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... last week i wanted to make sure that as we took it to CR, we make sure that strategically that the work we are doing as a whole is what we want
17:13:00 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... i had a little bit of a concern mapping webmention to our charter
17:13:15 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... how does it map, and what about the other items with the charter
17:13:42 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... i think last week we figured out that we would be publishing social web protocols as a note that would be our description
17:14:10 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... our goal is to move all of our 4 main documents to seperately
17:14:30 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... if we have not formalized that as a resolution, i think we should
17:15:06 [ben_thatmustbeme]
sandro: i think we can keep social web protocols as WD for now and publish as a note before the group closes
17:15:13 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: i agree with sandro
17:15:34 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom: would it be useful to have a vote on this strategy? or have we already done so peice by peice
17:16:02 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: i thought we resolved on that at F2F in cambridge. Is there anyone else that is surprised by that or doesn't remember that?
17:16:09 [bengo]
bengo has joined #social
17:16:30 [ben_thatmustbeme]
sandro: i think it would be to have some approved text to explain it to the world
17:16:50 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: i am fine leaving amy to work on that for now
17:17:03 [ben_thatmustbeme]
sandro: and we need to review it before it gets published
17:17:42 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom: the second point there is, does social web protocols provide that quick description of our strategy. I think it does
17:18:08 [KevinMarks]
17:18:21 [KevinMarks]
(forgot to say that earlier)
17:18:57 [annbass]
17:19:07 [eprodrom]
ack annbass
17:19:10 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: amy has does a great job of comparing differences, etc. Is rhiaro on the line? I think there could be further documentation. If there is anything specific someone wants to see added they should open an issue there. I don't think there is going to be anything contraversial as far as adding MORE description
17:19:53 [eprodrom]
PROPOSAL: Activity Streams 2, Webmention, ActivityPub and Micropub are recommendation-track documents. We intend to take all four to candidate recommendations as they become ready.
17:20:08 [ben_thatmustbeme]
annbass: i think what amy has written so far is great, but what will be the follow on work to this? What next? it seems that the procols note could also say "here's whats been done" and 'heres what we are working on next"
17:20:10 [tantek]
17:20:38 [rhiaro]
I have a bunch of work to do on SWP but way more detail and updates there is on the cards for sure
17:20:53 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: i think thats totally reasonable to add ot the document
17:21:10 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... thats not blocking, anyone can open an issue and ask for amy to add it
17:21:18 [rhiaro]
yep, that's fine
17:21:56 [ben_thatmustbeme]
annbass: i think i'm talking of something larger than that. I'm trying to get at "what comes next after these 4 documents"
17:22:13 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... its a question of what happens with continuation of the working group
17:22:22 [ben_thatmustbeme]
sandro: i think this is a great topic for the F2F
17:22:37 [annbass]
good idea (re F2F)
17:22:40 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: i think its a question of scope
17:22:57 [bengo]
17:23:04 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom: i posted a proposal, does that meet everyone's understanding of what we are doing here?
17:23:05 [eprodrom]
17:23:08 [aaronpk]
17:23:16 [bengo]
17:23:23 [tsyesika]
17:23:33 [annbass]
17:23:36 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: i think thats what we have been doing all along, so i want to know why you think that is needed
17:23:54 [rhiaro]
annbass: if it seems appropriate, we could have a 'future work' addendum or appendix in SWP, following discussion at the f2f
17:24:02 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... unless otherwise stated all documents are rec-track bound unless we state it to not be
17:24:07 [annbass]
sounds good rhiaro
17:24:14 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... i don't want it to seem like we are confused on that
17:24:49 [sandro]
17:24:58 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... if we are working on something, its assumed that it is rec-track bound
17:25:34 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom: Solid for example, is something that is mentioned, but we don't have anyone really working on it, so unless someone picks it up and starts running with it, its not going to get done
17:26:00 [annbass]
my main point, rhiaro, is that one might think that the WG thinks the current 4 pieces of work are all that needs to be done
17:26:14 [rhiaro]
annbass: right, I agree with that concern :)
17:26:36 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: i think thats moved mostly outside of the working group. The critical mass seems to have moved out of the WG, which is fine. There are other examples of productive work being done in sort of an external incubation. We could certainly see something end up back here
17:26:43 [tantek]
no need to exlude SOLID
17:26:49 [tantek]
17:26:52 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom: i think what you are saying is that this proposal is not necessary
17:27:24 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: i would rather not implicitly or explcitly exclude something like solid, unless there is a good reason for excluding it
17:28:03 [annbass]
the proposal just states 4 items
17:28:13 [sandro]
sandro: I didn't take the proposal as necessary complete.
17:28:19 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... the proposal did not mention various other documents, and there shouldn't be a need for that
17:28:52 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: i think we resolved something stronger at the last F2F
17:28:54 [sandro]
sandro: it in no way implies or states that anything else is ruled out.
17:29:24 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: I would rather stick with that stronger version where we empower editors to move forward
17:29:35 [ben_thatmustbeme]
sandro: this all seems like an aside, can we go back to webmention?
17:29:40 [annbass]
17:29:50 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom: there is a proposal on the table
17:29:59 [annbass]
(that was my vote on Evan's proposal)
17:30:01 [eprodrom]
RESOLVED: Activity Streams 2, Webmention, ActivityPub and Micropub are recommendation-track documents. We intend these four documents at a minimum to candidate recommendations as they become ready.
17:30:21 [ben_thatmustbeme]
i'm going to mark it as resolved, i appreciate the consideration
17:30:24 [sandro]
(My vote is continent on it being inclusive, and that's been stated in the meting)
17:30:35 [tantek]
sandro, mine too
17:30:50 [KevinMarks]
17:31:05 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom: are we ready for a proposal for a proposal to take webmention to CR?
17:31:06 [eprodrom]
PROPOSAL: Publish Webmention as a candidate recommendation
17:31:19 [ben_thatmustbeme]
aaronpk: sounds good to me
17:31:22 [KevinMarks]
a proposal for a proposal?
17:31:37 [ben_thatmustbeme]
sandro: technically we are prosing to ASK for it go to CR
17:31:44 [tantek]
17:31:49 [ben_thatmustbeme]
sandro: its clear enough
17:31:51 [sandro]
17:31:52 [aaronpk]
17:31:53 [eprodrom]
17:31:55 [KevinMarks]
17:31:56 [tsyesika]
17:31:56 [bengo]
17:31:57 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom: if nothing else to say, time to vote
17:32:01 [ben_thatmustbeme]
<ben_thatmustbeme> +1
17:32:05 [annbass]
17:32:24 [annbass]
17:32:38 [wilkie]
17:32:51 [shevski]
17:32:54 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom: anyone else?
17:33:05 [eprodrom]
RESOLVED: Publish Webmention as a candidate recommendation
17:33:15 [annbass]
17:33:18 [ben_thatmustbeme]
sandro: wohooo
17:33:43 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: now we have to action sandro to do some additional work
17:33:58 [sandro]
action: sandro move webmention through the process to CR publication
17:33:58 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-89 - Move webmention through the process to cr publication [on Sandro Hawke - due 2016-05-17].
17:34:23 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom: do we have anything else to discuss here?
17:34:57 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: do we want to resolve to publish the current editors draft first and assume that is the version we are taking to CR
17:34:58 [eprodrom]
PROPOSAL: Publish Webmention editor's draft as a working draft
17:35:11 [eprodrom]
PROPOSAL: Publish Webmention editor's draft as a working draft that we believe is CR-ready
17:35:19 [sandro]
17:35:21 [tantek]
17:35:24 [aaronpk]
17:35:24 [eprodrom]
17:35:25 [ben_thatmustbeme]
17:35:39 [annbass]
17:35:45 [wilkie]
17:35:46 [bengo]
17:36:24 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: what we are basically saying from the groups perspective, this is the version that is ready for CR, but it can now work its way through W3C
17:36:29 [eprodrom]
RESOLVED: Publish Webmention editor's draft as a working draft
17:36:43 [ben_thatmustbeme]
sandro: one way is to write a transition request, and there are a bunch of questions to answer about it
17:36:53 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: is that something that has to be done privately?
17:37:01 [eprodrom]
RESOLVED: Publish Webmention editor's draft as a working draft that we believe is CR-ready
17:37:06 [ben_thatmustbeme]
sandro: i'm used to it being done on a wiki
17:37:31 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom: do we have anything ELSE to do on taking webmention to CR
17:37:47 [tantek]
I think that's all the WG can do. Now it's up to the chairs, sandro, to move it through W3C process.
17:37:51 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... i think that for next weeks call we should probably give an update on where we are but otherwise its moving along nicely
17:37:57 [ben_thatmustbeme]
TOPIC: AS2 status
17:39:04 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom: a quick update, we are at inbox 0 on issues for AS2. I did a new editors draft this morning that closes all the outstanding issues. That was one of our big items for taking AS2 to CR
17:39:25 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... what i'd like next is are there any questions about as2, issues on it, etc
17:39:33 [KevinMarks]
I sent one last week in chat, not GH
17:39:49 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: were there any issues that you felt you had to make a decision on despite objections?
17:40:06 [aaronpk]
17:40:25 [eprodrom]
ack aaronpk
17:40:29 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom: probably the one on the relationship schema, i think that we came to a solution that everyone was happy with, but the differences were minimal and we came up wiht reasonable compromises there
17:40:57 [ben_thatmustbeme]
aaronpk: i was just looking throught them and i don't see any labels on them and i thought we were going to do that for them all
17:41:06 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom: i will go back through them and do that
17:41:21 [eprodrom]
17:41:26 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom: any other question?
17:41:34 [ben_thatmustbeme]
17:42:12 [tantek]
changes section?
17:42:18 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom: in that case, i'd like to put it for review for the next week and plan to take it to CR next week
17:42:29 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... does that sound reasonable?
17:42:53 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: i think the better way to say that, is there any issues people have with taking it to CR, bring them up next week
17:43:43 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: have you taken a look at noting what to put as at-risk or not, also have you gone through a bunch of boxes to tick on implementation reports, test suite, etc
17:44:04 [aaronpk]
17:44:11 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom: i think the main one there is the implementation report. we have a validator, and a test suite
17:44:21 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom: are we okay going to a working draft
17:44:45 [tantek]
+1 to a Changes section
17:44:52 [ben_thatmustbeme]
aaronpk: i found it very helpful for myself and others to have a "changes between versions" is there anything like that for AS2
17:45:27 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom: we have not had that up until now, I can do that for recenty edits, and i can probably go back through git-log review, is that worth it?
17:45:41 [ben_thatmustbeme]
aaronpk: i think it is. Its been 5 months since the last WD
17:46:08 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: a summary would be good, it doesn't need to be a diff by diff change
17:46:17 [KevinMarks]
writing release notes is a good idea
17:46:31 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... i think a high-level change log since the last WD would be good
17:46:51 [ben_thatmustbeme]
sandro: on a related note, do we have differences from AS1
17:47:16 [ben_thatmustbeme]
sandro: WHY we changed from AS1, not just how
17:47:47 [eprodrom]
17:48:04 [ben_thatmustbeme]
shevski: i was wondering if there is any documentation of why things changed, whats the major benefit of changing, what does the future look like for AS2 and not worry that there is going to be some other version.
17:48:28 [aaronpk]
s/Its been 5 months since the last WD/It's been 5 months since the last WD with potentially 5 months of people looking at the draft and implementing based off of it
17:49:06 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom: there is a big section that talks about the differences, and it does give a reason for each difference, so there is that, the question is 'whats the benefit' I'm not sure thats reasonable to put into a specification itself
17:49:24 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... i'm not sure that kind of advocacy should be part of a document
17:49:27 [bengo]
i agree
17:49:39 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... i'm okay with drafting that, but i'm not sure this document makes sense
17:49:43 [KevinMarks]
not so much advocacy as reasoning
17:50:06 [ben_thatmustbeme]
sandro: i think its fine being in the spec, from the view that its the motifvation for the spec
17:50:23 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: html5 over html4, css, etc have examples of that
17:50:48 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... it is relevent as we move to CR and its a call for implementations
17:50:57 [shevski]
17:50:58 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... its in our best interest to provide that
17:51:21 [shevski]
(and how have we made AS2 future proof)
17:52:06 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... part of the challenge here is that we don't have that many implementers of AS2 here so we recognize that a lot of our implementations are going to come from outside of the group and i see that as pretty important to convice others to upgrade
17:52:38 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom: what are we looking for, a paragraph on why its better to always update to later specs, or something specific about as2
17:53:06 [ben_thatmustbeme]
sandro: what problems were people having with as1 that made them want to change the spec, like "i wanted json instead of xml"
17:53:34 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: i agree with sandro, what were the motivations in changing it
17:53:40 [tantek]
aside: AS1 had a JSON version as well (in addtion to AS1/Atom)
17:54:17 [ben_thatmustbeme]
annbass: i am hearing two conversations here, 1) why are there changes, and 2) why use activity streams at all
17:54:22 [ben_thatmustbeme]
sandro: no, i wasn't saying that
17:54:48 [annbass]
sandro wasn't saying (2) .. the AS2 intro already covers that
17:54:50 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: as2 is not backwards compat with AS1, what are the main reasons we had to break backcompat
17:55:41 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: empathizing with the implementers, "yes, it breaks backcompat, but we find that it will improve ..."
17:56:04 [tantek]
shevski: please step in and correct me if I'm mistaken about empathizing with AS1 implementers
17:56:10 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom: here's what i would like to do, we have 2 sections on relationship with AS1.0 , one in the introduction, one is much more detailed
17:56:37 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... i think in that introduction another paragraph or two that describes what the differences are and why. what the advantages are
17:56:43 [shevski]
yep benefits!
17:57:24 [ben_thatmustbeme]
aaronpk: i think that would be helpful, i think that also a short summary of the issues of as1 that prompted as2, that would be what a developer would be interested in. what was wrong with AS1 that it needed to change
17:57:28 [bengo]
For me the most important things about as1 -> as2 is the json extensibility story and w3c stewardship.
17:57:53 [annbass]
I'm sympathetic to Evan's problem .. it's very hard to resurrect this info after the fact, if one wasn't the author
17:58:04 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom: this is somewhat archeology for me, i am going to have to ask james for some, research others. Its going to be a lot of digging
17:58:13 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... it feels like a lot of busywork
17:58:45 [ben_thatmustbeme]
aaronpk: i think what shevski is getting at is a much higher level of a 'why at a high level did we break back-compat'
17:58:52 [tantek]
what motivated the decision to *start* breaking backcompat? perhaps a while ago, but developers deserve an answer to that question
17:59:13 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom: so something like 'we are compatible with json-ld, we are supporting different languages, that type of thing
17:59:56 [ben_thatmustbeme]
shevski: the other thing for me, is what new features, and how much thought of the future of as2 and how it can be extended without breatking compatibility in the future
18:00:00 [ben_thatmustbeme]
18:00:09 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom: so something about the future also?
18:00:14 [ben_thatmustbeme]
18:00:17 [ben_thatmustbeme]
18:00:25 [aaronpk]
q- that was from a while ago
18:00:27 [aaronpk]
18:00:32 [ben_thatmustbeme]
<ben_thatmustbeme> i was going to bring up extensability section
18:00:53 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom: does our section on extensability cover that? I'm guessing it doesn't
18:01:19 [ben_thatmustbeme]
shevski: i'm interested in building trust about switching to it. I don't think it has to be line by line or anything
18:02:09 [tantek]
github issue to track this - yes
18:02:12 [tantek]
thanks eprodrom
18:02:13 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom: would you mind adding an issue on github and i'll see if i can draft something up
18:02:17 [eprodrom]
18:02:32 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... some sample text would be great as to what you are looking for
18:02:42 [shevski]
18:02:44 [tantek]
think we could still do a WD
18:02:45 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... it sounds like we are not ready for a WD, so i'm not going to ask for that
18:02:50 [tantek]
if we have a changes section
18:03:20 [annbass]
thanks Evan and Ben!
18:03:29 [tantek]
ben_thatmustbeme++ thanks for minuting
18:03:30 [ben_thatmustbeme]
if thats it, then thats it, thanks everybody
18:03:32 [Loqi]
ben_thatmustbeme has 143 karma
18:03:37 [wilkie]
18:03:40 [Loqi]
ben_thatmustbeme has 144 karma
18:03:50 [shevski]
thanks all!
18:04:13 [tantek]
shevski, I think you've been actioned to open a new issue on with specific "why" questions
18:04:14 [eprodrom]
ben_thatmustbeme: I'll do it
18:04:18 [eprodrom]
trackbot, end meeting
18:04:18 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
18:04:18 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been eprodrom, bengo, aaronpk, ben_thatmustbeme, annbass, Arnaud, sandro, tsyesika, tantek, shevski, KevinMarks
18:04:26 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:04:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
18:04:27 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
18:04:27 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in :
18:04:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: sandro move webmention through the process to CR publication [1]
18:04:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in