See also: IRC log
<scribe> scribe: nigel
nigel: Runs through agenda - will
cover IMSC PR first, then also TPAC, TTML2 (WD publication) and
Profiles registry issues
... AOB?
Andreas: I could give an update on the mapping document if time allows.
nigel: The Webex is the same as
the previous one if anyone wants to add it to their
diaries.
... It has just been extended so the recurrence no longer
ends.
action-465?
<trackbot> action-465 -- Thierry Michel to Ping plh privately regarding imsc rec press release -- due 2016-05-05 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/465
close action-465
<trackbot> Closed action-465.
nigel: There's been some discomfort around the press release for IMSC. Coralie, can I hand over to you?
koalie: Hi I'm Coralie Mercier. A
number of people have been in touch with me and Karen.
... Unfortunately we were not able to publish the PR that was
planned. Some other things
... that occurred resulted in this being deprioritised. Also I
was away in China behind the
... firewall and unaware of what was happening.
... Karen and I met: the materials we gathered for the Press
Release were substantial.
... It was a great opportunity to publish on IMSC 1. I
apologise that we could not do so.
... We still believe we have a story to tell but the timing is
not so great.
... What I want to take away is what are our next good
opportunities for this?
mike: Thanks for the background
and history. The concern from my perspective is not so
... much whether the PR was important to W3C but rather that
there was a proactive
... reach out to 3rd parties to provide material, from
organisations that were not all part
... of W3C. To learn that the PR may never be issued is the
primary concern. Had there
... not been the reach out to 3rd parties it would not be so
important. W3C should
... issue this at some point in the future to save face,
otherwise others will not provide
... material in the future.
koalie: Thank you Mike, I think we're in agreement.
pal: In that case the next step is to figure out schedule.
nigel: Do we have any other opportunities, maybe not standalone press release?
koalie: I don't know. The best
case is a natural trigger to do that press release. This
is
... why I'm on the call. Is there something planned in the near
future? Otherwise Karen and I need to figure out which
secondary trigger we could use
nigel: I don't think there is an immediate future trigger.
glenn: We had the trigger and didn't make the date. Now we just need to get the release out.
mike: We may also recommend that
TTML2 go to a new public WD. Possibly that could
... be a trigger?
... If not, what Glenn said.
koalie: That would be the sort of trigger I had in mind.
nigel: I'm concerned that publishing info about IMSC 1 associated with a TTML2 WD could be confusing.
glenn: If you issue a PR
primarily re IMSC 1 and then also add a note to the end about
TTML2 WD that would serve the purpose.
... And Pierre could add a blurb about the plans for IMSC
relating to TTML2
pal: So the idea is primarily IMSC 1 with a note about TTML2 and plans for IMSC relating to TTML2?
nigel: Yes
<koalie> [sounds fine to me as well, thanks]
pal: Sounds fine to me.
nigel: I think the next steps
then are for some new words to be added for TTML2 and
... IMSC, from Glenn and Pierre. Is the rest of the PR text
ready?
koalie: Yes, it's ready.
pal: If you send me the text then I'll make the changes.
<koalie> [Coralie leaves]
glenn: I'll provide some words also.
action-466?
<trackbot> action-466 -- Nigel Megitt to Review notes to see who if anyone should be added to imsc acknowledgements for special thanks. -- due 2016-05-05 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/466
nigel: I've not been able to make progress on this yet.
https://github.com/w3c/imsc/pull/180
glenn: I didn't see the need to attribute organisations, but would accept them.
nigel: I think we have consensus
both ways; as chair I have a preference for including
affiliations so I'd propose we do that.
... The current draft doesn't list WG members but does list
some specific contributors
... and affiliations, with "Invited Experts" for non-member
affiliations, for John and Mike.
... Mike, is that okay with you?
mike: Yes, that's reasonable.
pal: [checks the wording on the DECE]
mike: [happy with the wording]
pal: The patch looks good to me.
glenn: So you don't want to simplify it further according to my suggestion?
nigel: My preference is to keep
the affiliations, since we should also recognise the
... organisations that provide resources.
pal: The path of least resistance is to merge the PR.
glenn: Can I ask for Skynav Inc to be changed to Skynav?
atai: I'm happy with IRT or the full name to match "British Broadcasting Corporation"
pal: So we'll change IRT to full
name and remove Inc from Skynav.
... Okay I'll do that right now.
nigel: Institut für Rundfunktechnik
pal: I've committed to the
branch
... Shall we accept that?
<pal> https://rawgit.com/w3c/imsc/tmichel07-patch-2/spec/ttml-imsc1-errata.html
pal: Above is the link to the full rendered version.
nigel: Is everyone happy now to merge that?
group: no objections
pal: I'll click Merge...
nigel: Thanks Glenn for fixing
the ToC issue and preparing a new draft for review.
... 3 things: 1. Can we publish the new WD? 2. How do we best
work to allow the group to contribute to TTML2 spec?
... 3) Timing/planning for TTML2.
action-463?
<trackbot> action-463 -- Nigel Megitt to Add an issue on ttml2 regarding 60 second minutes to point to the ttml1 one. -- due 2016-04-28 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/463
close action-463
<trackbot> Closed action-463.
action-467?
<trackbot> action-467 -- Thierry Michel to Ask glenn if a manual modification of the toc would be feasible to publish a new wd of ttml2 -- due 2016-05-05 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/467
close action-467
<trackbot> Closed action-467.
nigel: The WD we're proposing to
publish is at
...
http://rawgit.com/w3c/ttml2/ttml2-WD-201605XX/spec/ttml2.html
glenn: I've had 2 comments from
Mike which I've addressed.
... He filed an issue on changing CEA to CTA, which I
did.
... The open question on that point is that we had a variety of
use of CEA in syntactic
... tokens, in named items. The question is should we make the
change there as well.
... We don't have to decide right now. Where CEA appeared in
the text elsewhere I changed
... it to CTA.
mike: The other issue was that
there was some text copied from a SMPTE spec, which we
... should either remove or seek permission for.
glenn: I already replaced it.
mike: That also resolves the checker error, which is quite aggressive.
pal: We had to train ourselves to ignore that error!
glenn: The new pubrules require
use of HTML5 - any obsolete HTML4 features are
... reported as an error and pubrules refuses to accept them. I
had to make many changes
... in the content to remove those.
plh: You're way ahead Glenn!
glenn: We have a Changes document
that we've been using since TTML2 that lists the
... cumulative differences between TTML1SE and TTML2. That
document is listed in the
... Status section of the new proposed working draft.
... I also updated that particular document to use the new TOC
format as well.
nigel: I noticed that in §8.3.8 token was changed to NCName. Any particular reason?
glenn: That was causing some
parsing problems in something.
... This resolved a syntactic error report in the schema.
... If I recall NCName is a little more generic than a token
(or the other way around)
nigel: I think token is more generic.
https://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#NCName
https://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#token
glenn: I have to check on what that was. We can change it back if it turns out to be a problem.
PROPOSAL: Publish http://rawgit.com/w3c/ttml2/ttml2-WD-201605XX/spec/ttml2.html as a new WD of TTML2
RESOLUTION: Publish http://rawgit.com/w3c/ttml2/ttml2-WD-201605XX/spec/ttml2.html as a new WD of TTML2
plh: Now that we've agreed to
associate a press release with this I'll need to liaise
with
... the comm team to get a date for doing this - I can't do it
in the next 15 minutes.
nigel: okay, fine, let's hope that's pretty soon!
pal: I'm available today to provide some additional text.
nigel: There are two actions
pending for the press release, so let's do those ASAP and push
this along.
... Great, thanks all.
... The next thing to cover is process.
... There's a process that we use elsewhere which is to
maintain a master branch as
... a proposed WD and have each issue resolved in a branch with
a pull request that
... everyone can review.
... That's my preference, since it allows us to review work and
publish WDs more frequently.
... It also makes it easier to track the changes for each
issue.
glenn: This would create more impedance for me, so I'd rather not do it.
plh: Putting changes into Pull
Requests makes it easier for people to review substantive
changes.
... This doesn't apply to typos or non-substantive changes.
glenn: You can also use htmldiff
or gitdiff. When we agreed to the process in Sapporo,
... in my mind this was just for IMSC and I thought I mentioned
that I didn't intend to adopt
... it for TTML2.
plh: It sounds like "it's my way or the highway", bluntly.
glenn: I didn't say that.
plh: That's what I'm hearing. We can change.
nigel: The group has to review each change anyway prior to publishing a WD. Using PRs makes it easier.
glenn: Using PRs introduces a time lag with dependencies between PRs that will give me major headaches.
plh: We can have PRs on PRs. I've
been using the PR process in a lot of groups and it
really
... substantially increases the interactions. The process Glenn
proposes does work but
... we are missing opportunities by sticking to it.
glenn: It does dramatically increase the number of interactions, and they're overhead in my view.
plh: Yes, that's the nature of
this. We see a lot of benefits switching to github. It's not
easy
... but we see a lot of benefits. We're not using github to its
full potential yet.
glenn: We're not using gh-pages either.
pal: We used this for IMSC 1 to address all the comments for instance.
glenn: I think it's the editor's
prerogative. I won't say no for ever. I might experiment
... and see if it works or not but I'm not committing to making
that transition to full PR use.
... The tradition in W3C is that the Editor makes a lot of
decisions about tools and processes
... and we don't want to get in the way of the Editors.
plh: Yes, but we've been changing that.
glenn: I'll give it a try and see
what I think.
... There's nothing about the current process that prevents
anyone else making a change either directly or by a PR.
... I'd prefer it with a PR because that makes it easier for me
to review.
nigel: There you have it! Can we have some symmetry?
glenn: I've said all I can on this right now - I'll see what I can do and if I change my mind I'll let the group know.
nigel: There's no notification on commit with github, but there is for pull requests.
glenn: Can we switch that on?
plh: Yes, we have tools to create notifications on commits, PRs, PRs with specific labels, all kinds of options.
glenn: Are those configuration changes that I can make?
plh: It depends on the kind of
notifications you want. If you want the github built in
... mechanism we can do that, but otherwise we have other
mechanisms that you cannot configure.
glenn: Where would I go on the TTML2 repo to turn on notifications for commits?
plh: It's under settings for the repository.
pal: PRs also allows for
discussion line by line about a specific change, which has
been
... helpful in the past. You don't get that just with a
notification. You can't attach comments
... to a notification of a change set.
glenn: That's part of the
increase in overhead that I was referring to. My preference
is
... to get a bunch of suggestions and comments prior to each WD
and then we can
... address those.
<plh> https://github.com/w3c/github-notify-ml-config/blob/master/mls.json
plh: Is the proposal to notify on every commit?
pal: No, I don't want that. I
would like to be notified every time there's something
... substantive that requires group review.
<plh> I see there "events": ["issues.opened", "issues.closed", "pull_request.opened"]
nigel: By the way you can have a
no issue Pull Request.
... Let's push on from this topic, with Glenn's offer to review
this request on the table.
<atai2> Need to leave...
nigel: The last thing on TTML to
cover is publication timelines.
... Pierre and I have come up with a revised timeline which is
at https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/Publications
... [talks through the picture] Thanks to Pierre by the way for
updating it.
glenn: I like the goal of getting a CR out after TPAC. There are a number of substantial
<plh> https://www.w3.org/2016/09/TPAC/
<plh> 19-23 September 2016
glenn: ... items that need to be resolved, so that gives us around 4 months.
nigel: Plus the discussion time in TPAC and any further resolutions needed.
glenn: I think a lot of the
details of the text and the features will be co-dependent
on
... implementation activity around those features because we're
progressively drilling
... down into semantics that have been by and large left in the
past, in CSS etc and we're
... finding that we need to document those now.
nigel: 2nd CR end of Feb 2017
glenn: Okay, I'm comfortable with that as a timeline goal.
nigel: There are a number of
issues open. I'd like to propose that Mike as Editor gets
to
... merge PRs and close issues. Is that okay with everyone?
plh: Yes.
Mike: I'll close everything bar #8 and #13. I don't think there are any other outstanding PRs.
nigel: Thanks Mike.
mike: There's another step now.
The Media Registration is complete and suitable to
... initiate the process with IANA. I'd like to get that kicked
off so that codecs is confirmed
... or at least really close in IANA's eyes so that this can be
used in MPEG.
plh: I haven't looked at this and will add it to my todo list to figure out the next steps.
<plh> https://w3c.github.io/tt-profile-registry/
mike: I'll close the issues, but the document should be available on the gh-pages branch
plh: The master branch should be discarded.
mike: Okay, from my perspective I
don't care - let me know how you want to handle it.
... If the two are synched then I have no problem deleting
master.
glenn: Why do you need to delete the master branch to transition to gh-pages?
plh: master and gh-pages are just
names. Github lets you specify the default branch to
... use for a pull request. gh-pages has one advantage - they
are automatically published
... by github.io and you don't have to use rawgit.
... Once you use that then having master is just confusing and
could trip you badly.
... My recommendation is to delete master.
glenn: I just want to check and confirm this - can you simply rename the master branch?
plh: No, but it doesn't matter. Just create a branch with the new name and commit it.
glenn: If I change the name of master locally and push it would that work?
plh: I don't know to be honest.
The way I do it is to create the new branch and then
... delete the unwanted branch.
nigel: It's better not to use rawgit since that introduces an additional organisational dependency.
pal: For previewing PRs you still have to use rawgit
plh: That's correct.
pal: That's where I think the most value is, since you want to review the pull requests.
plh: Whichever branch you want to use is fine, but don't create the dependency to update both branches.
mike: Back to profile registry,
this is a normative reference from an MPEG document to
... the WG page. I don't know if there's a link anymore to the
profile registry?
nigel: We can create one if there isn't.
mike: This needs to be discoverable from w3.org.
<plh> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/Publications
plh: I'm guessing it's listed on the Publication Pages?
nigel: No it's not.
<scribe> ACTION: plh Add link to the TTML Profiles Registry page from the TTWG home page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/05/05-tt-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-468 - Add link to the ttml profiles registry page from the ttwg home page [on Philippe Le Hégaret - due 2016-05-12].
mike: In the meantime people can
keep working on the registry. We need a discoverable
... link to the registry document.
... The MPEG spec points to all sorts of codecs parameters for
all sorts of media types
... and we require a link that can be used. It will be used by
DASH and others for folk
... wanting to look to see what's in the files. I hesitate to
point to a particular place because
... the document can move around.
glenn: Can we fix this by putting it in the /TR space as a WG Note?
plh: Let me ask a question - what's the status of this? It's not a Rec.
nigel: It's a WG Note. We do need to be able to update it.
plh: That's fine, and it can be done automatically as well.
mike: The issues on it are editorial. It's good to go today.
glenn: If we have the document in
the /TR space then we have a stable link that can
... be referenced in the ISO documents.
PROPOSAL: Publish the TTML Profiles Registry as a WG Note
nigel: On the basis that we can change it?
plh: I need permission first time, then after that we can automate it.
nigel: So we review a PR and then
when we merge it into the default branch it gets
... published to /TR automatically?
plh: That's correct.
RESOLUTION: We will publish the TTML Profiles Registry as a WG Note on /TR and enable automated publication of updates following PR review and consensus.
action-459?
<trackbot> action-459 -- Thierry Michel to Process the PR at https://github.com/w3c/tt-profile-registry/pull/3 and post for review to the reflector -- due 2016-04-21 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/459
close action-459
<trackbot> Closed action-459.
nigel: We did the two things in this action, not necessarily in the right order.
<scribe> ACTION: plh Publish the TTML Profiles Registry as a Note and begin the IANA registry process [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/05/05-tt-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-469 - Publish the ttml profiles registry as a note and begin the iana registry process [on Philippe Le Hégaret - due 2016-05-12].
plh: I expect the Note will be
published on Tuesday.
... You can keep doing whatever you want in the Repo Mike.
nigel: Can we delete the master branch please?
plh: Sure, I'm doing it now.
mike: Then the only substantive thing to do is to close the open issues.
plh: The github branch "master" has been deleted.
nigel: I have had some feedback
from members but have not collated it yet. The issue
... is how we deal with the clash with the Web & TV IG.
plh: The schedule is draft at the moment.
nigel: Yes, understood. Given the
time I propose to come back to this next time.
... Thanks everyone for your flexibility today, and for a
really productive meeting. [adjourns meeting]