13:59:46 RRSAgent has joined #tt 13:59:46 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/05/05-tt-irc 13:59:48 RRSAgent, make logs public 13:59:48 Zakim has joined #tt 13:59:50 Zakim, this will be TTML 13:59:50 ok, trackbot 13:59:51 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 13:59:51 Date: 05 May 2016 14:00:33 mike has joined #tt 14:01:33 hu... 14:02:35 s/hu.../ 14:02:40 pal has joined #tt 14:02:43 scribe: nigel 14:02:45 chair: Nigel 14:04:41 present+ Coralie 14:04:55 Present+ plh, Glenn, Nigel, Mike, Pierre, 14:05:25 Present+ Andreas 14:06:03 Regrets: Thierry 14:06:19 Regrets+ Frans 14:06:29 Topic: This Meeting 14:08:54 nigel: Runs through agenda - will cover IMSC PR first, then also TPAC, TTML2 (WD publication) and Profiles registry issues 14:08:59 nigel: AOB? 14:09:19 Andreas: I could give an update on the mapping document if time allows. 14:09:50 nigel: The Webex is the same as the previous one if anyone wants to add it to their diaries. 14:10:07 ... It has just been extended so the recurrence no longer ends. 14:10:13 Topic: IMSC 14:10:31 action-465? 14:10:31 action-465 -- Thierry Michel to Ping plh privately regarding imsc rec press release -- due 2016-05-05 -- OPEN 14:10:31 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/465 14:10:48 close action-465 14:10:48 Closed action-465. 14:11:45 nigel: There's been some discomfort around the press release for IMSC. Coralie, can I hand over to you? 14:12:05 koalie: Hi I'm Coralie Mercier. A number of people have been in touch with me and Karen. 14:12:19 ... Unfortunately we were not able to publish the PR that was planned. Some other things 14:12:39 ... that occurred resulted in this being deprioritised. Also I was away in China behind the 14:12:50 ... firewall and unaware of what was happening. 14:13:05 ... Karen and I met: the materials we gathered for the Press Release were substantial. 14:13:17 ... It was a great opportunity to publish on IMSC 1. I apologise that we could not do so. 14:13:30 ... We still believe we have a story to tell but the timing is not so great. 14:13:54 ... What I want to take away is what are our next good opportunities for this? 14:14:07 mike: Thanks for the background and history. The concern from my perspective is not so 14:14:22 ... much whether the PR was important to W3C but rather that there was a proactive 14:14:37 ... reach out to 3rd parties to provide material, from organisations that were not all part 14:14:52 ... of W3C. To learn that the PR may never be issued is the primary concern. Had there 14:15:04 ... not been the reach out to 3rd parties it would not be so important. W3C should 14:15:15 ... issue this at some point in the future to save face, otherwise others will not provide 14:15:18 ... material in the future. 14:15:26 koalie: Thank you Mike, I think we're in agreement. 14:15:50 pal: In that case the next step is to figure out schedule. 14:16:04 nigel: Do we have any other opportunities, maybe not standalone press release? 14:16:16 koalie: I don't know. The best case is a natural trigger to do that press release. This is 14:16:29 ... why I'm on the call. Is there something planned in the near future? Otherwise Karen 14:17:15 s/Karen/Karen and I need to figure out which secondary trigger we could use/ 14:17:57 nigel: I don't think there is an immediate future trigger. 14:18:16 glenn: We had the trigger and didn't make the date. Now we just need to get the release out. 14:18:40 mike: We may also recommend that TTML2 go to a new public WD. Possibly that could 14:18:43 ... be a trigger? 14:18:50 ... If not, what Glenn said. 14:18:57 koalie: That would be the sort of trigger I had in mind. 14:19:36 nigel: I'm concerned that publishing info about IMSC 1 associated with a TTML2 WD could be confusing. 14:20:12 glenn: If you issue a PR primarily re IMSC 1 and then also add a note to the end about TTML2 WD that would serve the purpose. 14:20:29 RRSagent, make minutes 14:20:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/05-tt-minutes.html koalie 14:20:36 glenn: And Pierre could add a blurb about the plans for IMSC relating to TTML2 14:20:54 pal: So the idea is primarily IMSC 1 with a note about TTML2 and plans for IMSC relating to TTML2? 14:20:56 nigel: Yes 14:20:57 [sounds fine to me as well, thanks] 14:21:03 pal: Sounds fine to me. 14:22:07 nigel: I think the next steps then are for some new words to be added for TTML2 and 14:22:19 ... IMSC, from Glenn and Pierre. Is the rest of the PR text ready? 14:22:24 koalie: Yes, it's ready. 14:22:59 pal: If you send me the text then I'll make the changes. 14:23:02 [Coralie leaves] 14:23:09 koalie has left #tt 14:23:21 glenn: I'll provide some words also. 14:23:22 atai2 has joined #tt 14:23:52 action-466? 14:23:52 action-466 -- Nigel Megitt to Review notes to see who if anyone should be added to imsc acknowledgements for special thanks. -- due 2016-05-05 -- OPEN 14:23:52 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/466 14:24:33 nigel: I've not been able to make progress on this yet. 14:24:40 https://github.com/w3c/imsc/pull/180 14:25:30 rrsagent, generate minutes 14:25:30 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/05-tt-minutes.html plh 14:25:48 glenn: I didn't see the need to attribute organisations, but would accept them. 14:26:03 nigel: I think we have consensus both ways; as chair I have a preference for including affiliations so I'd propose we do that. 14:27:47 ... The current draft doesn't list WG members but does list some specific contributors 14:28:18 ... and affiliations, with "Invited Experts" for non-member affiliations, for John and Mike. 14:28:22 ... Mike, is that okay with you? 14:28:27 mike: Yes, that's reasonable. 14:28:41 pal: [checks the wording on the DECE] 14:28:47 mike: [happy with the wording] 14:28:52 pal: The patch looks good to me. 14:29:02 glenn: So you don't want to simplify it further according to my suggestion? 14:31:55 nigel: My preference is to keep the affiliations, since we should also recognise the 14:32:08 ... organisations that provide resources. 14:32:33 pal: The path of least resistance is to merge the PR. 14:33:16 glenn: Can I ask for Skynav Inc to be changed to Skynav? 14:33:41 atai: I'm happy with IRT or the full name to match "British Broadcasting Corporation" 14:33:58 pal: So we'll change IRT to full name and remove Inc from Skynav. 14:34:04 pal: Okay I'll do that right now. 14:34:34 nigel: Institut für Rundfunktechnik 14:36:03 pal: I've committed to the branch 14:36:22 pal: Shall we accept that? 14:36:23 https://rawgit.com/w3c/imsc/tmichel07-patch-2/spec/ttml-imsc1-errata.html 14:36:32 pal: Above is the link to the full rendered version. 14:37:01 nigel: Is everyone happy now to merge that? 14:37:08 group: no objections 14:37:22 pal: I'll click Merge... 14:37:47 Topic: TTML2 14:38:01 nigel: Thanks Glenn for fixing the ToC issue and preparing a new draft for review. 14:38:03 atai2 has joined #tt 14:39:06 nigel: 3 things: 1. Can we publish the new WD? 2. How do we best work to allow the group to contribute to TTML2 spec? 14:39:13 ... 3) Timing/planning for TTML2. 14:39:18 action-463? 14:39:18 action-463 -- Nigel Megitt to Add an issue on ttml2 regarding 60 second minutes to point to the ttml1 one. -- due 2016-04-28 -- PENDINGREVIEW 14:39:18 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/463 14:39:35 close action-463 14:39:35 Closed action-463. 14:39:40 action-467? 14:39:40 action-467 -- Thierry Michel to Ask glenn if a manual modification of the toc would be feasible to publish a new wd of ttml2 -- due 2016-05-05 -- PENDINGREVIEW 14:39:40 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/467 14:40:02 close action-467 14:40:02 Closed action-467. 14:40:41 nigel: The WD we're proposing to publish is at 14:41:18 ... http://rawgit.com/w3c/ttml2/ttml2-WD-201605XX/spec/ttml2.html 14:42:12 glenn: I've had 2 comments from Mike which I've addressed. 14:42:29 ... He filed an issue on changing CEA to CTA, which I did. 14:42:57 ... The open question on that point is that we had a variety of use of CEA in syntactic 14:43:09 ... tokens, in named items. The question is should we make the change there as well. 14:43:24 ... We don't have to decide right now. Where CEA appeared in the text elsewhere I changed 14:43:26 ... it to CTA. 14:43:38 mike: The other issue was that there was some text copied from a SMPTE spec, which we 14:43:44 ... should either remove or seek permission for. 14:43:55 glenn: I already replaced it. 14:44:31 mike: That also resolves the checker error, which is quite aggressive. 14:44:39 pal: We had to train ourselves to ignore that error! 14:44:53 glenn: The new pubrules require use of HTML5 - any obsolete HTML4 features are 14:45:09 ... reported as an error and pubrules refuses to accept them. I had to make many changes 14:45:14 ... in the content to remove those. 14:45:19 plh: You're way ahead Glenn! 14:45:45 glenn: We have a Changes document that we've been using since TTML2 that lists the 14:45:55 ... cumulative differences between TTML1SE and TTML2. That document is listed in the 14:46:04 ... Status section of the new proposed working draft. 14:46:18 ... I also updated that particular document to use the new TOC format as well. 14:47:23 nigel: I noticed that in §8.3.8 token was changed to NCName. Any particular reason? 14:47:35 glenn: That was causing some parsing problems in something. 14:47:56 ... This resolved a syntactic error report in the schema. 14:48:15 ... If I recall NCName is a little more generic than a token (or the other way around) 14:48:19 nigel: I think token is more generic. 14:48:24 https://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#NCName 14:48:31 https://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#token 14:48:48 glenn: I have to check on what that was. We can change it back if it turns out to be a problem. 14:49:49 PROPOSAL: Publish http://rawgit.com/w3c/ttml2/ttml2-WD-201605XX/spec/ttml2.html as a new WD of TTML2 14:50:29 RESOLUTION: Publish http://rawgit.com/w3c/ttml2/ttml2-WD-201605XX/spec/ttml2.html as a new WD of TTML2 14:50:42 plh: Now that we've agreed to associate a press release with this I'll need to liaise with 14:50:52 ... the comm team to get a date for doing this - I can't do it in the next 15 minutes. 14:51:09 nigel: okay, fine, let's hope that's pretty soon! 14:51:17 pal: I'm available today to provide some additional text. 14:51:50 nigel: There are two actions pending for the press release, so let's do those ASAP and push this along. 14:52:28 nigel: Great, thanks all. 14:52:36 nigel: The next thing to cover is process. 14:53:44 nigel: There's a process that we use elsewhere which is to maintain a master branch as 14:54:09 ... a proposed WD and have each issue resolved in a branch with a pull request that 14:54:12 ... everyone can review. 14:56:17 ... That's my preference, since it allows us to review work and publish WDs more frequently. 14:57:17 ... It also makes it easier to track the changes for each issue. 14:57:27 glenn: This would create more impedance for me, so I'd rather not do it. 14:57:55 plh: Putting changes into Pull Requests makes it easier for people to review substantive changes. 14:58:06 ... This doesn't apply to typos or non-substantive changes. 14:58:25 glenn: You can also use htmldiff or gitdiff. When we agreed to the process in Sapporo, 14:58:45 ... in my mind this was just for IMSC and I thought I mentioned that I didn't intend to adopt 14:58:47 ... it for TTML2. 14:59:05 plh: It sounds like "it's my way or the highway", bluntly. 14:59:08 glenn: I didn't say that. 14:59:17 plh: That's what I'm hearing. We can change 14:59:24 s/change/change. 15:01:08 nigel: The group has to review each change anyway prior to publishing a WD. Using PRs makes it easier. 15:01:24 glenn: Using PRs introduces a time lag with dependencies between PRs that will give me major headaches. 15:02:22 plh: We can have PRs on PRs. I've been using the PR process in a lot of groups and it really 15:02:38 ... substantially increases the interactions. The process Glenn proposes does work but 15:02:44 ... we are missing opportunities by sticking to it. 15:03:09 glenn: It does dramatically increase the number of interactions, and they're overhead in my view. 15:03:33 plh: Yes, that's the nature of this. We see a lot of benefits switching to github. It's not easy 15:03:48 ... but we see a lot of benefits. We're not using github to its full potential yet. 15:04:05 glenn: We're not using gh-pages either. 15:04:26 pal: We used this for IMSC 1 to address all the comments for instance. 15:04:48 glenn: I think it's the editor's prerogative. I won't say no for ever. I might experiment 15:05:02 ... and see if it works or not but I'm not committing to making that transition to full PR use. 15:05:15 ... The tradition in W3C is that the Editor makes a lot of decisions about tools and processes 15:05:24 ... and we don't want to get in the way of the Editors. 15:05:30 plh: Yes, but we've been changing that. 15:06:15 glenn: I'll give it a try and see what I think. 15:07:08 ... There's nothing about the current process that prevents anyone else making a change either directly or by a PR. 15:07:17 ... I'd prefer it with a PR because that makes it easier for me to review. 15:07:30 nigel: There you have it! Can we have some symmetry? 15:08:34 glenn: I've said all I can on this right now - I'll see what I can do and if I change my mind I'll let the group know. 15:10:39 nigel: There's no notification on commit with github, but there is for pull requests. 15:10:43 glenn: Can we switch that on? 15:11:03 plh: Yes, we have tools to create notifications on commits, PRs, PRs with specific labels, all kinds of options. 15:11:13 glenn: Are those configuration changes that I can make? 15:11:25 plh: It depends on the kind of notifications you want. If you want the github built in 15:11:40 ... mechanism we can do that, but otherwise we have other mechanisms that you cannot configure. 15:11:51 glenn: Where would I go on the TTML2 repo to turn on notifications for commits? 15:11:58 plh: It's under settings for the repository. 15:12:35 pal: PRs also allows for discussion line by line about a specific change, which has been 15:12:47 ... helpful in the past. You don't get that just with a notification. You can't attach comments 15:12:52 ... to a notification of a change set. 15:13:16 glenn: That's part of the increase in overhead that I was referring to. My preference is 15:13:30 ... to get a bunch of suggestions and comments prior to each WD and then we can 15:13:35 ... address those. 15:13:52 https://github.com/w3c/github-notify-ml-config/blob/master/mls.json 15:14:15 plh: Is the proposal to notify on every commit? 15:14:25 pal: No, I don't want that. I would like to be notified every time there's something 15:14:31 ... substantive that requires group review. 15:14:34 I see there "events": ["issues.opened", "issues.closed", "pull_request.opened"] 15:15:17 nigel: By the way you can have a no issue Pull Request. 15:15:49 nigel: Let's push on from this topic, with Glenn's offer to review this request on the table. 15:15:54 Need to leave... 15:16:29 nigel: The last thing on TTML to cover is publication timelines. 15:16:55 ... Pierre and I have come up with a revised timeline which is at https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/Publications 15:18:21 nigel: [talks through the picture] 15:18:33 glenn: I like the goal of getting a CR out after TPAC. There are a number of substantial 15:18:56 https://www.w3.org/2016/09/TPAC/ 15:19:01 19-23 September 2016 15:19:34 glenn: ... items that need to be resolved, so that gives us around 4 months. 15:19:46 nigel: Plus the discussion time in TPAC and any further resolutions needed. 15:20:07 glenn: I think a lot of the details of the text and the features will be co-dependent on 15:20:17 ... implementation activity around those features because we're progressively drilling 15:20:32 ... down into semantics that have been by and large left in the past, in CSS etc and we're 15:20:50 ... finding that we need to document those now. 15:20:55 nigel: 2nd CR end of Feb 15:21:04 s/Feb/Feb 2017 15:21:12 glenn: Okay, I'm comfortable with that as a timeline goal. 15:21:36 Topic: Profiles registry 15:22:07 nigel: There are a number of issues open. I'd like to propose that Mike as Editor gets to 15:22:17 ... merge PRs and close issues. Is that okay with everyone? 15:22:19 plh: Yes. 15:22:35 Mike: I'll close everything bar #8 and #13. I don't think there are any other outstanding PRs. 15:22:39 nigel: Thanks Mike. 15:23:06 mike: There's another step now. The Media Registration is complete and suitable to 15:23:18 ... initiate the process with IANA. I'd like to get that kicked off so that codecs is confirmed 15:23:28 ... or at least really close in IANA's eyes so that this can be used in MPEG. 15:23:55 plh: I haven't looked at this and will add it to my todo list to figure out the next steps. 15:24:27 https://w3c.github.io/tt-profile-registry/ 15:24:30 mike: I'll close the issues, but the document should be available on the gh-pages branch 15:24:37 plh: The master branch should be discarded. 15:24:55 mike: Okay, from my perspective I don't care - let me know how you want to handle it. 15:25:15 ... If the two are synched then I have no problem deleting master. 15:25:43 glenn: Why do you need to delete the master branch to transition to gh-pages? 15:25:56 plh: master and gh-pages are just names. Github lets you specify the default branch to 15:26:15 ... use for a pull request. gh-pages has one advantage - they are automatically published 15:26:24 ... by github.io and you don't have to use rawgit. 15:26:34 ... Once you use that then having master is just confusing and could trip you badly. 15:26:41 ... My recommendation is to delete master. 15:26:53 glenn: I just want to check and confirm this - can you simply rename the master branch? 15:27:14 plh: No, but it doesn't matter. Just create a branch with the new name and commit it. 15:27:37 glenn: If I change the name of master locally and push it would that work? 15:27:48 plh: I don't know to be honest. The way I do it is to create the new branch and then 15:27:53 ... delete the unwanted branch. 15:29:15 nigel: It's better not to use rawgit since that introduces an additional organisational dependency. 15:30:17 pal: For previewing PRs you still have to use rawgit 15:30:20 plh: That's correct. 15:30:34 pal: That's where I think the most value is, since you want to review the pull requests. 15:31:04 plh: Whichever branch you want to use is fine, but don't create the dependency to update both branches. 15:31:24 mike: Back to profile registry, this is a normative reference from an MPEG document to 15:31:40 ... the WG page. I don't know if there's a link anymore to the profile registry? 15:31:45 nigel: We can create one if there isn't. 15:31:53 mike: This needs to be discoverable from w3.org. 15:32:05 https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/Publications 15:32:30 plh: I'm guessing it's listed on the Publication Pages? 15:32:33 nigel: No it's not. 15:32:49 Action: plh Add link to the TTML Profiles Registry page from the TTWG home page 15:32:49 Created ACTION-468 - Add link to the ttml profiles registry page from the ttwg home page [on Philippe Le Hégaret - due 2016-05-12]. 15:33:06 mike: In the meantime people can keep working on the registry. We need a discoverable 15:33:10 ... link to the registry document. 15:35:07 mike: The MPEG spec points to all sorts of codecs parameters for all sorts of media types 15:35:20 ... and we require a link that can be used. It will be used by DASH and others for folk 15:35:32 ... wanting to look to see what's in the files. I hesitate to point to a particular place because 15:35:38 ... the document can move around. 15:35:49 glenn: Can we fix this by putting it in the /TR space as a WG Note. 15:36:10 plh: Let me ask a question - what's the status of this? It's not a Rec. 15:36:18 nigel: It's a WG Note. We do need to be able to update it. 15:36:26 plh: That's fine, and it can be done automatically as well. 15:36:43 mike: The issues on it are editorial. It's good to go today. 15:36:53 glenn: If we have the document in the /TR space then we have a stable link that can 15:37:01 ... be referenced in the ISO documents. 15:37:24 PROPOSAL: Publish the TTML Profiles Registry as a WG Note 15:37:51 nigel: On the basis that we can change it? 15:38:01 plh: I need permission first time, then after that we can automate it. 15:38:13 nigel: So we review a PR and then when we merge it into the default branch it gets 15:38:18 ... published to /TR automatically? 15:38:23 plh: That's correct. 15:39:05 RESOLUTION: We will publish the TTML Profiles Registry as a WG Note on /TR and enable automated publication of updates following PR review and consensus. 15:39:23 action-459? 15:39:23 action-459 -- Thierry Michel to Process the PR at https://github.com/w3c/tt-profile-registry/pull/3 and post for review to the reflector -- due 2016-04-21 -- OPEN 15:39:23 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/459 15:39:31 close action-459 15:39:31 Closed action-459. 15:39:52 nigel: We did the two things in this action, not necessarily in the right order. 15:40:45 Action: plh Publish the TTML Profiles Registry as a Note and begin the IANA registry process 15:40:45 Created ACTION-469 - Publish the ttml profiles registry as a note and begin the iana registry process [on Philippe Le Hégaret - due 2016-05-12]. 15:40:54 plh: I expect the Note will be published on Tuesday. 15:41:05 plh: You can keep doing whatever you want in the Repo Mike. 15:41:27 nigel: Can we delete the master branch please? 15:41:32 plh: Sure, I'm doing it now. 15:41:57 mike: Then the only substantive thing to do is to close the open issues. 15:42:06 plh: The github branch "master" has been deleted. 15:46:10 Topic: TPAC 15:46:27 nigel: I have had some feedback from members but have not collated it yet. The issue 15:46:34 ... is how we deal with the clash with the Web & TV IG. 15:46:41 plh: The schedule is draft at the moment. 15:46:56 nigel: Yes, understood. Given the time I propose to come back to this next time. 15:47:17 ... Thanks everyone for your flexibility today, and for a really productive meeting. [adjourns meeting] 15:47:23 rrsagent, generate minutes 15:47:23 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/05-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:55:31 s/[talks through the picture]/[talks through the picture] Thanks to Pierre by the way for updating it. 15:57:07 s/as a WG Note./as a WG Note? 15:57:50 rrsagent, generate minutes 15:57:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/05-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:58:38 ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 15:58:39 rrsagent, generate minutes 15:58:39 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/05-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:08:58 Zakim has left #tt 17:11:16 zcorpan has joined #tt 18:12:01 zcorpan has joined #tt 18:32:44 zcorpan has joined #tt 20:51:17 zcorpan has joined #tt 23:00:09 zcorpan has joined #tt