IRC log of dpub on 2016-05-02

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14:48:35 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
14:48:37 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
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Zakim, this will be dpub
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ok, trackbot
14:48:40 [trackbot]
Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
14:48:40 [trackbot]
Date: 02 May 2016
14:48:54 [ivan]
14:49:10 [ivan]
ivan has changed the topic to: agenda telco 2016-05-02:
14:49:21 [ivan]
Chair: Markus
14:49:48 [ivan]
Regrets+ Ayla, Heather, Daniel, Vlad, Jean
14:53:25 [mgylling]
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14:55:05 [TimCole]
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14:56:40 [clapierre]
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14:58:12 [NickRuffilo]
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14:59:11 [ivan]
Present+ Ivan
14:59:14 [dauwhe]
present+ dauwhe
14:59:29 [TimCole]
Present+ Tim_Cole
14:59:35 [ShaneM]
14:59:41 [Bill_Kasdorf]
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15:00:34 [pkra]
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15:00:58 [mgylling]
present+ Markus_Gylling
15:01:28 [dauwhe]
scribenick: dauwhe
15:01:40 [astearns]
present+ astearns
15:02:30 [brady_duga]
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15:02:33 [laudrain]
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15:02:37 [brady_duga]
present+ duga
15:02:42 [Bill_Kasdorf]
present+ Bill_Kasdorf
15:02:55 [dauwhe]
mgylling: major topic today is annotations
15:03:00 [laudrain]
present+ Luc Audrain
15:03:02 [dauwhe]
... but rob is stuck in traffic
15:03:15 [dauwhe]
... tim, ivan... is this a reason to reschedule?
15:03:23 [dauwhe]
ivan: I think we can manage
15:03:32 [dauwhe]
Bill_Kasdorf: can we move it to the end?
15:03:35 [dauwhe]
mgylling: sure
15:03:45 [bjdmeest]
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15:03:51 [dauwhe]
... OK. Let's do everything else first
15:03:57 [mgylling]
15:03:58 [dauwhe]
... minutes from last week
15:04:05 [dauwhe]
... any objections to approving?
15:04:21 [dauwhe]
... minutes approved.
15:04:40 [dauwhe]
... it's conference season. Next week many of us will be in Chicago for IDPF
15:04:48 [dauwhe]
... so I suggest we cancel the meeting on the 9th
15:04:55 [lrosenth]
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15:05:02 [dauwhe]
... and there's another conference in Stockholm the next week
15:05:03 [bjdmeest]
Present+ Ben_De_Meester
15:05:13 [lrosenth]
present+ Leonard
15:05:15 [dauwhe]
... let's wait on deciding about the 16th
15:05:17 [pkra]
present+ Peter Krautzberger.
15:05:24 [ivan]
Regrets+ Tzviya
15:05:33 [dauwhe]
... we should be back to normal week of May 23
15:05:45 [dauwhe]
... which is the week of the virtual F2F
15:05:52 [mgylling]
15:05:54 [dauwhe]
... so we need to work on the agenda for the virtual F2F
15:06:25 [dauwhe]
... so let's spend some time on this
15:06:38 [dauwhe]
... they are sometimes great and sometimes not
15:07:01 [dauwhe]
... which topics are most critical to cover?
15:07:18 [dauwhe]
... we've already mentioned documents that are nearly finished
15:07:29 [dauwhe]
... Charles, Deborah, and their team finished the a11y note
15:07:39 [ivan]
15:07:45 [dauwhe]
... the main topic would be the use cases collection
15:07:51 [dauwhe]
... are there other things we should add?
15:07:52 [mgylling]
ack ivan
15:08:00 [dauwhe]
ivan: on the previous comment
15:08:08 [dauwhe]
... I've made a new version of the pwp draft
15:08:23 [dauwhe]
... which merged with locator work and jettisoned the use cases
15:08:30 [dauwhe]
... it's on a separate branch
15:08:37 [dauwhe]
... if you think it's ok I can merge
15:08:45 [dauwhe]
... or I can merge now then respond to issues
15:08:51 [dauwhe]
mgylling: is this a f2f topic?
15:08:58 [dauwhe]
ivan: no, this is about documents
15:09:14 [mgylling]
15:09:22 [david_stroup]
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15:09:47 [dauwhe]
ivan: I think that the use case document is the absolutely highest priority document
15:09:51 [cmaden21]
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15:09:58 [dauwhe]
... i don't mind if this is the only topic
15:10:01 [cmaden21]
+present Chris_Maden
15:10:02 [dauwhe]
mgylling: i agree
15:10:10 [dauwhe]
ivan: we can talk about the manifest format
15:10:15 [dauwhe]
... but that has a lower priority
15:10:26 [dauwhe]
lrosenth: and we need a straw man
15:10:36 [dauwhe]
mgylling: straw man of what?
15:10:40 [dauwhe]
ivan: manifest
15:10:50 [dauwhe]
... the real issue is format and syntax of manifest
15:11:48 [dauwhe]
mgylling: we could ask dave and hadrien to discuss BFF manifest work
15:12:04 [ivan]
15:12:04 [dauwhe]
... in order to see what topics within the use cases we should focus on
15:12:09 [dauwhe]
... manifest is one
15:12:16 [dauwhe]
... we've talked about portability and packaging
15:12:25 [ivan]
15:12:31 [dauwhe]
... why do you need portable docuemnts when you have the web?
15:12:36 [dauwhe]
... what are those high-level use cases?
15:12:50 [dauwhe]
... we've been touching on what are the requirements of the package itself?
15:13:01 [dauwhe]
... like streamability, random access, digital signatures, etc
15:13:06 [dauwhe]
... we have some work to do there
15:13:13 [lrosenth]
15:13:14 [dauwhe]
... and maybe manifests is a sub-discussion there
15:13:17 [dauwhe]
ivan: I think so
15:13:28 [mgylling]
15:13:51 [dauwhe]
... when you talk to web people, the question is why isn't the web enough?
15:14:08 [dauwhe]
... that's the general question to which we have to have very good answers
15:14:18 [dauwhe]
... including business cases, production flows, etc
15:14:30 [dauwhe]
... the packaging format (zip vs nonzip) is secondary
15:14:31 [mgylling]
ack lrosen
15:14:35 [dauwhe]
lrosenth: I agree
15:14:43 [dauwhe]
... i think the use cases will address a lot of that
15:14:55 [dauwhe]
... to both package and offline cases
15:15:12 [dauwhe]
... one of which being stuff we put to the side--the package and offline scenario
15:15:29 [dauwhe]
mgylling: packaging, manifest... do we want a 3rd and 4th topic?
15:15:32 [dauwhe]
ivan: security
15:15:45 [dauwhe]
... i'm not taking about the D-word
15:15:48 [dauwhe]
mgylling: privacy?
15:16:06 [dauwhe]
ivan: the security in terms of hacking into a publication, javascript as security issue, etc
15:16:10 [laudrain]
security in terms of rights
15:16:23 [dauwhe]
lrosenth: in some ways they're related
15:16:47 [dauwhe]
... both fall into the category of surprising the user
15:16:58 [dauwhe]
... they're used to web pages, and what they can and can't do
15:17:08 [dauwhe]
... they're used to publications, and what they can and can't do
15:17:12 [dauwhe]
... but now we're blending
15:17:22 [dauwhe]
... are people used to movies in publication, touch events
15:17:31 [dauwhe]
... but how do users feel about analytics?
15:17:38 [dauwhe]
... about publications that phone home?
15:17:47 [dauwhe]
... that's where security and privacy come together
15:18:00 [cmaden21]
present+ Chris_Maden
15:18:01 [dauwhe]
... we're creating publications that are different than they've ever been
15:18:07 [dauwhe]
ivan: these are all important points
15:18:14 [dauwhe]
15:18:40 [mgylling]
ack dave
15:18:45 [mgylling]
ack dau
15:18:55 [clapierre]
present+ Charles_LaPierre
15:19:12 [lrosenth]
15:19:22 [mgylling]
ack lros
15:19:25 [rdeltour]
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15:19:36 [dauwhe]
dauwhe: we should learn from the problems of EPUB. Single origin is core of web security, and that might not work here
15:19:50 [dauwhe]
lrosenth: we also need to consider the environments, like package and manifest
15:20:05 [dauwhe]
... how is this material exposed? The origin model may vary
15:20:31 [dauwhe]
mgylling: OK. packaging with manifest as sub-discussion. Security/Privacy. Those may be enough.
15:20:35 [rebecaruiz]
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15:20:41 [dauwhe]
... we don't want to be shallow. We want to work and prose and materials.
15:21:04 [dauwhe]
... so we probably want an interactive editing environment, like google docs
15:22:24 [dauwhe]
mgylling: Dave, would you agree that the f2f is is a good time to do an introduction to manifest?
15:22:42 [dauwhe]
dauwhe: I'm worried we'd get lost in the weeds
15:22:46 [clapierre]
15:22:50 [mgylling]
15:22:54 [mgylling]
ack cla
15:23:06 [dauwhe]
clapierre: do we just go and add ourselves as participants to the f2f?
15:23:12 [dauwhe]
mgylling: On wiki page? Sure.
15:23:19 [dauwhe]
... ivan, is that the intent?
15:23:20 [rebecaruiz]
15:23:25 [dauwhe]
ivan: yes.
15:23:34 [ShaneM]
BTW I would be happy to talk about note / noteref / notegroup at the f2f if the agenda feels thin.
15:23:51 [mgylling]
ack rebe
15:24:25 [rdeltour]
15:24:29 [mgylling]
ack rdel
15:24:36 [dauwhe]
mgylling: we probably have enough of an agenda so we probably couldn't get to noteref
15:24:40 [dauwhe]
rdeltour: can you hear me?
15:25:03 [dauwhe]
... remind us of the timeframe for the f2f on the wiki page? Starts at 12 UTC?
15:25:09 [dauwhe]
ivan: yes, it lasts four hours
15:25:28 [dauwhe]
brady_duga: does it conflict with epub meeting
15:25:30 [dauwhe]
mgylling: yes
15:25:36 [dauwhe]
... but they should move :)
15:25:39 [mgylling]
15:25:44 [dauwhe]
... anything else about the virtual f2f
15:25:49 [brady_duga]
15:26:09 [clapierre]
15:26:27 [rdeltour]
15:26:36 [mgylling]
ack rdel
15:26:44 [rdeltour]
15:27:10 [mgylling]
ack rdel
15:27:13 [rdeltour]
15:27:18 [dauwhe]
rdeltour: quick comment on use cases
15:27:24 [dauwhe]
... heather is working on this branch
15:28:10 [pkra]
that never happens!
15:28:31 [dauwhe]
mgylling: we've wanted to talk with annotations wg for a while
15:28:48 [dauwhe]
... can you describe where you are? A brief recap?
15:29:00 [dauwhe]
rebecaruiz: hello
15:29:19 [dauwhe]
mgylling: can you introduce yourself
15:29:31 [dauwhe]
rebecaruiz: I work for cormac, a publishing service company
15:29:43 [astearns]
s/cormac/Cornac Servicios Editoriales/
15:29:49 [dauwhe]
... we are very focused on syntax and typography in Spanish text
15:30:07 [dauwhe]
... we hope to work in this group a lot
15:30:15 [TimCole]
15:30:20 [rebecaruiz]
It's Cornac, not Cormac… Sorry
15:30:23 [ivan]
15:30:27 [TimCole]
15:30:32 [dauwhe]
mgylling: tim, would you like to give us an intro
15:30:36 [astearns]
present+ rebecaruiz
15:30:39 [TimCole]
15:30:47 [dauwhe]
TimCole: (silence)
15:31:03 [dauwhe]
ivan: why don't I start
15:31:09 [dauwhe]
... I hope he hears us
15:31:36 [dauwhe]
... I have put in the URL for the github because that includes the references to the three docs we've published
15:31:45 [dauwhe]
... we had a charter that included some other items
15:32:03 [dauwhe]
... we could not get on with them as we didn't the right people etc
15:32:14 [dauwhe]
... the work that we started
15:32:33 [dauwhe]
... we started with the work done in the CG
15:32:40 [rebecaruiz]
present+ rebecaruiz
15:32:56 [dauwhe]
... that's more-or-less what we went on with, the data model and the vocab
15:33:16 [dauwhe]
... plus we have the annotation protocol between a server and client exchanging annos and data structures
15:33:29 [dauwhe]
... the biggest difference between what we have now and the CG doc
15:33:40 [dauwhe]
... is that we've made a cleaner separation between the model and vocab
15:33:50 [dauwhe]
... and between the serialization in JSON, and the RDF vocab
15:33:58 [dauwhe]
... the main reason being we wanted to have a doc
15:34:09 [dauwhe]
... that is readable acceptable useable by web app devs
15:34:24 [dauwhe]
... the web anno data model is describing data model in pure json
15:34:45 [dauwhe]
... we had lots of discussion on what terms to use to make it palatable to json users and js
15:34:53 [dauwhe]
... it's actually json-ld but we don't fuss about that
15:35:05 [dauwhe]
... we also have web anno vocab, which is clearly rdf
15:35:10 [dauwhe]
... with examples in turtle
15:35:25 [dauwhe]
... there is also a json-ld context file which maps between json and rdf
15:36:08 [dauwhe]
... i will hand it over to tim in a minute, for the diffs between the cg and the current doc
15:36:14 [azaroth]
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15:36:16 [dauwhe]
... the fundamentals of the models is the same
15:36:33 [dauwhe]
... an anno is a small json structure
15:37:37 [dauwhe]
azaroth: the model is quite straightforward
15:37:45 [dauwhe]
... there's an anno, which is a web resource
15:37:48 [Bert]
15:37:52 [dauwhe]
... it has a body, which is the comment or the tag
15:38:01 [dauwhe]
... and it has the target, which the comment is about
15:38:09 [dauwhe]
... there's the intention, the body, and the target
15:38:26 [dauwhe]
... each of those can have provenance, such as creator, license, intended audience
15:38:37 [dauwhe]
... there can be multiple bodys and multiple targets
15:38:46 [dauwhe]
... and any could have any format
15:38:53 [dauwhe]
... you could have a video about an image
15:39:01 [dauwhe]
... that hasn't changed from the CG work
15:39:08 [dauwhe]
... we've just added some more metadata
15:39:13 [cmaden2]
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15:39:28 [dauwhe]
... the new work is based around the community group's efforts on descriptions of parts of resource
15:39:44 [dauwhe]
... most annos will be about some fragment of something
15:39:55 [mgylling]
15:40:04 [dauwhe]
... like a range of text on an html page
15:40:14 [dauwhe]
... so we have several selectors to find the content of interest on a page
15:40:26 [dauwhe]
... and there are workflow stuff like a state class
15:40:40 [dauwhe]
... that lets you record the http headers that were sent
15:40:53 [dauwhe]
... so if you had a single resource with a uri which gives both html or pdf
15:41:08 [dauwhe]
... then the selectors for how to retrieve the text would be different
15:41:23 [dauwhe]
... so you need to know if user was looking at html or pdf when they made the anno
15:41:45 [dauwhe]
TimCole: we've also clarified how to do very simple text annotations, made easier for json
15:41:50 [Jean_K]
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15:42:07 [dauwhe]
... we also refined the idea of motivations, the role of the body esp. if you have multiple bodies
15:42:13 [dauwhe]
... like in a copyedit environmen
15:42:27 [dauwhe]
... you can distinguish between replacement text and commenting on substance
15:42:52 [dauwhe]
... we anticipate that communities may focus on parts of the model most interesting to them, and develop them further
15:43:08 [dauwhe]
azaroth: talk about protocol?
15:43:08 [ivan]
15:43:24 [dauwhe]
TimCole: you can do server to server...
15:43:39 [dauwhe]
... the question is how this would play out in pwp, take books offline, then come online
15:43:47 [mgylling]
ack ivan
15:43:48 [dauwhe]
... we don't quite know how this will play out
15:43:53 [dauwhe]
ivan: one more thing
15:43:59 [azaroth]
15:44:11 [ivan]
15:44:12 [dauwhe]
... rob has already talked about the selectors and states as being very powerful in selecting parts of a resource
15:44:18 [azaroth]
15:44:31 [dauwhe]
... we also made a separate note which makes it clear that that part of the model can be used outside annotations
15:44:42 [dauwhe]
.... it's general approach to selecting parts of a complex resource
15:45:01 [dauwhe]
... it extracts it and makes it available to people who aren't interested in annotations
15:45:05 [TimCole]
15:45:21 [dauwhe]
... could be an alternative to CFI
15:45:36 [mgylling]
ack TimCole
15:45:38 [dauwhe]
... we've also put CFI as a possibility to express a fragment
15:45:44 [dauwhe]
TimCole: in terms of where the group is
15:45:48 [dauwhe]
... charter ends oct 1
15:45:54 [dauwhe]
... we have these three mature WDs
15:46:00 [lrosenth]
15:46:12 [dauwhe]
... we have an upcoming f2f in berlin to move these forward, get them to CR this summer
15:46:25 [dauwhe]
... try to get to rec by the end of the charter
15:46:31 [dauwhe]
... we don't have as much on client side API
15:46:39 [dauwhe]
... we may have a note about html serialization
15:47:05 [dauwhe]
... and there is work on privacy, on publishing annotations that everyone see
15:47:29 [dauwhe]
... you can signal behaviour with robots.txt, but this is beyond our scope
15:47:31 [mgylling]
ack lrosen
15:47:47 [dauwhe]
lrosenth: could you talk about implementation status?
15:47:55 [dauwhe]
... how many are known, both client and server?
15:48:08 [dauwhe]
azaroth: because of the CG's work in the past
15:48:16 [dauwhe]
... there are a lot of implementations of the CG spec
15:48:28 [dauwhe]
... there are fewer implementations of the WG spec, as it's not yet CR
15:48:42 [dauwhe]
... Europeana has implemented the model and the protocol
15:48:51 [dauwhe]
... for cultural heritage
15:49:03 [dauwhe]
.... ??? has upgraded from the CG to the WG, they have a client
15:49:14 [ivan]
15:49:18 [dauwhe]
... Hypothesis has not yet released their version that implements the model
15:49:24 [dauwhe]
... but I've seen it
15:49:35 [ivan]
15:49:38 [dauwhe]
... that's the client, and they're working on the protocal
15:49:57 [dauwhe]
... the AAAF?? community is commited to moving from the CG spec to the WG spec
15:50:04 [mgylling]
15:50:10 [dauwhe]
... that would be both model and protocol
15:50:17 [azaroth]
15:50:18 [lrosenth]
that was great - thanks!
15:50:28 [dauwhe]
mgylling: does this mean your exit criteria fears are no longer something to fear
15:50:39 [dauwhe]
azaroth: I'm still a bit afraid, but we hope to
15:50:44 [dauwhe]
TimCole: lots of work to do on testing
15:50:54 [dauwhe]
azaroth: there's still work around the edges
15:51:19 [dauwhe]
... things like intended audience and license and provenance that we've added in the WG, there are fewer implementations
15:51:20 [mgylling]
ack ivan
15:51:26 [ShaneM]
there are some concerns about testing ;-)
15:51:29 [dauwhe]
ivan: let me add to the long list two items
15:51:46 [dauwhe]
... one is that I had a discussion with EDRL lab
15:51:56 [dauwhe]
... it's on their plans to implement and add to readium
15:52:01 [dauwhe]
... it's not clear when it will happen
15:52:15 [dauwhe]
... we are hopeful they can do it, and help with testing for CR
15:52:27 [dauwhe]
... the other one which is more a kind of hope
15:52:41 [dauwhe]
... the new version of bluefire will have very good annotation facilities
15:52:41 [azaroth]
IIIF: and in particular: is the spec that uses the Annotation work
15:52:54 [dauwhe]
... for the time being this is their own thing, but might migrate to spec
15:53:08 [dauwhe]
mgylling: there are a few other epub implementations that use the CG version
15:53:16 [dauwhe]
... I can try to dig up the list
15:53:32 [dauwhe]
... rob and tim, rob, you helped us with epub adoption of CG spec, which is still a draft
15:53:41 [Jean_K]
@dauwhe: Please do!!! I'm interested to know the extent of implementation.
15:53:48 [dauwhe]
... which is now waiting to be updated to the WG
15:53:58 [mgylling]
15:53:59 [dauwhe]
... is it ready now?
15:54:12 [dauwhe]
azaroth: I don't think there are significant areas that will change
15:54:29 [dauwhe]
... maybe after Berlin F2F would be the time to start work on that, it's when we hope to go to CR
15:54:38 [mgylling]
ack mgylling
15:54:47 [dauwhe]
... there are a few minor things we need to discuss that might result in trivial changes
15:54:50 [dauwhe]
mgylling: cool
15:55:12 [dauwhe]
ivan: the epub version put the emphasis on JSON, which is part of our current rec
15:55:26 [dauwhe]
... the other thing is that one of the work items
15:55:38 [dauwhe]
... the json schema done for epub should be reused and updated
15:55:49 [lrosenth]
15:55:51 [dauwhe]
... the testing mechanism will use that schema
15:55:53 [ShaneM]
15:55:58 [mgylling]
ack lros
15:56:04 [mgylling]
15:56:32 [dauwhe]
lrosenth: your comments are around EPUB, but we're not far enough along with PWP to talk about that
15:56:40 [dauwhe]
ivan: the rec is about anything
15:56:43 [mgylling]
ack mgyl
15:56:58 [dauwhe]
mgylling: so you have this note with frag selectors
15:57:06 [dauwhe]
... so you won't require implementation
15:57:20 [dauwhe]
... but 90% of it is exactly the same as the rec itself
15:57:40 [dauwhe]
... the only thing which is not in the rec is a mapping onto fragment identifiers
15:57:57 [dauwhe]
... so people who are not interested in annos can use the same stuff for other uses
15:58:13 [dauwhe]
mgylling: so an implementaiton of the rec will have to support xpath and css selectors
15:58:19 [dauwhe]
ivan: that is correct with one caveat
15:58:30 [dauwhe]
... is that not all selectors make sense with all media types
15:58:36 [mgylling]
15:58:44 [dauwhe]
... so implementions may concentrate on particular media types
15:59:16 [dauwhe]
mgylling: the w3c has tried before to introduce new selectors
15:59:21 [dauwhe]
... and it hasn't gone well
15:59:31 [dauwhe]
... do you see a dependancy on browsers here?
15:59:39 [dauwhe]
ivan: long term, yes. It's a big unknown.
15:59:51 [dauwhe]
... implementations can do internally what they want
16:00:01 [dauwhe]
... ideally this would be implemented in browsers
16:00:13 [dauwhe]
azaroth: in the meantime, everything can be implemented in JS
16:00:23 [dauwhe]
... if browsers were to take up heavy lifting
16:00:32 [dauwhe]
... it would make impl much easier
16:00:44 [dauwhe]
mgylling: have you had any expression of interest with browsers
16:00:55 [dauwhe]
TimCole: we've had a long conversation about text
16:01:02 [dauwhe]
... interest but no action
16:01:07 [mgylling]
16:01:10 [dauwhe]
mgylling: we're at the top of the hour
16:01:37 [dauwhe]
azaroth: this is a good time for feedback
16:01:43 [azaroth]
16:01:45 [dauwhe]
mgylling: review the EDs
16:02:03 [astearns]
possible new avenue for dealing with new selectors:
16:02:13 [dauwhe]
mgylling: thanks everyone
16:02:24 [dauwhe]
... next week meeting is cancelled
16:02:38 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:02:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ivan
16:02:43 [ivan]
trackbot, end telcon
16:02:43 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
16:02:43 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Ivan, dauwhe, Tim_Cole, ShaneM, Markus_Gylling, astearns, duga, Bill_Kasdorf, Luc, Audrain, Ben_De_Meester, Leonard, Peter, Krautzberger.,
16:02:44 [clapierre]
clapierre has left #dpub
16:02:47 [Zakim]
... Chris_Maden, Charles_LaPierre, rdeltour, rebecaruiz, Bert
16:02:51 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:02:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
16:02:52 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
16:02:52 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items