16:28:45 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:28:45 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-aria-irc
16:28:47 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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16:28:49 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
16:28:49 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
16:28:50 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
16:28:50 <trackbot> Date: 28 April 2016
16:28:53 <Rich> RRSAgent, make log public
16:28:58 <Rich> chair: Rich
16:30:55 <fesch> fesch has joined #aria
16:31:24 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
16:32:14 <mck> mck has joined #aria
16:32:50 <Rich> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:32:53 <mck> Testing JAWS readback of typed info
16:33:13 <mck> not working, bummer.
16:33:19 <fesch> present+ fesch
16:33:37 <mck> present+ matt_king
16:34:09 <Rich> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Apr/0218.html
16:36:36 <mck> testing again with JAWS 16 instead of 17.0.1962
16:36:46 <clown> clown has joined #aria
16:37:50 <mck> scribe: matt_king
16:37:59 <mck> TOPIC: CFC results
16:38:02 <MichaelC> present+ MichaelC
16:38:46 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:38:47 <mck> keyshortcuts CFC successful.
16:39:39 <mck> RS: could possibly make changes to guidance language if Matt has APG section ready. Will pull in as-is for now.
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16:40:13 <mck> RS: will take separate action to update based on APG after APG is ready.
16:40:27 <mck> RS: Joanie will incorporate language in editor's draft now.
16:40:33 <Rich> Action: Rich update aria-keyshortcuts based on pending APG guidance
16:40:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2058 - Update aria-keyshortcuts based on pending apg guidance [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2016-05-05].
16:40:54 <mck> Joanie: I will merge in keyshortcuts.
16:41:07 <mck> TOPIC: Password role
16:41:22 <mck> RS: sent message to security team.
16:41:57 <mck> MC: Their response was not a "lets meet" response. Seems like they are declining to meet; they do not see need; so we should go foreard.
16:42:23 <mck> RS: Last I heard from Brad is that he didn't have issues as long as we indicate to AT that it is a custom password field.
16:42:36 <mck> MC: I don't recall that last part about AT requirement.
16:43:01 <mck> MC: this discussion was not a publicly archived list.
16:43:15 <mck> MC: we should get something public.
16:43:37 <mck> MC: Reading from a note from Brad
16:44:04 <mck> MC: Does not clearly say we need to indicate that it is a custom password field.
16:44:26 <mck> RS: Perhaps I should write another note to Brad ans summarize a proposal and ask if it is acceptable.
16:44:44 <Stefan> Stefan has joined #aria
16:44:52 <mck> MC: cc both web security and aria lists.
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16:45:19 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
16:46:37 <MichielBijl> regrets+ MichielBijl
16:47:38 <mck> MK: What about using a boolean prop on text fields instead of  a password role.
16:48:33 <clown> q+ to ask what the aria markup is for a custom password input that does not obfuscate?
16:50:27 <clown> ack me
16:50:27 <Zakim> clown, you wanted to ask what the aria markup is for a custom password input that does not obfuscate?
16:50:46 <mck> RS: Prefer role as think it is simpler for author
16:51:40 <mck> rs: Joanie asked if 1.1 exit criteria  could include 2 implementations by AT of the password role
16:51:59 <mck> Orca already does it so we would need only one more.
16:52:20 <mck> MC: Reluctant to add it as a formal exit criterion.
16:52:41 <joanie> s/Joanie/Léonie/
16:52:49 <mck> Janina: that is a slippery slope
16:53:14 <bgaraventa1979> I agree that this may be an issue
16:53:17 <mck> Joanie: agree it is slippery slope to go down that as exit criteria for AT
16:54:43 <mck> MC: Adding exit criteria for requirements that are not normative is not reasonable.
16:55:19 <mck> MC: Adding a normative req would raise a new set of issues.
16:56:45 <mck> Consensus: should not add exit criteria for screen reader  behavior in password field but that it is very important to seek screen reader implementations before ARIA 1.1 is final.
16:57:56 <mck> s/password field/custom password field (role="password")/
16:58:09 <mck> rrsagent, make minutes
16:58:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-aria-minutes.html mck
16:58:30 <mck> TOPIC: ACTION 2054 - haspopup
16:58:35 <MichaelC> scribe: MichaelC
16:59:31 <mck> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action2054-haspopup/aria/aria.html#aria-haspopup
17:00:02 <mck> Revised aria-haspopup definition so that it specifies the haspopup value indicates both the availability and type of popup element.
17:00:04 <mck> Removed sentence: "This means that activation renders conditional content."
17:00:05 <mck> Reason: Activation implies default action. not all popups, e.g., context menues, open with the default action.
17:00:07 <mck> Changed this sentence into a note:
17:00:08 <mck> Note that ordinary tooltips are not considered popups in this context.
17:00:10 <mck> Added language to specify allowed values of menu, listbox, tree, grid, and dialog in addition to true and false.
17:00:11 <mck> Added language to describe how missing, empty, and false values must be treated by user agents.
17:00:13 <mck> Added language to specify that a value of true equals menu.
17:00:14 <mck> Added authoring requirements for keyboard accessibility and focus management.
17:00:16 <mck> Change properties table to specify the value as a token.
17:00:17 <mck> Added rows to the values table for the new allowed values.
17:00:19 <mck> Removed the following language about ownership relationship from values table,  ", either as a descendant or referenced by <pref>aria-owns</pref>."
17:00:41 <MichaelC> rs: unsure if we need menu
17:00:51 <MichaelC> mck: could delete because values equal
17:01:07 <MichaelC> but could be confusing to authors because of exception to being able to specify role
17:01:15 <MichaelC> so want consistent for authors
17:01:26 <MichaelC> rs: also say combobox should pull up menu instead of listbox
17:01:35 <MichaelC> mck: no, because @@
17:01:51 <MichaelC> because @@ is global is weird because could be put on anything
17:01:57 <MichaelC> now need to make focusable
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17:03:04 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
17:03:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-aria-minutes.html jamesn
17:03:09 <MichaelC> potentially to whole document?
17:03:16 <MichaelC> rs: menu on body
17:03:34 <MichaelC> mck: wouldn´t expect haspopup there
17:03:42 <MichaelC> rs: if you want help, might want it
17:04:03 <MichaelC> mck: need haspopup on some element, and not on every one
17:04:19 <MichaelC> if put on doc, and whole doc focusable, AT needs to know
17:04:39 <MichaelC> is haspopup really for this?
17:04:44 <MichaelC> rs: it´s global, so can
17:04:55 <MichaelC> mck: so then need to manage focus, indicate interactive to user
17:06:10 <joanie> q+ To ask about the MUST NOT.
17:06:20 <MichaelC> rs: concern about requiring focus
17:06:28 <MichaelC> could just have keyboard handler
17:06:35 <MichaelC> mck: how would AT tell user?
17:07:35 <MichaelC> maybe a separate key property to inform of the key that activates the popup
17:07:46 <fesch> q+
17:08:27 <Rich> ack joanie
17:08:27 <Zakim> joanie, you wanted to ask about the MUST NOT.
17:08:28 <MichaelC> @@ popup activation
17:08:44 <MichaelC> jd: why forbid exposing if value false?
17:08:54 <MichaelC> mck: confusing to say is not there
17:08:59 <fesch> ack fe
17:09:06 <MichaelC> jd: in platform mappings, may need to explicitly provide a value
17:09:06 <clown> q+ to ask what the default value for aria-haspopup is (is it false?)
17:09:27 <MichaelC> mck: we did for current; maybe this is different
17:09:39 <MichaelC> rs: @@ linux
17:09:42 <MichaelC> jd: not by choice
17:10:00 <MichaelC> mck: should empty be same as false? or ignored?
17:10:14 <MichaelC> clown: in past, no value meant false
17:10:36 <MichaelC> mck: ok, so maybe that´s a ¨should not¨ for AT
17:10:48 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ariaHaspopupFalse
17:10:57 <MichaelC> ack next
17:10:58 <Rich> q?
17:10:59 <Zakim> clown, you wanted to ask what the default value for aria-haspopup is (is it false?)
17:11:10 <MichaelC> clown: what is default value?
17:11:21 <MichaelC> oh, see the false now
17:11:54 <MichaelC> suggest wording of value descriptions to ¨indicates the popup is a menu¨
17:12:03 <MichaelC> to avoid passive voice
17:13:19 <fesch> q+
17:14:32 <joanie> q+ to make a case for application
17:14:51 <Rich> ack fesch
17:15:03 <MichaelC> fe: <missed>
17:15:19 <MichaelC> jd: might need to include application as widget type
17:15:23 <MichaelC> various: no
17:15:35 <MichaelC> mck: but could say dialog is any sort of application
17:15:44 <MichaelC> it´s your out, just another window
17:15:50 <MichaelC> jd: ok, whatevs
17:16:44 <MichaelC> clown: if there is an enumerated type, authors will try aria-haspopup=menu and expect it to work
17:16:46 <joanie> q?
17:16:53 <MichaelC> rs: do we want it global?
17:16:54 <joanie> q-
17:17:31 <MichaelC> mck: worry about putting on anything not designed to be interactive and focusable
17:17:50 <Rich> q+
17:18:04 <MichaelC> putting on random node seems unnecessary, and if done has attributes of easter egg
17:18:21 <MichaelC> so very confusing for screen readers
17:18:33 <MichaelC> creates a whole new kind of problem
17:18:34 <MichaelC> ack r
17:18:40 <MichaelC> rs: can put tabindex on anything
17:19:00 <MichaelC> so fair to say it must be keyboard focusable
17:19:05 <MichaelC> jn: or via activedescendant
17:19:26 <MichaelC> rs: yikes
17:19:35 <MichaelC> clown: further expands what it can apply to
17:19:40 <fesch> q+
17:19:52 <MichaelC> mck: have never seen on anything except a button heretofore
17:20:22 <MichaelC> just worried AT has to keep telling user they can click on something they can´t move to
17:20:32 <MichaelC> clown: just tab to body and hit F10
17:20:45 <MichaelC> to get context menu
17:20:49 <MichaelC> mck: not all browsers allow that
17:21:23 <MichaelC> and rare screen readers intentionally focus body
17:21:57 <MichaelC> bg: trying it out, get ¨has popup¨ notice on everything
17:22:11 <MichaelC> mck: and then what if there are also descendants with popups
17:22:37 <MichaelC> that´s nutso (literal scribing)
17:22:59 <MichaelC> jn: we have use case for this
17:23:03 <MichaelC> table with activedescendant
17:23:10 <MichaelC> focus on header cells
17:23:19 <MichaelC> <and other stuff missed in audio outages>
17:23:35 <MichaelC> mck: if were not global, can address that use case on grids
17:24:06 <MichaelC> fe: use case where people look at text docs, pull out terms and relationships
17:24:15 <MichaelC> there are focusable spans
17:24:17 <jamesn> anything in any of our SVG graphs could have a popup too
17:24:26 <MichaelC> get a popup that tells relationships to other terms etc.
17:24:57 <MichaelC> mck: why not have a link role?
17:25:11 <MichaelC> fe: tells you additional info about that span
17:25:16 <MichaelC> mck: button
17:25:22 <MichaelC> fe: that seems to bend the role
17:25:49 <MichaelC> mck: er, um
17:26:10 <MichaelC> fe: e.g., walk to set of words, see it´s a term, look for other terms in doc that are similar
17:26:17 <MichaelC> doing with buttons would be hard on reading
17:26:26 <Rich> q?
17:26:42 <fesch> ack fe
17:26:45 <MichaelC> but you can get info about that term
17:26:58 <MichaelC> mck: haspopup has been global for a while, and haven´t seen too much bizarre use
17:27:09 <MichaelC> just checking if we have enough language
17:27:14 <MichaelC> maybe can address in Practices
17:27:24 <MichaelC> but the thing about focusable is agreed?
17:27:35 <MichaelC> various: yes
17:27:41 <MichaelC> rs: so seems values are ok
17:27:44 <MichaelC> need to leave global
17:27:49 <MichaelC> important to be focusable
17:29:58 <MichaelC> rs: @@
17:30:19 <MichaelC> mck: played with idea of key property
17:30:35 <Rich> q?
17:30:47 <MichaelC> fe: why a separate one?
17:30:54 <MichaelC> mck: popup keys are different from shortcut keys
17:31:22 <MichaelC> e.g., a shortcut might move focus to the field, but another key open the popup
17:32:05 <MichaelC> rs: could use describedby for now
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17:32:23 <MichaelC> mck: yeah, authors could if they wanted
17:32:44 <MichaelC> fe: would author be wrong to use kbdshortcuts to describe the key that opens a popup?
17:32:54 <MichaelC> mck: if popup is default action, no
17:32:58 <MichaelC> e.g., on a menu
17:33:33 <MichaelC> but confusing in other use cases
17:33:37 <MichaelC> in use case of terms, which term opens?
17:33:42 <MichaelC> fe: opens the one with focus
17:33:51 <MichaelC> mck: shortcut key not really for the thing that has focus
17:34:34 <MichaelC> clown: maybe down arrow is a defacto standard
17:34:51 <Rich> q?
17:34:53 <MichaelC> mck: if you´re inside menu, you´re navigating
17:35:07 <MichaelC> but can have sub-menus
17:35:12 <MichaelC> clown: in which case you go right
17:35:17 <MichaelC> mck: depending on layout
17:35:56 <MichaelC> there´s also question of owning element
17:36:07 <MichaelC> most menu buttons don´t work well if menu is owned by button
17:36:11 <MichaelC> rs: also bad for dialog
17:36:26 <MichaelC> mck: in combobox we use controls, but explicit for that role
17:36:53 <MichaelC> I removed specfiying, and in cases where relationship is needed, should be put in
17:36:56 <MichaelC> not part of the property
17:37:22 <MichaelC> rs: are these changes ok?
17:38:08 <MichaelC> mck: need to adjust language how values expressed
17:38:19 <MichaelC> and change MUST to SHOULD for AT
17:39:08 <MichaelC> RESOLUTION: accept Matt´s changes modulo today´s discussion
17:39:45 <MichaelC> s/RESOLUTION: accept Matt´s changes modulo today´s discussion//
17:40:07 <Rich> RESOLUTION: Accept Matt’s proposal to change aria-haspopup for action 2054
17:41:00 <MichaelC> topic: ACTION-1490 combobox
17:41:02 <Rich> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action1490-combobox/aria/aria.html#combobox
17:41:36 <MichaelC> mck: haven´t circled back to this from haspopup
17:41:44 <MichaelC> would need to update example code
17:42:24 <MichaelC> and change default to listbox
17:42:57 <MichaelC> clown: need to change implicit value
17:43:45 <MichaelC> rs: clarify that if not a listbox, say so
17:44:47 <MichaelC> mck: yes <thinks aloud the rewording>
17:45:08 <MichaelC> rs: how substantial are these changes?
17:45:17 <MichaelC> mck: can do shortly after call, update the branches
17:46:35 <MichaelC> clown: @@
17:46:41 <MichaelC> mck: implicit value means it´s required
17:46:41 <Rich> q?
17:48:25 <MichaelC> rs: controls should be required?
17:48:34 <MichaelC> mck: is; need to add to table apparently
17:50:18 <MichaelC> ...
17:50:29 <MichaelC> clown: mapping needs update to fix errors
17:51:20 <clown> action-2056
17:51:20 <trackbot> action-2056 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Coordinate the mappings for the various AAPIs of the enumerated aria-haspopup values -- due 2016-05-17 -- OPEN
17:51:20 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2056
17:52:58 <MichaelC> rs: sounds like we´re good with these changes
17:54:38 <MichaelC> topic: ISSUE-1023
17:55:08 <jamesn> q+ to say that the normal use is when the AT messes up the computation
17:55:30 <MichaelC> clown: will allow an item where difference is @@
17:55:33 <MichaelC> ?
17:55:35 <MichaelC> rs: yes
17:55:58 <MichaelC> in a big map, might put divisions in a menu
17:56:02 <MichaelC> might not all be in DOM
17:56:22 <MichaelC> does it hurt to include?
17:56:26 <MichaelC> jd: could
17:56:40 <MichaelC> finding practice confusing
17:56:57 <MichaelC> and what if you have radiomenuitem and menuitem
17:57:03 <MichaelC> how do the positions resolve?
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17:57:41 <MichaelC> mck: thought needed to support in spec
17:57:47 <MichaelC> for mapping guide to be able to say anything
17:58:25 <MichaelC> jd: don´t need that to be speced to calculate
17:58:37 <MichaelC> bg: sometimes not conveyed unless explicitly set
17:58:48 <MichaelC> and can have incorrect calculation
17:58:53 <MichaelC> so think needs to be there
17:59:19 <MichaelC> bad authoring, and can say so, but need a way to handle
17:59:44 <MichaelC> jn: incorrect calculation happens with intermediate elements eg divs
17:59:55 <MichaelC> rs: ok to allow author override
18:00:13 <MichaelC> so ok to add?
18:00:18 <MichaelC> clown: as supported?
18:00:19 <MichaelC> rs: yes
18:00:58 <joanie> q+
18:01:17 <MichaelC> ack ja
18:01:17 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to say that the normal use is when the AT messes up the computation
18:01:18 <jamesn> ack me
18:01:25 <MichaelC> ack jo
18:01:45 <MichaelC> jd: when I do the edit, will double check there are issues we missed
18:02:30 <Rich> Action: Joanie add aria-posinset, aria-setsize as supported states and properties to roles: menutitem, menuitemcheckbox, and menuitemradio
18:02:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2059 - Add aria-posinset, aria-setsize as supported states and properties to roles: menutitem, menuitemcheckbox, and menuitemradio [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2016-05-05].
18:03:09 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
18:03:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
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18:13:49 <mck> rrsagent, make minutes
18:13:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-aria-minutes.html mck
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