15:02:56 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y
15:02:56 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/04/21-mobile-a11y-irc
15:02:58 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:02:58 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #mobile-a11y
15:03:00 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF
15:03:00 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
15:03:01 <trackbot> Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:03:01 <trackbot> Date: 21 April 2016
15:03:09 <Kathy> present+ Kathy
15:03:11 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #mobile-a11y
15:03:24 <Detlev> Detlev has joined #mobile-a11y
15:03:59 <jeanne> present+ jeanne, Henny, JonAvila
15:04:15 <jeanne> present+ MarcJ
15:04:34 <jeanne> present+ Detlev
15:06:30 <jeanne> agenda+ review changes to Touch and Pointer
15:06:55 <chriscm> chriscm has joined #mobile-a11y
15:06:57 <jeanne> agenda+ Finalizing Mobile Touch & Pointer guideline and success criteria
15:07:10 <marcjohlic> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_revision_of_2.5.3
15:07:12 <jeanne> agenda+ Finalizing Mobile Touch & Pointer guideline and success criteria
15:07:36 <jeanne> zakim, take up item 1
15:07:36 <Zakim> agendum 1. "review changes to Touch and Pointer" taken up [from jeanne]
15:08:21 <jeanne> KW: We added a 5th exception
15:08:25 <jeanne> scribe: jeanne
15:09:10 <jeanne> ... activation is on the up event -- we were getting into too many scenarios.  There are still issues on what we are calling an upevent.  David is not here to discuss that in more detail.
15:14:59 <jeanne> -1 for the acronym, but +1 for the rest.
15:16:44 <jeanne> present+ DavidMcD
15:17:02 <jeanne> JS: minor editorial suggestions
15:17:41 <jeanne> HS: Add an (e.g. screenreader) to the Note of 2.5.3
15:20:19 <jeanne> DM: Take out the word "Exception" and put the rest of the text back into the list. Split the sentence into two sentences.
15:22:13 <Kathy> https://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/#touch-and-pointer
15:22:30 <jeanne> DM: Remove the "Avoid" from the handle of Avoid Accidental Activation
15:22:56 <Detlev> q+
15:24:20 <jeanne> Detlev There is a sentence in Intent.  THe term Up-event occurs when an action is triggered. Down events can also trigger actions. I think that needs re-wording.
15:24:25 <marcjohlic> q+
15:26:37 <jon_avila> I agree with Detlev
15:29:36 <jeanne> JA: There is a difference between up event and up event activation. There can be an up event without activation.
15:30:31 <jeanne> DM: I can add activation to the Intent.
15:31:16 <marcjohlic> ack detlev
15:31:18 <David> David has joined #mobile-a11y
15:32:14 <marcjohlic> ack marcjohlic
15:32:17 <jeanne> MJ: Is there a reason that up-event is there.
15:32:34 <jeanne> JA: Do we also need touchstart and touchend for other platforms.
15:32:40 <jeanne> DM:  I will add that.
15:33:06 <jeanne> RESOLUTION: Accept the proposal as amended above (in wiki) for submission to WCAG WG.
15:33:08 <Kathy> https://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/#touch-and-pointer
15:33:18 <jeanne> zakim, take up next
15:33:18 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Finalizing Mobile Touch & Pointer guideline and success criteria" taken up [from jeanne]
15:33:47 <jeanne> KW: Now that we have all the SC and Understanding written, we want to finalize this with any changes we may need.
15:34:03 <jeanne> Topic: Understanding of 2.5
15:34:26 <jeanne> KW: We are very Touch oriented, not Pointer.  We don't have a lot of pointer information.
15:35:14 <jon_avila> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Events/touchend
15:35:22 <Kathy> https://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/#touch-and-pointer
15:36:20 <jeanne> MJ: Do we need to say touch gestures.
15:36:32 <jeanne> KW: We need to say touch and pointer.
15:36:59 <jon_avila> scribe: jon_avila
15:37:30 <David> This section also refers to pointer events on non-mobile platforms.
15:37:32 <jon_avila> kathy: agree that we need a paragraph in there about point events
15:38:05 <David> This section also refers to pointer events such as mouse actions, on non-mobile platforms.
15:38:45 <jon_avila> kathy: trying to move away from just mobile as other things have touch screens
15:39:19 <Detlev> "...a single tap on the touch screen will activate the element that currently has focus." should be "..a single swipe on the touch screen will activate the element that currently has focus."
15:39:31 <jon_avila> kathy: not really address all of the things in the section to include pointer specific information
15:39:48 <jon_avila> marc: could we have two separate sections -- one for touch and one for pointer
15:39:54 <jeanne> +1 for overall re-write - I think there is too much wordsmithing to be efficient on one call.
15:39:55 <Detlev> or "..a swiping or a single touch"
15:40:08 <jon_avila> kathy: Thing we could have it in one section -- just missing a few sentences
15:40:29 <jon_avila> david: Add a sentence about mouse and pointer
15:40:44 <jon_avila> jeanne: will take action item to update for pointer
15:40:57 <jeanne> action: jeanne to rewrite the Intent to include pointer.
15:40:57 <trackbot> Created ACTION-47 - Rewrite the intent to include pointer. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2016-04-28].
15:41:01 <jon_avila> kathy: any other thoughts on what to include on guideline 2.5
15:41:07 <jeanne> Topic: 2.5.1
15:41:29 <jon_avila> kathy: Move on to 2.5.1 -- let's read that and see if there is anything to add or remove
15:42:06 <jon_avila> kathy: some success criteria are just touch and some are touch and pointer.  We would keep first three just on touch and others that will deal with both
15:42:48 <jon_avila> david: may want to change handle (short name of SC).
15:43:03 <jon_avila> david: Touch works with AT
15:43:29 <jon_avila> jeanne: what about touch is accessible?
15:43:39 <jon_avila> Jon: Too broad to just say accessible
15:44:40 <jon_avila> david: no more than 10 syllable
15:45:26 <jon_avila> detlev: Need some wordsmithing -- when a screen reader is on, a swipe or touch exploration...
15:45:56 <jon_avila> david: good to put in now before it gets sent over to the WG
15:46:18 <jon_avila> detlev: "turn on" should be "turned on"
15:47:15 <jeanne> Topic: 2.5.2
15:47:35 <jon_avila> david: super long for a SC
15:47:48 <jon_avila> david: can we make it shorter?
15:48:13 <jon_avila> kathy: can we move that paragraph to the understanding
15:48:38 <jon_avila> kathy: can we borrow language from the keybiard trap SC of WCAG?
15:49:29 <jon_avila> david: actually about same length as keyboard trap -- it is understandable and we have a precedence for the lenth
15:49:36 <jon_avila> kathy: we do have a nice handle for it
15:50:15 <jeanne> present+ Chris
15:50:28 <jon_avila> kathy: Chris, did you have something to add for 2.5.5?
15:50:28 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
15:50:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/21-mobile-a11y-minutes.html jeanne
15:50:39 <jon_avila> chris: will look at that specific action item and track that down
15:52:02 <jon_avila> marc: in 2.5.2 -- then focus can be moved away from component -- add in the word "the" -- we should add that in
15:52:24 <jon_avila> detlev: do we have independent activation?
15:52:37 <jon_avila> kathy: yes, next one is 2.5.4 - touch target size
15:52:53 <jon_avila> david: next week we are sending touch and point 2.5
15:53:02 <jon_avila> kathy: Update xx to 44 pixels
15:53:52 <jon_avila> chris: looked up action to defend addition of touch trap requirement to show that it does not conflict with SC 2.1
15:54:15 <jon_avila> detlev: is 2.5.4 just for touch?  Patrick brought up question about mouse user.  Could be smaller than touch.
15:54:56 <jon_avila> kathy: Should we separate criteria for pointer target size
15:55:06 <jon_avila> david: will get push back on target size for mouse.
15:55:12 <jon_avila> david: users can magnify
15:55:42 <jon_avila> detlev: as long as we define some sometime -- only site after x have to follow this.
15:57:31 <jon_avila> David: conversation around timeframe things such as before or after this date.  Likely that is up to the jurisdictions to make that date -- but don't think we will get much success on setting dates
15:57:47 <jon_avila> david: we could require it under WCAG 2.1
15:58:56 <jon_avila> jeanne: have heard since 2008 that it is an issue for people with fine motor skills
15:59:30 <jon_avila> kathy: we should get feedback from working group to make sure we can get it passed through
15:59:48 <jon_avila> david: so much better when you have something to float by them rather than having concrete proposal
16:00:57 <jon_avila> jeanne: are we asking for authors to finger out what the user might be using?
16:01:20 <jon_avila> chris: Moblie and desktop designer are different and we shouldn't force people into one
16:01:40 <jon_avila> detlev: Some sites are used on both
16:02:05 <jon_avila> michaelC: consensus isn't there -- wait before sending to WCAG WG
16:02:19 <jon_avila> david: do see consensus but disagree on size
16:02:29 <jon_avila> michaelC: don't think it's ready to go the group
16:02:31 <jeanne> +1 to work it out before sending to WCAG>
16:02:43 <jon_avila> kathy: we can continue the conversation next week
16:02:57 <jon_avila> kathy: To Jeanne Failure 004 should be removed
16:03:06 <David> 2.5.4 [Proposed New MOBILE Success Criteria] Target Size: A touch target is at least 44px x 44px and the pointer/mouse is at least <xpx> by <xPX> of the visible display at the default viewport size. (Level AA)
16:03:26 <jon_avila> kathy: will pick up pointer discussion next week.  If you have other changes let me know.  Jeanne will put in understanding text.
16:03:37 <jon_avila> david: will drop in some language you can put up on the wiki
16:03:50 <jon_avila> Kathy: Let's start a wiki page on 2.5.4 like we did with 2.5.3
16:04:20 <marcjohlic> Some IAAP discussions on Minimum Target size the past couple of days:  http://connections.accessibilityassociation.org/communities/community-home/viewthread?MID=1409&GroupId=145&tab=digestviewer&UserKey=97893b70-057d-467e-9fd6-49e558e3ea2e&sKey=97ebd69b1d72496b994b
16:04:29 <jon_avila> kathy: told Andrew we'd have this to the WCAG WG by the 26th of April
16:05:09 <jon_avila> zakim, list attendees
16:05:09 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Kathy, jeanne, Henny, JonAvila, MarcJ, Detlev, DavidMcD, Chris
16:05:36 <jon_avila> zakim, make minutes
16:05:36 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make minutes', jon_avila
16:05:41 <jon_avila> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:05:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/21-mobile-a11y-minutes.html jon_avila
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16:08:49 <jon_avila> zakim, end call
16:08:49 <Zakim> I don't understand 'end call', jon_avila
16:09:57 <jon_avila> zakim, bye
16:09:57 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Kathy, jeanne, Henny, JonAvila, MarcJ, Detlev, DavidMcD, Chris
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