IRC log of social on 2016-04-19

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17:01:07 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
17:01:09 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:01:09 [Zakim]
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17:01:11 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be SOCL
17:01:11 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot
17:01:11 [sandro]
17:01:12 [trackbot]
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
17:01:12 [trackbot]
Date: 19 April 2016
17:01:16 [Arnaud]
17:01:19 [annbass]
17:01:21 [eprodrom]
17:01:33 [bengo]
17:01:36 [cwebber2]
dialing in, sorry!
17:02:00 [aaronpk]
17:02:36 [eprodrom]
anyone can scribe?
17:02:46 [KevinMarks]
17:03:24 [bengo]
I will scribe
17:03:45 [eprodrom]
scribe: bengo
17:03:59 [cwebber2]
present+ cwebber
17:04:12 [annbass]
*whoops .. just discovered I was on mute ..
17:04:21 [annbass]
* (was volunteering)
17:04:56 [eprodrom]
17:04:58 [bengo]
eprodrom: Let's get started. First agenda item is approval of minutes from last week
17:05:28 [eprodrom]
17:05:29 [aaronpk]
17:05:32 [Karli]
+ 1
17:05:34 [KevinMarks]
17:05:34 [bengo]
17:05:35 [annbass]
17:05:39 [cwebber2]
17:05:56 [eprodrom]
PROPOSAL: approve minutes of 12 Apr 2016
17:06:05 [eprodrom]
RESOLVED: approve minutes of 12 Apr 2016
17:06:25 [bengo]
eprodrom: Great. That's all for administrative items, right?
17:07:00 [bengo]
eprodrom: May be important to note we're 6 weeks away from Portland F2F. Probably time to make travel plans
17:07:19 [bengo]
17:07:36 [bengo]
eprodrom: next up - Document Status
17:07:46 [bengo]
17:08:08 [bengo]
eprodrom: Tried to resolve all issues [for AS2] Working Draft but some issues were too complex to resolve
17:08:12 [eprodrom]
17:08:23 [bengo]
eprodrom: There is a new Editor's Draft that covers quite a few issues, but not all
17:08:35 [eprodrom]
17:08:50 [bengo]
eprodrom: I'll dig through remaining issues 1 by 1
17:09:17 [bengo]
eprodrom: #297 - Still ahven't resolved, whether we'll drop questions or add a 'Cosed' tag. Need tow ork through with jasnell
17:09:19 [eprodrom]
17:09:54 [bengo]
eprodrom: 296 - Unfortunately, only 50/170 examples have 'name', even thugh it's SHOULD.
17:10:01 [Loqi]
Abasset made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-04-12-minutes]]
17:10:08 [annbass]
s/Cosed' tag. Need tow ork/'closed' tag. Need to work/
17:10:19 [bengo]
eprodrom: One way to resolve is have spec be more specific about which object types SHOULD have name. Alternatively, add .name to all examples. Discussing with jasnell
17:10:26 [annbass]
17:10:35 [eprodrom]
17:10:46 [bengo]
eprodrom: #292 - Think we have resolution on this one. Just haven't added it yet.
17:11:29 [bengo]
eprodrom: 289 - Relationship object. I have reviewed this, and there are some use cases for social networking that we would not be able to represent without this object. So I think we need to remove it in a way that accomodates those use cases, or keep it for now.
17:11:33 [eprodrom]
17:12:30 [bengo]
eprodrom: 249 - There are some activity types with properties that are optional that are not explained in the examples. The prob is there are half a dozen and I need to get them updated in all representations, not just JSON, RDFa and the rest too.
17:12:56 [bengo]
eprodrom: But there has been good progress this week on exit criteria, conformance, etc. Just want to make sure we do the right thing on these last issues
17:13:10 [bengo]
eprodrom: So do we go to WD as it stands? Or take another week to resolve the remaining issues
17:13:14 [eprodrom]
17:13:21 [cwebber2]
I'm ok with going to WD but have no strong opinions
17:13:29 [tantek]
I'd say better to publish a WD sooner
17:13:38 [sandro]
17:13:53 [annbass]
17:13:55 [tantek]
I like the progress that's been made and think the spec benefits from that
17:14:35 [tantek]
17:14:46 [bengo]
eprodrom: For my purposes, I'd prefer taking another week to finalize issues before WD
17:14:52 [eprodrom]
17:14:52 [tantek]
no objections
17:15:09 [annbass]
sounds fine
17:15:46 [bengo]
eprodrom: How to handle all the types of examples in AS2 spec. It is burdensome to keep them all up to date.
17:16:01 [tantek]
which languages?
17:16:21 [tantek]
17:16:36 [bengo]
eprodrom: Wondering if there is a way to edit just JSON and have it render to the other formats
17:16:59 [tantek]
can we ask for volunteers for help with the others?
17:17:01 [bengo]
eprodrom: microdata, RDFa, turtle are onerous
17:17:17 [bengo]
eprodrom: Gonna hold off on worrying for now. If anyone can take on editing those dialects, that would be big help.
17:17:29 [annbass]
did jasnell do all those in the beginning?
17:17:44 [annbass]
(not that I'm sugg he be the updater)
17:18:05 [tantek]
ben_thatmustbeme++ for help with updating the microformats versions of the examples
17:18:08 [Loqi]
ben_thatmustbeme has 140 karma
17:18:19 [bengo]
annbass: I just thought, if he were the one who created it, he may have a technique for all the transforms
17:18:34 [eprodrom]
AS2 questions?
17:18:56 [bengo]
eprodrom: Next up. Webmention
17:19:08 [bengo]
eprodrom: but first. Any updates on documents other than that?
17:19:14 [eprodrom]
Other document status updates?
17:19:17 [KevinMarks]
doing it though code transforms is a good idea, as it helps clarify generality
17:19:22 [cwebber2]
17:19:30 [eprodrom]
ack cwebber
17:19:41 [annbass]
17:19:59 [bengo]
cwebber2: Hello. We've been working through issues on ActivityPub
17:20:00 [aaronpk]
q+ for brief micropub update
17:20:10 [cwebber2]
17:20:46 [bengo]
cwebber2: We've decided to allow submitting objects not-wrapped in Activity, and processor would treat as Create
17:21:23 [bengo]
cwebber2: One area of debate: putting audience targeting on that object (not activity). Jessica thought it would be weird to have audience target on object only in client-to-server.
17:21:45 [eprodrom]
17:21:47 [bengo]
cwebber2: Instead we could put no audience targeting on the object, and server would assume a default (e.g. public + followers)
17:22:08 [eprodrom]
ack eprodrom
17:22:54 [bengo]
eprodrom: A huge part of AS2 is having that access control. All of the object types in AS2 support audience targeting. So it seems straightforward to allow it. Dropping them seems like step backwards to me
17:23:16 [bengo]
cwebber2: Got it. That was slightly my preference too but wanted group feedback.
17:23:40 [tantek]
q+ to ask about audience targetting being a distinguishing feature
17:24:00 [bengo]
cwebber2: Updated draft maybe coming in next week
17:24:01 [eprodrom]
ack tantek
17:24:01 [Zakim]
tantek, you wanted to ask about audience targetting being a distinguishing feature
17:25:04 [cwebber2]
17:25:07 [cwebber2]
to respond
17:25:16 [bengo]
tantek: We had discussion in the past whether we should distinguish for developers when to use each spec. Access control is a key feature for both AS2 and ActivityPub. Maybe we can call that out explicitly.
17:25:36 [eprodrom]
rhiaro: are you on the call?
17:25:46 [bengo]
eprodrom: rhiaro has that come up before?
17:25:48 [eprodrom]
ack cwebber
17:26:53 [bengo]
cwebber2: Audience Targeting is a key feature of ActivityPub, but with AS2 it's supported feature, not implied/core. You can think about using activitystreams in just a published feed like Atom (without targeting).
17:27:20 [bengo]
eprodrom: This is a good issue to bring up and write about in "Social Protocols"
17:27:21 [eprodrom]
ack annbass
17:27:43 [jasnell_]
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17:28:06 [bengo]
annbass: I have on paper a bunch of edits (logic/English correctness). I think they would be best for me to send via snailmail to jasnell but couldn't get address. eprodrom can I send to you?
17:28:16 [bengo]
eprodrom: yes
17:28:20 [eprodrom]
ack aaronpk
17:28:20 [Zakim]
aaronpk, you wanted to discuss brief micropub update
17:28:31 [cwebber2]
I think so too
17:28:43 [bengo]
aaronpk: Micropub status
17:28:53 [aaronpk]
17:29:17 [bengo]
aaronpk: There have been a few changes since latest WD on March 1. Couple of simplifications of syntax. Ultimately minor.
17:29:21 [annbass]
s/bunch of edits /bunch of edits for Activity Streams 2.0 WD dated 15 Dec 2015 /
17:29:56 [bengo]
aaronpk: Also been working on parallel update that is unpublished. It takes into account f2f discussion on converting JSON syntax to ActivityPub style. In the meantime, someone came along and implemented the ED in node.js Supports Create Update Delete.
17:30:46 [bengo]
aaronpk: So I tried to get feedback on spec, and he said he prefers existing syntax to new one. And there were some benefits of old one that couldn't be accomodated in new syntax.
17:31:00 [aaronpk]
17:31:20 [bengo]
aaronpk: That leaves us still looking for more implementations and more feedback.
17:31:30 [tantek]
q+ to ask how many implementations of the ED again?
17:32:33 [bengo]
eprodrom: Can other group members help?
17:32:46 [bengo]
aaronpk: Take a look at the alternate version.
17:32:46 [ben_thatmustbeme]
ben_thatmustbeme has joined #social
17:33:04 [bengo]
sandro: Should we link from current ED to alternative and ask for feedback?
17:33:07 [bengo]
aaronpk: idk
17:33:15 [tantek]
s/idk/I don't know
17:33:53 [bengo]
aaronpk: The bulk of the Content changes in this alternative version. Most obvious in 'Update' section
17:33:56 [aaronpk]
17:34:46 [bengo]
aaronpk: Something else that came from feedback. I was leaning toward everything except create requiring JSON format. But the implementor said it wasn't too hard to also support formencoded, since the key/value structure is so similar
17:35:01 [tantek]
17:35:20 [bengo]
eprodrom: What would next steps be?
17:35:29 [bengo]
aaronpk: I'm not sure. Easiest thing for me is make no changes.
17:36:16 [bengo]
eprodrom: Open an issue on GitHub to invite discussion? I don't want you to get stuck on this without a clear transition. If you're willing to make a decision, group will respect that.
17:36:17 [KevinMarks]
do other existing implementations support both formencoded and json, or just formencoded?
17:36:30 [KevinMarks]
document support?
17:36:37 [bengo]
aaronpk: There's an existing issue for it
17:36:51 [bengo]
eprodrom: Let's give it a week for participants to look it over
17:37:00 [bengo]
aaronpk: works for me. After call, I'll update the issue to document this
17:37:14 [tantek]
17:37:16 [bengo]
17:37:26 [eprodrom]
ack tantek
17:37:26 [Zakim]
tantek, you wanted to ask how many implementations of the ED again?
17:37:46 [bengo]
tantek: Is this the second implementation of micropub ED? or WD?
17:38:16 [bengo]
aaronpk: There are several implementations of creating posts linked from spec. In many languages. For updating/deleting, there are now two. This was second, and it was based on Mar 1 WD.
17:38:27 [bengo]
tantek: Was the first implementation your own server?
17:38:29 [bengo]
aaronpk: Yes
17:38:46 [bengo]
tantek: So this is first external feedback. Can we see if the two versions interoperate.
17:39:17 [bengo]
aaronpk: I want to do a validator for micropub, but it's on TODO list for now. Could test interop be using against each other. I'll add that to my list. Using this new implementation to edit posts on my site and in theory they should interoperate
17:39:48 [eprodrom]
TOPIC: PDX F2F logistics
17:40:19 [bengo]
aaronpk: Meeting is in a couple months. ESRI was going to host event but doesn't make sense anymore
17:40:25 [deiu]
deiu has joined #social
17:40:29 [sandro]
!! aaronpk leaving ESRI
17:40:35 [bengo]
aaronpk: I found a local company that can host. Close to old location so shouldn't require hotel changes
17:41:06 [bengo]
aaronpk: They can provide coffee, snacks, meeting room. However, they don't have room for catered lunch. So I was planning on lunch reservations and nearby restaurants
17:41:16 [bengo]
aaronpk: I would appreciate if someone could help sponsor the lunches.
17:41:21 [Arnaud]
let everyone pay their own lunch
17:41:44 [Arnaud]
we did that in Paris
17:41:48 [annbass]
no need for you to pay, aaronpk
17:41:49 [bengo]
aaronpk: If that's the best option, I'll make sure I can find a place that can split check. Sound ok?
17:41:49 [cwebber2]
sounds good
17:42:25 [bengo]
tantek: Is this close to food trucks? Good option for separate paying.
17:42:39 [bengo]
aaronpk: Yeah there are many food carts within five blocks
17:43:16 [bengo]
aaronpk: Only downside is fragmented lunch discussion time, but we could bring food back to F2F.
17:43:36 [bengo]
+1 to outside
17:43:37 [annbass]
I agree with Tantek.... get food, bring it back to same place ..
17:43:38 [sandro]
aaronpk, can you update with the new location....?
17:43:49 [aaronpk]
sandro, will do. didn't want to do it before the call for obvious reasons ;)
17:44:03 [eprodrom]
Thumbs up for getting out
17:44:15 [tantek]
+1 to food carts both days
17:44:17 [bengo]
aaronpk: Should we do food carts bothd ays and no reservation?
17:44:17 [bengo]
IMO yes
17:44:19 [cwebber2]
food carts!
17:44:25 [tantek]
and be outside both days
17:44:26 [annbass]
sounds great .. pending weather
17:44:27 [bengo]
decentralized food choices
17:44:35 [annbass]
(likely will be fine weather)
17:44:36 [bengo]
aaronpk: I'll update the wiki page
17:44:57 [bengo]
tantek: What about inviting local developers? Does new location make this more possible?
17:45:18 [bengo]
aaronpk: There isn't enough room to have more people. We'd have to hang out at the parks.
17:45:59 [bengo]
aaronpk: could be challenging. Lunch downtown is popular.
17:46:08 [bengo]
tantek: Do you think it would appear to local developers?
17:46:15 [tantek]
17:46:27 [bengo]
aaronpk: I'm not sure many would take us up on it. So I'm happy to not bother with the offer.
17:46:29 [tantek]
up to you aaronpk - trust your judgment
17:46:40 [bengo]
eprodrom: We could do happy hour or dinner out with devs.
17:46:44 [tantek]
+1 eprodrom
17:46:47 [bengo]
aaronpk: That would be easier
17:46:50 [tantek]
maybe after the first day?
17:46:55 [eprodrom]
social happy hour
17:46:55 [aaronpk]
+1 to happy hour
17:46:58 [ben_thatmust]
ben_thatmust has joined #social
17:47:16 [bengo]
eprodrom: Let's talk webmention
17:47:38 [bengo]
aaronpk: I've had good feedback from 21 tests for endpoint discovery.
17:47:47 [bengo]
aaronpk: 1 test for update portion of webmention spec.
17:48:07 [bengo]
aaronpk: Results have been promising. Most people passed endpoint discovery test, there are 2 or 3 that are tricky because of Link tag/header edge cases.
17:48:36 [bengo]
aaronpk: Out of all 21, 17 different people were able to successfully reply to at least one. Of those, almost all use different implementations. ~13 distinct implementations.
17:48:39 [tantek]
between 13 and 15?!? (!!!) wow
17:48:46 [eprodrom]
Great news on that
17:48:51 [bengo]
aaronpk: For update test, it was only released Saturday. Looks like ~4 implementations passed though.
17:49:17 [bengo]
aaronpk: I'm going to work more on update and counting results.
17:49:32 [tantek]
what about delete tests?
17:49:46 [bengo]
eprodrom: Next steps?
17:49:59 [bengo]
aaronpk: Write more tests to cover rest of spec. More formally gather results and report on them.
17:50:15 [eprodrom]
17:50:37 [bengo]
aaronpk: Still have some issues
17:50:57 [bengo]
aaronpk: One issue, waiting on IANA rel registry updates
17:51:07 [tantek]
sandro, do we have an issue category for "Waiting on external org?" :P ;)
17:51:30 [bengo]
aaronpk: I resolved many issues. Though some are 'waiting for commenter' since original commenter/reporter hasn't acked
17:51:47 [bengo]
aaronpk: My question is "What is left before this can be CR"?
17:52:25 [bengo]
eprodrom: As we did with AS2, we have to assess exit criteria for Webmention. And have a vote when we take to CR.
17:52:46 [bengo]
aaronpk: Do exit criteria have to be in before CR or during/after?
17:52:46 [bengo]
sandro: before
17:53:03 [tantek]
is there any value in publishing current ED as is as a WD?
17:53:03 [bengo]
aaronpk: So I'll work on that this week and maybe propose CR next week
17:53:10 [tantek]
with all the issues resolved?
17:53:23 [aaronpk]
oh yes thanks tantek
17:53:32 [tantek]
(just as I asked for AS2)
17:53:54 [bengo]
aaronpk: I would like to propose publishing a new WD based on current ED
17:53:56 [aaronpk]
17:54:46 [bengo]
tantek: Looking at the changes, it looks like they're significant enough to publish WD ASAP, given e.g. CSRF improvements
17:55:18 [eprodrom]
PROPOSED: Publish new working draft of Webmention based on 15 April 2016 editor's draft
17:55:19 [eprodrom]
PROPOSED: Publish new working draft of Webmention based on 15 April 2016 editor's draft
17:55:27 [aaronpk]
17:55:27 [tantek]
17:55:30 [bengo]
17:55:32 [eprodrom]
17:55:35 [cwebber2]
17:55:39 [KevinMarks]
17:55:40 [annbass]
17:55:58 [sandro]
17:56:02 [annbass]
great job, aaronpk!
17:56:17 [eprodrom]
RESOLVED: Publish new working draft of Webmention based on 15 April 2016 editor's draft
17:57:16 [bengo]
aaronpk: I'll create a github issue for exit criteria on Webmention
17:57:24 [annbass]
thanks for scribing, bengo .. good job! ditto on chairing, Evan
17:57:25 [eprodrom]
that's all, folks
17:57:33 [bengo]
Do I need to do anything to end scribing?
17:57:40 [annbass]
17:57:49 [annbass]
um .. trackbot, end meeting
17:57:54 [annbass]
trackbot, end meeting
17:57:54 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
17:57:54 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been sandro, Arnaud, annbass, eprodrom, bengo, aaronpk, KevinMarks, cwebber, 1, tantek
17:58:02 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:58:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
17:58:03 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
17:58:03 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items