17:58:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #shapes
17:58:09 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/03/24-shapes-irc
17:58:11 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs rdf-data-shapes
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17:58:13 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SHAPES
17:58:13 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
17:58:14 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Data Shapes Working Group Teleconference
17:58:14 <trackbot> Date: 24 March 2016
17:58:27 <pfps> pfps has joined #shapes
17:58:43 <pfps> present+
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18:02:31 <Arnaud> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2016.03.24
18:02:49 <Arnaud> chair: Arnaud
<Arnaud> regrets: labra, ericP
18:03:31 <hknublau> present+
18:04:19 <kcoyle> kcoyle has joined #shapes
18:04:38 <Arnaud> regrets: labra, ericP, hsolbrig
18:04:54 <Arnaud> present+
18:05:38 <jamsden> jamsden has joined #shapes
18:06:34 <TallTed> present+
18:06:41 <TallTed> scribenick: TallTed
<TallTed> topic: Admin
18:07:44 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Approve minutes of the 17 March 2016 Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2016/03/17-shapes-minutes.html
18:08:04 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: Approve minutes of the 17 March 2016 Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2016/03/17-shapes-minutes.html
18:09:20 <TallTed> TOPIC: F2F?
18:09:23 <pfps> q+
18:09:46 <Arnaud> ack pfps
18:10:36 <TallTed> pfps: I don't think face- nor meeting-time is the bottleneck at the moment
18:11:08 <TallTed> ... gaps in the design/spec need to be filled
18:12:11 <hknublau> q+
18:12:18 <TallTed> ... which needs external inputs and/or increased attention from some quarters
18:12:23 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
18:15:31 <TallTed> hknublau: what are the dramatic holes at the moment?
18:16:03 <TallTed> pfps: prebinding and hasShapes
18:17:09 <TallTed> Arnaud: there's been recent email traffic on prebinding
18:17:43 <TallTed> hknublau: hasShape has not been updated because we're still working on recursion, which resolution has significant impact there
18:19:42 <simonstey> simonstey has joined #shapes
18:20:57 <TallTed> q+
18:21:34 <Arnaud> ack TallTed
18:25:11 <TallTed> present+ simonstey
18:25:47 <TallTed> [ back-and-forth about F2F impact/utility ]
18:27:41 <TallTed> hknublau: what is current timeline?
18:28:29 <TallTed> Arnaud: we are chartered until June 2017, so there should be plenty of time, even though we have not kept up with original forecast schedule
18:30:50 <pfps> q+
18:30:54 <Arnaud> ack pfps
18:32:19 <simonstey> q+
18:32:41 <Arnaud> ack simonstey
18:33:24 <TallTed> pfps: another implementation, especially one that includes the extension mechanism, would help a lot in boosting confidence
18:34:32 <pfps> q+
18:35:23 <pfps> q-
18:35:24 <TallTed> simonstey: I'm doing a fair amount of work with hknublau's draft API.  do we need to re-implement that to be counted as multiple implmentations?
18:35:51 <Dimitris> I am planning to implement the spec
18:37:12 <TallTed> TallTed: I do expect that OpenLink will implement SHACL including extension mechanism.  timing is indeterminate, but we do try to do such within CR->PR window.
<TallTed> topic: Disposal of Raised Issues
18:37:58 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Open ISSUE-138 Property constraints as lists, ISSUE-139 Universal applicability, ISSUE-140 Individual validation, ISSUE-141 Mixed ranges
18:38:10 <hknublau> +1
18:38:14 <TallTed> +1
18:38:16 <Dimitris> +1
18:38:16 <kcoyle> +1
18:38:37 <simonstey> +1
18:38:37 <pfps> I think that it would be very much better if OpenLink did an implementation before CR.  This gives the  WG much needed confidence that the design is workable.
18:38:39 <pfps> +1
18:38:56 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: Open ISSUE-138 Property constraints as lists, ISSUE-139 Universal applicability, ISSUE-140 Individual validation, ISSUE-141 Mixed ranges
18:39:05 <pfps> It would also be very helpful  if OpenLink can contribute to the design of hasShape and pre-binding.
18:40:05 <Arnaud> topic: ISSUE-128: rdfs:range
18:40:09 <TallTed> ISSUE-128?
18:40:09 <trackbot> ISSUE-128 -- sh:defaultValueType is rdfs:range -- open
18:40:09 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/128
18:40:15 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-128, without action.
18:40:46 <TallTed> hknublau's email -- https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-data-shapes-wg/2016Mar/0252.html
18:42:26 <TallTed> pfps: as far as I can tell, defaultRange is trying to mirror part of RDFS, so we don't have to put class links on some shapes, in order to support a particular version of the metamodel
18:42:36 <simonstey> q+
18:42:48 <Arnaud> ack simonstey
18:43:13 <TallTed> s/defaultRange/defaultValueType/
18:45:01 <pfps> q+
18:45:11 <Arnaud> ack pfps
18:46:25 <TallTed> pfps: this seems to be a special purpose crutch to enable metamodel validation, and of no use elsewhere
18:47:16 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-128, without action.
18:47:20 <pfps> -1
18:47:25 <hknublau> +1
18:47:36 <simonstey> -0.5
18:47:38 <kcoyle> -.5
18:47:40 <Dimitris> 0
18:47:45 <jamsden> 0
18:47:49 <TallTed> +0.5
18:47:59 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-128, dropping sh:defaultValueType
18:48:07 <hknublau> -1
18:48:10 <TallTed> q+
18:48:14 <pfps> +1
18:48:19 <kcoyle> 0
18:48:20 <Dimitris> 0
18:48:22 <simonstey> .5
18:48:26 <Arnaud> ack TallTed
18:49:42 <kcoyle> +q
18:50:03 <Arnaud> ack kcoyle
18:50:04 <simonstey> q+
18:50:46 <TallTed> kcoyle: I believe we've decided definitively that SHACL includes no inferencing.  that makes me wonder how using rdfs:range could help us here.
18:51:23 <TallTed> hknublau: this is about pre-validation inferencing on the shapes graph
18:53:19 <Arnaud> ack simonstey
18:53:25 <TallTed> hknublau: the difference is that rdfs:range effectively always adds a type triple, while sh:defaultValueType only applies if there is no other type triple
18:53:43 <simonstey> sh:property [ a sh:PropertyConstraint; sh:predicate ex:property; sh:minCount 1 ] vs. sh:property [sh:predicate ex:property; sh:minCount 1 ]
18:54:28 <Dimitris> q+
18:55:27 <TallTed> simonstey: this seems to be just a bit of shorthand sugar, allowing some explicit statements to be left out
18:55:59 <Arnaud> ack Dimitris
18:56:41 <TallTed> Dimitris: I think we need to finalize the metamodel before we'll know whether this is useful or not
18:56:46 <TallTed> q+
18:57:34 <TallTed> Arnaud: do we break anything if we drop sh:defaultValueType?
18:57:37 <TallTed> hknublau: no
18:57:37 <Arnaud> ack TallTed
18:58:37 <TallTed> TallTed: what about marking it Feature At Risk?
18:58:39 <pfps> q+
18:58:44 <Arnaud> ack pfps
19:01:29 <TallTed> after this discussion, I revise my votes above to +1, -1
19:01:43 <TallTed> s/after this/TallTed: after this/
19:02:03 <kcoyle> q+
19:02:26 <Arnaud> ack kcoyle
19:03:10 <TallTed> kcoyle: I wonder if we're not talking so much about the standard, as implementation variance
19:04:20 <TallTed> Arnaud: anyone else adjusting votes?
19:04:26 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-128, without action.
19:05:49 <TallTed> topic: Syntax and metamodel Complexity and Possible simplifications
19:06:17 <hknublau> q+
19:06:24 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
19:06:38 <TallTed> background  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-data-shapes-wg/2016Mar/0255.html
19:08:14 <hknublau> q+
19:09:21 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
19:09:52 <pfps> q+
19:10:38 <Arnaud> ack pfps
19:11:27 <Dimitris> q+
19:12:17 <Arnaud> ack Dimitris
19:13:19 <TallTed> Dimitris: we have two considerations -- metamodel simplification, and syntax simplification.  making one simpler tends to make the other more complex.  do we simplify life for "engine user" or for "engine writer"?
19:13:38 <pfps> q+
19:14:27 <Arnaud> ack pfps
19:16:31 <TallTed> pfps: the current design with mixed up PropertyConstraints and property paths is broken.  there is some patch in consideration, but it's not clear whether that resolves the whole break.
19:19:23 <TallTed> topic: ISSUE-41: property paths
19:19:23 <TallTed> Arnaud: in the course of this, Property Paths were raised again, and appear to be more broadly acceptable and implementable
19:19:28 <Dimitris> q+
19:19:46 <Arnaud> ack Dimitris
19:20:06 <simonstey> q+
19:20:26 <pfps> I don't see that closing this the  other way is a possibility today.
19:20:33 <Arnaud> ack simonstey
19:20:41 <TallTed> Dimitris: ShEx people are likely to have objections here, so if we reopen, shouldn't reclose without them
19:21:26 <hknublau> q+
19:21:32 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
19:22:21 <simonstey> if the extension mechanism will be dropped, we need those paths
19:22:40 <TallTed> hknublau: I wonder whether we now have solutions to a problem that doesn't really exist or isn't that important
19:23:00 <TallTed> ... would probably want this to be in extension mechanism, not core
19:23:20 <hknublau> Yes, we could postpone it.
19:24:05 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Reopen ISSUE-41, based on Peter's email https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-data-shapes-wg/2016Mar/0290.html
19:24:24 <simonstey> +1
19:24:34 <pfps> +0.5 as I find them very useful in my implementation
19:24:41 <TallTed> +1
19:25:04 <kcoyle> 0
19:25:06 <hknublau> -0
19:25:17 <Dimitris> +0
19:25:44 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: Reopen ISSUE-41, based on Peter's email https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-data-shapes-wg/2016Mar/0290.html
19:26:12 <TallTed> topic: ISSUE-130: rdf dataset assumption
19:26:16 <TallTed> ISSUE-130?
19:26:16 <trackbot> ISSUE-130 -- SHACL should not assume that the data graph is in an RDF dataset -- open
19:26:16 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/130
19:26:28 <Dimitris> q+
19:26:37 <Arnaud> ack Dimitris
19:27:17 <pfps> q+ to say that the current draft does not depend on datasets
19:27:36 <Arnaud> ack pfps
19:27:36 <Zakim> pfps, you wanted to say that the current draft does not depend on datasets
19:29:30 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-130, as is - the latest draft doesn't require/assume a dataset
19:29:41 <pfps> +1
19:29:45 <TallTed> +1
19:29:47 <Dimitris> +1
19:29:49 <kcoyle> +1
19:29:54 <jamsden> +1
19:29:55 <simonstey> +1
19:29:59 <hknublau> 0
19:30:11 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-130, as is - the latest draft doesn't require/assume a dataset
19:30:53 <TallTed> adjourned!
19:30:58 <Arnaud> trackbot, end meeting
19:30:58 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
19:30:58 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been pfps, hknublau, Arnaud, TallTed, simonstey, kcoyle, Dimitris, jamsden
19:31:06 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
19:31:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/24-shapes-minutes.html trackbot
19:31:07 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
19:31:07 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
19:31:10 <Dimitris> Dimitris has left #shapes