11:50:45 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #poe
11:50:45 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/03/24-poe-irc
11:50:49 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #poe
11:51:02 <phila> RRSAgent, make logs public
11:51:12 <phila> meeting: P&OE Weekly
11:51:15 <phila> chair: Ben
11:51:40 <phila> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20160324
11:54:11 <jo> jo has joined #poe
11:55:26 <simonstey> what's our webex meeting id?
11:56:27 <simonstey> m383ae385ad7b77d69e2820e1cf does not work ;)
11:57:01 <benws> benws has joined #poe
11:57:31 <benws> present+ benws
11:58:07 <carolineb> carolineb has joined #poe
11:58:32 <serena_villata> serena_villata has joined #poe
11:58:53 <phila> phila has changed the topic to: Password for WebEx is poe URL is https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m3166d150f5844b3298350cb0b92680b9
11:59:28 <phila> present+ phila
11:59:42 <phila> URL for WebEx is https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m3166d150f5844b3298350cb0b92680b9
11:59:53 <magyarblip> magyarblip has joined #poe
11:59:53 <phila> See topic line for password
12:00:03 <msteidl> msteidl has joined #poe
12:00:19 <simonstey> for me it says Enter the meeting number to join. NEW! Invited to a Personal Room? Enter the host's room ID.
12:00:27 <simonstey> it worked last week though
12:00:30 <carolineb> carolineb has joined #poe
12:00:34 <phila> 640 402 848 simonstey
12:00:40 <phila> phila has changed the topic to: Password for WebEx is poe URL is https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m3166d150f5844b3298350cb0b92680b9 ID no. is 640 402 848
12:00:53 <renato> renato has joined #poe
12:01:15 <msteidl> present+msteidl
12:01:47 <james> present+ james
12:02:04 <sabrina> sabrina has joined #poe
12:02:57 <jo> present+ jo, caroline
12:03:01 <renato> present+ renato
12:03:02 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
12:03:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/24-poe-minutes.html phila
12:03:31 <phila> RRSAgent, make logs public
12:03:45 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
12:03:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/24-poe-minutes.html phila
12:05:07 <phila> PROPOSED: Accept last week's minutes https://www.w3.org/2016/03/17-poe-minutes
12:05:14 <jo> scribe: jo
12:05:44 <serena_villata> present+ serena_villata
12:05:48 <jo> phila: scribing is important as it is the record of our meeting, if you want to say something that is not for the the minutes then
12:05:51 <phila> Write /me to write a line not in minutes
12:05:57 <paulj> paulj has joined #poe
12:05:59 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
12:05:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/24-poe-minutes.html phila
12:06:14 <magyarblip> present+ magyarblip
12:06:20 <simonstey> present+ simonstey
12:06:22 <jo> … /me does not appear in the minutes (whereas if you do not what you type does appear in the minutes)
12:06:24 <paulj> present+ paulj
12:06:34 <carolineb> present+carolineb
12:06:34 <sabrina> present+ sabrina kirrane
12:06:43 <jo> … please type present+ with your name to indicate your presence
12:06:47 <phila> PROPOSED: Accept last week's minutes https://www.w3.org/2016/03/17-poe-minutes
12:06:56 <phila> +1
12:07:11 <james> +1
12:07:12 <jo> … indicate your support for a proposal by adding +1 in IRC
12:07:16 <msteidl> +1
12:07:17 <serena_villata> +1
12:07:20 <paulj> +1
12:07:21 <carolineb> +1
12:07:23 <sabrina> +1
12:07:25 <magyarblip> +1
12:07:27 <benws> +1
12:07:32 <simonstey> +1
12:07:33 <renato> +1
12:07:39 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
12:07:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/24-poe-minutes.html phila
12:07:53 <jo> … demonstrate regenerating the minutes
12:08:11 <jo> … and you will see that the resultion has been taken
12:08:34 <jo> RESOLUTION: Accept last week's minutes https://www.w3.org/2016/03/17-poe-minutes
12:08:36 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
12:08:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/24-poe-minutes.html phila
12:09:41 <jo> phila: obviously that was not a very important resolution, it becomes more important that we have an audit trail of what the group has decided
12:09:55 <jo> benws: main purpose of the meeting is to make a call for use cases
12:10:12 <jo> … we are looking to automate rights management, the more use cases the better the standard
12:10:22 <jo> … three reasons for use cases
12:10:34 <jo> … 1. to test ODRL (gap analysis)
12:10:47 <jo> … 2. for exemplification in the standard
12:11:13 <jo> … 3. worked examples of more business realistic use cases
12:11:37 <jo> … how does the stanrds fit with my business problem
12:11:47 <jo> … so how can we manage the use cases
12:11:55 <jo> … 1. maintain on wiki
12:12:16 <jo> … 2. we need to publish a note on those use cases
12:12:30 <jo> … 3. we can put them in the requirements
12:12:58 <jo> …. 4. possibly put them in a primer so people can understand, not within charter but worth discussing
12:13:06 <phila> q+
12:13:08 <jo> … so, how do we want to do this?
12:13:21 <phila> ack me
12:13:22 <jo> ack p
12:13:47 <jo> phila: want to ask … there is a set of use cases for ODRL, where are they?
12:14:03 <renato> q+
12:14:04 <msteidl> https://www.w3.org/community/odrl/xml/2.1/
12:14:20 <msteidl> https://www.w3.org/community/odrl/json/2.1/
12:14:22 <jo> msteidl: in the encoding sections
12:14:38 <benws> Q?
12:14:53 <jo> q?
12:14:59 <simonstey> https://www.w3.org/2012/09/odrl/archive/odrl.net/Profiles/RDFa/UseCase/index.html don't know how up to date those are
12:15:07 <phila> -> https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp-ucr/ DWBP UCR
12:15:07 <jo> phila: here are a couple of examples
12:15:17 <jo> … want to talk process
12:15:19 <phila> -> https://www.w3.org/TR/csvw-ucr/ CSV on the web UCR
12:15:41 <jo> … the usual way this is done is for people to write use cases on the wiki then a copuple of
12:15:56 <jo> … people offer to write a document, that is the usual way
12:16:00 <jo> … however …
12:16:17 <jo> … because of the implrementation experience, we don’t necessarily have to do that
12:16:27 <jo> … it doesn’t say that we will write a primeer
12:17:04 <jo> … if you choose, we don’t want to write a use case document, we want to write a primer with use cases in it
12:17:10 <jo> … you can choose to do that
12:17:16 <jo> q?
12:17:18 <jo> ack r
12:17:34 <renato> https://www.w3.org/community/odrl/model/2.1/
12:17:54 <jo> renato: 11 original use cases are in  ???
12:18:31 <jo> … they are in the encoding spec, the normative use cases in the model spec in UML
12:19:02 <jo> benws: though they are useful for explaining how the standard can be applied they don’t match any of the business use cases
12:19:20 <jo> renato: yes they illustrate scenarios, how encodings can be expressed
12:19:32 <jo> … we didn’t have any business feeding use cases at the time
12:19:40 <jo> benws: so we want busienss driven use caes
12:19:50 <james> q+
12:19:52 <jo> … people to contribute, then we can do the gap analysis
12:20:05 <jo> … and decide whether we want to publish a note
12:20:26 <jo> … if there are signficant requirements, otherwsie maybe a primer
12:20:29 <phila> ack j
12:20:47 <jo> james: I’d like to see both busienss and technical use cases fleshed out
12:20:52 <phila> -> https://www.w3.org/2013/dwbp/wiki/Use_Cases An example of UCs collected in a wiki
12:21:05 <jo> s/busienss/business/
12:21:24 <jo> benws: shall we do this in the wiki
12:21:51 <jo> phila: example from another group, useful to have a template, we will need a different template
12:22:15 <jo> … narrative, statement problems, things to address … for example
12:22:21 <jo> … need someone to drive it
12:22:26 <jo> … an owner
12:22:41 <jo> … for clarification etc.
12:22:53 <jo> … usually the editor, or two editors
12:23:02 <jo> … that is a long way of asking for volunteers
12:23:18 <jo> benws: james would you like to offer a template for your use cases
12:23:25 <jo> … then we can ask for editors
12:23:33 <jo> james: yes, from a technical side
12:23:42 <jo> msteidl: I can help too
12:24:03 <jo> benws: michael can you be use case editor?
12:24:15 <jo> msteidl: “I do”
12:24:29 <smyles> smyles has joined #poe
12:24:41 <smyles> present+ smyles
12:24:49 <jo> benws: james please can you contribute use cases by next meeting
12:24:54 <benws>  q?
12:24:57 <jo> … more volunteers pls?
12:25:05 <jo> s/use cases/templates/
12:25:27 <jo> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: MSteidl to take on initial editorship of use cases
12:25:43 <phila> +1
12:25:44 <carolineb> +1
12:25:50 <serena_villata> +1
12:25:57 <magyarblip> +1
12:25:58 <james> +1
12:25:59 <benws> +1
12:25:59 <simonstey> +1
12:26:00 <paulj> +1
12:26:05 <sabrina> +1
12:26:32 <jo> RESOLUTION: MSteidl to take on initial editorship of use cases
12:26:47 <renato> q+
12:27:08 <renato> Social Web WG template
12:27:10 <renato> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialig/Use_Case_TF
12:27:11 <jo> phila: to clarify, Micael you are going to create the page on wiki
12:27:13 <magyarblip> q+ where is the wiki?
12:27:36 <msteidl> yes, I will create a Use Case landing page
12:27:42 <phila> The wiki is the WG home - https://www.w3.org/2016/poe, magyarblip
12:27:52 <jo> s/Micael/Michael/
12:27:58 <jo> q?
12:28:03 <jo> ack r
12:28:06 <benws> +q
12:28:13 <jo> ack b
12:28:29 <phila> q+
12:28:31 <magyarblip> duh, sorry was looking on the wiki for the wiki (too early)
12:28:32 <jo> benws: any further questions around use cases?
12:28:41 <jo> ack p
12:28:42 <renato> q+
12:29:30 <jo> phila: I am intrigued (and interested) the original use cases are not yours, Ben, plus renato says they are not business use cases
12:29:41 <jo> … what did you have in mind
12:30:00 <jo> benws: we have quite complicated needs, e.g. time restrictions
12:30:22 <jo> … plus a big use use case is comparing supplier policies against product policies
12:30:34 <jo> … that kind of automation we are looking for
12:30:37 <magyarblip> q+
12:30:37 <jo> q?
12:30:45 <jo> ack r
12:30:50 <ivan> present+ Ivan
12:30:51 <jo> renato: a bit of history
12:31:14 <jo> … when we were developing oRDL, there were a lot a use cases that are not documented in specs
12:31:33 <jo> … eg. proposal to MPEG21 involved use cases for them
12:31:48 <jo> … so lots of use cases but not all of them documented in the spec
12:32:09 <jo> … another question, we can use the ODRL community gp to ask for use cases
12:32:23 <jo> … asuuming that CG does not have write access to wiki
12:32:31 <jo> … so they would need to email them to someone
12:32:43 <simonstey> q+
12:32:49 <jo> benws: they could write to an equivalent use case page there
12:33:06 <phila> -> https://www.w3.org/community/odrl/wiki/Main_Page The ODRL CG wiki
12:33:12 <jo> reanto: keep them in one spot? have a template that wortks we can solicit submissions
12:33:26 <renato> https://www.w3.org/community/odrl/wiki/Publishing_Embedded_and_Royalty_Free_(RF)_Assets
12:33:57 <jo> ACTION: Renato to ask the community group to contribute use cases
12:33:57 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
12:34:19 <jo> (discussion about use of Github vs Tracker)
12:34:32 <magyarblip> +1 github
12:34:39 <jo> +1 tracker
12:34:43 <simonstey> +1 tracker
12:34:44 <carolineb> +1 github
12:35:03 <benws> +1 github
12:35:15 <jo> phila: (we will know which way we are going “shortly”)
12:35:27 <serena_villata> +1 tracker
12:35:34 <jo> (more discussion about githib vs tracker)
12:36:19 <james> q+
12:36:59 <phila> q?
12:37:29 <jo> renato: posted a URL up above of a use case that the CG was working on
12:37:47 <jo> … narrative about requirement and how it could be supported
12:37:57 <jo> … plus gaps highlighted
12:38:23 <jo> … need to highlight where gaps could be in current IDRL functionality
12:38:25 <jo> q?
12:38:37 <phila> ack m
12:39:20 <jo> magyarblip: ref business use cases, my issues are not about ODRL the language, but I
12:39:49 <jo> … would like to see that the use cases consider not just in an access control system, but how they move around and how they
12:40:24 <jo> … connect up, resources and agents rather than policy. I will try to express this as part of my use cases. Can share what I have
12:40:35 <jo> … written in WIley in th past, they will guide.
12:40:47 <jo> benws: yes, please share
12:41:02 <jo> … and put on wiki for now
12:41:04 <jo> q?
12:41:09 <jo> ack s
12:41:42 <simonstey> https://www.w3.org/community/odrl/wiki/ODRL_Linked_Data_Profile
12:41:44 <jo> simonstey: do we care about distinguishing user stories “lightweight” version of use case
12:42:09 <jo> … e.g. linked data profile for ODRL, and hence user stories around that
12:42:31 <jo> … so my question is do we care about stories or do we want to go directly to use cases
12:43:03 <jo> benws: what we really want is use cases, but perhaps at the early stage user stories will help us map the territory
12:43:07 <jo> q+
12:43:21 <phila> ack ja
12:43:52 <jo> james: going back to github, we are open sourcing apis with ODRL underneath, and our stuff will be on github
12:44:12 <jo> … but we would like to refer back to ODRL, so we could link back on GitHub
12:44:31 <jo> … would be useful to have in GitHub space
12:44:38 <phila> -> https://github.com/w3c/poe The WG's Github Repo
12:44:55 <jo> benws: agree ref developers but also githib is scary to business ppl
12:44:57 <phila> ack jo
12:45:31 <carolineb> jo: too early to take a view re use cases user stories need to collect material
12:45:44 <carolineb> jop: Up to Michael and editor can then take a view
12:46:07 <jo> msteidl: agree collect first then we can select
12:46:27 <msteidl> Use Case page created at https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Use_Cases - in fact empty at the moment, more will follow
12:46:46 <jo> msteidl: there we have use case page!
12:47:11 <jo> Topic: AOB
12:47:33 <jo> benws: how do we stop this!
12:47:50 <jo> phila: er, there are some technicalities
12:48:05 <jo> … which either I or Ivan will usually do
12:48:06 <renato> +1 tracker
12:48:44 <jo> … noting that we are evenly split on Gitbub vs Tracker
12:48:51 <ivan> q+
12:49:08 <jo> … tracker has several advantages which include integration with IRC
12:49:13 <renato> ODRL CG uses Tracker
12:49:14 <renato> https://www.w3.org/community/odrl/track/
12:49:14 <jo> …. I just one one only
12:49:23 <jo> q?
12:49:35 <renato> q+
12:49:39 <jo> benws: can we fix now?
12:49:49 <jo> phila: let’s try to fix it now
12:50:08 <jo> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: The group will us tracker for actions
12:50:21 <jo> ivan: eventually we will us github anyway
12:50:37 <jo> … using github issues therefore becomes mroe natural
12:50:52 <jo> … and all links with pull requests and so on (yada yada)
12:51:13 <jo> … my fear is that we will have to use github in any case
12:51:25 <jo> … we could use trackbot for actions
12:51:28 <simonstey> q+
12:51:40 <jo> … you can’t use github for that
12:51:48 <phila> q+
12:51:54 <phila> ack i
12:52:12 <jo> … CSS WG we had duplcites and it was confusing
12:52:20 <jo> … so we should use one
12:52:37 <jo> benws: can the distinction be made between issues and actions
12:52:49 <jo> ivan: yes, we can use trackbot for actions
12:53:24 <jo> … very often threads end up being assigned to someone
12:53:27 <phila> s/CSS/CSVW/
12:53:40 <phila> q-
12:53:42 <jo> … so eventually the boundaries become blurred
12:53:52 <jo> renato: CG has used trackbot
12:54:15 <jo> … perhaps we can start using trackbot
12:54:26 <phila> ack s
12:54:33 <phila> ack r
12:55:16 <jo> simonstey: two aspects: genenral (no specufic location in doc) and specific relating to a place in the doc
12:55:50 <phila> q+ to propose we start with Trackbot and then consider using GH later
12:56:00 <jo> … can we split between those
12:56:11 <jo> ivan: don’t think this distinction is strong enough
12:56:15 <jo> q?
12:56:21 <phila> q-
12:56:38 <jo> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: The group will us tracker for actions
12:56:52 <ivan> s/us/use/
12:57:29 <magyarblip> fwiw i don't yet understand the ramifications
12:57:59 <jo> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: The group will use Tracker for Issues and Actions pending substantive documents on Github, when it will revisit the question
12:58:15 <jo> +1
12:58:17 <ivan> 0
12:58:18 <renato> +1
12:58:19 <paulj> +1
12:58:23 <smyles> 0
12:58:27 <msteidl> +1
12:58:28 <simonstey> +1
12:58:28 <magyarblip> 0
12:58:34 <sabrina> 0
12:58:38 <serena_villata> 0
12:58:43 <james> 0
12:58:44 <carolineb> 0
12:59:00 <phila> phila: Our definition of consensus: General agreement with no strong objections
12:59:09 <jo> RESOLUTION: The group will use Tracker for Issues and Actions pending substantive documents on Github, when it will revisit the question
13:00:17 <jo> (phila talks about “the nature of consensus”)
13:00:39 <jo> ACTION: phila to set up trackbot
13:00:39 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
13:01:03 <jo> benws: meeting closed
13:01:26 <phila> Topic: Regular Meeting time
13:01:28 <jo> phila: next meeting at the new regular time (mea culpa re this being a nuisance)
13:01:29 <phila> -> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/converted.html?iso=20160404T12&p1=0&p2=47&p3=43&p4=195&p5=236
13:01:44 <jo> … monday 4th April noon gmt
13:01:54 <paulj> paulj has left #poe
13:01:56 <jo> benws: adjourned
13:01:56 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:01:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/24-poe-minutes.html phila
13:13:32 <jo> i/main purpose of the meeting/Topic: Use Cases
13:13:41 <jo> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:13:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/24-poe-minutes.html jo
13:16:09 <phila> issue-1?
13:16:10 <trackbot> Sorry, but issue-1 does not exist.
13:18:52 <phila> zakim, this is https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m4a8e3a5032905e8ce9ef1f4b569fcc2e Or by phone +1-617-324-0000, access code: 648 497 127
13:18:52 <Zakim> got it, phila
13:18:59 <phila> zakim, remember these details
13:18:59 <Zakim> I don't understand 'remember these details', phila
13:19:12 <phila> zakim, remember this meeting
13:19:12 <Zakim> I don't understand 'remember this meeting', phila
13:19:16 <phila> zakim, help
13:19:16 <Zakim> Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot for more detailed help.
13:19:18 <Zakim> Some of the commands I know are:
13:19:18 <Zakim>  xxx is yyy       - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx
13:19:18 <Zakim>                     if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted
13:19:19 <Zakim>  xxx may be yyy   - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx
13:19:19 <Zakim>  I am xxx         - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx
13:19:19 <Zakim>  xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group
13:19:19 <Zakim>  xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx
13:19:19 <Zakim>  who's here?      - lists the participants on the phone
13:19:19 <Zakim>  who's muted?     - lists the participants who are muted
13:19:20 <Zakim>  mute xxx         - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#)
13:19:20 <Zakim>  unmute xxx       - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61#
13:19:20 <Zakim>  is xxx here?     - reports whether a party named like xxx is present
13:19:21 <Zakim>  list conferences - reports the active conferences
13:19:21 <Zakim>  this is xxx      - associates this channel with conference xxx
13:19:21 <Zakim>  excuse us        - disconnects from the irc channel
13:19:21 <Zakim> I last learned something new on $Date: 2015/08/27 01:09:18 $
13:19:49 <phila> zakim, save this conference description
13:19:49 <Zakim> this conference description has been saved, phila
13:19:55 <phila> zakim, code?
13:19:55 <Zakim> I have been told this is https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m4a8e3a5032905e8ce9ef1f4b569fcc2e Or by phone +1-617-324-0000, access code: 648 497 127
13:20:18 <phila> Trackbot all set up...
13:20:18 <trackbot> Sorry, phila, I don't understand 'Trackbot all set up...'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
13:20:56 <phila> phila has changed the topic to: Password for WebEx is poe URL is https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m4a8e3a5032905e8ce9ef1f4b569fcc2e Or by phone +1-617-324-0000, access code: 648 497 127
13:22:12 <phila> zakim, bye
13:22:12 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been benws, phila, msteidl, james, jo, caroline, renato, serena_villata, magyarblip, simonstey, paulj, carolineb, sabrina, kirrane,
13:22:12 <Zakim> Zakim has left #poe
13:22:15 <Zakim> ... smyles, Ivan
13:22:22 <phila> RRSAgent, bye
13:22:22 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2016/03/24-poe-actions.rdf :
13:22:22 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Renato to ask the community group to contribute use cases [1]
13:22:22 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/03/24-poe-irc#T12-33-57
13:22:22 <RRSAgent> ACTION: phila to set up trackbot [2]
13:22:22 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/03/24-poe-irc#T13-00-39