16:50:08 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dpub-arch
16:50:08 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/03/24-dpub-arch-irc
16:50:31 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #dpub-arch
16:52:48 <TimCole> Meeting: DPub Archival Task Force
16:53:47 <TimCole> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2016Mar/0086.html
16:54:05 <TimCole> Topic: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2016Mar/0086.html
16:54:31 <TimCole> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2016Mar/0086.html
16:55:12 <TimCole> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2016Mar/0086.html
16:56:04 <TimCole> rrsagent, make log public
16:57:00 <TimCole> rrsagent, Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2016Mar/0086.html
16:57:00 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2016Mar/0086.html', TimCole.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:00:03 <lrosenth> lrosenth has joined #dpub-arch
17:00:27 <lrosenth> I’ll be on WebEx in a sec - wrapping up another meeting
17:02:31 <lrosenth> I thought pwd was dpubarch?
17:02:39 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #dpub-arch
17:02:57 <lrosenth> ah, just darch
17:03:03 <Bill_Kasdorf> Tim, Nicholas, and I are on the call and Webex but not hearing anybody else
17:03:12 <Bill_Kasdorf> Present+ Bill_Kasdorf
17:03:24 <lrosenth> present+ Leonard
17:05:28 <TimCole> Present+ Tim_Cole
17:05:39 <TimCole> Present+ Ayla_Stein
17:06:21 <Bill_Kasdorf> I meant Craig, Nicholas and now Leonard and I are on the call
17:08:07 <TimCole> scribenick: TimCole
17:08:35 <TimCole> Topic: Minutes Approval
17:08:51 <TimCole> TimCole: Any concerns about minutes
17:09:04 <TimCole> ... hearing none they are approved.
17:09:15 <TimCole> Topic: CLOCKSS AND LOCKSS
17:10:23 <TimCole> Bill_Kasdorf: Do we need to introduce Craig and Nicholas an introduction
17:10:53 <TimCole> Craig: we've read the documents, but would appreciate a brief intro
17:11:27 <TimCole> Bill_Kasdorf: First the DPub is a W3C Interest Group
17:12:02 <TimCole> ... IGs do not publish recommendations but they inform the W3C about issues and coordinate with Working Groups that make Recommendations
17:12:44 <TimCole> ... In the context of that work an initiative was done to draft a vision of a Web-based format that is independent of whether a document was online or offline
17:13:01 <TimCole> ... This led to the Portable Web Publication document
17:13:24 <TimCole> ... when online all the components of a PWP document are available online
17:13:38 <TimCole> ... but whether online or offline to the user it's the same document.
17:13:57 <TimCole> ... in the course of this dicussion the issue of forming archival came up
17:14:25 <TimCole> ... we want to make sure that PWP is useful and can be archived.
17:15:02 <TimCole> Craig: I am the exec dir of CLOCKSS after 37 years in publishing.
17:15:16 <TimCole> Nichoals: Web archiving service manager at Stanford
17:15:42 <TimCole> ... mostly work on Web archiving genreally, but have been working a lot on LOCKSS
17:16:01 <TimCole> Craig: CLOCKSS is a free-standing org made up of publisher and libraries
17:16:17 <TimCole> ... pubs are billed both annually and by the article or book archived.
17:16:33 <TimCole> ... CLOCKSS builds on the LOCKSS protocol
17:17:02 <TimCole> ... CLOCKSS adds controlled -- LOCKSS typically has more copies...
17:17:41 <TimCole> ... libraries have a traditional role of archives, but in digital world they are not the holders of the digital copies
17:18:11 <TimCole> ... so libraries wanted trusted 3rd parties to whom publishers could provide content
17:18:50 <TimCole> ... 3rd parties (like CLOCKSS) is a dark archive for safekeeping in case the resources become unavailable on the web (e.g., publisher goes out of business)
17:19:21 <TimCole> ... CLOCKSS for example has 20,000+ journals, so if a journal goes away, CLOCKSS can provide archival access
17:19:43 <TimCole> ... scholars highly dependent on the literature, so access to lit is crucial
17:20:01 <TimCole> ... CLOCKSS helps ensure that access
17:20:28 <TimCole> ... CLOCKSS harvests or crawls - publisher agrees that LOCKSS can harvest
17:20:50 <TimCole> ... harvested content is then put in the 12 nodes that CLOCKSS has spread out across the globe
17:21:13 <TimCole> ... 2nd method is to accept files from the publisher (or retrieved from the publisher)
17:21:48 <TimCole> ... Regardless of whether delivered by publisher or crawled, the norm is to simply archive the files, not to normalize
17:22:18 <TimCole> ... we do however, a quality assurance on the materials ingested.
17:22:41 <TimCole> ... LOCKSS allows nodes to confirm that all nodes have the same content
17:22:58 <TimCole> ... a voting system can be used among the nodes to validate data correct
17:23:25 <TimCole> ... this checking that all copies match is constantly ongoing and repaired as needed
17:24:45 <TimCole> Bill_Kasdorf: question about nature of the content in CLOCKSS
17:25:03 <TimCole> ... when you sign on a publisher is it all content of that publisher?
17:25:14 <TimCole> ... is it mostly scientific literature
17:25:30 <TimCole> Craig: broader than just science
17:25:42 <TimCole> ... anything scholars access from publishers
17:26:02 <TimCole> ... in theory all journal and book publications, but in practice books may not be added right away
17:26:23 <TimCole> ... databases, other content types  not always in scope
17:26:52 <TimCole> Nicholas: drilling down on how CLOCKSS acquires content by harvest
17:27:04 <TimCole> ... one challenge is that publishers use different platforms
17:27:23 <TimCole> ... we have to account for differences in how content and related files are served
17:27:37 <TimCole> ... we create 'plugins' for each publisher
17:28:02 <TimCole> ... one thing that might be useful about PWP would be more consistent presentation across publisher platform
17:28:12 <TimCole> ... this might make easier to acquire content
17:28:48 <TimCole> ... but one concern would be that PWD might be a parallel - which is canonical version? Do they stay in sync
17:29:17 <TimCole> lrosenth: Our thinking right now - we recognize that for any given publication there is a canonical version
17:30:06 <TimCole> ... our strategy is that there will be a locator associated with any 'copy' that refers back to canonical copy and/or breadcrumbs through versions that you have to follow
17:30:36 <TimCole> ... so for example if annotations are added you may have a new version and so a new locater, but you can still go back to the original
17:30:59 <TimCole> ... There is no requirement that a PWP is served as package
17:31:40 <TimCole> ... for example a publication talking about the Mona Lisa, and so the most correct version of the pub references the Mona Lisa at the Louvre
17:32:21 <TimCole> Nicholas: the manifest sounds like the Signposting being discussed in the Web Archiving Community more general
17:32:24 <TimCole> q+
17:32:42 <TimCole> lrosenth: yes, sounds relevant
17:32:46 <TimCole> ack TimCole
17:34:44 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
17:35:15 <TimCole> lrosenth: the manifest documents everything, every part that is necessary to 'present' / 'consume' the publication
17:35:25 <TimCole> ... this would include what a machine might need
17:35:53 <TimCole> ... if you utilize the manifest, and processes the manifest to have the set of elements needed for the publication
17:36:11 <TimCole> ack BI
17:36:15 <TimCole> ack Bill
17:36:27 <TimCole> q?
17:37:16 <TimCole> Bill_Kasdorf: If there are elements that the publisher wants to 'protect' , the publisher can count on CLOCKSS not to release any of this until a trigger event occurs
17:37:37 <TimCole> Craig: Yes
17:38:12 <TimCole> Bill_Kasdorf: So there is another level of abstraction, potentially
17:38:28 <TimCole> Bill_Kasdorf: a font might be an example
17:38:46 <TimCole> ... some of these fonts may require licenses
17:38:59 <TimCole> ... so the PWP may name a fallback
17:39:29 <TimCole> lrosenth: Yes, that seems right. Important to look at.
17:39:42 <TimCole> ... may define which PWP's are truly archival
17:40:12 <TimCole> Nicholas: Seems like spec has a lot of potential
17:40:31 <TimCole> ... as it stands now we have this 2 pronged archival approach
17:40:48 <TimCole> ... PWP may bring these together a little more
17:41:20 <TimCole> ... the manifest idea or signposting or some level of semantic annotation that projects the publisher's perspective of the publication would be very useful
17:41:38 <lrosenth> q+
17:41:42 <TimCole> ... right now we have a set of heuristics that we need to keep revisiting
17:42:06 <TimCole> ... a little difficult to know what it might look like in practice
17:42:08 <TimCole> ack lr
17:42:34 <TimCole> lrosenth: as i understand LOCKSS, you make no requirements on the content
17:42:50 <TimCole> ... so if a trigger even occurs, you release what you have
17:43:35 <TimCole> Craig: not making any kind of legal warrant
17:43:47 <TimCole> ... but our expectation is to deliver content in a consumable way
17:44:00 <TimCole> ... we're not focused on user experience, but rather on content
17:44:20 <TimCole> lrosenth: Bill was talking about fonts
17:44:41 <TimCole> ... in case you have a document that references a font, but the font is not archived
17:44:58 <TimCole> ... you don't overtly address font issue?
17:45:31 <TimCole> Nicholas: Once the content is archived, we try to make sure that all the required content is archived
17:45:40 <TimCole> ... not sure if we are going after fonts
17:45:42 <TimCole> q+
17:46:06 <TimCole> lrosenth: has a lot of implications for what we are trying to do
17:46:45 <TimCole> Bill_Kasdorf: as an XML guy, ideally content is Unicode, so you should be able to consume the content, albeit without the proper glyph
17:47:12 <TimCole> lrosenth: But since they don't normalize, they don't ensure unicode is being made
17:47:17 <TimCole> ack ti
17:48:29 <TimCole> timCole: manifest may make it easier to make sure you get everything you need?
17:49:34 <TimCole> Nicholas: yes it can be difficult to know for each platform exactly which links should be collected (e.g., fonts vs. publisher home page)
17:50:13 <TimCole> Nicholas: is this related to packaging on the Web (W3C)
17:50:46 <TimCole> lrosenth: that initiative is broader and separate, but as we start talking about what our packages look like, we will look at that work
17:53:53 <TimCole> Bill_Kasdorf: would Nicholas have more time to join DPub IG? Since Stanford already a member of W3C
17:54:46 <TimCole> Nicholas: have already joined...
17:57:26 <TimCole> rrsagent, make log public
17:57:45 <TimCole> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:57:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/24-dpub-arch-minutes.html TimCole
17:58:12 <TimCole> rrsagent, make log public
18:08:42 <TimCole> bye, zakim
18:09:03 <TimCole> zakim, bye
18:09:03 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Bill_Kasdorf, Leonard, Tim_Cole, Ayla_Stein
18:09:03 <Zakim> Zakim has left #dpub-arch
18:09:12 <TimCole> rrsagent, bye
18:09:12 <RRSAgent> I see no action items