IRC log of social on 2016-03-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:07:04 [RRSAgent]
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14:07:04 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:07:06 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:07:06 [Zakim]
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14:07:08 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be SOCL
14:07:08 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
14:07:09 [trackbot]
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
14:07:09 [trackbot]
Date: 16 March 2016
14:07:18 [tantek]
trackbot, this meeting spans midnight
14:07:18 [trackbot]
Sorry, tantek, I don't understand 'trackbot, this meeting spans midnight'. Please refer to <> for help.
14:07:27 [tantek]
scribe: ben_thatmustbeme
14:07:36 [aaronpk]
good morning!
14:07:43 [ben_thatmustbeme]
scribenick: ben_thatmustbeme
14:07:52 [tantek]
14:07:55 [ben_thatmustbeme]
scribe: Ben Roberts
14:08:04 [tantek]
14:08:07 [ben_thatmustbeme]
14:08:09 [aaronpk]
14:08:57 [tsyesika]
14:09:08 [dmitriz]
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14:09:14 [dmitriz]
14:10:08 [cwebber2]
14:11:44 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: lets do introductions
14:12:52 [ben_thatmustbeme]
ben_thatmustbeme (I won't scribe intros)
14:13:54 [wilkie]
14:13:56 [Karli]
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14:14:18 [AnnBass]
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14:14:27 [Karli]
present +
14:14:28 [AnnBass]
14:14:38 [sandro]
14:14:47 [sandro]
14:15:20 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: the first thing we're going to be doing is editing the agenda
14:15:47 [rhiaro]
14:16:38 [Karli]
14:16:42 [Karli]
14:18:21 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: we have demos and soem admin items to schedule
14:19:59 [aaronpk]
scribenick: aaronpk
14:20:30 [shevski]
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14:21:20 [shevski]
14:21:25 [shevski]
i can't find you guyes
14:21:41 [wilkie]
the room?
14:21:50 [shevski]
yep, the room for the f2f
14:21:59 [wilkie]
stata center, 4th floor common
14:22:16 [shevski]
i did a fair amount of wandering around the 4th floor..
14:22:18 [ben_thatmust]
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14:22:28 [rhiaro]
14:22:33 [rhiaro]
14:22:38 [shevski]
okay, on the 5th floor now. will come and have another look
14:23:14 [aaronpk]
sandro: i took an action item to propose a list of labels for organizing issues, i have that to present now
14:23:23 [ben_thatmust_]
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14:23:23 [aaronpk]
sandro: probably before we go through issues lists
14:25:32 [eprodrom]
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14:25:40 [ben_thatmust]
scribenick: ben_thatmust
14:26:00 [shevski]
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14:26:05 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: the next goals after that will be to taking drafts to CR
14:26:40 [ben_thatmust]
s/taking/looking at what is needed next for taking/
14:26:59 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: lets move work on publish updated working drafts to tomorrow
14:27:29 [ben_thatmust]
eprodrom: lets move demo of validator to before taking AS2 to CR discussion
14:28:17 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: this fully schedules what we had for goals and items to schedule thus far.
14:28:36 [ben_thatmust]
... do we have any other items we'd like to add?
14:29:07 [ben_thatmust]
shevski: what about reviewing implementations?
14:30:13 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: (schedules it) NOW i think we are done
14:30:18 [ben_thatmust]
... anything else?
14:31:34 [ben_thatmust]
AnnBass: do we have anyone on talky?
14:31:41 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: no, not yet
14:31:41 [eprodrom]
Arnaud: are you joining by Talky?
14:31:45 [shevski]
14:31:50 [eprodrom]
14:31:59 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: the next telcon is the 29th, no telcon next week
14:32:08 [eprodrom]
14:32:09 [ben_thatmust]
... mostly because most of us are busy here next week
14:32:10 [Loqi]
ben_thatmust has 8 karma
14:32:31 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: the next F2F is already scheduled for portland
14:33:28 [ben_thatmust]
... the weekend before the meeting is the IndieWebCamp summit too
14:33:43 [ben_thatmust]
... right now we have 5 RSVPs to the next F2F
14:33:49 [tantek]
14:33:54 [ben_thatmust]
... please add yourself one way or another if you can go or not
14:34:08 [ben_thatmust]
... that will help aaronpk with venue planning etc
14:34:37 [eprodrom]
14:34:40 [ben_thatmust]
... the next F2F after that is in september in Lisbon Portugal as part of TPAC
14:35:22 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: by a quick show of hands how many can make it to that?
14:35:38 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: that was about 50% so it should be enough of a critical mass
14:35:44 [ben_thatmust]
... we need to submit for space
14:35:58 [ben_thatmust]
... i proposed thursday - friday that week
14:36:25 [ben_thatmust]
... if anyone else has any WG they are a part of, you might want to check with other groups to see that there is no conflict
14:36:50 [ben_thatmust]
... hearing no objections lets go with Thursday/Friday
14:37:05 [ben_thatmust]
sandro: what about annotations?
14:37:20 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: do we want to conflict or specificially not conflict
14:37:29 [Loqi]
I added a countdown for 3/16 11:45am (#5814)
14:37:44 [Loqi]
Loqi has 394 karma
14:37:52 [tantek]
chair: tantek
14:38:01 [ben_thatmust]
Resolved: reserve Thursday/Friday for meeting at TPAC in Lisbon
14:38:25 [ben_thatmust]
eprodrom: if we are to have another meeting after that it would be close to the end of the year, do we want to schedule that?
14:38:40 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: last time we discussed we suggested SF, i'd be happy to host
14:38:56 [ben_thatmust]
eprodrom: would there be any benefit to being here?
14:39:05 [ben_thatmust]
sandro: not really other than travel rotation
14:39:25 [ben_thatmust]
AnnBass: it would be more fair since the summer one is on the west coast
14:39:48 [ben_thatmust]
tsyesika: its easier for us to get here
14:40:02 [Loqi]
Abasset made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]]
14:40:03 [Loqi]
Abasset made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-06-07]]
14:40:04 [Loqi]
Wilkie made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-06-07]]
14:40:06 [ben_thatmust]
eprodrom: i'm not sure there is any benefit to meeting that close to the end of our charter
14:40:28 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: hopefully its to celebrate our completions
14:40:45 [ben_thatmust]
sandro: probably no decisions to make at that point
14:41:14 [ben_thatmust]
aaronpk: if we have to decide that before december, is it better to have it earlier?
14:41:27 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: now is the time to start planning date ranges certainly
14:41:42 [ben_thatmust]
... normally the TPAC is in early november, so its a little strange this year
14:42:08 [ben_thatmust]
eprodrom: could we sketch in a proposed F2F @MIT for early november 2016?
14:42:23 [ben_thatmust]
wilkie: we can always revisit this in june
14:42:36 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: this would give people plenty of time react
14:43:05 [ben_thatmust]
sandro: the week of Nov 14th doesn't conflict with anything (elections, holidays, etc)
14:43:26 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: lets just say early Nov so people have time to react to that
14:43:38 [ben_thatmust]
AnnBass: are we officially saying it here at MIT?
14:44:14 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: there is a proposal for that, I'm still happy to host in san fransisco too
14:44:41 [ben_thatmust]
sandro: november is far enough out we can ACTUALLY get our choice of rooms
14:45:28 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: we'll follow up on future F2F discussions with that schedule
14:45:40 [ben_thatmust]
... any other input on F2F or all other admin items?
14:46:06 [ben_thatmust]
TOPIC: activity streams conformance discussions
14:46:10 [tantek]
14:46:38 [ben_thatmust]
eprodrom: just for context, one of the decisions we made was to add a conformance section to AS2 before getting to CR
14:46:50 [eprodrom]
14:47:02 [ben_thatmust]
... specificially chose to mimic the html conformacne section
14:47:18 [ben_thatmust]
... this task has been on my todo list for some time, so i'm glad this is done
14:48:10 [ben_thatmust]
... can we step through this? its not as long as HTML5 conformance section as it had a lot of previous versions and its not as significant here for some of those sections
14:48:27 [ben_thatmust]
... non-interactive presentation for example is too detailed for AS2
14:48:59 [ben_thatmust]
... followed structure of html prolog
14:49:17 [ben_thatmust]
... the RFC 2119 is duplicated here, we can probably remove it here or at the beginning
14:49:37 [ben_thatmust]
... in terms of the conformance classes, its a description of the various roles
14:50:02 [Loqi]
Abasset made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]]
14:50:21 [ben_thatmust]
... at times we say implementers must vs documents must, so we call that out here
14:50:43 [ben_thatmust]
... some specific MUST and SHOULDS are called out here
14:50:53 [ben_thatmust]
... if anyone wants to queue up, please do so
14:51:17 [ben_thatmust]
... prefer this vocab over other vocabularies
14:51:32 [ben_thatmust]
... there are JSON-LD features that should not be used
14:51:51 [ben_thatmust]
... those are detailed throughout the doc
14:52:03 [ben_thatmust]
sandro: why are these all SHOULDs not MUSTs?
14:52:14 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: maybe we should make these MUSTs
14:52:25 [ben_thatmust]
eprodrom: the specific sections are SHOULDs
14:52:52 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: we should update the SHOULDS to MUSTS as this conformance section seems to say it optional
14:53:05 [ben_thatmust]
sandro: it seems rather odd to just repeat all of these from the document
14:53:29 [ben_thatmust]
eprodrom: i was trying to bring up key points for conformance
14:54:07 [jasnell]
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14:54:14 [tantek]
specifically, we could updated this: "Conforming publishers should make conforming documents available according to the serialization requirements of section 2." to "Conforming publishers must make conforming documents available according to the serialization requirements of section 2."
14:54:18 [annbass_]
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14:54:48 [ben_thatmust]
eprodrom: there are ways within JSON-LD to specify multiple languages for example and an AS2 version of that and we are saying to not use those things specifically disallowed by the spec
14:54:55 [jasnell_]
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14:55:24 [ben_thatmust]
eprodrom: let me ask a higher level question, i think the intention was to say "what is a good AS2 document?" and i wanted to collect that all in to one section
14:55:38 [ben_thatmust]
... is that a worthwhile goal for this section?
14:55:52 [ben_thatmust]
... is that the wrong kind of effort to put in to this conformance section
14:56:29 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: i think from a spec writing side, its better to prefer a MUST instead of a SHOULD
14:56:57 [ben_thatmust]
eprodrom: using 1.0 syntax for some of the properties is a MAY (from memory)
14:57:54 [ben_thatmust]
sandro: if you are as2 with some compatibility for as1 processors, are you "conformant"
14:58:04 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: is there a transition section in the spec?
14:58:06 [ben_thatmust]
eprodrom: yes
14:58:22 [ben_thatmust]
... the idea is there are 2 media types
14:58:34 [ben_thatmust]
sandro: sounds like as2 media MUST NOT have as1 content
14:58:54 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: if you can't come up with a specific reason for a SHOULD, it must be a MUST
15:00:04 [the_frey]
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15:00:51 [ben_thatmust]
rhiaro: if alternatives exist AS2 terms must be present, but you can have non as2 if there is no equivalent or as long as the equivalent is there
15:01:05 [ben_thatmust]
(some discussion about exact phrasing)
15:02:37 [eprodrom]
15:03:06 [ben_thatmust]
(i cannot scribe live editing sanely)
15:04:13 [eprodrom]
15:05:13 [ben_thatmust]
(edits to make last section more clearly)
15:05:25 [ben_thatmust]
sandro: have other editors been thinking about conformance clauses
15:05:59 [ben_thatmust]
aaronpk: webmention and micropub have short conformance clauses but nothing this complex
15:06:08 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: can acitivypub use that
15:06:12 [aaronpk]
micropub conformance section:
15:06:29 [ben_thatmust]
sandro: its much more complex for document formats
15:06:47 [tantek]
consider s/Conforming publishers should make conforming documents/Conforming publishers must make conforming documents
15:06:59 [ben_thatmust]
eprodrom: done editing, it now says use the equivalents but also uses parallels
15:08:42 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: i had one more suggestion, in the publishers section
15:08:51 [ben_thatmust]
sandro: we haven't gotten there
15:09:46 [ben_thatmust]
eprodrom: there may be some other examples of documents we can add
15:10:02 [Loqi]
Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]]
15:10:15 [ben_thatmust]
... i give a description of implementations as that word is used a lot
15:10:58 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: we can remove "human processors"
15:11:08 [tantek]
* human processes
15:11:30 [ben_thatmust]
15:11:52 [ben_thatmust]
sandro: maybe specify they two types of implementations are publishers and consumers
15:12:27 [jaywink]
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15:13:21 [ben_thatmust]
sandro: i think we can say MUST consider, its not really any way to test or enforce that
15:13:31 [ben_thatmust]
... at least make it stronger
15:13:52 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: human impact of the word MUST at least
15:14:57 [ben_thatmust]
eprodrom: since most of the publishing requirements are in the spec there is not much need for a large section here other than to say they have to create a document that conforms
15:15:14 [ben_thatmust]
... the final section is on consumers
15:16:03 [ben_thatmust]
... there are things that are MUSTs for them such as continuing to process if they hit things they don't understand
15:17:29 [ben_thatmust]
sandro: have you had feedback from jasnell_ on this?
15:17:33 [ben_thatmust]
eprodrom: no
15:17:44 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: has anyone heard from james?
15:18:02 [jasnell_]
I'm here. somewhat ;-)
15:18:11 [ben_thatmust]
eprodrom: lets make sure we get his sign off.
15:18:12 [jasnell_]
haven't been able to follow along with the conversation for a bit
15:18:26 [eprodrom]
Oh hey!
15:18:50 [eprodrom]
jasnell_: we've just discussed waiting for your review on
15:19:12 [sandro]
15:19:21 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: do you think there is enough experience with how feed-readers treat other formats, to provide a base of how readers MUST treat AS2?
15:19:40 [ben_thatmust]
eprodrom: thats true we do have some experience from nearby domains we could borrow from
15:20:01 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: we could at least say "if you are building a feed reader here is your list of MUSTs"
15:20:16 [ben_thatmust]
... it would be a specific subsection for feed readers
15:20:35 [ben_thatmust]
Karli: do we mean an RSS reader here or more like a social client
15:20:54 [jasnell_]
the conformance page looks ok, pretty light in terms of actual conformance rules but that's to be expected
15:21:02 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: its better to start more like an RSS reader, and we can expand later
15:21:23 [ben_thatmust]
... i'm not sure we have the experience to do that for social networks yet
15:22:04 [jasnell_]
for producers, something should be said about conforming to the rules of each property. For instance, "updated" and "published" must be iso8601 date-time
15:22:05 [ben_thatmust]
eprodrom: it would take me a while to do examples for all of these classes
15:22:17 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: i'm talking about only for 1 specifically, not for any others
15:22:26 [jasnell_]
"name" and "nameMap" must not contain markup, and consumers must not treat it as markup
15:22:52 [jasnell_]
"summary"/"content"/"summaryMap"/"contentMap", however, are HTML and consumers should treat them as such, etc
15:22:57 [ben_thatmust]
eprodrom: its a very good example to use too
15:23:10 [ben_thatmust]
... i'm happy to do that, maybe even for tomorrow
15:23:45 [ben_thatmust]
Action eprodrom to add a section on feed readers to AS2 conformance section
15:23:46 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-86 - Add a section on feed readers to as2 conformance section [on Evan Prodromou - due 2016-03-23].
15:24:23 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: i agree with jasnell_'s comments
15:24:28 [eprodrom]
15:24:50 [jasnell_]
there are other examples, I'll see if I can come up with a more exhaustive list
15:24:53 [tantek]
and adding that consumers MUST treat them as such
15:25:08 [ben_thatmust]
eprodrom: if you should through this document for capital MUST and Capital SHOULD, we have 30 must 31 should, 18 for may
15:25:31 [ben_thatmust]
... would recaping those be good for this section?
15:25:41 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: no, those requirements should be hardened
15:25:44 [jasnell_]
but they include things like: on as:Link objects, the "id" property must not be considered to be the actual URL to the object, the "href" property must be used for that. The "id" and "href" can have the same value, but they serve different purposes
15:25:57 [eprodrom]
jasnell_: I count about 30-40 each of MUST, SHOULD, MAY in the text
15:26:07 [eprodrom]
Is the conformance section a good place to recapitulate them?
15:26:19 [jasnell_]
not everything is captured as MUST/MAY
15:26:23 [eprodrom]
Or should be refer to them by reference ("serialization as in sectino 2")
15:26:28 [eprodrom]
15:26:58 [eprodrom]
jasnell_, such as for example, range of properties on different classes
15:26:58 [jasnell_]
I'll take some time later on today and tomorrow to write up as many of these types of rules as I can
15:27:13 [eprodrom]
jasnell_: feel free to edit the wiki page
15:27:24 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: if those are specific properties, edit the spec
15:27:32 [ben_thatmust]
... those requirements should go with the properties
15:27:47 [jasnell_]
btw, my apologies for being awol the past couple of months, the Node community stuff has been keeping me quite occupied
15:27:55 [ben_thatmust]
... later in the spec you can say "consumers MUST" and we know what a consumer is
15:28:32 [eprodrom]
jasnell_: no problem, just glad to get it here
15:28:47 [eprodrom]
jasnell_: let's powwow one-on-one for further editorial points
15:28:52 [jasnell_]
15:29:09 [jasnell_]
if you would, send me a calendar invite for a time that works best for you
15:29:09 [ben_thatmust]
eprodrom: are there other things you would expect here or that are confusing?
15:29:57 [ben_thatmust]
sandro: i think this is good, the sort of lawyer perspective is what is someone going to get away with because of something we missed here? I think this is the right track but we can't guess what all those loopholes are in the future.
15:30:17 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: this is also going to feed into the test suite, any must can be captured in a test
15:30:54 [ben_thatmust]
eprodrom: is there a decision point we can make like "include a conformance section" i think we've already approved that, can we add this now as a first draft
15:31:11 [ben_thatmust]
sandro: i think we can do that and hope anyone spots any fixes before we publish again
15:31:48 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: i think this is good to go in now and i'd like to see it published sooner than later but we can talk about that in publishing schedule later
15:32:09 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: shall we take a break?
15:32:21 [ben_thatmust]
rhiaro: lunch is here, half an hour early
15:32:36 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: lets do issue labels section then break for lunch
15:33:08 [ben_thatmust]
TOPIC: Issue Labels
15:33:43 [ben_thatmust]
sandro: issues labels on github is an over-contraint problem, you'd like it to be overly clear but issues have to serve several different reasons
15:34:10 [ben_thatmust]
... sometimes they are used for w3c process, sometimes for editors, sometimes for chairs
15:34:18 [sandro]
15:34:24 [ben_thatmust]
... i tried to put that all togeter in to a repo of mine
15:35:10 [ben_thatmust]
... commentor stuff is probably w3c process
15:35:33 [ben_thatmust]
... mostly these are on closed issues
15:35:52 [ben_thatmust]
... the Waiting ones are the ones the chairs would look at
15:36:01 [ben_thatmust]
... these are things that would show up on the agenda
15:36:48 [ben_thatmust]
the greyed out ones are ones can sort of ignore
15:36:57 [eprodrom]
15:37:30 [ben_thatmust]
eprodrom: i have two questions on this, we have a large number of repos on this
15:37:40 [ben_thatmust]
sandro: i have a script that can put all of these on a repo
15:37:56 [ben_thatmust]
eprodrom: this is for a spec repo, what about software / test suite
15:38:06 [ben_thatmust]
sandro: i assumed a spec
15:38:21 [ben_thatmust]
eprodrom: is there any reason not to start doing this immediately?
15:38:26 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: i'd like to see fewer
15:38:56 [ben_thatmust]
dmitriz: "editorial" vs "editorial: spec is ambiguous" is there a difference there?
15:39:34 [ben_thatmust]
sandro: editorial is not important change, spec is ambiguous is a little more dangerous
15:39:55 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: that sounds not editorial
15:40:48 [ben_thatmust]
Karli: with owncloud we start with fewer and add them as we need them, its also not clear here who sets these labels
15:41:02 [ben_thatmust]
sandro: agreed though i'm not sure we have a good answer to that
15:41:10 [ben_thatmust]
... someone with github permissions
15:41:24 [ben_thatmust]
eprodrom: my understanding is that some of these are anticipating questions of CR
15:42:08 [ben_thatmust]
sandro: for example we have 176 closed comments on AS2, we would want to have them all organized
15:42:27 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: i'm pretty sure thats for last calls etc, so we don't have to go through all old comments
15:42:42 [ben_thatmust]
sandro: i don't think thats true
15:43:40 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: in other groups after we went to CR we added them to "disposition of comments" but not before we went to CR
15:44:04 [ben_thatmust]
... it was "have you actually responded to all comments after the last call for comments"
15:44:21 [ben_thatmust]
sandro: okay, maybe we don't have to do that, We SHOULD do that..
15:44:29 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: i don't think we should, its a waste of our time
15:45:15 [ben_thatmust]
dmitriz: in the interest of reducing number of tags, 'waiting for' could be grouped
15:45:54 [shevski]
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15:46:11 [ben_thatmust]
aaronpk: as an editor i like to mark things specifically for the group
15:46:53 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: i think we should limit it to those that help the W3C Process, and add it as needed
15:48:39 [ben_thatmust]
sandro: for example james at last f2f, he had to organize them for us
15:48:48 [ben_thatmust]
... this would give us that organization
15:49:11 [ben_thatmust]
cwebber2: it would help us get some idea of priority setting
15:50:27 [eprodrom]
15:50:55 [tantek]
15:51:00 [tantek]
ack eprodrom
15:51:09 [cwebber2] :)
15:51:30 [ben_thatmust]
eprodrom: i don't think we are going to come up with an agreed upon list before lunch and i want to eat
15:52:00 [ben_thatmust]
sandro: other idea is to add these to the repos and remove any unused ones after a month
15:52:04 [annbass_]
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15:52:15 [ben_thatmust]
shevski: we could vote like on the voice
15:52:34 [annbass_]
15:52:35 [ben_thatmust]
shevski: i think that list is too long, i'd be interested to know which are the most important
15:52:56 [ben_thatmust]
... I wouldn't know what are the most important ones
15:53:19 [ben_thatmust]
eprodrom: can i suggest moving this to a wiki page and edit it down there?
15:54:27 [annbass_]
15:54:59 [ben_thatmust]
aaronpk: i would need a description of what each of these are and what they are all needed for
15:55:34 [ben_thatmust]
aaronpk: maybe we just start with a list of these as the official list and if i need to add it, i look up the list and add it as needed to github
15:55:59 [ben_thatmust]
sandro: i can give you the CURL to add those with those colors
15:56:08 [ben_thatmust]
aaronpk: that does not sound like a lot of work for me
15:57:55 [eprodrom]
15:57:58 [eprodrom]
15:58:08 [ben_thatmust]
aaronpk: without these labels the editor has a lot more work
15:58:17 [tantek]
15:58:17 [ben_thatmust]
... these labels would help other people to work on the spec
15:58:20 [tantek]
ack eprodrom
15:58:34 [ben_thatmust]
eprodrom: when do we move our repos under the w3c space on github?
15:58:42 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: its not a requirement
16:00:11 [ben_thatmust]
sandro: i'll add something of a description of them all to the wiki with their colors
16:00:36 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: i'm happy to add what i think is important of these
16:01:57 [ben_thatmust]
AnnBass: i printed out and ran through editorial changes for the 3 specs on the reading list
16:02:03 [ben_thatmust]
i'll give those to editors
16:02:29 [ben_thatmust]
Action sandro to add labels to the wiki with short description of each
16:02:29 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-87 - Add labels to the wiki with short description of each [on Sandro Hawke - due 2016-03-23].
16:02:46 [annbass_]
Jasnell: I have a paper print of AS, with a few "English" edits ... Would it work for me to give it to Arnaud next week, to give to you?
16:03:12 [annbass_]
(Paper is easier for me to edit in this manner, than online ... For making suggestions to you)
16:03:50 [wilkie]
reconvene at 1pm
16:03:51 [ben_thatmust]
tantek: we are on lunch until 1pm to do as2 validator and taking as2 to CR both of which are led by evan so i'll chair and then we can swap off for the rest of the day
16:03:51 [Loqi]
I added a countdown for 3/16 1:00pm (#5815)
16:04:50 [jasnell_]
hey, sorry, got pulled away for a bit
16:05:33 [jasnell_]
annbass_ : I'm not likely to see arnaud soon, but if you'd like to scan and email me a copy I'll make the edits
16:05:33 [tantek]
RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
16:05:49 [annbass_]
Seems like a lottaa
16:06:34 [annbass_]
Whoops ... A lotta pages to scan ... Maybe give me your snail mail address in private, and I'll do that?
16:06:59 [annbass_]
(23 pages)
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Tantekelik made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]]
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Sandro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]]
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16:59:27 [aaronpk]
Arnaud: can you hear now?
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16:59:53 [Arnaud]
17:00:12 [Arnaud]
in the meantime I tried another computer and had the same results so I'm pretty sure the problem isn't on my side
17:00:46 [aaronpk]
just refreshed. now?
17:01:51 [Arnaud]
yes, it works!
17:01:52 [Arnaud]
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17:09:42 [Arnaud]
hi :)
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17:12:22 [tantek]
eprodrom is getting setup to demo the AS2 validator
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17:12:30 [tantek]
we need a scribe for the afternoon
17:13:34 [tantek]
thanks cwebber2 for scribing
17:13:37 [tantek]
scribe: cwebber2
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17:15:02 [ben_thatmustbeme]
scribenick: cwebber2
17:15:26 [Arnaud]
thanks aaronpk!
17:15:36 [Arnaud]
the sound is actually pretty good
17:15:40 [aaronpk]
17:15:58 [tantek]
Topic: Demo: Activity Streams 2.0 Validator (Evan Prodromou)
17:16:00 [aaronpk]
you can hear evan okay? he's on the opposite side of the room as the mic
17:16:07 [Arnaud]
very well
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17:16:14 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: well I'll get started then. The point of this demonstration from a pull-back, one of the things we have to do as we bring AS2 to recommendation is have a test suite. But one question is what that means for a document format specification. We've taken it to mean two parts
17:16:57 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: 1 a set of document formats that we expect consumers to consumes, that's in the activitystreams-test-documents, composed of examples from AS Core and Vocabulary specifications, as well as jasnell's javascript stuff for AS2
17:17:07 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: it's about 100 documents, maybe 200
17:17:15 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: a number of different documents
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17:17:38 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: our expectation is those writing consumer implementations should be able to consume this, and if their thing explodes they know they have a problem
17:17:50 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: so it's a fairly low impact test suite for consumers
17:17:55 [cwebber2]
sandro: it's 200
17:18:17 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: 200 docs, thanks. on public side we need to validate ? so we decided to build a validator
17:19:00 [cwebber2]
... so this is a way to test your documents. the as2 validator is written in node.js, canonical verison at, if there's a reason to run another version we can do that too, software is under w3c software license
17:19:16 [eprodrom]
17:19:19 [cwebber2]
sandro: it's not linked from
17:19:29 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: I'll drop it on irc (^^-- above)
17:19:55 [cwebber2]
... 2 ways to submit to validator: paste the URL into the URL area; if you see there's things at GitHub let's get the raw version of documents
17:20:11 [cwebber2]
... there are bad parts, I think it's served as plaintext, but let's just say we've got this
17:20:27 [cwebber2]
... when we hit the url we see this validation report, we see that it's from one of the example documents
17:20:44 [cwebber2]
... I'm not crazy about this reports, there are 3 errors which I think is too high, but I think it's a way to do that submission
17:20:55 [cwebber2]
... the problem is that we've got several objects in here without a required name property
17:21:01 [cwebber2]
tantek: is name or name map a must?
17:21:07 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: yes it's a MUST
17:21:26 [cwebber2]
... it's one thing that comes up, it's a MUST with few examples in the spec
17:21:51 [cwebber2]
... the other thing that we could do here is to copy paste it in here, take this same document, copy pasta, run another validation
17:21:56 [cwebber2]
... and it'll run validation again
17:22:15 [cwebber2]
... you can also upload a file, so you can say hey look, I'm in the test documents, how useful, upload that, validate it
17:22:21 [annbass]
17:22:49 [cwebber2]
... and there we go. lastly, you can use the validate endpoint as an api endpoint and via your fave programming language or curl on the command line, you can do that
17:22:54 [cwebber2]
... let me bring up a terminal...
17:23:44 [cwebber2]
... so this is just a curl command line http client, will shoot it off to the endpoint
17:24:15 [cwebber2]
... the endpoint returns first a list of notes, similar to what we see in the html interface, also returns the input that it received so you can verify you actually got what you thought you did
17:24:32 [cwebber2]
... so that is a way to do some validation from the command line... I use this to validate all the documents that are in the test document suite
17:24:38 [cwebber2]
... so that's a relatively easy shell
17:24:49 [cwebber2]
sandro: when I try that I get html with a link to the validator
17:24:54 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: yeah do it with https
17:25:06 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: you have to do something to tell curl to do the redirects if you use http
17:25:30 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: I think this should follow a lot of the use cases, I think there may be other ones, but api endpoint is kind of a failsafe on the rest
17:25:42 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: there are 4 ways to submit a document
17:26:07 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: speaking of validation, one of the things that's interesting about AS2 is that it's very permissive. an empty javascript object is a valid AS2 document
17:26:26 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: no properties are absolutely property, only one is that you MUST have a name on certain kinds of documents
17:26:36 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: despite that, there are some better and worse AS2 docs
17:26:44 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: so we might tell users there are things we'd like to see
17:26:51 [cwebber2]
... I did this by showing a heirarchy of notes
17:27:21 [cwebber2]
.... I'm not sure where this comes from but I know it from syslog style errors... ERROR, WARNING, NOTICE, INFO
17:27:54 [cwebber2]
... MUST should do error, should should do warning, style issues should be notices or informational, maybe a style thing
17:28:07 [cwebber2]
... notice is something you should probably change, and info is just info
17:28:42 [cwebber2]
... this seems to be working pretty well... I've implemented almost all the MUST, most of the SHOULDs, and a few of the MAYs and optional properties I haven't yet followed up on
17:29:03 [cwebber2]
for most of the properties and thet ypes we have in AS2.0 the domain and range of propertis are if you have an actor for the activity what are the things it could be
17:29:19 [cwebber2]
... so domain and range of properties, required properties, recommended properties, things allowed and not
17:29:41 [cwebber2]
sandro: so test documents are those all supposed to be OK documents? or should they be categorized with some as errors, warnings
17:29:51 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: good question, all of them are "these should work"
17:29:59 [cwebber2]
sandro: except maybe that one that wasn't ;)
17:30:09 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: yes maybe that doc or our spec that needs fixing
17:30:19 [cwebber2]
sandro: it might be nice to manually sort so we can test this
17:30:38 [cwebber2]
tantek: it's realtively stable at this point, could we add links for all warnings and errors?
17:30:41 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: good idea
17:30:52 [cwebber2]
tantek: that way if someone gets an error they can click it to see how to fix it
17:30:55 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: yeah
17:31:56 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: there are two views, you can see submitting or validation report, at the moment it's pretty plain janes but
17:32:03 [cwebber2]
tantek: can you show url based result again
17:32:24 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: yes, you can also tell one thing it's not doing here is complaining that it's being served as text/plain, which is one more thing it can do
17:32:30 [cwebber2]
tantek: that's great, here's a thing you can share
17:32:35 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: right right
17:32:48 [cwebber2]
... you can do url=${document location}
17:33:33 [cwebber2]
tantek: do you have any live sites on the web you can link to
17:33:35 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: not yet
17:33:50 [cwebber2]
tantek: valid challenge to working group: who can get a valid stream on their site first
17:34:04 [cwebber2]
sandro: are there any as1 -> as2 converters
17:34:26 [tsyesika] AS2 document on the web :)
17:34:37 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: any other questoins?
17:34:45 [cwebber2]
tantek: mostly that it's awesome
17:35:13 [cwebber2]
... one nice thing is our discussions are not subject to rfc2019
17:36:30 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: I'd love help, styling would be nice, I'm not sure, maybe tabs
17:36:42 [Arnaud]
I agree, nice progress!
17:36:44 [rhiaro]
My photo albums:
17:37:12 [cwebber2]
tantek: next topic is taking AS2 to CR, which is also yours eprodrom :)
17:38:04 [tantek]
Topic: Taking AS2 to CR (Evan)
17:38:47 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: what I'd like to do is my understanding is that we had three things we needed to do to get AS2 to CR state
17:39:12 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: these three things were to first resolve (blocking) issues, second provide a test suite, third provide a conformance section
17:39:24 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: I think as it stands we have first drafts or early versions of those three things
17:39:50 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: I may need to confirm that about the issues but at least in terms of test suite we have what we've kind of laid out as in terms of test suite, and we have conformance section in a draft state
17:40:02 [cwebber2]
tantek: for test suite do you have at least one test per feature of the sepc
17:40:08 [cwebber2]
17:40:22 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: would that be like for each type in the vocab have on document for each one
17:40:31 [cwebber2]
... so for properties we have at least one of each
17:40:41 [cwebber2]
... a property in as2 can't be an empty array for example
17:40:49 [cwebber2]
... here's a document with an empty array, throw an error
17:41:03 [cwebber2]
tantek: do you have a test for an assertion for each part of the spec
17:41:21 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: since we have tests from documentation examples, we have pretty good coverage
17:41:43 [cwebber2]
tantek: that's ok, having a comprehensive test suite is not a requirement to enter CR (but it is to enter)
17:41:53 [cwebber2]
sandro: I don't remember what the granularity was
17:42:04 [cwebber2]
tantek: was it raised as an issue to define granularity
17:42:07 [cwebber2]
sandro: yes
17:42:23 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: we went down an interesting path with that one, and it got caught up with the conformance classes
17:42:28 [tantek]
s/(but it is to enter)/(but it is to exit)
17:43:08 [cwebber2]
tantek: we have conformance section, have test suite with a lot of cases covered, so that leaves the open issues
17:43:19 [cwebber2]
tantek: so where are we in open issues
17:43:33 [cwebber2]
sandro: we have 12, and I won't snark that they aren't labeled ;)
17:43:46 [cwebber2]
... one of them is editorial but it's not my version of editorial!
17:44:11 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: we have 12, one is "why is as2 so bloated"
17:44:20 [cwebber2]
sandro: it has more in the issue than the title sounds like
17:44:22 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: right
17:45:44 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: so we have quite a few here, some are questions, some may be... I'm not sure if we should mark these as blocking or not
17:45:48 [Arnaud]
issues like "why is as2 so bloated?" should be closed with a comment stating that this is not actionable, if any particular part is questioned they should be listed in a separate issue
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17:46:29 [cwebber2]
tantek: the question is for you, how much time do you think you need to resolve these, and which of these do you want to ask for some group discussion on to move them forward
17:46:40 [aaronpk]
"this is not actionable" is my favorite way to close issues :P
17:47:16 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: not ready to do that today, I might be able to tomorrow, I'd like to run by james, would be great if we could run from 12 to 6
17:47:18 [cwebber2]
tantek: or 0
17:47:21 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: right or 0
17:47:32 [cwebber2]
tantek: I'd like to get as close as we can to that by end of this meeting
17:47:45 [cwebber2]
... so given what you said about not willing to categorize, can you be by tomorrow morning?
17:47:54 [cwebber2]
... we have agenda item scheduling and... we could do that first thing
17:48:07 [cwebber2]
... or you might come back tomorrow and say you resolved all
17:48:09 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: ha ha ha
17:48:23 [cwebber2]
sandro: james may participate remotely, maybe we can get an answer from him about ??
17:48:42 [cwebber2]
tantek: determine which you need group help for, then can james be present or is he happy to delegate to you about the issues
17:48:46 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: fine, good
17:48:58 [cwebber2]
tantek: otherwise will add to agenda for tomorrow morning; go through AS2 issues
17:49:03 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: with intent to close!
17:49:16 [cwebber2]
tantek: will block out an hour and a half for that
17:49:32 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: could I ask for rest of group to look through this? may speed discussion if people understand what topics are
17:49:51 [cwebber2]
tantek: consider this explicit call for commentary
17:50:02 [cwebber2]
... some of these like conformance clause you reasonably fixed
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17:50:15 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: yeah we were almost done by last f2f, but then we had f2f explosion with new issues
17:50:22 [cwebber2]
... this one is interesting can try to take that on today
17:52:03 [cwebber2]
tantek: every document I've seen has CR exit criteria in spec or include it inline
17:52:07 [cwebber2]
17:54:35 [eprodrom]
ack cwebber
17:54:37 [cwebber2]
shevski: why not have it be in the official w3c-social?
17:54:38 [cwebber2]
17:55:04 [cwebber2]
aaronpk: it isn't a requirement to do so, some required moving to their own group
17:55:05 [tantek]
ack cwebber2
17:55:10 [tantek]
ack cwebber2
17:55:14 [tantek]
17:55:17 [tantek]
ack next
17:55:42 [cwebber2]
annbass: question is is there some process where it should go ahead of CR, I could easily see one person's repo goes south or something
17:55:52 [cwebber2]
tantek: or that's one possible org issue
17:56:13 [cwebber2]
aaronpk: before github was used more mailing list was only place to do that, but now github is using more
17:56:31 [cwebber2]
... so I wonder if we should be archiving that discussion
17:56:48 [cwebber2]
annbass: that might be an advisory board thing
17:57:26 [tantek]
There is the W3C-wide document on use of GitHub:
17:58:00 [cwebber2]
tantek: repo issue is possibly helpful
17:58:07 [cwebber2]
aaronpk: that's possibly useful around patent stuff
17:58:11 [cwebber2]
tantek: lots of good reasons to do that
17:58:44 [aaronpk]
it seems there is not a good answer to the particular question of archiving the github issues discussions
17:59:06 [tantek]
break for 10 minutes
17:59:21 [tantek]
break until 14:10 EDT
17:59:27 [tantek]
Loqi ^^^
17:59:30 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: does the validator send an accept header?
17:59:33 [wilkie]
come back at 14:10 EDT
17:59:35 [Loqi]
I added a countdown for 3/16 11:10am (#5817)
17:59:37 [rhiaro]
I could look at the source but it's easier to ask :)
18:00:08 [Loqi]
Tantekelik made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]]
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18:09:01 [Loqi]
come back
18:09:02 [Loqi]
Countdown set by wilkie on 3/16/16 at 10:59am
18:09:03 [aaronpk]
you're the only one on the talky right now anyway :P
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18:13:52 [rhiaro]
scribe: rhiaro
18:13:57 [ben_thatmustbeme]
scribenick: rhiaro
18:13:59 [rhiaro]
TOPIC: Demos
18:14:04 [tantek]
chair: eprodrom
18:14:32 [rhiaro]
TOPIC: Demo of - mediagoblin federation
18:14:45 [rhiaro]
tsyesika: this is a predecessor to activitypub, the pumpio as1 stuff
18:15:24 [rhiaro]
... Going to add a photo onto media goblin and send it to a pump io user
18:15:39 [rhiaro]
... *does so*
18:15:57 [bengo]
so good!
18:16:03 [rhiaro]
... it has federated from mediagoblin to pumpio
18:16:10 [rhiaro]
... Can post a reply in pumpio
18:16:25 [rhiaro]
... Back into mediagoblin, the reply should show
18:16:29 [rhiaro]
... *it does*
18:16:33 [rhiaro]
Everyone: applause
18:17:00 [tantek]
18:17:04 [rhiaro]
tsyesika: Coming up in the release after next
18:17:06 [rhiaro]
... Any questions?
18:17:13 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: Bravo! Couple of questions..
18:17:17 [rhiaro]
... How does it work for idfferent media types?
18:17:24 [rhiaro]
... Media goblin is generous with media types
18:17:42 [rhiaro]
tyesika: Media goblin has a todo to support video and audio in the api for federation. Currently only images federated
18:18:00 [rhiaro]
... It will support them in the same way as images. Serialise the video or audio as how as1 defines them, and do the same post request to the inbox
18:18:12 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: About likes... do they translate to media goblin?
18:18:29 [rhiaro]
... If you go to the pumpio page and click like on it
18:18:38 [rhiaro]
tsyesika: they will work by the time I finish mediagoblin
18:18:45 [rhiaro]
... Things are still a bit broken
18:18:51 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: What do you think next steps are with this?
18:18:59 [rhiaro]
... with federation of mediagoblin?
18:19:27 [rhiaro]
tsyesika: Currently we don't have comments that you make in mediagoblin federated *back*. All activities need to federate and there will be support of like and the others.
18:19:35 [rhiaro]
... And then probably the media types as you brought up
18:19:44 [rhiaro]
... One of the reasons media goblin is good is support of media types
18:19:53 [rhiaro]
... And eventually having a up to date implementation of activitypub
18:20:02 [Loqi]
Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]]
18:20:22 [rhiaro]
cwebber2: I think it's interesting for the group to know that tsyesika has been working on this for a long time, and you might wonder why it took so long to get to this point, and I think it would be interesting for you to explain what the challenges are
18:20:40 [rhiaro]
tsyesika: The overwhelming biggest thing for mediagoblin why it took so long is because of the database structure
18:20:53 [rhiaro]
... Mediagoblin uses sql, postgres or sqlite, and it was designed prior to federation and the pump api
18:21:13 [rhiaro]
... having things like comments that can be on other things, comments on comments and other things being in collections, involves creating generic keys
18:21:19 [rhiaro]
... something something referential integrity
18:21:29 [rhiaro]
... Lots of challenges implementing federation on an existing implementation
18:21:52 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: That's a really interesting point, pumpio uses document databases, so couchbase or mongo or redis, but it's relatively easy to wedge little bits of data into places that they weren't intended
18:21:58 [rhiaro]
... which is harder to do with an sql database
18:22:24 [rhiaro]
cwebber2: we're theoretically advocating ... and this applies to others.. it's a general problem when you have assumptinos about what types of things are responses to other types of things
18:22:35 [rhiaro]
... Like comments ony being on media, that was an easy assumption, but the rest of the world might not assume that
18:22:48 [rhiaro]
... We don't have an answer for constraints in federation
18:22:57 [rhiaro]
... and this will be a challenge for owncloud as well. We haven't talked about this in the gorup
18:23:09 [rhiaro]
... How to convert existing applications that were designed before you planned to federate, and move them into the federation wrold
18:23:20 [rhiaro]
... We're managing it with media goblin thanks to jessica, but not everyone will have the resources for that
18:23:28 [rhiaro]
... WHat can we do to help people know and prepare fo rdoing this?
18:23:38 [rhiaro]
... Do we permit organisations to set these kinds of constraints?
18:23:49 [rhiaro]
Karli: database structure is part of that, but not every social network works the same
18:23:59 [rhiaro]
... Facebook and g+ and twitter all have apis that work differently
18:24:14 [rhiaro]
... twitter has obvious limitations with the size of the text, if you can like, if there are comments or retweets which don't exist in other social networks
18:24:41 [rhiaro]
... It's a huge question. Good to have an api that you can use to model all kinds of social interactions, but does it mena that every social network has to support everything that every other social network supports?
18:24:49 [rhiaro]
... You could drop things that are not supported
18:24:53 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: that's probably a great way to handle it
18:24:58 [rhiaro]
... THere might be other ways to do it too
18:25:07 [rhiaro]
... You oculd have a little grey image icon 'there is something here I don't understand'
18:25:13 [rhiaro]
... like a puzzle piece in html documents
18:25:17 [rhiaro]
... some embedded stuff that doesn't make sense
18:25:21 [rhiaro]
... pumpio just throws stuff out
18:25:46 [rhiaro]
tantek: the experience with webmention is that there are situations where having defined fallback behaviour is useful and implementable. And also sometimes just dropping stuff works. Very case by case.
18:26:02 [rhiaro]
... By starting with.. just get comments working. Suddenly everything else can have a fallback that can be interpreted as a comment
18:26:18 [rhiaro]
... So when people started doing lieks via webmention, by including a summary in your like that says 'so and so likes this'
18:26:28 [rhiaro]
... if you understand likes you ignore the summary and just increment your counter or whatever
18:26:33 [rhiaro]
... but if you don't, you can display it as a comment
18:26:38 [rhiaro]
... so there's no new implementation needed
18:26:49 [rhiaro]
Karli: so it's the responsibilty of the consumer to ignore or translate something?
18:27:20 [rhiaro]
tantek: we didn't have to, because comments were designed in such a way to handle summary/content/etc, that later interactions could provide fallback content like a summary, so that something that only implements comments doesn't have to do anything new
18:27:26 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: reacji is a great example
18:27:31 [rhiaro]
... Someone posts a single emoji reply
18:27:36 [rhiaro]
... Slack formalised the name
18:27:46 [rhiaro]
... You choose an emoji character as a reply
18:27:49 [rhiaro]
... you see on github a lot
18:27:58 [rhiaro]
... You end up with long comment threads full of emoji
18:28:10 [rhiaro]
... Slack did a thing where they showed the emoji with the number of people who reacted with that
18:28:33 [rhiaro]
... So we're starting to experiment with that, so ifyou don't do anything an dsomeone posts an emoji reply you show it as a comment, but if you want to you can not show it as a comment you can pull it up and create a counter
18:28:46 [rhiaro]
... the like example seems trivial becasue everyoen knows what it is, but now it's happening again
18:29:24 [rhiaro]
cwebber2: one of the things that's interesting about ... you must have started with a database structure that still allows that
18:29:37 [rhiaro]
... but existing implementatkons like mediagoblin start with databases where it's still difficult to even do fallbacks in that way
18:29:58 [rhiaro]
... if your table only contains these fields, what do you do as a fallback? If you have hard coded links between tables, you need to be able to make that generic enough to do fallbacks
18:30:15 [rhiaro]
... In indieweb you have this view that everything is a post and you can adapt that. But other things don't have that assumption in their worldview
18:30:21 [rhiaro]
... So how do we build on these different world views?
18:30:32 [rhiaro]
... You would be surprised at the different world views, even trying to be accommodating for fallbacks
18:30:38 [rhiaro]
tantek: the more you can minimise those assumptions the better
18:30:49 [rhiaro]
cwebber2: that's not necesarily true for an organisation that already came in iwth its own assumptions
18:31:12 [rhiaro]
tantek: from a spec point of view. Of course organisations have their own assumptions. But with a spec, the more you can minimise the assumption sthat you're asking peopel to take on, the less work it is to make it compatible
18:31:20 [rhiaro]
shevski: the problem also is that this stuff is going to continue to evolve
18:31:24 [rhiaro]
... reactionmojis
18:31:45 [rhiaro]
... it's going to be really fluid. You don't want want to get into a race of being compatible now, because it's not going to stay around. It needs to be generic and extensible, and quite basic int erms of standards
18:31:52 [eprodrom_]
18:31:55 [rhiaro]
tantek: we've done both, compatible with now and generic
18:32:08 [rhiaro]
... the web took off because every single piece was cmpatibile with what already existed
18:32:14 [rhiaro]
... you could serve html over ftp, or plain text over http
18:32:30 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: I'd like to bring it back to the pumpio and mediagoblin federation
18:32:54 [rhiaro]
... There is a lot of pumpio federation process that's kind of string and chewing gum
18:33:07 [Karli]
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18:33:09 [rhiaro]
... THe oauth key discovery process is like from an older version of oauth2 that's no longer compatible
18:33:13 [rhiaro]
... There's the dial back stuff
18:33:17 [rhiaro]
... There's the webfinger stuff in there
18:33:27 [nicolagreco]
nicolagreco has joined #social
18:33:33 [rhiaro]
... And probably other bits, hacked to make them work
18:33:58 [rhiaro]
... Do you think that where we're going with activitypub is going to .. what's th erelationship with all that stuff and where we're going with activitypub?
18:34:05 [rhiaro]
tsyesika: good question
18:34:13 [rhiaro]
... ap at the moment doesn't specify too much of those details
18:34:18 [rhiaro]
... We've decided oauth2
18:34:23 [rhiaro]
cwebber2: we were also told not to pick a stance there
18:34:35 [rhiaro]
tsyesika: so it's vague, so currently they would be incompatible because you can implement oauth2 in several ways
18:34:38 [bengo]
<3 OIDC (which is a more specified flavor of oauth2)
18:34:47 [rhiaro]
... the discovery stuff, we do have stuff but we think it will change
18:34:55 [rhiaro]
cwebber2: we already agreed on some change. We just haven't written yet
18:34:56 [bengo]
including discovery, dynamic client registration, etc
18:35:17 [rhiaro]
tsyesika: so doesn't specify all of that, but as a downside will lead to incompatible implemenations without specifying
18:35:24 [rhiaro]
cwebber2: do you think there's anything other than auth?
18:35:31 [bengo]
Fair. Communities of different size tho
18:35:32 [rhiaro]
tsyesika: i don't think anything other that's major
18:35:43 [rhiaro]
cwebber2: that's the big thing that's a known problem. If it's a constraint then it's a constraint
18:36:01 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: I see two ways of doing that. One is to include authenticaiton and say this is how you get an oauth 2 key in order to make these calls, and here are the steps
18:36:29 [rhiaro]
... Another way to maintain compatibility is to have a suite of specifications, AP specifically talks about getting your activities back and forth, and then a discovery specification and an authentication specification or something like that, which would be short
18:36:59 [rhiaro]
cwebber2: I think discovery would be smooth put in there, but authentication I would be enthusiastic about saying there are auxilliary specs, but they might not make it to rec within this group's lifetime, but we have something that we can point people to. I think that's a good route.
18:37:11 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: this is a lot of trouble to go to to end up with incompatible implementations
18:37:18 [rhiaro]
... As one of the other people who has done this, I know how much trouble this was
18:37:23 [rhiaro]
... I'm really impressed
18:37:26 [rhiaro]
... Any other quesitons?
18:37:34 [rhiaro]
tantek: how much work would it be to update these implementations to use as2/ap
18:37:50 [rhiaro]
tsyesika: I don't think.. it's still significant amount of work, but not too bad
18:38:08 [rhiaro]
cwebber2: lots of things close, major things that are different are.. moving from as1 to as2 is not very hard, but needs to be done.
18:38:12 [rhiaro]
... We need to change over the way it does discovery
18:38:19 [rhiaro]
... And ... those are the biggest things
18:38:29 [rhiaro]
... I think there are a lot more small things, but most things are close
18:38:36 [rhiaro]
tsyesika: I don't think it's too bad
18:38:52 [rhiaro]
cwebber2: shouldnt' be as much work as it was to restructure the database
18:39:04 [rhiaro]
Going to be far less work to get to that point
18:39:17 [rhiaro]
tantek: When do you think you'll have an implementaiton of the current version of ap?
18:39:29 [annbass]
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18:39:37 [rhiaro]
cwebber2: this depends on resources within the project. We were lucky that we could bring jessica on with a crowdfunding campaign
18:39:52 [rhiaro]
... now that money is ending and jessica got a job that is supprotive of her work in this group luckily
18:40:15 [rhiaro]
... But I'm currently at Stripe retreat, but after this we don't know what our resources are. Might be volunteers
18:40:17 [rhiaro]
... Really hard to say
18:40:38 [rhiaro]
... THe stuff that you're seeing here is for a release in the next week
18:40:53 [rhiaro]
... Then we're polishing 1.0, then we'll start moving things towards ap
18:41:01 [rhiaro]
... That's basically the state of the wrold
18:41:17 [rhiaro]
... How long that will take... I'm already bad at estimations... so doing that for a project where I have no idea what our resources are, I'm not going to bother
18:41:28 [rhiaro]
tantek: so you think you can release with this implementation?
18:41:45 [rhiaro]
cwebber2: yes, with notes that should expect federation stuff to change, and in the interim it will federate with pumpio
18:41:55 [rhiaro]
... Users are expecting that first stage of federation will be at this level
18:41:59 [rhiaro]
tantek: maintain back compat?
18:42:05 [rhiaro]
cwebber2: I'm more worried about authentication for that
18:42:16 [rhiaro]
... activitystreams stuff is manageable
18:42:18 [rhiaro]
... Not that worried
18:42:23 [rhiaro]
... Don't want jessica's work to not get out there
18:42:28 [rhiaro]
... Really want working federation otu the door
18:43:11 [rhiaro]
tantek: several generations of frozen federation suites out there that are being left behind. Like diaspora, federating amongst itslef and nobody else. And GNU social. Thousands of users, but not federating with others, only themselves.
18:43:17 [rhiaro]
... Movement has been slow.
18:43:41 [rhiaro]
... This is why I'm concerned that if you're going to make a release that includes this work will it end up like one of those, or will it move quickly and break things?
18:43:47 [rhiaro]
cwebber2: I'm hopi;ng move quickly and break things
18:43:51 [rhiaro]
... our goal is to support the work in this group
18:43:57 [rhiaro]
... We've been clear about that with users
18:44:01 [Loqi]
can confirm that lunch will be delivered
18:44:02 [Loqi]
Countdown set by rhiaro on 3/16/16 at 7:37am
18:44:05 [rhiaro]
... And some people in disapora are paying attention to what we're doing here
18:44:22 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: Can I challenge us to do a similar demo to this with AP in portland?
18:44:29 [rhiaro]
cwebber2: We can certainly try
18:44:35 [rhiaro]
... But it's going to be a tumultuous time in our lives
18:44:45 [rhiaro]
... We will try, but no promises. Set your expecations accordingly.
18:45:17 [rhiaro]
Karli: I'm still part outsider.. but at owncloud we want to implement something soon. But we need something that is relatively stable
18:45:33 [rhiaro]
... That we can see a path.
18:45:49 [rhiaro]
tantek: what level of breaking new ground vs. interoperating with a few things vs interoperating with a lot ofthings are you comfortable with?
18:46:02 [rhiaro]
Karli: We already implemented federation for sharing files 1.5 years ago, and several of the steps here
18:46:15 [rhiaro]
... Version 3 of our api which is backward compatible, and 1.5 years later it's something 'stable' or 1.0
18:46:20 [rhiaro]
... So no problem with adapting to changes
18:46:39 [rhiaro]
... But as I understand this group, there are some really different approaches, like activitypub and solid stuff and other approaches, which are completely different
18:46:45 [rhiaro]
... We can't implement 2 or 3 different approaches
18:46:51 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: That's a good segue
18:47:14 [rhiaro]
TOPIC: Demo of micropub CRUD
18:48:32 [Arnaud]
it works!
18:49:12 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: Since the last time we talked I've worked on spec and implementation to support editing and deleting posts
18:49:12 [rhiaro]
... So I can show the whole workflow
18:49:26 [rhiaro]
... Quill is a micropub client that I wrote that currently only supports creating
18:49:33 [rhiaro]
... My website is the micropub server which uspports full CRUD
18:49:39 [rhiaro]
... And there's a micropub client built into my site
18:49:56 [rhiaro]
... *creates post in Quill*
18:50:02 [KevinMarks] is empty - are you doing demos somewhere else I can see?
18:50:06 [rhiaro]
... *shows Quill output*
18:50:44 [rhiaro]
*** please hold for technical issues***
18:50:55 [rhiaro]
*** elevator music ***
18:51:02 [tantek]
aaronpk fiddles with talky computer
18:51:16 [rhiaro]
*** and we're back! ***
18:51:24 [KevinMarks]
I can hear, but screen is fuzzy
18:51:34 [KevinMarks]
screenshare instead of cam?
18:52:04 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: So, created a post. It's on my site here
18:52:24 [KevinMarks]
I suspect screensharing needs even more RAM than cam
18:52:59 [rhiaro]
... Location sent with browser location api to micropub request
18:53:23 [rhiaro]
*** everything crashes ***
18:53:41 [rhiaro]
*** uncrash ***
18:53:56 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: When I'm logged into my site, I have a menu bar which lets me edit
18:54:06 [rhiaro]
... Loads a javascript micropub client
18:54:17 [rhiaro]
... Because I'm logged in my site generates an access token the client can pull out of the page
18:54:30 [rhiaro]
... I gave myself a couple of fields I commonly want to edit: tags, syndication urls, date
18:54:41 [rhiaro]
... So I can add tags, hit save
18:54:54 [rhiaro]
... What's happening is the js app is talking to my micropub endpoint directly, no other serverside componant at all
18:54:58 [rhiaro]
... *does so*
18:55:22 [rhiaro]
... In order to populate this interface with existing tags etc, it uses a new part of micropub which is the R in CRUD which lets the client request specific properties
18:55:30 [rhiaro]
... I don't need to load the entire content of the post to edit
18:55:35 [rhiaro]
... So it reuqests just the pieces that it needs
18:55:47 [rhiaro]
... There's no way to edit the text of the post with this interface, don't have a client for thsi yet
18:56:00 [rhiaro]
... Turns out that I don't often edit the text. Wanted to optimise this for the most common edits
18:56:06 [rhiaro]
... Do plan on building a full editor for html posts in Quill
18:56:14 [rhiaro]
... Also have a delete button
18:56:43 [KevinMarks]
why is videoconferencing still so flaky? I had this working in 1999 with tiny amounts of RAM and it ran for weeks at a time
18:57:09 [cwebber2]
KevinMarks: let's move back to webcams with pages that refresh every 30 seconds on a jpeg link
18:57:14 [rhiaro]
... JS client could drop in with one file. Only special thing is how to get the access token, but I don't see why other people can't reuse it
18:57:24 [rhiaro]
... I could open source it
18:57:30 [rhiaro]
... There's not a lot of code
18:57:39 [rhiaro]
... Here's the micropub request in jquery
18:57:48 [nicolagreco]
nicolagreco has joined #social
18:57:48 [rhiaro]
... The rest is just ui stuff
18:58:05 [KevinMarks]
I'd accept multicast RTP
18:58:19 [KevinMarks]
(audio has gone)
18:58:51 [annbass]
sigh .. trying to get it going
18:59:13 [annbass]
is sound back?
18:59:13 [eprodrom_]
jasnell: so, big favour to ask you
18:59:28 [bengo]
sound just came on for me
18:59:37 [bengo]
talky is good
18:59:50 [rhiaro]
TOPIC: Demo of events and webmention
18:59:50 [annbass]
ok .. arnaud and kevinmarks ... you can hear?
19:00:01 [Arnaud]
yes, thanks
19:00:17 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: Here's a new interface in quill for posting events. Needs cleaning up, but minimal and works
19:00:26 [rhiaro]
... *posts event*
19:00:58 [KevinMarks]
and the gpu just coughed a hirball and blacked out all my browser windows
19:01:21 [KevinMarks]
yay, i can hear again
19:01:43 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: Event posted to my site, and appears in Woodwind, a reader
19:01:59 [rhiaro]
... The reader recognises that this is an event post and adds these additional rsvp buttons
19:02:03 [annbass]
19:02:13 [rhiaro]
... I authenticated with the reader, and during that process I granted it an access token that lets it become a micropub client to my site
19:02:25 [rhiaro]
... So when I click a star on a post, it makes a micropub request to my site
19:02:34 [rhiaro]
... Similarly, when I click an rsvp button it makes an rsvp post on my site
19:02:40 [rhiaro]
... Also a micropub request
19:02:53 [rhiaro]
... So I see the rsvp in the events feed on my site
19:03:42 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: created in quill, quill added it to my site, woodwind read it from my site, woodwind created a new post to rsvp and posted that to my site
19:03:48 [rhiaro]
shevski: in what ways can I rsvp to your event?
19:03:58 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: You can rsvp by writing a post on your site htat's an rsvp post and send a webmention to this page
19:04:05 [rhiaro]
... and you'll show up in that list
19:04:25 [rhiaro]
shevski: any other way? Only way is for me to create a post on my site using...?
19:04:38 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: doesn't matter how you create as long as it iends with with html + microformats
19:04:50 [rhiaro]
shevski: Why can't I go on your site and click a button?
19:05:11 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: you want me to host your rsvps?
19:05:16 [rhiaro]
shevski: or have that as an option
19:06:17 [rhiaro]
... it's a little hardcore
19:06:30 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: my site is not a general purpose events site, it's just my site. I also don't have a comments form.
19:06:53 [rhiaro]
annbass: *trying to send rsvp from known*
19:08:09 [rhiaro]
dmitriz: is there any access control? Can events be private?
19:08:12 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: not right now, planning to
19:08:30 [rhiaro]
dmitriz: haven't had chance to look at the spec, how does the recipient of the webmention discover that is of type event
19:08:49 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: here's the parsed microformats of the rsvp post. has in-reply-to and rsvp properties
19:09:01 [rhiaro]
... that's enough that my site recognises that it's an rsvp
19:09:16 [rhiaro]
... THe event itself looks like this, which has type: h-event, and start and end date
19:09:32 [rhiaro]
... The post type discovery spec tells you how to get from amicroformats object to something else
19:10:35 [rhiaro]
dmitriz: you don't have access control on this site, but is there provision for private and public?
19:10:47 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: what you're talking about would be more on the reading and consuming parts of the spec
19:10:59 [rhiaro]
... THe way that woodwind found the post, you would need to have a way to authenticate to begin with
19:11:28 [rhiaro]
... We don't have anything.. woodwind found this via PuSH and polling the feed. There isn't a mechanism in PuSH to support private posts. But it's on the consuming side rather than the micropub side
19:11:33 [rhiaro]
... Similarly in webmention we need a way to verify things that are private
19:12:27 [rhiaro]
TOPIC: Demo of rsvp with Falcon
19:12:56 [rhiaro]
tantek: I have an rsvp post that I"m going to be sending to aaron's event
19:13:33 [rhiaro]
... **php warnings, blames aaronpk**
19:14:02 [rhiaro]
... Is showing debugging info about finding webmention endpoints
19:14:52 [rhiaro]
... posts, reloads aaron's event post
19:15:49 [rhiaro]
... rsvp is there
19:15:53 [rhiaro]
... and on my site
19:16:56 [rhiaro]
... and on twitter
19:17:08 [rhiaro]
... using twitter's proprietary api
19:18:17 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: 20 minute break to recharge
19:18:32 [rhiaro]
... (recharge parking meter / people)
19:18:43 [wilkie]
reconvene at 3:40pm EDT
19:18:44 [Loqi]
I added a countdown for 3/16 12:40pm (#5818)
19:19:22 [shevski]
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19:20:47 [tantek]
tantek has joined #social
19:25:03 [aaronpk]
Arnaud: haha i never considered that!
19:25:10 [aaronpk]
is it not used as a verb in french?
19:26:34 [jasnell]
eprodrom_: favor?
19:27:32 [KevinMarks]
well the R part is the verb Respondez S'il Vous Plait - "respond if it pleases you"
19:29:27 [bengo]
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19:30:17 [KevinMarks]
but RSVP becomes a noun, and then a verb becasue that's how English imports external code
19:35:14 [Karli]
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19:39:01 [Loqi]
19:39:02 [Loqi]
Countdown set by wilkie on 3/16/16 at 12:18pm
19:41:35 [Karli_]
Karli_ has joined #social
19:43:08 [Karli]
Karli has joined #social
19:43:39 [snarfed]
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19:45:35 [eprodrom_]
jasnell: so, the only thing keeping us from voting to take AS2 to CR is that there are a number of open issues on the repo
19:46:11 [jasnell]
ok, I weighed in on most of them
19:46:32 [jasnell]
just need to know how the WG chooses to resolve those
19:46:40 [eprodrom_]
19:46:56 [eprodrom_]
So, the favor was, "Please weigh in on them by tomorrow morning so we have an idea where you stand."
19:48:07 [eprodrom_]
It's likely that unless there's some intense debate tomorrow we'll default to resolving per your recommendation
19:48:27 [Karli]
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19:49:52 [Arnaud]
re: RSVP, KevinMarks got it right :)
19:50:35 [aaronpk]
is "RSVP" as an abbreviation used in french?
19:50:40 [Arnaud]
it's also that it seems to be used both for the question and the response in english, that's the most confusing part to me
19:51:33 [Arnaud]
yes, it is used as an abbreviation but only at the bottom of an invitation or something like that
19:51:59 [aaronpk]
ah yes. in english I would send you an RSVP
19:52:34 [shevski]
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19:52:57 [shevski]
19:53:38 [Arnaud]
in French RSVP is merely used as the prompt/question
19:53:52 [rhiaro]
TOPIC: demo of rsvps
19:53:52 [Arnaud]
then you would just talk about "responses"
19:54:49 [rhiaro]
ben_thatmust: *shows rsvp demo, same as aaronpk's*
19:54:57 [rhiaro]
... Now a reactji - emoji response
19:55:17 [rhiaro]
... post with a single emoji in it is the original post
19:55:24 [rhiaro]
... but the response shows as a count
19:55:26 [tantek]
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19:55:28 [rhiaro]
... *it is a poop*
19:55:37 [rhiaro]
... A bunch of others from testing
19:55:58 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: it's not a different post type, it's just ap ost that has a single emoji? So you're looking in the content?
19:56:10 [rhiaro]
ben_thatmust: yes, I'm parsing out if it's a single emoji. Much harder than I expected
19:56:28 [rhiaro]
... An emoji is a bunch of characters, or two letters that form a flag, which is a single emoji
19:56:36 [rhiaro]
... Any questions?
19:58:19 [rhiaro]
... *annbass attempts to send poopji*
19:58:20 [tantek]
annbass, can you post a reply?
19:59:02 [Loqi]
19:59:03 [Loqi]
Countdown set by wilkie on 3/16/16 at 9:03am
19:59:25 [rhiaro]
TOPIC: Owncloud demo
19:59:40 [eprodrom_]
"*it is a poop*"
19:59:42 [wilkie]
Loqi: what is that
20:00:03 [Loqi]
Eprodrom made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]]
20:00:08 [snarfed]
snarfed has left #social
20:00:11 [rhiaro]
Karli: owncloud is not technically a social network
20:00:21 [rhiaro]
... First, install owncloud server - unzipping a file
20:00:26 [rhiaro]
... update some permissions
20:00:45 [rhiaro]
... and voila
20:01:12 [rhiaro]
... lots in to
20:01:38 [rhiaro]
... can deploy anywhere that supports php
20:01:56 [rhiaro]
... desktop and mobile clients are synchronised for files and favourites, comments, tags
20:02:27 [rhiaro]
... Owncloud is not social in itself, its for protecting my own files
20:02:35 [tantek]
For the logs, my federated RSVP permalink from my demo:
20:02:37 [rhiaro]
... you can have calendar, contacts, gallery, all kinds of things
20:02:52 [rhiaro]
... So now we have two servers, we can do federation
20:02:57 [rhiaro]
... Can share calendar etc with other pepole, uses caldav
20:03:09 [rhiaro]
... calendar is one of the most popular owncloud use cases these days
20:03:23 [rhiaro]
... here's a folder of documents with an example .odt file
20:03:32 [aaronpk]
webmention implementations were: Falcon (sending), p3k's Telegraph (sending), (receiving), (sending and receiving)
20:03:37 [rhiaro]
... here is the sharing side bar, can share with people on the same server, or I can send out links to everyone, or I can do federation
20:03:44 [rhiaro]
... For federation I type in a federation ID which is a host name + a username
20:04:05 [rhiaro]
... so I can now do federation with a user on another server
20:04:07 [aaronpk]
micropub implementations were: p3k (server), Quill (client), Woodwind (client), (server and client)
20:04:13 [rhiaro]
... one server pings the other server and says here is a sharing request
20:04:30 [rhiaro]
... on the other server, it shows a notification which lets me accept the sharing request
20:04:41 [rhiaro]
... and then I have... maybe... or not...
20:04:51 [rhiaro]
... I have the documents folder shared between the two servers
20:04:58 [rhiaro]
... The actual transfer of the files is done via webdav
20:05:05 [rhiaro]
... but we had to come up with our own protocol for the invitation process
20:05:19 [rhiaro]
... so this was implemented 1.5 years ago. Nowadays solid does stuff here that could have been resused but wasn't because of timing
20:05:33 [rhiaro]
... The social part is then if you click on this shared folder the sidebar opens, which lets you comment
20:05:38 [rhiaro]
... which is visible to everyone with access to this file
20:05:49 [rhiaro]
... and there's an activitystream which lets you see what's happening with this folder. New files, comments, changes
20:05:58 [rhiaro]
... And there's an overall activity feed where I can see everything that's going on on my server
20:06:06 [rhiaro]
sandro: does the activity feed live on the same server as the file?
20:06:08 [rhiaro]
Karli: yes
20:06:18 [rhiaro]
sandro: so if 100 people share a file, there's one feed?
20:06:28 [rhiaro]
Karli: everyone with access to a file or folder also sees the activity on this file or folder
20:06:38 [rhiaro]
sandro: if I make a comment it's sent back to the server where the file is
20:06:55 [rhiaro]
Karli: this is the part that's missing. We do everything with webdav. Sharing information including comments via webdav
20:07:03 [rhiaro]
... We could just read comments from remote servers via webdav
20:07:09 [rhiaro]
... but if there's a different appraoch we would implement that
20:07:18 [rhiaro]
dmitriz: how do yu handle permissions and access control?
20:07:36 [rhiaro]
Karli: if you go on a folder, sharing, there are different ways to share
20:07:49 [rhiaro]
... you can password protect links, allow expiry, allow read only
20:07:57 [rhiaro]
... expiration date google announced yesterday, but we had for 5 years
20:08:00 [rhiaro]
dmitriz: HAH
20:08:16 [rhiaro]
Karli: Other people can delete files, or add a new file in a shared folder
20:08:25 [rhiaro]
dmitriz: where do you store access control information?
20:08:32 [rhiaro]
Karli: filesystem for storing files, metadata including access control in database
20:08:38 [rhiaro]
... can be sqlite or mysql or postgres
20:08:55 [rhiaro]
... So not a social network, we're approaching this from a different direction
20:09:03 [rhiaro]
... Idea was for file hosting. But of course I want to share my files with someone
20:09:08 [rhiaro]
... But without uploading it to a social network
20:09:20 [rhiaro]
... All this sharing information is also present on the desktop clients
20:09:35 [rhiaro]
... communicates via rest api with the server to initate the sharing request with the server
20:09:49 [rhiaro]
shevski: if something is shared do they get a copy? what if they both change at the same time?
20:09:58 [rhiaro]
Karli: on the desktop and mobile side we do bi-directional syncing
20:10:07 [rhiaro]
... does conflict detection and you might get a conflict file if necessary
20:10:15 [rhiaro]
... but the federation is not synced, it's a live connection
20:10:37 [annbass]
annbass has joined #social
20:10:47 [rhiaro]
... We have implemented our own api for the activity feed but we want to do the next version with AS2
20:11:00 [rhiaro]
... Means we will implement desktop and mobile clients for consuming as2
20:11:30 [rhiaro]
cwebber2: we should talk about if... the challenging thing with the database that we talked about.. the upload media stuff we should talk about. We have some vague discussion fo that in AP but needs work
20:11:36 [rhiaro]
... I'd be interested to see the direction and work together on that
20:11:56 [rhiaro]
Karli: Another thing from a strategic perspective.. a lot of people see owncloud as a dropbox replacement
20:12:08 [rhiaro]
... But I think this will evolve into a social network
20:12:17 [rhiaro]
... We have 8 million users
20:12:26 [rhiaro]
... so kind of a trojan horse
20:12:38 [rhiaro]
sandro: how many companies run servers?
20:12:49 [rhiaro]
Karli: the biggest installation that we are involved with is for half a million for universities in German
20:12:59 [rhiaro]
... But we just learnted that there's an installation in India with 1.1 million users
20:13:19 [rhiaro]
... Scaling is actually quite easy based on web technologies
20:13:25 [Karli]
Karli has joined #social
20:13:40 [rhiaro]
TOPIC: dinner
20:13:46 [rhiaro]
sandro: dinner at 6, any objections?
20:14:44 [rhiaro]
TOPIC: Implementations
20:15:14 [rhiaro]
shevski: I thought the status doc would be upated and we could just review it
20:15:24 [rhiaro]
... but it hasn't. Maybe we need to go over what we're tryign to do with it and who is going to update what
20:15:27 [rhiaro]
tantek: what's it for?
20:15:45 [rhiaro]
shevski: The idea was to partly start thinking about what are the next steps to get to CR for various things, and what do we need for the implementationr eport
20:15:55 [rhiaro]
... and what can we do in the time we have to grow adoption for any of these things
20:16:07 [hhalpin]
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20:16:10 [rhiaro]
... Fulfilling process requirements and also the wider problem of getting more users and implementations?
20:16:25 [rhiaro]
tantek: it has links to implemenations?
20:16:27 [hhalpin]
Where's the links to existing implementations?
20:16:29 [rhiaro]
shevski: it doesn't at the moment
20:16:35 [rhiaro]
sandro: webmention has a link
20:16:42 [aaronpk]
20:17:11 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: we have 2 things. One is documeting implementations, and one next steps
20:17:19 [nicolagreco]
nicolagreco has joined #social
20:17:52 [rhiaro]
sandro: this is the link to all the other documents
20:17:58 [rhiaro]
... trying to get peopel to focus on what happens next
20:18:08 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: I think us as chairs need it to see what to do to push things forward
20:18:31 [rhiaro]
sandro: we could just talk about this for as2 right now at least for a few minutes
20:18:43 [rhiaro]
... I don't think we've wrapped up next steps for as2
20:18:58 [tantek]
we already have a list of our documents on our home page: - no need for a separate page
20:19:04 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: Let's take til 1630 to discuss listing implementations and maintaining the list from hereon
20:19:16 [rhiaro]
... and from 1630 to 17-1730 discussing next steps for documents
20:19:29 [rhiaro]
tantek: I want to kill the document status page because I think it's useless and busy work
20:19:38 [rhiaro]
... We already have drafts on our homepage
20:19:43 [rhiaro]
... s/drafts/links to drafts
20:19:56 [hhalpin]
20:20:08 [hhalpin]
We should have a page that lists implemenations per spec
20:20:14 [hhalpin]
Given that we have soooo many specs right now
20:20:17 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: the purpose of this document status was leading up to this meeting, it's value goes down now we're at the meeting. We cna just talk about it
20:20:26 [hhalpin]
The rest of the material on the page is busywork
20:20:34 [hhalpin]
However, the list of implementations is super-important for CR exit
20:20:48 [hhalpin]
20:20:49 [rhiaro]
sandro: I find this useful to see status of documents, I don't mind where
20:20:50 [hhalpin]
20:20:54 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: what status do you mean?
20:21:01 [tantek]
if you're editing a draft, please update with a link to your Issues page
20:21:01 [hhalpin]
(just to repeat what I said above)
20:21:03 [rhiaro]
... WD or other major ones, what are they?
20:21:38 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: let's take 10 minutes per draft and takl about next steps
20:21:39 [hhalpin]
20:21:56 [rhiaro]
... For editors can say what they're doing, and people with experience of rec process can say what we're shooting for next
20:22:19 [aaronpk]
just added links to issues for webmention and micropub
20:22:26 [rhiaro]
sandro: the output of this conversaiton si not documented anywhere besides the minutes
20:22:31 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: could we put this in github?
20:22:34 [rhiaro]
sandro: see what they are first?
20:23:03 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: start with AS2
20:23:07 [rhiaro]
TOPIC: AS2 status report
20:23:21 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: Big next steps are test suite, conformance section, and closing recent issues
20:23:27 [rhiaro]
... In december we were almost all closed but now we have more
20:23:51 [rhiaro]
... But we are going to try to close those tomorrow morning
20:24:03 [rhiaro]
... Hopefully we can close them quickly, most will have editor's recommendation for next steps
20:24:13 [rhiaro]
... Unless there's strong debate we can probably move fast. Not that I'm discouraging debate.
20:24:59 [rhiaro]
... At which point it's possible we could vote to transition to CR in this meeting
20:25:04 [rhiaro]
... Then we would publish a new updated version based on the decisions that are made tomorrow morning
20:25:12 [rhiaro]
... one last editorial pass, then have something ready to go to cr
20:25:30 [rhiaro]
... If the group says we do x, implementors implement x, and we probably on't need another vote
20:25:40 [rhiaro]
... Or we could do editorial and then a round of review
20:25:50 [rhiaro]
... Or we say the editorial is implementing what we decided and we can go to CR
20:25:52 [sandro]
20:25:53 [rhiaro]
... That might be a decision to make tomorrow
20:26:04 [eprodrom_]
20:26:09 [eprodrom_]
ack tantek
20:26:17 [rhiaro]
tantek: How many implementations do we have of current activitystreams drafts?
20:26:29 [rhiaro]
cwebber2: one in activipy and half in the guile one
20:26:43 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: I was just making a list on the activitystreams implementation page and I count 4.5
20:26:57 [rhiaro]
... java, javascript, activipy, validator which okay that's cheating, and..
20:26:59 [rhiaro]
tantek: why is it cheating?
20:27:08 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: is it an implementation or an implementation tool?
20:27:11 [rhiaro]
tantek: implementation
20:27:14 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: then we're at 4.5
20:27:36 [eprodrom_]
20:28:21 [eprodrom_]
20:28:33 [eprodrom_]
q+ rhiaro
20:28:37 [eprodrom_]
ack eprodrom_
20:29:13 [rhiaro]
hhalpin: helpful to have a big page with all implementations
20:29:21 [eprodrom_]
20:29:25 [rhiaro]
... with implementations that are either conformant or planning to be
20:29:29 [rhiaro]
20:29:33 [eprodrom_]
ack hhalpin
20:29:39 [tantek]
20:29:49 [eprodrom_]
rhiaro: oh, now I feel like a jerk
20:29:50 [cwebber2]
eprodrom, added!
20:30:02 [Loqi]
Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]]
20:30:03 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: doesn't matter, will ask later :)
20:30:03 [Loqi]
Eprodrom made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/DocumentStatus]]
20:30:04 [Loqi]
Sandro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]]
20:30:07 [eprodrom_]
20:30:11 [eprodrom_]
ack sandro
20:30:49 [sandro]
20:30:50 [rhiaro]
sandro: As we get to having the validator on the test suite for something like as2 it would be nice to see the implementations look more like this (matrix with tests and validations), for each document does it pass it, and results
20:30:51 [sandro]
as example
20:31:16 [rhiaro]
... A list is nice early, but by the time we have a test suite we should have more detail about conformance
20:31:17 [tantek]
20:31:23 [rhiaro]
... And then what's the process for getting peopel to give us results
20:31:46 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: for pumpio I could maybe take links for kinds of feeds on a pumpio site and link to each of those and say if they validate
20:31:52 [rhiaro]
... these are the kinds of feeds that we generate
20:32:02 [rhiaro]
sandro: I guess actually what I want is depending on the feature granularity
20:32:08 [rhiaro]
... is there a feed from that implementation that uses that feature
20:32:33 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: we need to move our implementation pages from we implement this to implementation reports
20:32:39 [rhiaro]
sandro: we could borrow something from other groups or roll our own
20:32:52 [rhiaro]
... An action item on someone who's willing to do it?
20:33:06 [rhiaro]
tantek: until we have a test suite we don't need this. First step, make a test suite
20:33:12 [rhiaro]
sandro: needs to be soon though
20:33:21 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: test reports to exit cr
20:33:26 [rhiaro]
tantek: which implementations are testable?
20:33:30 [rhiaro]
... a library is not really testable
20:33:38 [rhiaro]
... no working group I know of has used a library to exit cr
20:33:51 [rhiaro]
... not an implementation for any workign group I've been involved in
20:33:51 [shevski]
20:33:54 [hhalpin]
20:34:01 [rhiaro]
sandro: don't do universal generalisations
20:34:10 [eprodrom_]
sandro: B-)
20:34:19 [rhiaro]
shevski: what are the formal requirements for w3c implementation report?
20:34:26 [rhiaro]
... I'm interested in demonstrating genuine adoption
20:34:28 [tantek]
/me sandro isn't that a universal generalization? ;)
20:34:38 [rhiaro]
... I don't think something should become a standard if only 3 people care about it
20:34:56 [rhiaro]
... If we have 5 different things we need to start talking to peopel and lining up implementations or maybe there is already 100s of peopel and companies using it
20:34:59 [sandro]
20:35:00 [rhiaro]
... Things in the wild
20:35:02 [sandro]
20:35:07 [hhalpin]
I would suggest adding an estimate on the number of users per implementation.
20:35:07 [tantek]
ack shevski
20:35:25 [rhiaro]
... Stuff people can be interested in, like mooncake which thoughtworks built which displays activitystreams from varous sources, they have demos, good to list user friendly things so people can see what it looks like
20:35:35 [rhiaro]
... so if people are looking at as2 and deciding, they can see if they want to use it
20:35:36 [cwebber2]
hhalpin, did mooncake use the java library of AS2 or have its own
20:35:38 [tantek]
20:35:43 [cwebber2]
hhalpin, is that another implementation?
20:35:58 [hhalpin]
I think they re-coded it using Clojure
20:36:03 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: if we look at previous implementations for as2 that's definitely an outreach process and we do have a little bit of a psychological advantage to ahving 2.0, we can ask people when they're going to upgrade
20:36:06 [hhalpin]
So you *may* have another implementation there.
20:36:08 [rhiaro]
... 'why are you using the old version'?
20:36:13 [rhiaro]
... good pressure with a version number
20:36:17 [rhiaro]
... but that is a contact process
20:36:22 [tantek]
q+ to comment on we need to start talking to people and lining up implementations or maybe there is already 100s of people and companies using it
20:36:23 [rhiaro]
... and that might be a next step is to be reaching out
20:36:33 [rhiaro]
shevski: whose responsibility is it to do that? Editors for each draft?
20:36:33 [hhalpin]
That being said, I'm not sure if they have any users per se. There was supposed to be 3 pilots: Iceland, Finland, Spain - I think Finland is interested.
20:36:46 [rhiaro]
sandro: we're not there yet
20:36:55 [rhiaro]
shevski: but for initial implementaton report?
20:37:00 [rhiaro]
tantek: that's produced *during* CR
20:37:04 [hhalpin]
Email Jaako Korhonon re Finland and Natalie from Thoughtworks via Clojure details, I've been removed by W3C/ERCIM from D-CENT for almost a year so not tracking :)
20:37:17 [eprodrom_]
20:37:21 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: definitely a snowball effect of seeing implementations listed
20:37:23 [eprodrom_]
ack hhalpin
20:38:03 [bengo]
bengo has joined #social
20:38:11 [rhiaro]
hhalpin: think it would be useful.. we don't test how many users something has.. assume it has users, not ask how many. That being said, users are good. Even though it's not formally part of the process should be something the wg takes into account
20:38:26 [rhiaro]
... So eg. per library list code bases that use it
20:38:39 [rhiaro]
... Keep track of how many users each implementation has
20:38:44 [eprodrom_]
20:38:50 [eprodrom_]
ack sandro
20:38:52 [rhiaro]
... Would help for people looking in from outside to see what the state of play is
20:38:53 [sandro] and
20:39:06 [rhiaro]
sandro: Looking at two other implementation reports. I don't think we shoudl worry about w3c, but what the users want
20:39:10 [rhiaro]
... see ^
20:39:15 [hhalpin]
Yes, but caniuse doesn't measure "users" :)
20:39:21 [hhalpin]
We assume all these browsers have users.
20:39:24 [hhalpin]
Its harder in this case
20:39:30 [rhiaro]
... Tells users what they can use to get to use as2
20:39:38 [wilkie]
doesn't it measure browser market share?
20:39:39 [rhiaro]
... if it's good enough for users it's good enough for w3c
20:39:39 [hhalpin]
Still, adding guess user numbers helps
20:39:42 [rhiaro]
... but it's a lot of work
20:39:46 [eprodrom_]
20:39:57 [rhiaro]
... that includes covering extensions in theory, that's where it really starts to pay off
20:40:01 [eprodrom_]
ack tantek
20:40:01 [Zakim]
tantek, you wanted to comment on we need to start talking to people and lining up implementations or maybe there is already 100s of people and companies using it
20:40:03 [Loqi]
Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]]
20:40:08 [rhiaro]
... how many consumers consume this extension so should I produce it
20:40:16 [hhalpin]
So, in theory in some of the SemWeb space (GRDDL comes to mind) I've seen stuff with users numbering in less than a dozen go to Rec, but I think W3C is discouraging that kind of thing.
20:40:19 [rhiaro]
tantek: I agree that listing things that are accesible to users is a good thing
20:40:28 [rhiaro]
... Good to list user friendly things so people can see what it looks like, as shevski said
20:41:02 [rhiaro]
... Before we ask anyone outside this WG to implement something, I would like to see implementations by people in this wg
20:41:08 [hhalpin]
Typically a WG converges, then we do a call for implementations. Its a bit odd to do a call for implementation without some convergence!
20:41:11 [rhiaro]
... For each draft, at least one. I think we're close to that
20:41:33 [rhiaro]
... I would hope we have an implementation from the group we can point to
20:41:40 [rhiaro]
sandro: I would hope the editors would have some implementation
20:41:47 [eprodrom_]
20:42:08 [rhiaro]
cwebber2: and also with actual code
20:42:55 [rhiaro]
shevski: so people can see 'that is the kind of thing I want in my app, I will use this spec'
20:43:03 [rhiaro]
... so get a sense of something working
20:43:57 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: implementation and advocacy is going to become a very big issue before we go to cr
20:44:06 [rhiaro]
... right now we're collecting lists, next step is to collect test results as well as outreach
20:44:07 [ben_thatmustbeme]
20:44:12 [rhiaro]
... may be something we should start in the next few weeks
20:44:18 [rhiaro]
... but post CR, does that sound fair?
20:44:38 [rhiaro]
tantek: what do we need to take things to CR, then once we're in CR what do we need to do to exit?
20:44:43 [rhiaro]
... A test report is not required to enter CR
20:44:51 [rhiaro]
... For implementations,t hat's up to the wg to decide
20:45:07 [rhiaro]
... how much implementation verification do we want internally before we are comfortable taking something to cr
20:45:29 [rhiaro]
... we have a few implementations including a validator that anyone can try. We can make some claim like the validator implements 90% of AS2
20:45:38 [rhiaro]
... Then we can tell people that when we enter CR, to help encourage more
20:45:45 [rhiaro]
... Hopefully an example for those spec to follow
20:46:05 [rhiaro]
... If we have implementations from editors, 90%, 50% of the spec, that is useful to include as part of going to CR
20:46:07 [eprodrom_]
20:46:23 [rhiaro]
TOPIC: Social web protocls
20:47:23 [bengo]
20:47:27 [bengo]
I can hear sounds but not really Amy
20:49:07 [rhiaro]
<rhiaro> Needs catching up with current state of specs it talks about
20:49:14 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: what's our intention with publication?
20:49:17 [rhiaro]
<rhiaro> Note is fine
20:49:22 [rhiaro]
sandro: remaining flexible depending on contents
20:49:32 [rhiaro]
shevski: seems like a primer
20:49:42 [hhalpin]
20:50:02 [Loqi]
Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]]
20:50:29 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: we're shooting for another version in early april and will iterate on a regular basis over the coming months
20:50:39 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: .. Webmention
20:50:49 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: A few more issues that I wasn't able to close myself, would like to go through those tomorrow
20:51:06 [rhiaro]
... With those resolved I feel like things are stable enough that there are no major blocking issues and plenty of implementations..
20:51:09 [rhiaro]
tantek: how many?
20:51:24 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: there's a list on the document. dozens? There are two roles, sending and receiving. I believe it's dozens of each
20:51:28 [rhiaro]
... it is documented in the spec
20:51:33 [rhiaro]
... enough where I feel like things are working fine
20:51:59 [rhiaro]
... The next thing I want to do is work on a test suite so there are tools for peopel to test their implementations on both sides
20:52:03 [rhiaro]
... interactive validators basically
20:52:09 [rhiaro]
... a lot already exists as small utilities
20:52:22 [rhiaro]
sandro: the small utitlities haven' treally poked the edge cases right?
20:52:27 [rhiaro]
... like where the endpoint is discovered?a
20:52:52 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: some test for xss for example, so they'll send you a webmention with a script hyou should be filtering out. kind of adjacent to the spec itself as the spec doesn't say you have to show a comment on a post
20:53:00 [rhiaro]
tantek: do you have a privacy and security section?
20:53:03 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: minimal, could be expanded
20:53:20 [rhiaro]
tantek: could expand to answer the privacy and security questionnaire from the TAG
20:53:25 [rhiaro]
... currently optional part of specs
20:53:45 [rhiaro]
... AB and TAG are gathering experience with it, but if you're not sure what to say about security and privacy this is one way of expanding
20:53:53 [ben_thatmustbeme]
20:54:05 [ben_thatmustbeme]
i'm guessing its that aaronpk
20:54:17 [rhiaro]
dmitriz: From what I remember from AS2 and AP specs the security and privacy ocnsiderations sections used language with 'must provide x level of privacy' and so on: how is that testable?
20:54:22 [rhiaro]
... how can we enforce that?
20:54:34 [hhalpin]
20:55:07 [rhiaro]
tantek: how that plays into conformance requirements is a separate qusetion
20:55:11 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: probably unenforceable
20:55:17 [rhiaro]
... very difficult to test whether someone has considered something
20:55:22 [rhiaro]
hhalpin: testing privacy is hard
20:55:37 [rhiaro]
... there are ways, but they're not part of w3c test suite or well understood, basically research projects, maybe in the future
20:55:45 [rhiaro]
... obvious things like breaks same origin policiy we can note that
20:56:03 [rhiaro]
... Point on social web protocols.. seems like we're not going to converge... If we don't converge and we have this document saying there are 3 things
20:56:13 [rhiaro]
... And if someone has the spare time to shim between these formats
20:56:45 [rhiaro]
... if such a shim existed that would make SWP more useful
20:56:52 [rhiaro]
<rhiaro> some parts are easy to shim, some overlap completely, some not
20:57:03 [rhiaro]
Karli: would be desireable to have an overlap
20:57:15 [rhiaro]
... instead of trying to solve it like a failed attempt with a library
20:57:31 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: there are some formulations we could use to define it. It's an interesting question but I want to bring us back to document status
20:57:52 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: Beyond testing, I would like to know what is then expected of me as the editor or us as the group to move forward
20:58:04 [hhalpin]
20:58:05 [rhiaro]
... Reading the w3c process documents is overwhelming, so what is the human readable version of the next step?
20:58:11 [hhalpin]
ack hhalpin
20:58:19 [hhalpin]
Note that Test the Web Forward stuff doesn't apply here
20:58:25 [rhiaro]
... Assuming we close issues and build a test suite, what's left?
20:58:36 [hhalpin]
But basically, the Process Doc is pretty easily explained and its legal to publish different documents.
20:58:37 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: then we have the decision of whether we're going to publish one, two or some convergence
20:58:42 [hhalpin]
As long as they can all fulfill CR
20:58:53 [hhalpin]
That being said, it would obviously be more desirable to have a convergence
20:58:56 [rhiaro]
... We resolved to move them all forward with no dependencies
20:59:08 [rhiaro]
tantek: we should ask the same things as as2 of every other draft
20:59:16 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: test suite, conformance section
20:59:20 [rhiaro]
tantek: just want to be consistent
20:59:25 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: conformance is already in there
20:59:32 [rhiaro]
... oh no, micropub has it, not webmention
20:59:36 [rhiaro]
... okay, will do that
20:59:39 [eprodrom_]
20:59:43 [nicolagreco]
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20:59:55 [rhiaro]
... if it applies to every spec can we put this list somewhere?
21:00:23 [sandro]
21:02:09 [rhiaro]
sandro: webmention is simple enough we can say 2 complete senders and 2 complete receivers
21:02:44 [rhiaro]
sandro: exit criteria is 2 implementations of each feature
21:02:45 [Karli]
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21:02:58 [rhiaro]
tantek: define what 'feature' means
21:03:58 [rhiaro]
... sandro said sending and receiving are features, but you said features break downmore
21:04:05 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: features like updates and deletes
21:04:17 [rhiaro]
... existing implementations are various overlapping subsets
21:04:33 [rhiaro]
TOPIC: Activitypub
21:04:53 [rhiaro]
cwebber2: I dont' know if we need to leave owen on there, should we remove him because he's not a current editor?
21:04:59 [rhiaro]
sandro: make him an author or former editor
21:05:19 [rhiaro]
cwebber2: we can do that
21:05:41 [rhiaro]
... In terms of things that are next, we have a list of actionable bugs
21:05:46 [rhiaro]
... Might be useful to use some call time
21:05:51 [rhiaro]
... Some I've been stuck
21:05:55 [rhiaro]
... Issues are slow
21:06:02 [rhiaro]
... Easier to go through on a call
21:06:12 [rhiaro]
... I think we'll make a lot of changes
21:06:16 [rhiaro]
... I'd also like to work on implementations
21:06:24 [rhiaro]
... So we can test the federation stuff works the way that we expect it to
21:06:31 [rhiaro]
... Media goblin is a good option
21:06:42 [rhiaro]
... Maybe somebody in the pumpio community will jump on it
21:06:55 [rhiaro]
... Possibly something smaller
21:06:58 [eprodrom_] !!!!!!!!!!!
21:07:06 [rhiaro]
... Bugs, then implementations, then the whole conversation about conformance
21:07:11 [eprodrom_]
"1.1.0 initial AS2 feed (beta)"
21:07:12 [rhiaro]
... I probably will need guidence
21:07:27 [rhiaro]
... As for worrying about the test suite, I'd like to do that after the implementations are at a certain stage, so we know what we're testing
21:07:48 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom_ cool!
21:08:03 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: work on bugs, do a new version, get review, then start talking about test suite?
21:08:09 [rhiaro]
cwebber2: I'd like to see implementations before test suite
21:08:27 [rhiaro]
... I don't think test driven makes sense for standards, when you don't know what you're pushing forward
21:08:39 [cwebber2]
- close actionable bugs
21:08:47 [cwebber2]
- work on implmentations (1 or ideally 2)
21:08:57 [cwebber2]
- conformance section and security considerations
21:09:00 [cwebber2]
- test suite
21:09:11 [KevinMarks]
surely you will write tests as you write implementations; the question is if you can generalize them
21:09:59 [cwebber2]
KevinMarks, quite probably, you probably heard what I just said :)
21:10:03 [Loqi]
Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]]
21:10:08 [cwebber2]
- and exit cr in between the last two
21:10:19 [rhiaro]
cwebber2: having a mniinmal implementation that includes tests would be good
21:11:00 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: date for next version of ap?
21:11:06 [rhiaro]
... may?
21:11:12 [rhiaro]
cwebber2: ...sure, mid-may
21:12:02 [rhiaro]
TOPIC: Micropub
21:12:30 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: Add privacy and security section
21:12:33 [rhiaro]
... conformance is already there
21:12:39 [rhiaro]
... make a plan for building test suites
21:12:42 [rhiaro]
... That doesn't go in the spec right?
21:12:45 [rhiaro]
tantek: yeah
21:12:55 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: CR exit criteria
21:13:12 [rhiaro]
... And several combinations of things in micropub spec, multiple kinds of server and client implementations
21:13:33 [rhiaro]
... A server or a client does not have to support all features, so there are many different kinds of valid implementations
21:13:44 [rhiaro]
... Would like to publish another update of this before asking for it to go to cr
21:14:15 [rhiaro]
tantek: Also for all, identify what you consider at risk
21:14:17 [cwebber2]
rhiaro, cool
21:14:29 [rhiaro]
... Once you have figured out what the features are, among that set of features decide if there are any that you consider at risk
21:14:46 [rhiaro]
... If you think it's too new or you're not confident in it, label any of them (preferably not all) at risk and let the wg know
21:15:20 [rhiaro]
... people in wg, if you object to a feature file issues or ask for it to be put at risk. Or if you think a feature is essential you can argue against putting at risk
21:15:30 [rhiaro]
... Editors can say what you consider at risk and why
21:15:38 [rhiaro]
... Or you can say none ofthem are at risk
21:15:42 [snarfed]
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21:16:22 [rhiaro]
... The effect on the process is that if you get to the end of the cr period you can drop at risk features without having to publish another draft
21:17:01 [Arnaud]
I agree with Tantek, At Risk is a powerful mechanism but I would invite anyone to make suggestions/requests
21:17:21 [Arnaud]
this is not limited to editors
21:17:32 [eprodrom_]
21:17:59 [rhiaro]
TOPIC: post type discovery
21:18:11 [rhiaro]
s/TOPIC: post type discovery/
21:18:26 [rhiaro]
tantek: when can we expect a new draft of micropub?
21:18:32 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: both of them by april 8th at the latest, hopefully earlier
21:18:57 [rhiaro]
tantek: if you dont' meet all requirements for cr, you can still publish another wd immediately
21:19:02 [rhiaro]
... for all drafts
21:19:07 [rhiaro]
... if you're resolved issues
21:19:10 [rhiaro]
... close to 0
21:19:29 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: in that case I will propose to publish a new draft on the 29
21:19:34 [rhiaro]
on the next call
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21:20:08 [rhiaro]
cwebber2: issue closing party
21:20:16 [rhiaro]
TOPIC: post type discovery
21:20:28 [rhiaro]
tantek: I have had issues finding the time to convert that into the proper format to publish so I need help
21:20:45 [rhiaro]
... I don't have a godo workflow for editing that draft on the wiki then turning that into a form that I can publish on w3c
21:20:57 [rhiaro]
annbass: what's involved with converting it?
21:21:09 [rhiaro]
tantek: if you use respec it expects a certain syntax
21:21:17 [rhiaro]
... which is not mediawiki
21:21:24 [eprodrom_]
21:21:41 [rhiaro]
... so either I have to manuall convert it every time, or convert it once and keep it in sync, or give up on the wiki and just use github
21:21:49 [rhiaro]
tantek: I was hoping I could pipe the wiki page into the publication process and have it work
21:22:02 [rhiaro]
hhaplin: when people have edited specs in wikis in the past... it's possible..
21:22:14 [rhiaro]
... you just have to put effort in to convert, but it's a lot of work
21:23:16 [rhiaro]
tantek: I could iterate on issues and close them next
21:23:20 [rhiaro]
... in editors draft
21:23:27 [rhiaro]
... would be pgoress before trying to do conversion
21:23:37 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: and what form would help take?
21:23:56 [rhiaro]
... you want a coeditor, or general participation in wiki editing?
21:24:05 [rhiaro]
tantek: looking for suggestions in conversion process
21:24:13 [rhiaro]
... wiki is good for iterating, but not for publishing
21:24:25 [rhiaro]
... Open for suggestions
21:24:35 [rhiaro]
... If I have to convert to respec in github then fine, but I'm looking for suggestions
21:25:07 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: any other questions?
21:25:30 [rhiaro]
... If not, we are at the end of our agenda. Pretty impressed.
21:25:39 [rhiaro]
tantek: worth spending a couple of minutes on bringing up other docs we had as editors drafts
21:25:57 [tantek]
21:26:52 [rhiaro]
... Action Handles
21:26:55 [rhiaro]
... Handlers
21:26:59 [rhiaro]
... was separated from as2
21:27:02 [rhiaro]
... only broken links
21:27:04 [KevinMarks]
Action handlers is a broken link
21:27:04 [trackbot]
Error finding 'handlers'. You can review and register nicknames at <>.
21:27:51 [rhiaro]
... Not sure what happened to it. I think we have enough work, so we drop this as a work item?
21:28:06 [rhiaro]
... Not to say we ban it, but fo rnow we admit that nobody is actively working on it
21:28:13 [rhiaro]
... If someone wants to bring it back they can do that in the future
21:28:20 [rhiaro]
... But for now we can move it from the list of drafts
21:28:26 [rhiaro]
... jasnell is not here so I want to give him a week to pipe up
21:28:27 [Arnaud]
It's ok
21:28:40 [Arnaud]
jasnell won't oppose this motion
21:28:46 [rhiaro]
cwebber2: we should put it on the table and mail the list
21:28:58 [rhiaro]
ben_thatmust: we can resolve to remove it and bring up objections in the next telecon
21:29:12 [cwebber2]
ah well then Arnaud :)
21:29:14 [cwebber2]
21:29:52 [tantek]
PROPOSED: Drop Action Handlers Editor's Draft from our list of working group drafts, without prejudice
21:29:55 [wilkie]
21:30:10 [cwebber2]
21:30:10 [bengo]
21:30:12 [aaronpk]
21:30:18 [ben_thatmustbeme]
21:30:19 [eprodrom_]
21:30:24 [sandro]
21:30:29 [rhiaro]
21:30:32 [KevinMarks]
21:30:41 [annbass]
/me I like the "without prejudice" bit
21:30:54 [dmitriz]
21:31:00 [tsyesika]
21:31:17 [tantek]
RESOLVED: Drop Action Handlers Editor's Draft from our list of working group drafts, without prejudice
21:31:38 [rhiaro]
tantek: the other one is jf2
21:31:52 [rhiaro]
ben_thatmust: I have not had much time due to personal small people reasons to work on this
21:32:12 [rhiaro]
... I certainly would like to see something of this go to a note, because I think it's been useful and it's standardising several implementations that are using json formats of microformats
21:32:20 [rhiaro]
... but I don't have the time to push that toward a rec
21:32:31 [rhiaro]
sandro: is it dependant on microformats?
21:32:31 [tantek]
21:33:00 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: I have found it useful for dealing with apis and services that use micropub and webmention, it sort of sits in th emiddle of everything and is used by both of thise, but I don't need to normatively refernece it as a spec, but ti has been useful in building implementations
21:33:12 [rhiaro]
... that's how I have some iterations of the document that I have been taling to ben about but haven't been updated or anything
21:33:16 [rhiaro]
... but it's been useful
21:33:21 [rhiaro]
... but I don't need to tie the specs to it
21:33:27 [rhiaro]
... I could if it was there, but
21:33:37 [rhiaro]
tantek: what do you need to do as editor to produce a working draft towards a note?
21:33:39 [Arnaud]
sorry, I've got to go - see you
21:33:40 [rhiaro]
ben_thatmust: I don't know
21:33:46 [rhiaro]
... definitely needs editorial changes
21:34:15 [rhiaro]
... it's difficult because I'm definining the spec without the vocabulary. Trying to say was written with microformats in mind but you could apply any vocab to it
21:34:22 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: the more useful parts I"ve found are tied to the vocabulary
21:34:23 [KevinMarks]
microformats2 parsing doesn't define a vocabulary either
21:34:41 [rhiaro]
... Using as this is the one way to represent a blog post or an author with the microformats vocabulary
21:34:58 [rhiaro]
... Useful to me whether or not it's a spec
21:34:58 [KevinMarks]
I did a generic mf2 to jf2 converter
21:35:30 [rhiaro]
tantek: if you want to take it to note we can make this intention clear up front
21:35:34 [rhiaro]
... so we can plan for that as a group
21:36:03 [rhiaro]
... non rec track draft
21:36:14 [rhiaro]
... When do you think it will be in good enough shape to publish as a non rec track draft
21:36:22 [rhiaro]
ben_thatmustbeme: I need some time to work on it
21:36:36 [rhiaro]
... Can say... april
21:36:54 [eprodrom_]
sandro: So, there's a WordPress plugin that implements AS2
21:37:50 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: time to wrap up. Any other agenda items that we need to address before the end of the day?
21:37:53 [sandro]
dinner is 6:15
21:38:12 [aaronpk]
21:38:14 [Loqi]
sandro has 30 karma
21:38:54 [sandro]
(dinner isn't sponsored)
21:39:07 [rhiaro]
... Agenda for tomorrow
21:39:11 [aaronpk]
21:39:32 [rhiaro]
... tomorrow afternoon, can go through issues that editors want to bring to the group
21:39:56 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: I do have issues on wm and mp that I would like to discuss
21:40:03 [Loqi]
Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]]
21:40:04 [rhiaro]
... Not many, like 2 on mp 4 on wm
21:40:33 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: I'll update agenda
21:42:16 [rhiaro]
... FIN
21:42:45 [KevinMarks]
St Patricks Day in Boston?
21:42:52 [KevinMarks]
I would think so
21:44:23 [bengo]
night yall enjoy dinner
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Eprodrom made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]]
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13:48:25 [eprodrom_]
I'm running late; there by 10:15.
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13:56:32 [tantek]
good morning #social - my ETA this morning is 10:05ish. If y'all are ready to go, have eprodrom get us started!
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Rhiaro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]]
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14:14:44 [tantek]
14:14:50 [tantek]
14:15:45 [tantek]
trackbot, start meeting
14:15:47 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
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14:15:49 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be SOCL
14:15:49 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
14:15:50 [trackbot]
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
14:15:50 [trackbot]
Date: 17 March 2016
14:15:55 [tantek]
scribe: wilkie
14:16:01 [tantek]
14:16:05 [wilkie]
14:16:09 [dmitriz]
14:16:10 [rhiaro]
14:16:11 [tantek]
chair: tantek
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14:16:11 [aaronpk]
14:16:17 [shevski]
14:16:19 [ben_thatmustbeme]
14:16:37 [cwebber2]
14:16:47 [tsyesika]
14:17:12 [sandro]
14:18:45 [wilkie]
tantek: if nobody thinks of any other agenda items, this is all for today. which seems reasonable
14:18:52 [wilkie]
tantek: how many issues do things have?
14:19:01 [wilkie]
aaronpk: 4
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14:19:06 [wilkie]
sandro: and micropub?
14:19:18 [wilkie]
aaronpk: no issues that need discussion. just a couple of pull requests.
14:20:02 [Loqi]
Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]]
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14:26:34 [wilkie]
annbass: I have a comment. The socialwg interest group has always been considering what it is they are do. it is still an open question if we need such a group.
14:27:42 [wilkie]
annbass: I think this should still be a community effort. I've met and talked to Syrian people who were caught and tortured and I've asked them what they use for social tools and communication and they say "whatever we can find"
14:27:58 [wilkie]
... so I do think there are use cases we aren't aware of.
14:28:05 [wilkie]
tantek: do you want some time to talk about that?
14:28:06 [dmitriz]
@rhiaro - there is an issue open for what you mentioned, in fact,
14:28:11 [wilkie]
annbass: yes.
14:28:19 [ben_thatmustbeme]
present+ Karli
14:28:28 [ben_thatmustbeme]
present+ AnnBass
14:29:18 [wilkie]
annbass: our interest in the consortium is to make a good place to work and so I would like some feedback, public or private, about the w3c and what could improve.
14:29:28 [wilkie]
annbass: the challenges haven't been where I thought they would be
14:29:31 [wilkie]
tantek: such as?
14:29:46 [wilkie]
annbass: you would think about diversity and such but the problems have been mainly technical
14:29:59 [wilkie]
tantek: and some social interactions
14:30:02 [Loqi]
Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]]
14:30:09 [wilkie]
annbass: yeah
14:30:29 [wilkie]
tantek: that's a problem that has made it up fairly far in the organization
14:30:39 [wilkie]
annbass: yeah, and how we can address that is something worth discussing
14:31:27 [wilkie]
tantek: yeah, there is what you could say is w3c's broad tolerance for different social behaviors.
14:31:53 [wilkie]
tantek: which are obstacles to technical discussion and finding solutions. so if we could find solutions to that.
14:32:37 [wilkie]
annbass: yeah, and certainly there are people who have a problem with this. such as women or quieter people who have a problem with people who are strongly argumentative and vocal.
14:33:01 [wilkie]
shevski: which is what tantek was saying. those people can be disruptive and at times bullies.
14:33:22 [wilkie]
shevski: the problem is when nothing happens to those people visibly, then people see that and say 'I don't want to be involved. this is not a safe space.'
14:33:40 [wilkie]
annbass: me too. I see that and I try and then I say "nah, I'm done"
14:33:45 [wilkie]
tantek: and you've seen that at the highest
14:34:01 [wilkie]
annbass: yeah. but we've all seen that. and what can we do.
14:34:07 [wilkie]
shevski: a code of conduct is what you do
14:34:15 [wilkie]
annbass: we have one
14:34:18 [wilkie]
tantek: it's a rather new thing
14:34:28 [wilkie]
annbass: no, it has been there for 10 years I think
14:34:48 [wilkie]
annbass: but also, what we have to do is maybe training
14:35:08 [wilkie]
Karli_: the problem with a code of conduct is that people may not see it or it isn't enforced and people don't respect it
14:35:30 [wilkie]
annbass: another thing is that people don't realize even if you call it out that they have done something wrong and correct for that
14:36:13 [annbass]
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14:36:20 [wilkie]
shevski: on the community group stuff. I like having /something/ is good.
14:36:53 [wilkie]
shevski: having something from the community about what they want is good. such as "I want quick communication among many devices" and there isn't that.
14:37:04 [wilkie]
tantek: *whispers* that's not social, those are machines
14:37:10 [eprodrom_]
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14:37:31 [wilkie]
shevski: but it is! I'm talking to people. through machines.
14:37:51 [wilkie]
tantek: [evan enters] photo time!
14:44:03 [wilkie]
14:44:27 [shevski]
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14:46:04 [eprodro99]
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14:46:21 [eprodrom_]
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14:46:23 [wilkie]
eprodrom: has everybody taken a look at the issues?
14:46:24 [eprodrom_]
14:46:25 [ben_thatmustbeme]
14:46:47 [wilkie]
eprodrom_: what I would like to do is work from oldest to newest and see what we can do to clarify those.
14:46:51 [eprodrom_]
14:47:04 [wilkie]
tantek: to be clear these are ones you think need discussion
14:47:26 [wilkie]
eprodrom_: these are ones that are open... let's say that of the ones we have there are 3 that are significant changes...
14:47:33 [wilkie]
tantek: want to go through the hardest ones first?
14:47:38 [eprodrom_]
14:47:41 [wilkie]
eprodrom_: maybe the easiest ones first?
14:47:48 [annbass]
s/I think this should still be a community effort./My suggestion is to move the IG to be a Community Group (CG), so that anyone in the world can participate, without being a W3C member or Invited Expert./
14:47:49 [wilkie]
tantek: ok
14:48:26 [eprodro58]
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14:48:33 [wilkie]
eprodrom_: 249. so, some of the examples don't have the properties described in the text. james is +1, I'm +1. so there isn't a problem with this.
14:48:55 [wilkie]
tantek: if you and the other editors think something is editorial then we don't need to look at it. we trust your judgment.
14:49:06 [tantek]
14:49:15 [tantek]
14:49:45 [wilkie]
eprodrom_: for the CR exit issues. we need explicit exit criteria (279), a list of separate features (280)
14:49:47 [tantek]
14:50:06 [annbass]
s/I've met and talked to Syrian people who were caught and tortured and I've asked them what they use for social tools and communication and they say "whatever we can find"/I suggest the main goal of the CG might be to collect additional social use cases that we haven't thought of, especially from people who haven't participated before, or who are from cultural environments we personally haven't experienced./
14:50:16 [wilkie]
eprodrom_: let's just say that when these are resolved and assuming the editorial issues are solved, we're good
14:50:41 [wilkie]
tantek: these are not editorial. the conformance clause is certainly normative. the separate features may be editorial but might not so you may still want group review.
14:51:06 [wilkie]
tantek: but the group has reviewed the conformance clause and said it looks good. so anything that has been reviewed can just be dropped in.
14:51:15 [wilkie]
tantek: so there is really only one thing left to review
14:51:21 [eprodrom_]
14:51:32 [annbass]
s/our interest in the consortium/Also, I am now co-chairing the W3C Positive Work Environment Task Force (PWET) with Amy van der Hiel. Our interest in the consortium/
14:52:14 [wilkie]
eprodrom_: the issue is we don't have a good vocabularity around relationships
14:52:24 [eprodrom_]
14:52:29 [annbass]
s/yeah, and how/how/
14:52:32 [wilkie]
eprodrom_: in the specification, we said there should be an external vocabulary for this
14:52:38 [eprodrom_]
14:52:48 [wilkie]
eprodrom_: we don't refer to one but we talk about one
14:52:55 [wilkie]
dmitriz: you show it in the examples
14:53:34 [cwebber2]
14:53:38 [wilkie]
eprodrom_: right. if we defer this part of the specification to a TBD section about extensions, why don't we push the relationship stuff to a future extension
14:53:56 [wilkie]
eprodrom_: it makes sense to me
14:54:28 [annbass]
s/yeah. but we've all seen that. and what can we do./I'm not sure about that. But we've all seen it in various situations. What can we do to improve?/
14:54:43 [tantek]
14:54:45 [tantek]
ack cwebber2
14:54:49 [tantek]
ack cwebber
14:54:52 [wilkie]
eprodrom_: james has not had a chance to comment but I feel that there isn't a reason to wait for him. my opinion as an editor is that we should just push it to extension.
14:55:04 [eprodrom_]
s/has not/has/
14:55:19 [jasnell]
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14:55:34 [tantek]
+1 on dropping relationships from AS2 per comment in issue:
14:55:55 [wilkie]
cwebber2: it seems like maybe some verbs or vocab would be lost. do you know of any use-cases that may be lost by dropping this to an extension?
14:56:11 [wilkie]
eprodrom_: AS1 didn't even have relationships like this
14:56:38 [wilkie]
cwebber2: I'm +1 on this then. If people feel strongly about this as an extension then we can do that. it doesn't seem like a blocker for activity streams itself.
14:56:42 [annbass]
s/people don't realize even if you call it out /people don't realize THEY have behaved that way, even when you call it out; /
14:56:52 [wilkie]
cwebber2: just wanted to make sure we didn't drop something else as a consequence
14:57:23 [wilkie]
tantek: I would just propose the issue and see if anyone objects to the editor's proposal
14:57:28 [wilkie]
tantek: I don't hear any objections
14:57:34 [wilkie]
eprodrom_: ok I'll just mark that as group resolved
14:57:56 [eprodrom_]
14:58:03 [wilkie]
eprodrom_: next one is 290. it is around transitive activities.
14:58:33 [wilkie]
eprodrom_: the idea is to add one of the classes in vocab to core. james is fine with it. I'm fine with it. it is a reasonable thing to do.
14:58:48 [cwebber2]
sounds good to me
14:59:12 [wilkie]
eprodrom_: basically, transitive classes are an extended class and they are used often enough that it seems more useful in core.
14:59:21 [wilkie]
eprodrom_: any objections to that?
14:59:25 [wilkie]
eprodrom_: great
14:59:47 [wilkie]
eprodrom_: the last one [is 292] which is adding a deleted tag to objects
14:59:59 [eprodrom_]
15:00:20 [wilkie]
eprodrom_: the idea is to add a deleted timestamp to provide a tombstone for objects
15:00:40 [wilkie]
eprodrom_: so you can have an image and they say this image has been deleted
15:01:13 [wilkie]
cwebber2: this seems useful because you were already talking about 410 GONE and this would be useful certainly in activitypub and media goblin right away
15:01:26 [tantek]
aaronpk, didn't #indiewebcamp recently discuss a dt-deleted? what was the conclusion?
15:01:35 [wilkie]
eprodrom_: there are cases where you want to say this object is deleted but valid
15:01:38 [tantek]
(or at list citation to prior discussion)
15:01:48 [wilkie]
dmitriz: it can be as useful or not depending on your server's retention policy
15:02:09 [wilkie]
dmitriz: if you are the kind of server that commits to sending 410s whenever possible you want this, if not you may want to garbage collect and 404
15:02:21 [wilkie]
dmitriz: so this is an option for those servers with permanent retention policies
15:02:38 [wilkie]
cwebber2: it seems this doesn't require people to do it
15:02:38 [aaronpk]
q+ to point out privacy implications of sharing the deleted timestamp
15:03:07 [wilkie]
eprodrom_: we have seen this before and then we pushed it to an extension but seeing it come up again we consider adding it to the spec
15:03:13 [tantek]
ack aaronpk
15:03:13 [Zakim]
aaronpk, you wanted to point out privacy implications of sharing the deleted timestamp
15:03:15 [tantek]
15:03:31 [cwebber2]
15:03:45 [wilkie]
aaronpk: I think we should have a way to specify the deletion without the timestamp for when people want to delete but not disclose when
15:04:10 [wilkie]
cwebber2: since there is already the deleted flag
15:04:14 [wilkie]
aaronpk: what is the deleted flag
15:04:23 [dmitriz]
I think chris means the deleted timestamp?
15:04:41 [tantek]
per jasnell comment: "type": "Delete",
15:04:42 [wilkie]
cwebber2: the thing we are discussing. for instance we can send a 'delete' verb to servers and they might ask 'why is this gone' and people can do that but it is optional.
15:05:11 [wilkie]
eprodrom_: I think what aaronpk is saying is that it is good to have a delete property. but it being a timestamp there are privacy concerns.
15:05:16 [cwebber2]
15:05:17 [tantek]
15:05:21 [tantek]
ack cwebber
15:05:47 [wilkie]
eprodrom_: people want to delete things because they don't want them to be published and thus may not want it there
15:06:01 [wilkie]
dmitriz: you can place the timestamp date but not return the data and just 404
15:06:10 [wilkie]
aaronpk: but the problem is when you want to propagate that
15:06:19 [wilkie]
cwebber2: then you can have a timestamp or date
15:06:21 [wilkie]
aaronpk: that would solve it
15:06:35 [tantek]
How does Twitter notify deletes?
15:06:35 [cwebber2]
s/or date/or boolean/
15:06:35 [jasnell]
this is why for Atom we came up with the deleted-entry
15:06:41 [jasnell]
atom tombstones rfc
15:06:52 [jasnell]
15:06:53 [wilkie]
eprodrom_: and if that is good we can do that. the only problem is when implementations are only checking if it is truthy, but they will likely do that anyway.
15:07:18 [eprodrom_]
jasnell: so, deleted becomes a timestamp or boolean
15:07:20 [eprodrom_]
Sound OK?
15:07:45 [jasnell]
not sure I understand the privacy concerns around deleted being a date but ok
15:08:05 [wilkie]
tantek: I do think the timestamp is important especially for synchronization
15:08:25 [jasnell]
yes, having deleted as a timestamp is fairly critical for sync
15:09:02 [wilkie]
aaronpk: for the twitter api, the tweets generally come through as just the data on the tweets. there are some actions that come through for instance a scrub-geo action to remove location.
15:09:08 [wilkie]
tantek: so they are using keys as verbs sometimes
15:09:10 [wilkie]
aaronpk: yep
15:09:33 [wilkie]
tantek: what is the proposed solution?
15:09:52 [wilkie]
eprodrom_: to add a deleted property to the object and its range is either a timestamp or a boolean
15:10:08 [wilkie]
cwebber2: can I request we note that it is optional to handle cases where people prefer a 404
15:10:13 [jasnell]
eprodrom_: +1
15:10:26 [nicolagreco]
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15:10:50 [wilkie]
aaronpk: when there is a delete action in the stream, it should be required to have that flag to know it is deleted
15:10:51 [jasnell]
however, if deleted is a boolean, it should be noted that synchronization will be difficult
15:11:17 [jasnell]
it should also be noted that just because there's a deleted property in the object, it doesn't mean implementations have to delete the content
15:11:36 [wilkie]
aaronpk: I'm thinking when a system is pulling in a feed, how does it know to delete, so it needs to see that delete to know when to get rid of it
15:11:41 [wilkie]
cwebber2: there is a delete verb
15:12:03 [wilkie]
eprodrom_: cwebber2 is addressing the idea that there is a controversy between sending a 404 or 410
15:12:09 [wilkie]
aaronpk: that's pulling the individual object
15:12:10 [wilkie]
eprodrom_: yes
15:12:50 [jasnell]
also keep in mind... {"type": "Delete", "object": {"id": ""} work perfectly well for this too
15:12:57 [wilkie]
eprodrom_: if we don't have objections, I'm going to say this is our resolution
15:13:03 [jasnell]
without introducing a new property
15:13:11 [wilkie]
tantek: this is a new introduction
15:13:18 [wilkie]
eprodrom_: yeah, this is the first new property is a while
15:13:26 [wilkie]
tantek: would you consider marking it as at-risk?
15:13:46 [wilkie]
cwebber2: we could but we are going to use it immediately in media goblin
15:13:49 [ben_thatmustbeme]
q+ to say that jasnell's option may be better
15:13:56 [wilkie]
dmitriz: even though the field is optional
15:14:04 [wilkie]
tantek: that doesn't alter the fact that it is in the spec
15:14:22 [wilkie]
tantek: [to cwebber2] that is good to know. it is useful to know.
15:15:09 [eprodrom]
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15:15:23 [wilkie]
ben_thatmustbeme: jasnell says we can add a type "Delete"
15:15:30 [jasnell]
also, if you're going to go down the tombstone route, please make sure you take the additional security issues into consideration
15:15:30 [wilkie]
cwebber2: we already have a type "Delete"
15:15:39 [wilkie]
eprodrom: yeah, I think the idea there is that we have a "hole"
15:15:52 [wilkie]
cwebber2: you can still see the case where you have a Photo and you want that deleted
15:16:03 [ben_thatmustbeme]
15:16:08 [wilkie]
cwebber2: we could do this but it doesn't seem as interesting when the group came to some consensus around the property
15:16:24 [wilkie]
cwebber2: adding an object doesn't seem less tricky than adding the flag
15:16:45 [wilkie]
eprodrom: the reason I like this is say you have a naive implementation and it is looking at a collection of image objects.
15:16:58 [wilkie]
eprodrom: if it is not aware of tombstoning it may show an image that has been deleted. or its metadata.
15:17:14 [wilkie]
eprodrom: however if the type has changed, the tombstone will look foreign and it will skip it.
15:17:30 [wilkie]
eprodrom: basically, naive implementations will do the wrong thing with the flag
15:17:36 [jasnell]
please keep in mind that adding a tombstone does not compel anyone to actually delete anything
15:17:52 [wilkie]
dmitriz: the argument is essentially if somebody writes something and is wrong to the spec it will break
15:17:54 [jasnell]
if the content has been syndicated, the best you can do is distribute the *intent* for it to be deleted
15:18:06 [wilkie]
aaronpk: it is worth considering since doing it wrong leaks information
15:18:49 [wilkie]
tantek: it is good practice to assume partial implementations and decide if such a thing would do bad things for users
15:18:59 [wilkie]
dmitriz: so how does it work? it replaces the id?
15:19:07 [wilkie]
eprodrom: yes. it shares the id.
15:19:33 [wilkie]
dmitriz: is the worry about retrieving the collection? then it is up to the server to not send that deleted image.
15:19:47 [tantek]
what about undeleting?
15:19:48 [wilkie]
aaronpk: it is talking about synch. a server has already seen the image and now needs to remove it.
15:20:09 [wilkie]
cwebber2: tsyesika, how do we handle this?
15:20:21 [wilkie]
tsyesika: it is much like a tombstone. it is in a tombstone table and it is a field in that table.
15:20:27 [wilkie]
tantek: is there undeleting?
15:20:35 [wilkie]
cwebber2: there is an undelete verb but we don't handle that
15:20:46 [wilkie]
tantek: there seems to be an idea in social media: to delete and then undelete
15:21:15 [wilkie]
cwebber2: there is interest in undelete and undo actions but doesn't have bearing on this decision
15:21:32 [wilkie]
tantek: I'm just trying to see if the solution would be un-lossy for undeleting purposes
15:21:47 [wilkie]
cwebber2: I don't see how the structure of this would prevent the UI experience
15:21:53 [wilkie]
cwebber2: it seems more at the API or stream level
15:22:03 [jasnell]
this conversation is mixing two different things. (a) A server hosts it's own content, publishes at content at one point, then needs to indicate that it's been deleted. (b) A consumer has received content from someone and needs to be told that it's been deleted
15:22:18 [wilkie]
eprodrom: my experience is that deletion is something that gets implemented late and involves lots of bug squashing
15:22:40 [wilkie]
eprodrom: whereas every activity streams processor needs to handle types it doesn't recognize
15:23:04 [annbass]
s/solution would be un-lossy/solution would be lossy for privacy purposes, but un-lossy/
15:23:05 [wilkie]
dmitriz: do we say every consumer must ignore every type it doesn't recognize?
15:23:22 [jasnell]
for both, a {"type": "Delete", "object": ""} is sufficient. For (a) the thing being deleted simply goes away and a new activity is published indicating what happened to it. For (b) the new activity is a signal that it ought to get rid of the thing that was deleted.
15:23:28 [wilkie]
eprodrom: let's not call it type "Delete" but rather "Tombstone" that has a formertype
15:23:32 [wilkie]
cwebber2: former type flag?
15:23:36 [wilkie]
eprodrom: yeah if you really need that
15:23:41 [tantek]
15:23:42 [wilkie]
cwebber2: I'm more sold on this than I thought I would be
15:24:07 [wilkie]
cwebber2: in which case there is an optional field for the date. so two fields 'when' and 'formertype'
15:24:30 [jasnell]
for undelete, if you assign an ID to the delete activity, {"id": "">", "type": "Delete", "object": ""}, you can easily follow that up with a {"type": "Undo", "object": ""}
15:24:35 [wilkie]
tantek: maybe we give jasnell some time to reflect on this
15:24:44 [wilkie]
eprodrom: ok I'll take an action to review this with jasnell this afternoon
15:24:47 [cwebber2]
we would probrably want to call it whenRemoved
15:24:50 [cwebber2]
the type
15:24:51 [wilkie]
tantek: maybe that will cause it to converge a little bit more
15:24:55 [eprodrom_]
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15:25:05 [cwebber2]
mainly because properties can merge and "when" could appear unclear
15:25:15 [cwebber2]
between multiple type objects at least
15:25:24 [cwebber2]
and each property needs its own uri anyway
15:25:59 [wilkie]
tantek: how well does this mesh well with activity streams at large?
15:26:08 [tantek]
format vs protocol? overlap vs separation?
15:26:51 [wilkie]
eprodrom: the tombstone kind of blends in the noun or verb distinction
15:27:14 [wilkie]
tantek: many of these social web implementations have delete. I also like this tombstone approach.
15:27:27 [wilkie]
eprodrom: we have still a couple of questions
15:27:27 [eprodrom]
15:28:25 [wilkie]
eprodrom: name is a should not a must but it is not in many of our examples
15:28:48 [eprodrom]
15:28:56 [wilkie]
tantek: you could say the examples need to be fixed, or you could say the examples show that you don't need a name and should stay a SHOULD
15:28:57 [eprodrom]
Most of the "Activity"
15:29:32 [eprodrom]
"While all properties are optional (including the id and type), all Object instances SHOULD at least contain a name (or equivalent nameMap)."
15:29:33 [cwebber2]
15:29:47 [tantek]
ack cwebber
15:30:47 [wilkie]
cwebber2: I think SHOULD should be removed since we fold the title in to name and many don't have name. why should it be there if the biggest producer of AS doesn't have them.
15:31:04 [wilkie]
eprodrom: there are many objects that have a type but not a name. I think it should remain a SHOULD.
15:31:25 [wilkie]
aaronpk: if you are going to say things SHOULD have a name, I worry that people will just throw a name into things.
15:31:59 [eprodrom]
jasnell: for Activity and IntransitiveActivity types, does it makes sense to SHOULD a name?
15:32:02 [wilkie]
cwebber2: there are cases where you don't know exactly what to put for it.
15:32:46 [wilkie]
eprodrom: what I'd like to do is recommend we leave it as a SHOULD right now and get jasnell's feedback and follow up this afternoon
15:33:39 [wilkie]
tantek: when a SHOULD is good in a spec is when it is explicit about when it is used and when it is ok to not
15:33:48 [wilkie]
cwebber2: I think I would want to know the motivation for a SHOULD in the first place
15:34:04 [wilkie]
eprodrom: the idea is you could take a collection of objects and show them in a list
15:34:21 [wilkie]
tantek: it was required in Atom I think which is where it may be coming from
15:34:50 [wilkie]
eprodrom: how about we propose to explain the reasons for this being a SHOULD
15:34:51 [eprodrom]
PROPOSAL: explain the reasons for this being a SHOULD
15:35:12 [wilkie]
tantek: I've already seen this soak up a lot of discussion time
15:35:16 [cwebber2]
seems weird but no objections
15:35:17 [wilkie]
eprodrom: with Atom, yeah
15:35:32 [wilkie]
tantek: any objections to explaining why you should put a name and why you shouldn't in some other cases
15:35:44 [wilkie]
tantek: no objections, I think you are good to go on that proposal
15:35:50 [jasnell]
re: Tombstones ...
15:36:39 [wilkie]
eprodrom: dmitriz, do you want to discuss 297?
15:36:54 [jasnell]
historically, with AS1, "displayName" was strongly recommended only when extension types were used, to give implementations something to use if they did not understand the type
15:37:01 [wilkie]
dmitriz: in as vocab, we have several types for representing polls and stack-overflow-like questions and answers
15:37:04 [jasnell]
"displayName" was not required, however, if the type was well known
15:37:10 [jasnell]
the same rule would apply here
15:37:19 [wilkie]
dmitriz: how do we handle closing polls or locking a question?
15:37:23 [jasnell]
if the object is using a core type from the vocabulary, then name is largely optional
15:37:33 [wilkie]
dmitriz: I believe jasnell's answer was "no we don't"
15:37:36 [jasnell]
if the object is using an uncommon type or an extension type, name should be provided
15:38:15 [eprodrom]
jasnell: Good example
15:38:28 [wilkie]
tantek: does anybody implement this for polls?
15:38:42 [wilkie]
s/implement this for/implement/
15:38:45 [wilkie]
eprodrom: statusnet
15:38:52 [wilkie]
tantek: should we mark polls at-risk
15:39:03 [wilkie]
tantek: this fits jasnell's answer that this can be done as extension
15:39:53 [wilkie]
eprodrom: I think it makes sense to have it be an extension
15:40:22 [wilkie]
tantek: any objections?
15:40:58 [tantek]
no objections. move Poll to an extension
15:41:15 [wilkie]
dmitriz: I have another issue. about 'scope' and 'context' properties in the vocabularity
15:41:17 [jasnell]
fwiw, closing a question is actually an activity. one could easily imagine {"type": "Close", "object": {"type": "Question", ... }
15:41:33 [wilkie]
dmitriz: it seems like the two are fairly similar
15:41:44 [jasnell]
dmitriz: they aren't
15:41:49 [tantek]
jasnell, any objection to moving Question / Poll to an extension?
15:42:10 [jasnell]
tantek: I see no reason to move it to an extension but whatever the WG decides
15:42:10 [dmitriz]
15:42:16 [tantek]
(evan said it would give us a chance to give them a more proper thorough treatment that implementations that care about those would like)
15:42:37 [jasnell]
dmitriz: scope deals with scoping the intended audience for the object and relates to the to/bto/cc/bcc fields
15:42:39 [wilkie]
dmitriz: 'context' seems like reply-to and useful for comments. 'scope' seems like access control and is this appropriate at this level?
15:42:41 [tantek]
(no current implementations - in the room - have intent to implement, hence it made sense to consider as an extension)
15:42:49 [wilkie]
dmitriz: it seems to fit the same purpose as the 'to' field
15:42:55 [wilkie]
cwebber2: do we have any known uses of 'scope'?
15:42:58 [wilkie]
eprodrom: no
15:43:02 [jasnell]
15:43:03 [wilkie]
cwebber2: can we drop it?
15:43:14 [wilkie]
eprodrom: I would like to give time for jasnell to review and answer
15:43:20 [wilkie]
tantek: do we open the issue?
15:43:26 [wilkie]
eprodrom: yes
15:43:46 [wilkie]
cwebber2: I think dropping scope seems ok
15:43:57 [jasnell]
-1 to dropping scope
15:44:00 [jasnell]
-1 to dropping context
15:44:17 [dmitriz]
what is the use case for scope?
15:44:21 [wilkie]
tantek: can jasnell get on talky?
15:44:27 [tantek]
jasnell: can you get on the talky?
15:44:28 [dmitriz]
it seems to be overloading access control / to: field
15:44:39 [jasnell]
no I cannot, I'm on another call concurrently
15:45:06 [wilkie]
tantek: alright. open the issue and note we have some consensus at the meeting. we will have to come back to it.
15:45:26 [tantek]
but we have an important outstanding objection from jasnell so we will have to come back to it to better understand it
15:45:43 [tantek]
jasnell, no problem, we are capturing the current state for future discussion
15:45:46 [wilkie]
eprodrom: that means we are done
15:46:17 [wilkie]
tantek: you have a bunch of editor, not editorial, editor actions. we only have two after that?
15:46:20 [wilkie]
eprodrom: right
15:46:54 [wilkie]
tantek: do we want to consider publishing a new working draft of activity streams? even before CR draft.
15:47:01 [wilkie]
eprodrom: I think that makes sense. what does that mean for going to CR.
15:47:22 [wilkie]
tantek: it doesn't harm anything. it just puts another draft out such that the changes between that draft and CR are fewer.
15:47:46 [wilkie]
tantek: and it helps to get stuff like the conformance section to get more review
15:47:55 [jasnell]
re scope and context,
15:48:03 [jasnell]
to/bto/cc/bcc deal with notifications
15:48:18 [jasnell]
scope deals with scope the audience, it's a different role than to/bto/cc/bcc
15:48:36 [wilkie]
eprodrom: I should be able to have that by next telecon
15:48:38 [jasnell]
context is something else entirely... it describes a larger context in which the object exists
15:48:43 [wilkie]
tantek: you don't have to wait til the next telecon
15:49:00 [wilkie]
tantek: proposal is to publish new AS working drafts with outstanding edits completed
15:49:03 [wilkie]
eprodrom: great
15:49:09 [eprodrom]
15:49:24 [tantek]
PROPOSED: publish new AS2 working drafts with outstanding (agreed, reviewed) edits completed
15:49:32 [wilkie]
15:49:40 [ben_thatmustbeme]
15:49:41 [aaronpk]
15:49:50 [eprodrom]
15:49:53 [cwebber2]
15:49:55 [dmitriz]
15:50:01 [tsyesika]
15:50:05 [annbass]
15:50:11 [rhiaro]
15:50:24 [tantek]
RESOLVED: publish new AS2 working drafts with outstanding (agreed, reviewed) edits completed
15:50:31 [sandro]
15:50:44 [wilkie]
tantek: that is completely in your camp. the sooner the edits are done, the sooner we get a new draft. so close to CR.
15:51:10 [wilkie]
tantek: we have 10 minutes but lunch is here so let's break for lunch. any objections?
15:55:35 [jasnell]
fwiw, I'm entirely -1 to removing Relationship
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17:02:16 [ben_thatmustbeme]
scribenick: ben_thatmustbeme
17:02:46 [tantek]
chair: tantek
17:03:05 [ben_thatmustbeme]
(continuing from informal conversation during break)
17:03:32 [ben_thatmustbeme]
TOPIC: create update and delete of social objects
17:03:42 [tantek]
17:03:47 [ben_thatmustbeme]
rhiaro: I want to start with a demo of my own
17:04:08 [ben_thatmustbeme]
(the lunch conversation will be recapped soon)
17:04:28 [tantek]
DEMO: Activitypub posting to a site (Amy)
17:04:32 [tantek]
(setting up)
17:08:30 [ben_thatmustbeme]
rhiaro: i started building posting clients
17:08:33 [ben_thatmustbeme]
17:09:05 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... the first i want to show is checkins. I made a checkin client, it authenticates with indieauth, and endpoint discovery the micropub way but its an activitypub client
17:09:14 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... (in terms of the data)
17:11:02 [ben_thatmustbeme]
(technical difficulties)
17:12:17 [dmitriz]
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17:15:00 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... creates an arrive activity on her site
17:15:40 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... backdated the checkin so it says she has been there for an amount of time
17:16:45 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... using another client I create an AS extension object of Consume activity with what i ate (Lunch - Free)
17:17:13 [ben_thatmustbeme]
17:17:43 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... shows the AS objects that were just created
17:18:34 [ben_thatmustbeme]
shows another client for rsvps / travel plans / etc
17:19:25 [ben_thatmustbeme]
rhiaro: all of these are posting activitystreams json object through activitypub by a micropub discovery method (as i just reused the code for it for now)
17:20:33 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... the interesting thing was that i was able to do activitypub create without caring about the other parts of the activitypub spec
17:21:07 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... when i post with quill my micropub endpoint translates it to activity pub first
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17:21:40 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tsyesika: you said its to a micropub endpoint, do you also output the actities as microformats?
17:22:17 [ben_thatmustbeme]
rhiaro: there are some, but in my mind these are completely decoupled. The pages use accept-headers
17:23:09 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... it is different as if you visit my endpoint (in this case the equivalent) it shows nothing
17:23:35 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... in doing this is became really clear how close these two were together
17:23:45 [ben_thatmustbeme]
aaronpk: i can sort of summarize from break
17:23:50 [tantek]
aaronpk is giving a state of Micropub
17:24:13 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... the state of micropub is that when i created Micropub originally it was just create. That simplicity has led to many many clients.
17:24:37 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... the main goal of micropub is to allow many clients you didn't write to post to your site
17:24:54 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... for the majority of cases there already exists a way on your own system to edit and delete
17:25:06 [tantek]
(how many clients do create only?)
17:25:17 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... that said there is also a lot of value to being able to create and delete
17:25:32 [tantek]
17:25:33 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... i'm not super happy with the version i have in MP now
17:25:45 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... it works, but i'm not tied to it.
17:25:59 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... right now it accepts form encoded or json for create
17:26:18 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... the form encoded is important for posting images and video at the same time by multipart
17:27:12 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... i was looking to see if there was a way to use non-form encoding for update & delete but still allow files
17:28:03 [ben_thatmustbeme]
(explains some examples from the spec)
17:28:53 [ben_thatmustbeme]
aaronpk: It would be more convenient if there were only one path for updates as it right now allows both
17:29:21 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... looking at the twitter API there are seperate endpoint for images
17:29:43 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... that returns an ID and then you have to just use that ID or it gets deleted in an hour
17:30:00 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... i like that method as it gets rid of form encoded
17:30:11 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... that simplifies the whole update and delete process for me
17:30:26 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... when you do that there is very little difference between that and activitypub
17:30:32 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... this is where i see the overlap
17:30:50 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... why should i bother making up this new type if activitypub already has this?
17:31:18 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... this is why rhiaro and I were talking about this earlier with the naming of "SocialPub" being the join of the two
17:31:49 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... if you look at it as just updates and deletes. micropub is a special case of create
17:32:03 [ben_thatmustbeme]
cwebber2: would that be for just notes or other things as well
17:32:26 [ben_thatmustbeme]
aaronpk: it could cover things as well, images, videos, events, etc
17:32:50 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... i also have the same for flights and legs of flights, thats super ugly as form encoded
17:32:52 [nicolagreco]
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17:33:27 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... for that one i would rather use a json object. There are plenty of cases for json format but i want that simple version for posting, thats the micro in micropub
17:34:12 [ben_thatmustbeme]
sandro: can i rephrase this? why not do it as micropub is the form encoded posting and "activity update" is the indirect way to modify the resource that has activity streams data on it? how does that not address your use case?
17:34:14 [tantek]
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17:34:33 [ben_thatmustbeme]
aaronpk: i'm not creating acitivites i'm creating posts, so its a different vocabulary
17:34:50 [ben_thatmustbeme]
sandro: activity sreams gives us a patch for those
17:35:00 [ben_thatmustbeme]
aaronpk: thats what i could use
17:35:43 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... the other major difference between the specs, activity pub expects you send the entire object but i want to just modify single properties and i think activity pub would benefit from that
17:36:08 [ben_thatmustbeme]
cwebber2: do you think thats something that should go in to AS2 as an object
17:36:14 [ben_thatmustbeme]
aaronpk: i don't know
17:36:20 [ben_thatmustbeme]
cwebber2: i don't know either
17:37:10 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: what if i gave you a week to discuss this asyncronously then maybe you can get consensus between you two and you can pitch it to the group
17:37:35 [ben_thatmustbeme]
cwebber2: we do also have some method of an undelete
17:38:15 [tantek]
tsyesika: we discussed some of this before lunch
17:38:29 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tsyesika: presumably this would be in both our specs we would refer to this social pub document. creating is still different. in activity pub we currently require you to always create posts in an activity
17:38:54 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... we could allow this to post a single object for client to server but not server to server
17:39:14 [ben_thatmustbeme]
aaronpk: i do support that idea, i think creating is the most important action and that should be as simple as possible
17:39:31 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... we would be looking for creating a CRUD syntax both specs could use
17:40:03 [Loqi]
Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]]
17:40:08 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... maybe you make that exception, but the idea is that there would be 1 way to create things that would be in common
17:40:34 [ben_thatmustbeme]
cwebber2: this sounds appealing of reaching concensus on something that has previously been very different on
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17:40:58 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tsyesika: i think its a good idea to make use of this time tosee if we can resolve this as we have an open issue on activytpub now
17:41:32 [ben_thatmustbeme]
cwebber2: evan was a strong objector to seeing a "pure system" of always having activity wrapped objects go away
17:42:02 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... he didn't seem happy about it. i asked about the api only, and he didn't seem happy about it.
17:42:10 [ben_thatmustbeme]
aaronpk: i can see that making sense in the stream as well
17:42:35 [ben_thatmustbeme]
cwebber2: i think i'm ok with it, but i think its important that tsyesika be convinced since she is the main implementor
17:43:17 [cwebber2]
17:43:26 [tantek]
(example of creating offline on a plane, and publishing later)
17:43:27 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tsyesika: i'm certainly in support of convergence. the create activity is useful in itself as it can contain information that is different from the object, say the offline creation is different from the publish date
17:43:44 [tantek]
(note: dt-created property has been discussed in other contexts for this reason too)
17:43:51 [tantek]
(separate from published or updated)
17:44:09 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tsyesika: i'm interested in seeing if on the micropub side you would be willing to have it so that the server can always accept the wrapped activity as well as the unwrapped format
17:44:51 [ben_thatmustbeme]
rhiaro: micropub doesn't say anything about what the server does with it when i gets the item, thats not part of the spec. all you have to do is have an endpoint that advertises itself as such
17:45:41 [ben_thatmustbeme]
aaronpk: we have a difference in authors, you could set the author in the object or the created date, so its assumed that the server will fill those in
17:45:54 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tsyesika: its the same in activity pub
17:46:13 [tantek]
17:46:15 [tantek]
ack cwebber
17:46:21 [ben_thatmustbeme]
cwebber2: it sounds like thats not so big a difference.
17:46:35 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... this seems like a minimalist create mode
17:46:47 [ben_thatmustbeme]
sandro: creation shortcut mode
17:47:07 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tsyesika: with a few caviats, i'm on board with this
17:47:27 [tantek]
17:47:44 [ben_thatmustbeme]
cwebber2: if our side supports that and your side supports the unwrapping activities
17:48:17 [ben_thatmustbeme]
aaronpk: whats left in micropub is having the file uploading endpoint, form encoding ..
17:48:32 [ben_thatmustbeme]
cwebber2: we might be able unify on the image endpoint too
17:48:50 [ben_thatmustbeme]
cwebber2: thats an easy collaboration endpoint
17:49:05 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: i'd like to see that image endpoint written up
17:49:15 [cwebber2]
17:49:29 [cwebber2]
the out-of-band create mechanism
17:49:31 [ben_thatmustbeme]
rhiaro: there are a couple places where the two specs are unsure of things so this is great
17:49:47 [ben_thatmustbeme]
aaronpk: this would be great for me to keep micropub as simple as it should be
17:50:02 [Loqi]
Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]]
17:50:17 [ben_thatmustbeme]
cwebber2: if it is much smaller and we have a way to translate vocabularies
17:50:31 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... i can see it getting added to mediagoblin
17:51:05 [ben_thatmustbeme]
rhiaro: i was able to do that method to determine what data is being send
17:51:14 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tsyesika: i'm curious vocab convergence
17:51:23 [ben_thatmustbeme]
aaronpk: i think thats a seperate discussion that we could have
17:51:35 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... i tried to leave it out of micropub as much as possible
17:51:49 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... that way i can post to it without even knowing what its posting
17:52:03 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... i like the aspect of it
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17:52:09 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: what to most implementation support?
17:52:45 [ben_thatmustbeme]
aaronpk: most support only creating and most already have some other storage properties that they are matching to
17:53:14 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... when i built mine i specifically have the endpoint write directly to storage, so that it is sorted out when rendering
17:53:55 [ben_thatmustbeme]
cwebber2: i feel like where we are at a point where we are at a point where these are practically going to be shared but we need some idea of what mapping between the vocabularies means
17:54:11 [tantek]
17:54:23 [ben_thatmustbeme]
aaronpk: the problem that keeps coming up in the indiewebcamp channel is how do we propogate changes to old posts
17:54:42 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... the readers are all based around new posts
17:55:24 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... this is where i'm seeing activity streams being useful for this, and while i might not have a mapping on my main site, but i might use it as a stream of whats going on
17:55:43 [ben_thatmustbeme]
cwebber2: rhiaro you were working on the mapping between the two at some point i think
17:56:10 [ben_thatmustbeme]
rhiaro: there is some pages and such, but the other important part is post type discovery
17:56:43 [ben_thatmustbeme]
rhiaro: so there are some properties that map directly but there are a few places where it takes some work
17:57:11 [ben_thatmustbeme]
cwebber2: so will microformats will reference this activitypub document
17:57:35 [tantek]
s/activitypub document/socialpub document
17:57:40 [tantek]
17:57:55 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... is there going to be a seperate socialpub document or will it be both specs take on some changes?
17:58:54 [ben_thatmustbeme]
rhiaro: i think since i've implemented this seperately as the create part, i'm in favor of breaking up activtypub into smaller docs
17:59:24 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tsyesika: i have to admit one of the things i want for activity pub is to break it up into smaller steps that are implementable seperately
17:59:56 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... so if i want to use only part of it, i can, but if some larger system wants to do all of it, they can
18:00:47 [tantek]
18:01:09 [ben_thatmustbeme]
cwebber2: so heres a proposal kind of based off of what amy has done previously, would this be a reasonable restructuring of the document would be just "how to write a simple document" and then 'servers handling the client to server api' and then 3rd was server to server api
18:01:45 [ben_thatmustbeme]
rhiaro: i would see it as 'heres how to get data to the server' then 'heres what to do with it once it gets to the server'
18:02:30 [ben_thatmustbeme]
rhiaro: so if you wanted to do the second half you could do that seperately. you could do client to server just sending files for examples
18:02:54 [ben_thatmustbeme]
cwebber2: so maybe socialpub becomes client to server entirely and then activitypub becomes server to server
18:03:04 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... is that a proposal that we are willing to work towards?
18:03:24 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tsyesika: well there are more ways to break this up than just client to server and server to server
18:03:35 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... like posting an activity vs updating
18:03:46 [ben_thatmustbeme]
rhiaro: i think the client to server seperates very easily
18:04:06 [ben_thatmustbeme]
cwebber2: i think the simpler way is saying socialpub is client to server and activitypub becomes server to server
18:04:29 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: i feel like there is part of it you are agreeing on some and others you are not
18:04:53 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... it seems like you are talking the same language now and thats a huge step
18:05:05 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... i want to capture this as a set of action items
18:05:25 [ben_thatmustbeme]
rhiaro: i could start with this as a section of social web protocols
18:05:51 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: i also so a number of suggestions for next steps for activity pub that could be done
18:06:20 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... i'll trust you as editors to continue to converge on these proactively
18:06:31 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... but i'd like to see you not depend on each other.
18:07:00 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... amy you have a bunch of stuff written up, do you feel you can add that to social web protocols
18:07:06 [ben_thatmustbeme]
rhiaro: yes
18:07:13 [ben_thatmustbeme]
aaronpk: i can help with that
18:07:22 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: for now you can add it and publish and iterate
18:08:16 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... so we can action you and then the rest can happen asyncronously
18:08:38 [ben_thatmustbeme]
... so that if anyone gets stuck on their document they are not stopping anyone else
18:09:18 [ben_thatmustbeme]
aaronpk: it sounds like the best thing i can do is replace the whole update and replace section and assume it will be moved to the social web protocols eventually
18:09:46 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tsyesika: i think the main this for us is to update our spec to allow this simple editing
18:10:23 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: i think the other idea you had to update to do this seperate sections of incremental implementations that would be great
18:11:00 [ben_thatmustbeme]
action rhiaro to incorporate your work done in to the social web protocols document for the others in the group to review
18:11:00 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-88 - Incorporate your work done in to the social web protocols document for the others in the group to review [on Amy Guy - due 2016-03-24].
18:11:03 [cwebber2] <- issue here
18:11:54 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: both of you (aaron and tsyesika) to keep track of that on your githubs
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18:14:24 [ben_thatmustbeme]
ben_thatmustbeme: i would like to see outbox read and write seperated out
18:14:33 [ben_thatmustbeme]
cwebber2: i think there is some more discussion on that
18:14:58 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: can you create an issue on social web protocols to capture that amy?
18:15:22 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek: we are not breaking for 15 minutes
18:15:27 [tantek]
18:15:37 [tantek]
resume at 14:30 EDT
18:15:39 [Loqi]
I added a countdown for 3/17 11:30am (#5819)
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18:29:02 [Loqi]
18:29:03 [Loqi]
Countdown set by tantek on 3/17/16 at 11:15am
18:30:00 [tantek]
Thank you Loqi
18:33:11 [KevinMarks_]
hi there
18:33:22 [KevinMarks_]
I can see a tantek
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18:34:23 [aaronpk]
KevinMarks_: can you hear?
18:34:36 [ben_thatmustbeme]
TOPIC: open issues for activitypub
18:34:40 [KevinMarks_]
yes i can
18:35:40 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom_: i think the idea was to put some time this afternoon in to resolving open issues
18:36:08 [ben_thatmustbeme]
cwebber2: i would like to proceed by first addressing issue 71
18:36:16 [cwebber2]
18:36:25 [cwebber2]
18:36:46 [sandro]
scribe: sandro
18:37:44 [sandro]
tsyesika: we have certain terms like inbox, outbox, ... and rhiaro suggested generalizing this as a stream array
18:38:09 [sandro]
.. also a way to achieve (something) about inbox and outbox
18:39:01 [sandro]
cwebber2: So the question is... Amy's suggestion is instead of followers, .... use types, ....
18:39:55 [sandro]
cwebber2: What could be true is we could have a term in activitypub that here's a term for ...
18:40:02 [Loqi]
Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]]
18:40:03 [Loqi]
Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]]
18:40:13 [sandro]
cwebber2: Amy's propositiyon soun ds interesting but I dont think object types is the right way to break it up
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18:40:30 [sandro]
cwebber2: c-s or s-s might have different streams, and maybe this is a way to do that
18:40:51 [shevski]
i'll be back
18:41:05 [sandro]
cwebber2: so there could be a "likes" stream, maybe a subset of collection, or maybe it's own URI,
18:41:15 [aaronpk]
18:41:17 [sandro]
.. I'm not sure which, I'd like to open it for discussion
18:41:23 [sandro]
.. I think people do have arbitrary streams
18:41:46 [sandro]
aaronpk: I have struggled with this problem. I think I understand why you have these distinctions
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18:42:04 [sandro]
.. on my homepage I have some kinds of posts, but not others, and down at the bottom I have links to the others
18:42:22 [sandro]
.. I curate the collections based on how I want people to read it, NOT on types
18:42:25 [sandro]
.. so I have health
18:42:28 [sandro]
.. and travel
18:42:37 [sandro]
.. and events I'm going to that are not in Portland
18:42:45 [sandro]
.. so these are very much mixed types
18:42:54 [KevinMarks_]
q+ are these different semantically than tags?
18:42:54 [sandro]
.. and I have my primary stream
18:43:07 [eprodrom__]
18:43:12 [eprodrom__]
ack aaronpk
18:43:14 [KevinMarks_]
q+ to ask are these different semantically than tags?
18:43:15 [sandro]
.. In an old version of my site I had them by type, but that didn't work well
18:43:51 [sandro]
eprodrom__: Certain groups, like Chris' Friends, or Chris' main feed, or Things Chris Likes, ... a core set of five predefined
18:44:04 [sandro]
.. then have other unqualified streams
18:44:29 [sandro]
cwebber2: Because followers and likes have API specific purpose
18:44:33 [sandro]
eprodrom__: Right
18:44:59 [sandro]
.. So just have a relationship Stream might do this
18:45:24 [sandro]
cwebber2: WIth the addition of arbitrary labeling of these new streams
18:46:02 [sandro]
cwebber2: Sounds like have consensus, which I'm recording on the issue
18:46:24 [sandro]
"So we will have special API specific collections, like likes and followers and inbox, but streams should be supported as a general bucket for interesting collections."
18:46:25 [cwebber2]
18:47:08 [sandro]
cwebber2: This kind of moves into Who Do You Trust
18:47:21 [sandro]
.. I think we've agreed, you trust same origin, otherwise you link back and verify
18:47:36 [sandro]
.. the desire for supporting static sites
18:47:50 [sandro]
.. So I would point my endpoints off-server
18:47:57 [sandro]
.. in which case how do you know who has authority
18:48:11 [sandro]
.. Are there other origin scoping tools?
18:48:25 [sandro]
.. or do we just not want to permit that kind of static site thing
18:48:57 [sandro]
sandro: Doesn;t a link serve as delegation?
18:49:23 [sandro]
cwebber2: If the profile is on a static site, maybe we can trust what it points to, yes....
18:50:52 [sandro]
cwebber2: adding comment on issue
18:51:33 [jasnell]
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18:51:49 [sandro]
eprodrom__: gets an UpdateOn dustyclould, and it knows how to do it. I don't see why we need to proscribe server behavior
18:52:36 [sandro]
cwebber2: If you get a message from me that there's something new, and my endpoints are on another server, should you trust them
18:52:58 [sandro]
eprodrom__: If I remember how does it, it checks to see the authentication of the actor
18:53:33 [sandro]
cwebber2: In APub you can have an update that's an update of a blog on another site. And you'd trust the author.
18:53:57 [sandro]
cwebber2: Can you fake that you're someone else?
18:54:17 [melvster]
IMHO there's nothing specific about the same origin that implies you can trust it, that's just a typical pattern used together with centralized services
18:54:21 [sandro]
cwebber2: Assuming you want to support static sites, you'd need something like this
18:55:20 [sandro]
sandro: same origin isn't relevant here. It's following trust-bearing links
18:55:53 [sandro]
tantek: CSP - content-security-policy can help if you want to do this offline
18:56:21 [sandro]
harry: So for example you could trust ... (something)
18:56:37 [nicolagreco]
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18:56:45 [sandro]
cwebber2: I think I understand how to handle this
18:56:58 [cwebber2]
18:57:00 [sandro]
tantek: I'm happy to answer CSP questions, since I just implemented it for my site
18:57:04 [jasnell_]
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18:57:18 [hhalpin]
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18:57:25 [hhalpin]
CSP is here Sandro
18:57:43 [hhalpin]
18:57:45 [sandro]
cwebber2: The main challenge for us is how to do discovery
18:57:53 [hhalpin]
Typically, you want to use it when you are authorizing Javascript from outside the same origin.
18:58:06 [hhalpin]
Would be useful if the endpoint has a feed that has some JS, and should be recommended to use.
18:58:14 [tantek]
hhalpin: documentation of my experience with CSP:
18:58:18 [shevski]
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18:58:27 [hhalpin]
CSP support works well in browsers now
18:58:42 [hhalpin]
So any SOP exceptions, particuarly if they involve javascript, should use CSP
18:58:45 [KevinMarks_]
if you separate the image upload from the post, and then use a URL, that implies you could use an external url for an image?
18:58:58 [sandro]
cwebber2: Is it useful to put on the user's profile page where I submit my photos
18:59:29 [sandro]
aaronpk: You see things like this on a multiuser system
18:59:56 [nicolagreco]
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19:00:24 [nicolagreco]
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19:00:38 [sandro]
tsyesika: Someone might want their media whereever they want it
19:00:57 [sandro]
cwebber2: It feels a bit silly to me
19:01:10 [sandro]
tsyesika: People might have multiple endpoints
19:01:21 [sandro]
eprodrom__: Discoverable endpoints for upload? Sounds great
19:01:51 [cwebber2]
19:01:54 [sandro]
cwebber2: okay, sounds good
19:02:32 [sandro]
cwebber2: This has come up a few times. It bothers me we still don't have this
19:03:09 [sandro]
.. the main challenge that was blocking this is what happens when activities represent other activities that don't exist any more
19:03:37 [sandro]
... transient activities, like IM or strawberry-watering.
19:04:01 [sandro]
.. one approach is to have activities with no id, and they get delivered through federation but other otherwise not interesting
19:04:09 [sandro]
.. or give them a UUID
19:04:25 [tantek]
Topic: Open issues for ActivityPub
19:04:39 [sandro]
eprodrom__: We talked about the 'scope' property earlier today. Would that be a way to address this?
19:04:42 [tantek]
Open issues for Webmention at 15:35
19:04:44 [Loqi]
I added a countdown for 3/17 3:35pm (#5820)
19:04:48 [sandro]
.. maybe I put a scope of 'game update'
19:04:53 [hhalpin]
in general, you need an id or some kind for HTTP REST retrieval of ids from X to X1 in terms of polling, right?
19:04:54 [tantek]
!cancel #5820
19:04:56 [Loqi]
Ok, I cancelled it
19:04:56 [aaronpk]
q+ that sounds like a notification
19:05:03 [tantek]
Open issues for Webmention at 15:35 EDT
19:05:05 [Loqi]
I added a countdown for 3/17 12:35pm (#5821)
19:05:40 [aaronpk]
q+ to say that sounds like a notification
19:05:48 [tantek]
19:05:49 [KevinMarks_]
19:05:49 [sandro]
eprodrom__: One of the problems with client-defined-expiry is that client lie and cheat and are bad. They say keep this forever, it's important.
19:05:58 [dmitriz]
19:06:06 [sandro]
.. Clients might have advisory info, but the server needs to decide.
19:06:18 [sandro]
.. IRC updates from the F2F, scope might be F2F
19:06:47 [sandro]
cwebber2: mauybe that's a fed only concern
19:07:07 [hhalpin]
19:07:08 [hhalpin]
19:07:25 [sandro]
eprodrom__: Once again you're trying to dictate server behavior. Also this might not be that important. identica has a lot of updates, but it's not that big really
19:07:45 [sandro]
aaronpk: It sounds like you're kind of talking about a Notification, which is not an activity
19:07:56 [sandro]
cwebber2: Yes, but also a chat that you don't want to keep around
19:08:09 [eprodrom__]
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19:08:14 [sandro]
aaronpk: Off The Record messaging is a different thing, with its own set of considerations
19:08:23 [sandro]
.. Call these notifications, and it makes sense.
19:08:59 [sandro]
aaronpk: You probably don't want to casually throw OTR into the spec
19:09:14 [Karli]
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19:09:15 [sandro]
cwebber2: Yeah, if we just put OTR in here, we'll probably get it wrong
19:09:43 [sandro]
cwebber2: In this world, there's generally an expectation that people can retrieve things, so OTR wil be hard
19:09:59 [sandro]
cwebber2: How would we show notifications?
19:10:15 [sandro]
.. Some server-to-server notificaton, like your quota is reached
19:10:31 [sandro]
eprodrom__: Is that about too much data? I dunno what this is for.
19:10:58 [sandro]
dmitriz: This is misusing scope. James said it would be renamed to 'audience'. And access-control-like thing.
19:11:24 [sandro]
cwebber2: OpenFarmGame has its own type. So servers could garbage-collect them easily enough.
19:11:52 [sandro]
cwebber2: In an earlier version of the spec, it seemed like servers had to keep things around forever
19:12:12 [sandro]
.. that was also part of our motivation for tombstones
19:12:36 [sandro]
eprodrom__: That might be good to document. For example, twitter API only lets you go back 800 tweets, which is like a day.
19:12:36 [hhalpin]
Re OTR end-to-end encrypted messaging, there is a new protocol called Axolotl that is used by Signal/WhatsApp/(interest from Mozilla/Wire:
19:12:47 [hhalpin]
That is a revision and fixes mpOTR issues
19:12:59 [hhalpin]
However, I agree that OTR is out of scope.
19:13:27 [sandro]
dmitriz: Agreed clients lie, but the client setting an expiry on a stream is useful.
19:13:35 [jasnell]
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19:13:44 [hhalpin]
However, happy to ask the nextleap folks (George and Karthik - to see if they can staple Axolotl on top of whatever comes out of ActivityPub, since folks are going to be working on that for the next 2.5 years
19:13:50 [sandro]
cwebber2: Could be via an extension
19:14:08 [sandro]
eprodrom__: Like 'earliest item in colleciton is X'
19:14:45 [sandro]
.. Most social systems don't go back very far now, so we shouldn't ask that of folks.
19:15:01 [sandro]
.. "This is everything in the inbox. Note some servers limit the number of pages you cna go back."
19:15:12 [sandro]
cwebber2: okay, resolved
19:15:12 [hhalpin]
+1 finding earliest item in collection
19:15:39 [shevski]
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19:15:45 [hhalpin]
Do we have some normative way of getting id numbers per feed in AS2.0 and ActivityPub?
19:15:50 [hhalpin]
[looking in spec]
19:15:58 [sandro]
"we won't support id-less notificaitons. Clarify that it's up to servers if they want to keep around objects as long as they want. If they want to delete objects, like maybe delete a bunch of game notifications, that's a-ok.
19:15:58 [sandro]
Perhaps a future extension will permit clarifying how long users might expect they can continue to access data."
19:15:58 [tsyesika]
19:16:18 [sandro]
tsyesika: Can we specify indieauth for authentication?
19:16:41 [sandro]
tsyesika: Or is that out-of-scope?
19:16:54 [sandro]
19:17:10 [hhalpin]
+1 OAuth 2.0, with a nonn-normative recommendation for use of rel="me" w/i IndieWeb
19:17:13 [melvster]
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19:17:13 [cwebber2]
q- aaronpk
19:17:14 [eprodrom__]
ack aaronpk
19:17:20 [eprodrom__]
ack dmitriz
19:17:28 [dmitriz]
19:17:37 [sandro]
hhalpin: indieauth is oauth2 so ...
19:17:50 [eprodrom__]
19:17:57 [cwebber2]
19:18:00 [sandro]
.. I feel like you should normatively require oath2 and suggest indieauth
19:18:03 [aaronpk]
19:18:07 [eprodrom]
19:18:09 [tantek]
+1 to hhalpin
19:18:15 [tantek]
ack hhalpin
19:18:43 [sandro]
hhalpin: How do you do the REST call where you get X from Y
19:18:53 [eprodrom]
19:18:57 [hhalpin]
Like without re-polling everything
19:19:02 [hhalpin]
That is something Objective8 from D-CENT hit
19:19:17 [hhalpin]
We can normatively refer to OAuth 2.0 - its an IETF rec
19:19:29 [hhalpin]
In fact, OAuth 2.0 does more or less give interop
19:19:47 [hhalpin]
OAuth 2.0 is Authorization
19:20:01 [tantek]
agreed that interop is the goal
19:20:06 [tantek]
reference something if it helps interop
19:20:08 [sandro]
sandro: oauth2 doesn't tell you what you need to make this work
19:20:13 [hhalpin]
+1 OAuth 2.0 and Bearer Token spec
19:20:19 [tantek]
+1 to that as well
19:20:26 [dmitriz]
bearer tokens in a federated context is not that easy
19:20:29 [hhalpin]
Authentication should be left out (WebAuth + password stuff)
19:20:29 [sandro]
aaronpk: Use oatuh2 and bearer-tokens, but that still leaves stuff underspecified
19:20:38 [dmitriz]
(this is something we've been struggling with in Solid, as well)
19:20:43 [wilkie]
identity in a federated context is not the easy
19:20:44 [hhalpin]
Identity, well, it's tough. There's some takeup of OpenID Connect (OAuth 2.0 profile)
19:20:51 [sandro]
aaronpk: Identity is what's really useful here
19:20:57 [hhalpin]
But it's not as universal in takeup as OAuth 2.0
19:21:02 [tantek]
19:21:04 [sandro]
.. So "just use oauth" doesn't sove the problems
19:21:05 [sandro]
19:21:07 [tantek]
19:21:30 [sandro]
eprodrom: So Use Auth2 with Bearer-Tokens, that's clear enough, but...
19:21:30 [tantek]
19:21:38 [aaronpk]
19:21:46 [sandro]
cwebber2: "This is a stub to be expanded"
19:22:09 [hhalpin]
JSON Web Signatures is just a way to sign the bearer token if bearer token is JWT
19:22:12 [sandro]
cwebber2: This was left in there as a to-be-worked-on
19:22:18 [jasnell_]
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19:22:21 [sandro]
eprodrom: We keep saying don't do this :-)
19:22:35 [hhalpin]
I'm happy to take an action to review/edit that piece. We could make it non-normative but no guidance is kinda crazy
19:22:39 [sandro]
cwebber2: Is the right thing to do to say that Auth and Ident are left as an open question
19:22:45 [hhalpin]
19:22:46 [hhalpin]
19:22:53 [eprodrom]
19:23:14 [eprodrom]
ack dmitriz
19:23:14 [sandro]
sandro: Leave it out of the spec, and put a best practice in a Note
19:23:38 [sandro]
dmitriz: In Solid, we've been looking at this, and IndieAuth is one of the things we considered.
19:24:01 [sandro]
.. but because of all the redirects, it's nice in a browser, but not so clear in an API
19:24:13 [sandro]
.. Facebook and others solve that by giving an API token, but that's non-trivial
19:24:27 [eprodrom]
19:24:33 [sandro]
.. So lets get something working, but yeah, leave it not in the spec for now
19:25:09 [sandro]
eprodrom: My feeling is, if you need to, Auth2+BearerTokens, but I can see lots of other ways to do this, unauth, basic auth, client certs, etc
19:25:23 [sandro]
.. Telling me I have to use a certain kind of auth messes things up for me.
19:25:35 [tantek]
19:25:37 [tantek]
ack next
19:25:55 [sandro]
tsyesika: So we should say "folks SHOULD use OAuth2 + BT" ?
19:26:15 [sandro]
eprodrom: isn't going to bother with indieauth. We'll stick with username and password.
19:26:26 [sandro]
.. we'll just generate our own tokens
19:26:36 [barnabywalters]
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19:26:52 [sandro]
.. so it's okay as a SHOULD or a best-practice. Don't require more than you can.
19:27:04 [tantek]
19:27:11 [eprodrom]
ack cwebber
19:27:36 [sandro]
cwebber2: Implementations will probably do what the others do.
19:27:51 [eprodrom]
19:27:57 [eprodrom]
ack tantek
19:28:08 [sandro]
tantek: tsyesika said goal should be interop
19:28:35 [sandro]
.. we can't normatively refer to indieauth, in part because of charter, but we can do an informative non-normative reference
19:28:48 [sandro]
.. one way would be to ask if there are any implementations that have an intent
19:29:08 [cwebber2]
aaronpk, is specification of indieauth as informative / non-normative currently the state in your standards?
19:29:17 [aaronpk]
in micropub?
19:29:21 [cwebber2]
aaronpk: yes
19:29:36 [sandro]
.. if no intends to implement both, then don't bother
19:29:46 [aaronpk]
19:29:53 [eprodrom]
19:30:14 [cwebber2]
19:30:44 [sandro]
amy: my site uses indieauth, but it delegates the work to
19:31:24 [sandro]
aaronpk: The interesting part here is starting from your URL and ending up getting a bearer token
19:31:51 [jasnell]
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19:32:10 [sandro]
tantek: So you have an implementation to compare against ( rhiaro's )
19:32:26 [sandro]
tantek: Just style it in a spec as NOTE
19:32:40 [eprodrom]
ack hhalpin
19:33:15 [sandro]
hhalpin: A total stub then that's not going to work because no-one is going to read it.
19:33:37 [sandro]
hhalpin: So say O2 + BT and NOTE: try IndieAuth
19:33:47 [tantek]
BT = bearer token
19:33:50 [sandro]
hhalpin: But obviously it's not going to be usef by everyone
19:34:02 [Loqi]
Open issues for Webmention
19:34:03 [Loqi]
Countdown set by tantek on 3/17/16 at 12:05pm
19:34:20 [aaronpk]
19:34:22 [sandro]
hhalpin: "SHOULD Oauth2 + Brearer-Token"
19:34:30 [eprodrom]
19:34:33 [sandro]
hhalpin: Happy to have relevant experts look over this text
19:34:37 [tantek]
ack eprodrom
19:34:48 [sandro]
eprodrom: Does IndieAuth work in non-browser applications?
19:34:55 [sandro]
dmitriz: RIght, that's a problem
19:35:04 [sandro]
eprodrom: Also, not in server-to-server
19:35:16 [hhalpin]
I would also keep authentication out of scope, server to server is OAuth
19:35:21 [sandro]
eprodrom: We should define server-to-server method
19:35:22 [hhalpin]
in terms of authorization
19:35:27 [hhalpin]
happy to review that text
19:35:38 [sandro]
aaronpk: So I just say use Bearer-Token
19:35:52 [aaronpk]
19:35:56 [sandro]
aaronpk: MIcroPub has text like this
19:36:11 [sandro]
tantek: How do private webmentions work?
19:36:14 [eprodrom]
19:36:18 [aaronpk]
19:36:33 [sandro]
ack cwebber2
19:36:50 [tantek]
ack next
19:36:51 [sandro]
cwebber2: Let's aim for the same text between micropub and activitypub
19:37:11 [sandro]
cwebber2 reads micropub spec parts aloud
19:37:49 [sandro]
sandro: that wouldn't allow client-certs that evan wants
19:37:59 [sandro]
eprodrom: Ah yes, I wouldn't want MUST
19:38:29 [sandro]
aaronpk: I definetely want multiple ways to get the token, so I leave that open.
19:38:59 [sandro]
aaronpk: I like the requirement of Bearer-Tokens, because it's what everyone does anyway.
19:39:07 [eprodrom]
19:40:03 [sandro]
aaronpk: Separate out authentication from authorization
19:40:27 [sandro]
aaronpk: Separate how you get the bearer token from how you use it.
19:40:37 [sandro]
eprodrom: Make the Bearer-Token a SHOULD
19:40:40 [sandro]
aaronpk: yep
19:41:38 [melvster]
you have to separate THREE parts not TWO : 1. identity 2. authentication 3. authorization
19:41:40 [sandro]
aaronpk: SHOULD use bearer-token, SHOULD use oauth2 to get it
19:41:51 [sandro]
sandro: let's go for MAY use oauth2 to get it
19:42:01 [sandro]
sandro: since there are other perfectly legit ways
19:42:22 [melvster]
this is why oauth is not a good fit for the social web, it doesnt do identity (or doesnt do it very well at least)
19:43:10 [sandro]
cwebber2, probably down to about 22 issues, and several more we can deal with among the editors
19:47:16 [nicolagreco]
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19:58:08 [tantek]
19:58:30 [eprodrom]
19:58:39 [rhiaro]
scribe: rhiaro
19:58:45 [rhiaro]
TOPIC: Webmention open issues
20:00:02 [Loqi]
Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]]
20:00:07 [melvster]
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20:00:27 [rhiaro]
20:00:44 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: Source and target form parameters are not URIs, how can we convert them to URIs because it's important for some people
20:01:22 [rhiaro]
... My thoughts are it has not caused any issues with any implementations that these are not URIs, so unless anyone has a single sentence they can describe a solution right now we can do it, but if not I propose we close
20:01:43 [rhiaro]
sandro: prefix with http://.....#
20:02:18 [rhiaro]
... When people want to represent their data for archival or to pass to other systems they want to make unambiguous the notion of source and target
20:02:25 [rhiaro]
... These notions are things that reasonably could have URIs
20:02:37 [rhiaro]
... if they were in IANA we could use that, but they're not, so currently everyone has to make up their own uris for these
20:02:48 [rhiaro]
... It's a trivial problem to solve, and it's a problem some people have
20:03:05 [rhiaro]
tantek: an alternative is a registry for form encoded parameters, like rel values, which are not uris
20:03:18 [rhiaro]
sandro: there's no conjecture that people should use the same form encoded parameter
20:03:22 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: what is the easy solution?
20:03:42 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: the solution is, if you want this to be a URI, prefix them with
20:03:49 [rhiaro]
tantek: isn't this an implementation detail?
20:04:00 [rhiaro]
sandro: not if you want interoperability with some protocol that isn't webmention
20:04:07 [rhiaro]
... people might in theory want to see where webmentions are
20:04:13 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: there's no definition of get on a webmention endpoint
20:04:24 [rhiaro]
sandro: you should get back webmentions you're allowed to see
20:04:40 [rhiaro]
tantek: if you were to publish an activity stream of webmentions, what would that look like
20:04:50 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: implementations currently just drop webmentions on the floor after they're processed
20:04:52 [sandro]
say that webmention source is equivalent to ''
20:05:04 [rhiaro]
... there is an idea of status urls, which can be GET to see status, so the webmention itself has url
20:05:19 [KevinMarks_]
an activity stream of webmentions would look like
20:05:20 [rhiaro]
... Implementations treat these as temporary and drop them. THere are so many that are spam that come in so they aren't kept
20:05:23 [rhiaro]
... but that's the resource
20:05:37 [rhiaro]
... but status is the description fo the webmention source and target and maybe what happened to it
20:05:59 [rhiaro]
tantek: if your implementation wishes to treat these terms as uris then it may use the following:
20:06:05 [rhiaro]
... anyone who wants to use that can
20:06:11 [rhiaro]
... anyone who doesn't can skip it
20:06:31 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: what section does that go in?
20:06:36 [rhiaro]
tantek: appendix?
20:06:47 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: it's own section?
20:06:59 [rhiaro]
tantek: anyone who wants a uri for this you can point them to that section, don't bury it
20:07:13 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: okay, I'll comment and close the issue when it's added
20:07:22 [sandro]
"URIs for form-encoding properties"
20:07:30 [sandro]
20:07:30 [eprodrom]
20:07:43 [rhiaro]
20:07:59 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: I've summarised my position at the bottom
20:08:24 [rhiaro]
... This is a description of an attack where somebody can send a webmention to a system, and if the system can cause actions to happen on a GET request, I can cause that system to make another GET request somewhere which might have undesireable requests
20:08:34 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: so I could use it for probing security holes in wordpress servers?
20:08:40 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: except the attacker doesnt' actually get a response
20:08:47 [rhiaro]
tantek: you could cause a side effect, not get information
20:08:53 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: all you can do is make the webmention receiver make a get request
20:09:04 [rhiaro]
... which is unfortunately possible but also something that is bad practice no matter what you're doing
20:09:18 [rhiaro]
... so it's not really something for the webmention spec: don't make your system vulnterable to get requests
20:09:35 [rhiaro]
sandro: Never install webmention if you're behind a firewall? You are endangering everything esle behind the firewall
20:09:45 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: only if yoru system has access to both sides of the firewall
20:09:57 [rhiaro]
tantek: we should call this out in the security and privacy?
20:10:04 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: what am I calling out? dont' put insecure systems on the internet?
20:10:08 [rhiaro]
... what am I supposed to say?
20:10:32 [KevinMarks_]
refer to 9.1.1
20:10:39 [rhiaro]
sandro: this is putting a system that is perfectly secure in a .. behind a firewall which may seem reasonable because it can't do anythign except webmention, but people might not realise that a putting a blog tha timplements webmention behind a firewall in a way that it has access to the internet
20:10:40 [eprodrom]
20:10:50 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: it has to have server access to the internet in order to receive a webmention in the firs tplace
20:10:58 [rhiaro]
... you'd have to put an http server inside your firewall that also listens publicly
20:11:05 [KevinMarks_]
"In particular, the convention has been established that the GET and HEAD methods SHOULD NOT have the significance of taking an action other than retrieval. These methods ought to be considered "safe""
20:11:13 [cwebber2]
20:11:37 [rhiaro]
sandro: behind the firewall you have a simple blog and the blog does a post that happens to mention something else behind the firewall and does the webmention processing, dereferences the url that the user put in the post, and that thing out there says go to this url as my webmention endpoint, does that, that was behind the firewall..
20:11:40 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: oh okay
20:12:02 [rhiaro]
hhalpin: why is this not a problem for any system that lets you put arbitrary urls as input? not just webmention
20:12:09 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: sandro described the actual attack vector
20:12:10 [shevski]
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20:12:15 [rhiaro]
... blog inside firewall does not listen on internet, has no public endpoint
20:12:19 [KevinMarks_]
how is this different from a hyperlink in the browser that you click inside the firewall?
20:12:21 [rhiaro]
... a person behind firewall writes a post with a linkt o the attacker
20:12:28 [rhiaro]
... blog makes request to attacker
20:12:46 [rhiaro]
... attacker can then cause the internal system to make a request to another internal system, if the webmention endpoint of the attacker is inside the firewall
20:12:46 [eprodrom]
20:13:13 [eprodrom]
ack cwebber2
20:13:17 [Karli]
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20:13:19 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: when I was addressing this it sounded like I was describing really basic security practices and didnt' want to sound condescending
20:13:20 [eprodrom]
ack cwebber
20:13:27 [annbass]
q+ to ask same question that KevinMarks asked
20:13:29 [rhiaro]
cwebber2: would it be possible to post to localhost? cos that sounds like the biggest risk
20:13:37 [eprodrom]
20:13:37 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: it could make the software that is verifying the webmention post to itself
20:13:46 [rhiaro]
cwebber2: can't post to anythign else on a different port on localhost?
20:13:59 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: the attackers url can advertise a webmention endpoint, which can be anything including localhost, a port,
20:14:06 [eprodrom]
20:14:12 [rhiaro]
cwebber2: there are definitely security things with servers that allow you to access..
20:14:18 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: it's only ever going to post source and target
20:14:37 [rhiaro]
... I would be willing to add an exception that says if it encounters localhost or 127.* then drop it
20:14:40 [rhiaro]
... I'd be happy to put that in security considerations
20:14:46 [rhiaro]
... Maybe not obvoius, definitely specific to webmention
20:14:50 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: and don't repeat failures?
20:14:50 [hhalpin]
This seems to be a generic problem for any spec that has an 1) input and then 2) takes URLs from that input and GETs them.
20:14:54 [rhiaro]
... could be DOS
20:15:00 [rhiaro]
... do exponential backoff if you need to
20:15:08 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: definitely will put in about not sending to localhost
20:15:14 [hhalpin]
I mean, not sending webmention to localhost makes sense
20:15:21 [rhiaro]
sandro: I'm thinking of basically saying don't allow a webmention system to cross the firewall
20:15:28 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: firewall is a loose term
20:15:49 [rhiaro]
tantek: someone can publish an html document that has img src="localhost.../dosomething" you load that and it accesses your localhost
20:16:00 [rhiaro]
... or you can check the html spec and see what it says about image loading and how they treat that problem
20:16:07 [rhiaro]
... because cross domain images obviously work
20:16:13 [rhiaro]
... so that's one anagolous example
20:16:20 [rhiaro]
... Also, rel=stylesheet
20:16:27 [rhiaro]
... well defined, interoperable, well hardened
20:16:37 [rhiaro]
... Those are two places you could look to see how they solve this and copy taht
20:16:43 [sandro]
+1 tantek this is like the browser fetching an image or stylesheet
20:16:46 [rhiaro]
... if it's good enough for a browser it's good enough for webmention
20:16:48 [ben_thatmustbeme]
20:16:49 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: okay
20:16:51 [eprodrom]
20:16:58 [eprodrom]
ack annbass
20:16:58 [Zakim]
annbass, you wanted to ask same question that KevinMarks asked
20:17:01 [hhalpin]
+1 (but worth further thinking about)
20:17:03 [rhiaro]
annbass: KM asked the same question - how is this different than a regular hyperlink going out through the firewall
20:17:08 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: a hyperlink a person has to click on
20:17:11 [deiu]
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20:17:18 [hhalpin]
The trick is that the link is automatically ran
20:17:21 [hhalpin]
by the webmention spec
20:17:26 [rhiaro]
... this is a side effect of writing a blog post that links to an attackers url, but the person doesn't have to click the link
20:17:34 [tantek]
hhalpin, just like an image is automatically loaded
20:17:34 [rhiaro]
annbass: i see
20:17:38 [hhalpin]
although lots of other possible apps outside webmention could do this
20:17:48 [tantek]
image, iframes, scripts, stylesheets
20:17:49 [tantek]
20:17:54 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: but similar to receiving a phishing email and having a person click the link
20:18:09 [annbass]
s/anagolous /analogous /
20:18:10 [rhiaro]
... The result then is I'm going to find that language and it should clear it up
20:18:23 [wilkie]
even sandboxed iframes can do cross-domain GETs for stylesheets and scripts
20:18:48 [eprodrom]
20:18:52 [rhiaro]
20:18:59 [eprodrom]
20:19:22 [rhiaro]
... bengo had suggestion of discovery steps addition of having a 4th step checking a .well-known to find the webmention endpoint
20:19:32 [rhiaro]
... which lets you delegate an entire domain to a webmention endopint without having to add it as a link header
20:19:44 [rhiaro]
... Question is, is this worth it or is a http link header enough to support whole domain delegation
20:20:02 [Loqi]
Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]]
20:20:14 [rhiaro]
... One path forward is say: the http link header can be configured at the server level so that's enough to support server-wide delegation
20:20:31 [rhiaro]
... You're a large orgnaisation with many different subsystems, which is pretty common, wanting to have a single webmention endpoint across the whole thing
20:20:43 [rhiaro]
... the http link header can be configured at the server, not the software, so maybe that's enough
20:20:52 [rhiaro]
... Other option is to add this well-known and add it at-risk since ther eare no implementations right now
20:20:57 [rhiaro]
... See if anyone implements, and if not drop it
20:21:09 [rhiaro]
tantek: last time this came up we resolved to stick with follow your nose
20:21:13 [rhiaro]
... which this is not
20:21:32 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: I think bengos' arguement that this was new information is a use case that many different kinds of software installed that we hadn't considered when making that resolution
20:22:00 [eprodrom]
20:22:30 [rhiaro]
... My proposal to clos ethis with no action is justified by an http link header can be configured server wise
20:22:52 [rhiaro]
<rhiaro> DIdn't he also say something about not being able to configure the http header?
20:23:11 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: I think it's the same amount of work organisationally to add the .well-known path as it would to configure the link header
20:23:20 [hhalpin]
20:23:27 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: the link rel is registered and defined right? So since there is host-meta, the link is already there in http
20:23:38 [Karli]
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20:23:43 [rhiaro]
... if someone wants to go sniffing around and wants to try some bottom of the barrel ways to try it, there are ways for them to do it already with the link-rel
20:23:55 [rhiaro]
... The worst would be to say if you still can't find it try other ways of turning a link-rel into an endpoint
20:24:12 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: I'd rather not recommend another way for senders to find endpoints, there are already 3 and they have to do ALL of them
20:24:28 [rhiaro]
... And if you add a 4th they'll have to do that also and it's a very different mechanism
20:24:51 [rhiaro]
... Now you're dealing with parsing link headers (already non trivial), parsing html, then you'd have to also parse xml, also parse json
20:24:58 [rhiaro]
hhalpin: what are the current ones?
20:25:05 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: http link header, html link tag and html a tag
20:25:18 [rhiaro]
hhalpin: not being able to modify the link header is common if you don't have full control
20:25:22 [rhiaro]
... but then the a tag should work
20:25:40 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: if you do have full control you're in the same position to add .well-known as to create link header
20:25:59 [rhiaro]
hhalpin: but if you can create directoreis and put files in you can't add a link header
20:26:14 [rhiaro]
... but then the a tag should be fine
20:26:33 [rhiaro]
... In the normal web development world, lots of people don't even know link headers exist
20:26:38 [rhiaro]
... but almost everyone knows how to parse html
20:27:03 [rhiaro]
... As long as there's a way of putting it in without link headers
20:27:07 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: totally
20:27:19 [rhiaro]
sandro: my question si do you ever want to be able to do webmention on a jpeg withotu a link header
20:27:26 [rhiaro]
... I think that's not worth worryign about, but I can see that someone might think it is
20:27:28 [hhalpin]
I'm going to note that this came up with Objective8 and D-CENT
20:27:41 [hhalpin]
I.e. problems with Link headers (i.e. their developers didn't know HTTP Link headers existed)
20:27:42 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: sounds like we're okay with slight limitations with current discovery
20:27:48 [rhiaro]
... Which support vast majority of use cases
20:27:48 [hhalpin]
However, it was easy to get folks to add to the HTML
20:27:56 [rhiaro]
sandro: anything about how you have to parse html?
20:28:02 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: I think it just says to look for the rel
20:28:07 [rhiaro]
sandro: html5?
20:28:30 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: normatively references http link header 5988 and also says ... no doesn't reference html in discovery
20:28:37 [rhiaro]
sandro: so test suite should have corner cases about how it appears in html
20:28:44 [rhiaro]
... and how they differ in closing angle bracket missing etc
20:28:51 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: I have a ton of that test data already
20:29:33 [rhiaro]
20:29:37 [rhiaro]
... waiting on IANA to accept
20:29:43 [rhiaro]
... paragraph added to spec
20:29:52 [rhiaro]
20:30:03 [rhiaro]
... Just need to add, tried to do last night, didnt' get to it, but tantek threw some ideas my way so I should be able to do that now
20:30:07 [rhiaro]
... And done.
20:30:23 [rhiaro]
tantek: so you have all issues with a resolution, outstanding editing to do
20:30:32 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: these three require editing that we agreed to already that I need to do
20:30:50 [rhiaro]
... And then conformance requiremetns sectiion I don't have anything we can review right now but we're not going to cr so
20:30:54 [rhiaro]
tantek: add by when?
20:31:00 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: if we can agree to publish a new draft I can add it in that process
20:31:13 [rhiaro]
tantek: if you commit to adding one we can say publish it with the edits we've agreed to
20:31:17 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: yep
20:31:28 [rhiaro]
tantek: do you have a path forward on all issues?
20:31:28 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: yes
20:31:47 [rhiaro]
TOPIC: Resolutions to publish
20:32:08 [rhiaro]
tantek: we already resolved to publish new AS2 drafts with edits in the pipeline
20:32:16 [rhiaro]
... So any of the others things that editors want to publish new drafts of?
20:32:21 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: yes webmention
20:32:39 [rhiaro]
... I do have a change on micropub to register with iana, queued up, however not a lot of other changes, so I still would like to publish but it's not a huge change
20:32:54 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: activitypub?
20:33:10 [rhiaro]
... Does it make sense to make a resolution right now to publish with discussed edits?
20:33:31 [rhiaro]
tantek: do you want to give the group a chacne to review your changes before doing another resolution to publish, or are there enough changes the group already agreed to that you can publish once you make them
20:33:42 [rhiaro]
... Or do you want more time for those changes plus any others?
20:33:51 [rhiaro]
cwebber2: Okay we'll make those changes first that the group agreed to
20:33:55 [rhiaro]
... Then do more after that
20:34:07 [rhiaro]
tsyesika: we fix the bugs the group agreed to and publish
20:34:17 [rhiaro]
cwebber2: right, yes
20:34:28 [rhiaro]
tantek: one proposal?
20:35:13 [rhiaro]
PROPOSAL: Resolve to publish webmention, micropub and activitypub pending changes agreed by the wg this face-to-face
20:35:19 [ben_thatmustbeme]
20:35:25 [eprodrom]
20:35:27 [rhiaro]
20:35:27 [aaronpk]
20:35:28 [tantek]
20:35:28 [cwebber2]
20:35:29 [cwebber2]
20:35:30 [cwebber2]
20:35:35 [hhalpin]
20:35:37 [tsyesika]
20:35:44 [wilkie]
20:35:45 [sandro]
20:35:58 [rhiaro]
RESOLVED: Resolve to publish webmention, micropub and activitypub pending changes agreed by the wg this face-to-face
20:36:03 [KevinMarks_]
20:36:13 [rhiaro]
TOPIC: any other business
20:36:25 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: we have spare time, so anything else for next 25 minutes?
20:36:30 [rhiaro]
sandro: hopefully quick..
20:36:38 [rhiaro]
... I thought more about github spec labels yesterday and cut down to 10
20:36:41 [rhiaro]
... from 16
20:36:41 [sandro]
20:36:53 [sandro]
20:36:54 [rhiaro]
... It has its own issues
20:37:10 [hhalpin]
Quick notes, we have assembled a group of security/privacy experts to look at decentralization
20:37:32 [hhalpin]
And the W3C WebAuth group is likely to have one-factor cryptographic authentication in browsers end of this-year, early-next year
20:37:53 [hhalpin]
20:38:01 [KevinMarks_]
does the editor apply these or the commenter?
20:38:30 [hhalpin]
No changes needed by specs, but just resources and new W3C work
20:38:38 [rhiaro]
sandro: Editor, or someone with write access to repo
20:39:00 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: is there an action we can take now?
20:39:11 [rhiaro]
... Review them and deicde if we're going to apply them to our spec repos?
20:39:20 [rhiaro]
tantek: first 6 seems self explanatory
20:39:24 [rhiaro]
... What's process communiyt?
20:39:37 [rhiaro]
sandro: Where someone says "I don't understand how this group works"
20:39:44 [rhiaro]
... Not for the editors, but they come up
20:39:51 [rhiaro]
... "Let me speak to your manager"
20:40:04 [Loqi]
Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]]
20:40:13 [rhiaro]
tantek: I think we might need something stronger
20:40:18 [rhiaro]
... Like 'needs chair input' or something
20:40:38 [rhiaro]
cwebber2: what if it's just like "I'm not sure if this has somethign to do with it" and the editor doesn't know either
20:40:55 [rhiaro]
tantek: this is for the editor to say "this is not about my spec, this is a group issue, sending to chairs"
20:41:12 [rhiaro]
sandro: I like this being able to used by groups that aren't w3c, that's why I said 'process community' not chair, to generalise
20:41:38 [rhiaro]
annbass: but... your example where you said there were issues that were people saying they were being ignored, I was takign that to mean there's been some discomfort of different technical positions proposed and feeling like they're blown off
20:41:47 [rhiaro]
... THat's in a different category than waiting for management approval
20:41:47 [hhalpin]
20:41:57 [rhiaro]
tantek: that's "commentors are unsatisfied by response", that's there
20:42:17 [Karli]
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20:42:19 [rhiaro]
... The director will look at each one of these and see if the commetnor has merit
20:42:43 [rhiaro]
hhalpin: Do we need to note this unless there's a formal objection?
20:42:56 [rhiaro]
sandro: the director does like to knwo who is satisfied and who is unsatisfied
20:43:02 [rhiaro]
hhalpin: I've always just listed formal objections
20:43:27 [rhiaro]
sandro: talked to Philippe about this
20:44:38 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: are we comfortable with these labels?
20:44:50 [rhiaro]
tantek: "waiting for commentor" could mean two different things
20:45:02 [rhiaro]
sandro: ther'es not a lot o you can do until you hear back
20:45:14 [rhiaro]
tantek: could be differnet for open vs closed
20:45:29 [rhiaro]
sandro: if it's closed you might be waiting to see if they're satisfied or not
20:46:22 [rhiaro]
tantek: 'waiting for group input' -> 'needs group input'
20:46:23 [hhalpin]
I think we should note that people were unhappy, but if someone (unsatisfied commenter) proposes a technical solution and it doesn't meet the group's requirements (i.e. its not implemented, has no interest from more than one implementer, or has known technical flaws) then the group can argue simply than the unsatisfied commenter did not satisfiy the groups requirement.
20:46:49 [rhiaro]
... Do we really need the last one?
20:46:57 [rhiaro]
sandro: james used that tag sometimes
20:46:59 [rhiaro]
... on as2
20:47:04 [rhiaro]
... standard github one
20:47:09 [rhiaro]
... ('help')
20:47:24 [rhiaro]
tantek: is that pr requested?
20:47:32 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: 'happy to have this in there but I'm not gonna do it'
20:47:55 [rhiaro]
sandro: so, needs volunteer?
20:47:58 [rhiaro]
tantek: stronger than that
20:48:57 [rhiaro]
wilkie: point of entry for new people too
20:49:18 [rhiaro]
tantek: I like that
20:49:35 [rhiaro]
... If we can phrase it in a way that makes it welcoming for new folks
20:50:30 [rhiaro]
sandro: 'needs volunteer'
20:50:40 [rhiaro]
everyone: k
20:51:12 [rhiaro]
tantek: can we collapse the first two? commentor needs no response and satisfied by response
20:51:34 [rhiaro]
sandro: just 'commentor satsified'
20:53:22 [rhiaro]
*bikeshedding about colors of labels*
20:53:24 [KevinMarks_]
as opposed to Commenter Generally Unsatisified With Life?
20:54:41 [nicolagreco]
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20:54:52 [rhiaro]
20:55:18 [rhiaro]
tantek: do the editors understand these
20:55:23 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: what's the rule on timeout?
20:55:29 [rhiaro]
annbass: will there be a definition documented?
20:55:49 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: are there some I can't use without group consensus?
20:55:56 [rhiaro]
sandro: talk the group before doing a commentor timeout
20:56:16 [rhiaro]
... And expect that director will look at commentor satisifed and commentor not satisfied
20:56:27 [rhiaro]
aaronpk: and waiting for commentor?
20:56:39 [rhiaro]
sandro: before timeout, or waiting for more information before you can address the issue
20:57:37 [tsyesika] :)
20:57:53 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: resolved that, 3 minutes left
20:57:54 [rhiaro]
... AOB?
20:58:13 [rhiaro]
ben_thatmustbeme: if anyone wants to help co-write jf2 who knows more about writing specs?
20:58:15 [KevinMarks_]
I am happy to help
20:58:17 [rhiaro]
... Kevin had offered to help with it I think
20:58:17 [KevinMarks_]
20:59:02 [KevinMarks_]
jolly good
20:59:06 [rhiaro]
PROPOSED: make KevinMarks a coeditor of jf2
20:59:14 [rhiaro]
RESOLVED (by chairs): make KevinMarks a coeditor of jf2
20:59:57 [rhiaro]
eprodrom: no telecon next tuesday
21:00:04 [rhiaro]
... Next telecon 29th March
21:00:14 [rhiaro]
... Next f2f in Portland
21:00:19 [rhiaro]
... Any plans to do something social this evening?
21:00:34 [KevinMarks_]
good luck finding a quiet place tonight
21:00:40 [wilkie]
lol true
21:00:47 [rhiaro]
... End!
21:01:25 [rhiaro]
RRSAgent end meeting
21:01:49 [rhiaro]
RRSAgent, please end meeting
21:01:49 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'please end meeting', rhiaro. Try /msg RRSAgent help
21:02:09 [rhiaro]
RRSAgent, end meeting
21:02:09 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'end meeting', rhiaro. Try /msg RRSAgent help
21:02:24 [rhiaro]
RRSAgent, please generate minutes
21:02:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate rhiaro
21:11:55 [shevski]
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21:21:30 [jasnell_]
jasnell_ has joined #social
21:24:19 [jasnell__]
jasnell__ has joined #social
21:27:47 [jasnell_]
jasnell_ has joined #social
21:39:16 [nicolagreco]
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21:42:56 [ben_thatmustbeme]
trackbot end meeting
21:42:56 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
21:42:56 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been tantek, wilkie, dmitriz, rhiaro, aaronpk, shevski, ben_thatmustbeme, cwebber, tsyesika, sandro, Karli, AnnBass
21:43:04 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
21:43:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
21:43:05 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
21:43:05 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items