15:47:08 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #apa
15:47:08 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/03/16-apa-irc
15:47:10 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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15:47:12 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
15:47:12 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
15:47:13 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Platform Architectures Working Group Teleconference
15:47:13 <trackbot> Date: 16 March 2016
15:48:15 <janina> agenda?
15:48:20 <janina> agenda+ preview agenda with items from two minutes
15:48:20 <janina> agenda+ No call 23 March; Next APA call is 30 March
15:48:20 <janina> agenda+ Web Payments Teleconference Time -- Shane, Janina
15:48:20 <janina> agenda+ CSS Next Steps [See Below]
15:48:21 <janina> agenda+ W3C Spec Styling Issues -- Michael
15:48:22 <janina> agenda+ Actions Procedure Tweaks -- Janina, Michael
15:48:25 <janina> agenda+ Actions Review (Specs) https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/products/8
15:48:27 <janina> agenda+ new on TR http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html
15:48:30 <janina> agenda+ Other Business
15:48:32 <janina> agenda+ next and future meetings
15:48:35 <janina> agenda+ be done
15:58:04 <janina>  present+ Janina
16:00:35 <fesch> fesch has joined #apa
16:01:44 <janina> regrets: Michiel, Mary_Jo, Gottfried
16:01:50 <fesch> present+ fesch
16:02:33 <ShaneM> present + ShaneM
16:02:54 <cyns> cyns has joined #apa
16:07:00 <ShaneM> ScribeNick: ShaneM
16:07:04 <janina> zakim, next item
16:07:04 <Zakim> agendum 1. "preview agenda with items from two minutes" taken up [from janina]
16:07:55 <ShaneM> janina: moved the agenda around a little.
16:08:24 <ShaneM> Cyns: At CSun Cynthia and some others will be doing a panel talk about Edge.  1 pm on Wednesday.
16:08:32 <LJWatson> LJWatson has joined #apa
16:08:52 <LJWatson> present+ LJWatson
16:09:38 <ShaneM> Cyns: Should have a bunch of changes to accname coming in as a PR soon.
16:09:45 <Rich> Rich has joined #apa
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16:10:24 <MichaelC> present+ MichaelC
16:10:43 <Rich> prest+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:11:11 <MichaelC> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:11:17 <JF> Present+ JF
16:11:36 <ShaneM> LJWatson: bug triage meeting for a11y stuff in web platform thursday at 15:00 UTC
16:11:54 <ShaneM> ... migrating issues from bugzilla into github
16:12:42 <ShaneM> zakim, next item
16:12:42 <Zakim> agendum 2. "No call 23 March; Next APA call is 30 March" taken up [from janina]
16:13:36 <ShaneM> zakim, close item 2
16:13:36 <Zakim> agendum 2, No call 23 March; Next APA call is 30 March, closed
16:13:37 <Zakim> I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:13:37 <Zakim> 3. Web Payments Teleconference Time -- Shane, Janina [from janina]
16:13:40 <ShaneM> zakim, take up item 3
16:13:40 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Web Payments Teleconference Time -- Shane, Janina" taken up [from janina]
16:14:22 <ShaneM> janina: only 3 responses of who will participate. Janina, Katie, and Shane
16:14:41 <ShaneM> <michael looks at poll>
16:15:09 <ShaneM> Monday at 1 pm is the best
16:16:18 <ShaneM> Starting 4 April meet at 1 pm mondays to work on PAUR
16:16:22 <ShaneM> Michael to set up webex
16:16:32 <ShaneM> zakim, next item
16:16:32 <Zakim> agendum 4. "CSS Next Steps" taken up [from See Below]
16:17:30 <ShaneM> If there are people at CSun who can assist in working with CSS we should recruit them.
16:17:43 <ShaneM> Beyond that, are there any thoughts on how we should move forward?
16:17:48 <ShaneM> <crickets>
16:18:39 <cyns> Will continue to work internally with Rossen, who is on the same team as me
16:19:10 <ShaneM> ShaneM: asked about outstanding issues
16:19:17 <cyns> oh and my CSUN talk is at 11:00 not 1pm!
16:19:21 <ShaneM> Janina: Matt King asked that we nail it down.
16:19:45 <ShaneM> Maybe we should get involved in a mappings guide for the key aspects of CSS that apply to reading order.
16:19:52 <ShaneM> ... and possibly something about keyboard mappings.
16:20:23 <ShaneM> If there was something we could do about best practices to help ATs work well with CSS features, that might be useful too.
16:20:43 <ShaneM> fesch: They really need to fill the hole between their new features and the mappings.
16:20:57 <ShaneM> janina: they may not know enough about how to do that.  We would need to help with it.
16:21:10 <ShaneM> ... and we are already overburdened with all of the AAMs already.
16:21:17 <ShaneM> fesch: Might get ARIA to do that work.
16:21:31 <ShaneM> janina: Yes - Rich thought so as well but wasn't very excited about it.
16:21:36 <Rich> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:21:45 <ShaneM> fesch: Not to do the work; just help CSS understand what they need to do.
16:22:08 <ShaneM> Rich: Yes, the group is buried.  There are 5 mapping specs.  The ARIA spec, DPub, Graphics.
16:22:27 <ShaneM> janina: and also Personalization...
16:22:58 <janina> q?
16:23:29 <ShaneM> Rich: it is somewhat difficult to work with the different mindset.  There may not be energy to do that.
16:23:54 <ShaneM> janina: the best way to help with mindset changes is dialog.  If we need more energy we need more people!
16:25:20 <ShaneM> Rich: there's a lot of additional data coming down the pipe.  Personalization, web components, the indie ui pieces...
16:25:54 <ShaneM> Rich: There was an assumption that CSS wanted media queries.  In the last meeting it seems that is no longer the case.
16:26:15 <ShaneM> ... maybe the thing to do is coordinate with the TAG a way to have some sort of announcement and selection mechanism.
16:26:18 <janina> q?
16:32:31 <ShaneM> agenda+ Accessible SVG in W3C Specs
16:33:40 <ShaneM> zakim, next item
16:33:40 <Zakim> agendum 5. "W3C Spec Styling Issues -- Michael" taken up [from janina]
16:34:07 <ShaneM> All sorts of styling issues with the new w3c house styles
16:34:31 <ShaneM> Surprised by about the ToC on the left.
16:34:35 <janina> q?
16:35:21 <ShaneM> ShaneM: JF you reviewed the A11Y of new w3c house styles. opinions?
16:36:14 <ShaneM> Floating ToC has its utility.
16:36:24 <ShaneM> cyns: I like the new ToC.
16:36:42 <ShaneM> JF: I had some concerns about colors.  Color contrast requirements.  That was the feedback I provided.
16:36:54 <ShaneM> q+ to talk about the a11y of layout
16:37:14 <ShaneM> MichaelC: did we have the opportunity to review?
16:37:23 <ShaneM> JF: we had it.  Did we do it?  Formally?  I don't know.
16:37:49 <ShaneM> ack ShaneM
16:37:49 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to talk about the a11y of layout
16:39:06 <ShaneM> MichaelC: visual presentation a11y is something we care about too.
16:39:59 <ShaneM> MichaelC: concerned about keyboard a11y of the Toc and its widgets
16:40:13 <ShaneM> cyns: Having the ToC there all the time is a major win for reading disabilities.
16:41:44 <ShaneM> ShaneM: ToC widgets are at the top of the DOM
16:42:08 <ShaneM> ... so keyboard navigation is something that may not be super intuitive.
16:44:50 <ShaneM> Rich: the registered trademark is not legible in the logo
16:44:58 <ShaneM> JF: images are exempt from color contrast
16:45:12 <ShaneM> janina: we should identify and report bugs and things that are problematic.
16:45:43 <ShaneM> janina: next time I will chase more groups about review
16:45:48 <ShaneM> zakim, take up item 12
16:45:48 <Zakim> agendum 12. "Accessible SVG in W3C Specs" taken up [from ShaneM]
16:46:38 <ShaneM> ShaneM: how can we produce accessible diagrams using SVG today?
16:47:00 <ShaneM> fesch: we are looking at this in the task force.  Some of them are very very hard to do anything good.
16:47:21 <ShaneM> .. but if there is one you can assign a task to someone in the task force to assist with making it accessible.
16:47:49 <ShaneM> ... some are relatively easy.  Some are so difficult it causes redoing the whole graphic.
16:48:11 <ShaneM> ... we are looking at producing an authoring document to assist people.
16:48:20 <ShaneM> cyns: are there WCAG techniques for SVG?
16:48:23 <ShaneM> MichaelC: no.
16:48:46 <ShaneM> fesch: I forgot to do that.  I am supposed to start a new one and people are going to start populating it.  But it will not be useful until ARIA 1.1 is released.
16:49:04 <ShaneM> ... anytime we see one throw it over the fence and someone will eventually get to it.
16:49:06 <JF> Q+
16:49:34 <ShaneM> ack JF
16:49:45 <ShaneM> JF: this problem is not exclusive to SVG.
16:50:04 <ShaneM> ... we steer people to using SVG, but PNG and other formats are being embedded and those are not accessible either.
16:50:31 <ShaneM> ... there is a heavy usage of imagery now.  And those might not even have alt text or longer descriptions.
16:51:10 <ShaneM> janina: we should put our foot down.  The documents must be accessible.  Everything should have alt at the very least.  We should be encouraging people to drop PNG and JPEG in favor of SVG.
16:51:17 <ShaneM> JF: do we have a resource that we can point people to
16:51:51 <ShaneM> ... sometimes we talk about guidance to working groups.  THis is the sort of thing that we should be providing guidance on.
16:52:05 <ShaneM> ... is there a technical resource so we can "teach them to fish"?
16:52:39 <ShaneM> cyns: There's two things.  1) it is just a web page and they should be using WCAG and there should be techniques.
16:52:47 <Rich> q?
16:53:33 <ShaneM> Rich: implementation of SVG across browsers was inconsistent and incomplete
16:53:52 <ShaneM> ... so that needs to get sorted first before we can start recommending good techniques.
16:54:21 <ShaneM> ... walk before we can run.   We don't have all the tools today to make the drawing accessible.  And if we did, on some browsers it doesn't even get exposed.
16:54:41 <ShaneM> ... one thing we could potentially do is provide alternative text to drawings in the short term.
16:55:12 <ShaneM> fesch: at one point I proposed figures and figcaptions in the short term.  Some people on the task force dont like that
16:55:41 <ShaneM> cyns: you don't need to have only one technique.  fig/figcaption is fine.  describedby is also fine. More sophisticated things might be fine.
16:55:43 <janina> q?
16:56:30 <ShaneM> Rich: There are holes in the SVG spec where it is not accurately specified what is supposed to be done (e.g., titles in multiple languages).  We are having to fix some of that too.
16:56:55 <ShaneM> LJWatson: I have some guidance I wrote a couple of years ago on this.  Wouldn't be hard to contribute that to W3C.
16:57:25 <ShaneM> janina: There is a page in WAI that could be a place for that document.
16:57:32 <ShaneM> Rich: note there is no longdesc in SVG.
16:57:42 <ShaneM> LJWatson: yes - that's why I said longer description.
16:58:05 <ShaneM> cyns: WCAG techniques is the right place for this.
16:58:17 <ShaneM> LJWatson: I started writing some but have not contributed them yet.
16:58:31 <ShaneM> janina: I am trying to find the WAI resource so I can put it in the minutes.
16:58:42 <ShaneM> MichaelC: is it a wiki page?
16:58:44 <ShaneM> janina: Yes.
16:59:26 <ShaneM> MichaelC: WAI tutorials...
16:59:32 <MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/images/
17:00:51 <ShaneM> cyns: Is the stuff rich is producing actually what people making diagrams need?
17:01:04 <ShaneM> rrsagent, make minutes
17:01:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/16-apa-minutes.html ShaneM
17:01:13 <fesch> fesch has left #apa
17:01:17 <ShaneM> rrsagent, make log public
17:01:25 <ShaneM> zakim, who was here
17:01:25 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who was here', ShaneM
17:01:31 <ShaneM> zakim, who is here?
17:01:31 <Zakim> Present: Janina, fesch, LJWatson, MichaelC, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, JF
17:01:33 <Zakim> On IRC I see JF, Rich, LJWatson, Zakim, RRSAgent, joanie, MichielBijl, MichaelC, ShaneM, slightlyoff, janina, trackbot
17:01:40 <ShaneM> chair: janina
17:01:45 <Rich> Rich has left #apa
17:02:03 <ShaneM> rrsagent, make minutes
17:02:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/16-apa-minutes.html ShaneM
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