15:07:22 RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag 15:07:22 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/03/15-wai-wcag-irc 15:07:24 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:07:26 Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG 15:07:26 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 15:07:27 Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 15:07:27 Date: 15 March 2016 15:07:40 Chair: AWK 15:07:51 Scribe: jon_Avila 15:08:04 zakim, take up next 15:08:04 agendum 4. "Future guidelines work discussion" taken up [from AWK] 15:08:19 Zakim, close item 5 15:08:19 agendum 5, Update from mobile and Cognitive TFs, closed 15:08:20 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:08:20 4. Future guidelines work discussion [from AWK] 15:08:41 Zakim, close item 4 15:08:41 agendum 4, Future guidelines work discussion, closed 15:08:42 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:08:42 6. COGA update [from AWK] 15:08:50 Zakim, take up item 7 15:08:50 agendum 7. "QuickRef Survey (https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/1/2016quickrefapproval/results)" taken up [from AWK] 15:09:28 awk: looking to publish by CSUN the updates to quickref 15:09:45 Mike_Elledge has joined #wai-wcag 15:10:08 JF has joined #wai-wcag 15:10:33 awk: looks like between EO and WCAG have approved with some minor comments about link to previous version 15:11:16 yatil: older version will be in a date space, each one will point to the other with a box at top right. Old will be available -- but not sure how long 15:11:59 Present+ JF 15:12:34 awk: Short and most publicized link will go to new one - there will be a link to the old one. We would only hopefully focus on updating new one. 15:13:10 david: got good reports yesterday when he was teaching 15:14:01 david: question about CPATCHA being being first 15:14:11 erice: may be a bug he can take care of 15:14:28 david: do others like cross out of tags? 15:14:38 awk: Kim also commented on that as it could be confusing for some 15:15:46 erice: contrast was too low on other states -- so cross out was compromise. Open for discussion in future 15:16:16 david: wonder if we can give Eric editorial freedom to change things without going through formal process 15:16:33 awk: Any other thoughts? 15:16:49 awk: Any objections to approve the publication of the new How to meet resource? 15:16:57 david: applause for Eric 15:17:12 Thanks Eric. Great work. 15:17:35 awk: still need to go through WCAG CFC process. Would imagine it would go through well. Will send out after this call. Should then be closed by 12:35 on Thursday 15:17:58 RESOLUTION: Approve publication of WCAG quickref 15:19:15 michaelC: Plan to announce quickref on Thursday with some other materials for WCAG. 15:21:13 awk: Lisa not here at moment to talk about COGA updates. Possibly due to time change 15:21:36 awk: sent out another survey for attendance to TPAC 15:21:39 Agenda+ TPAC survey 15:21:46 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/WCAGTPAC2016/ 15:21:47 Zakim, take up item 10 15:21:47 agendum 10. "TPAC survey" taken up [from AWK_] 15:22:11 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/WCAGTPAC2016/ 15:22:20 awk: trying to get additional information about what we are going to do at TPAC 15:22:33 Wayne has joined #wai-wcag 15:22:45 awk: will send around to task forces as well. We will likely need some joint time together 15:23:41 kathy: important to know if we are doing things for the task force. The sooner we know that is important 15:25:32 Q+ to mention CSUN 15:25:49 awk: might be too soon to have a lot of content to talk about at CSUN. But come TPAC there should be a lot of material to target and meet together to finish that off if it is not already completed 15:26:07 ack j 15:26:07 JF, you wanted to mention CSUN 15:26:42 jf: was some discussion Monday about CSUN about what we are planning to do and share that at CSUN 15:27:05 jf: group met on Monday and plan to meet again Friday to talk about future of guidelines. Sent out info on lists 15:27:49 jf: based on where we were on Friday would look at doing something at CSUN to share thought process and get feedback. Still committed to reporting to group on April 5 15:27:56 awk: to wrap up TPAC, any other questions? 15:28:29 present+ wayne 15:28:41 Agenda+ CSUN 15:28:46 Zakim, open item 11 15:28:46 agendum 11. "CSUN" taken up [from AWK_] 15:29:34 awk: regarding CSUN. No official CSUN meeting. No call next week as people are out and traveling. But as far as work you, Sarah, Alistair, and others are invovled with that sounds great. Won't be at CSUN until Wednesday evening 15:29:45 awk: no official room or anything 15:30:07 jamesn has joined #wai-wcag 15:30:07 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Main_Page/DesigningWCAG2.next 15:30:24 jf: just pasted wiki page where we are collecting work 15:31:14 rrsagent, make minutes 15:31:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/15-wai-wcag-minutes.html jamesn 15:31:31 jf: could setup space at Deque or TPG. Try to earmark specific time. Involve everyone to get into discussion. Doesn't have to be constrained to time or timeframe 15:32:09 awk: any questions? 15:33:25 awk: question that came up to Judy as email called it a workshop about a new version. We need to clarify what it is and future development and making proposals for consideration 15:34:14 jf: can work on draft email to share with awk and then share more widely 15:34:25 Zakim, agenda? 15:34:25 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda: 15:34:26 6. COGA update [from AWK] 15:34:26 7. QuickRef Survey (https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/1/2016quickrefapproval/results) [from AWK] 15:34:26 8. Timelines planning [from AWK_] 15:34:26 9. Github issues [from AWK_] 15:34:26 10. TPAC survey [from AWK_] 15:34:26 11. CSUN [from AWK_] 15:34:47 awk: Lisa just joined 15:34:54 present+ Lisa 15:35:06 Zakim, take up item 6 15:35:07 agendum 6. "COGA update" taken up [from AWK] 15:35:20 Zakim, close item 7 15:35:20 agendum 7, QuickRef Survey (https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/1/2016quickrefapproval/results), closed 15:35:22 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:35:22 6. COGA update [from AWK] 15:35:25 Zakim, close item 10 15:35:25 agendum 10, TPAC survey, closed 15:35:26 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:35:26 6. COGA update [from AWK] 15:35:31 Zakim, close item 11 15:35:31 agendum 11, CSUN, closed 15:35:32 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:35:32 6. COGA update [from AWK] 15:36:14 Lisa: came before for first working draft roadmap, links to references, and it had been suggested that try to bring those documents to draft together, 15:36:50 lisa: We have some edited version of gap analysis and roadmap document and points to wiki page with latest version of papers. Running into CSUN time and some editorial work to be done. Not yet ready to come back to the group 15:37:26 Lisa: hoping in next two weeks documents will be ready to come back to WCAG WG and then later for issues papers for publications. So don't want to delay all papers for some that aren't ready 15:37:48 lisa: Working on large tables to point back to dependent documents. Apologize for the delay 15:38:39 Lisa_Seeman has joined #wai-wcag 15:38:55 https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/gap-analysis/ 15:39:19 https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/issue-papers/index.html 15:39:43 lisa: some items that have not made it onto list 15:40:10 awk: anything you Lisa need from us? 15:40:44 lisa: we want to meet at TPAC 15:41:26 lisa: will need meeting room so we can talk to different groups 15:42:18 Ryladog has joined #wai-wcag 15:42:34 awk: Do think we will have a need for the main working group to discuss the new and existing success criteria. There seems like a lot of value in a substantial chunk of time to meet jointly with WCAG 15:42:49 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/WCAGTPAC2016/ 15:42:54 awk: Does COGA need it's own space for portion of time and then join WCAG for portion of time 15:43:09 Present+ Katie Haritos-Shea 15:43:39 s/Katie Haritos/Katie_Haritos 15:43:48 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:43:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/15-wai-wcag-minutes.html yatil 15:43:53 q+ 15:44:03 ack m 15:44:07 Joshue has joined #wai-wcag 15:44:09 lisa: would like time as TF to work around tricky issues. We could meet at ends and then meet with other groups in middle 15:44:18 trackbot, start meeting 15:44:20 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:44:22 Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG 15:44:22 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 15:44:23 Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 15:44:23 Date: 15 March 2016 15:44:51 MichaelC: COGA is sponsored by two working groups -- space is allocated to working groups. May then request 4 days of rooms and then allocate between WG and TFs 15:45:02 awk: will email with TF chairs around that 15:45:30 awk: Thank you Lisa for your update 15:45:57 Zakim, close item 6 15:45:57 agendum 6, COGA update, closed 15:45:58 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:45:58 8. Timelines planning [from AWK_] 15:46:08 Zakim, take up item 8 15:46:08 agendum 8. "Timelines planning" taken up [from AWK_] 15:47:19 awk: timelines planning. Really and update about conversations that we were having. (Michael, Josh, and myself) and trying to figure out possible implications of different options such as WCAG 2.1, etc. 3.0, etc. 15:48:13 zakim, agenda? 15:48:13 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda: 15:48:14 8. Timelines planning [from AWK_] 15:48:14 9. Github issues [from AWK_] 15:48:30 awk: and to include errata. Thinking that we could decide to go with 2.1 route. Would be possible but agressive to have solid draft in 9 months. 15:48:45 awk: and at the same time having requirements for a 3.0 around that same time. That's basically around the end of the year. 15:49:13 awk: that means we would need first draft in 3 months from now 15:49:38 s/first draft in 3/first draft of requirements in 3/ 15:49:56 Q+ to ask Andrew how this discussion and the workshop work we are doing now integrate? 15:50:12 ak JF 15:50:25 should look at edited recommendation before that -- edited req in June -- send out for public review prior to that. 15:50:56 q+ 15:51:05 aCK jf 15:51:05 JF, you wanted to ask Andrew how this discussion and the workshop work we are doing now integrate? 15:51:06 awk: seems agressive. Seems like there is a lot of work and parallel work. Also meets rechartering WCAG in a year and getting these done in the process. Nothing decided or determined. Just in the spirit of being aware we wanted to update you. 15:51:37 q+ 15:51:54 awk: think about some of possible things that might come up from JF's work so we can anticipate that. 15:52:55 q+ 15:52:58 jf: sounds like three things, WCAG 2.1, 3.0, and potential rechartering. Do those need to be linked. Can we start working on first and thoughts on second so that when the old charter expires the new charter can be handled. 15:53:04 q+ 15:53:08 Katie: there is also errata, etc. and other things 15:53:18 q? 15:53:22 ack r 15:53:22 katie: can we start working on those now without recharter? 15:53:28 ack m 15:53:59 michaelC: we don't have to recharter to do exploratory work. Current charter does not expire for 2.5 years. Getting signals that we should recharter sooner. 15:54:00 ack li 15:54:19 q+ 15:54:26 q+ 15:54:30 lisa: How does this affect extensions 15:55:01 q+ to address extension timelines 15:55:44 q- 15:55:45 I am on this task force/group 15:55:49 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/cognitive-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposal_for_WCAG 15:55:57 awk: part of the plan is that all of the work the TF are doing will be integrated -- how it will be integrated is what we will be discussion. For example, some would be at 2.1 level and some at a 3.0 level 15:56:29 lisa: put in link of WCAG proposal that they are updating. 15:56:49 michaelc: extensions inform what we are looking at 15:57:08 awk: more specifically we need the delta - what is missing at a fine grain level 15:57:29 ack me 15:57:35 ack jo 15:57:36 michaelC: would like to see us publish extension. One way is to try to publish extensions. 15:58:44 josh: +1 to michaelC as we chartered to do that and that would help us understand. We would like to see something sooner than later. No pressure for perfect things -- but we want to see candidates 15:58:50 ack jf 15:59:02 https://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/ 15:59:28 jf: at risk of sounding like a broken record. Can we get clear definition of extension. See people producing extension and it includes techniques and success criteria. 15:59:38 josh: Yes, that's it, it extensions the reach of WCAG 15:59:50 jf: not seen how we will deal with conflicts 16:00:13 An extension is a list of Guidelines, success criteria, techniques, and best practices that go beyond the requirements of WCAG 2 16:00:22 josh: if we produce the candidates then we can see the conflicts and measure the conflict and proposals 16:00:50 jf: all I can say with respect that we are getting cart in front of horse. Asking people to publish SC 16:00:53 q+ 16:00:56 q+ 16:01:05 josh: Yes, let's publish draft. Until we put them forth we can't see conflicts 16:01:13 q+ 16:01:50 jf: when I hear publish I hear taking it to rec 16:01:56 josh: that is premature 16:02:02 ack wa 16:02:06 Wayne- 16:02:21 ack lisa 16:02:29 q- Wayne 16:02:37 An extension is a list of Guidelines, success criteria, techniques, and best practices that go beyond the requirements of WCAG 2 16:02:51 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:02:51 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/15-wai-wcag-minutes.html Joshue 16:02:52 david: like to propose a def of an extension. A list of guidesline, SC, techniques, and BP that go beyond the requirements of WCAG 2 16:02:54 Disagree 16:02:56 awk: disagree with that 16:03:29 q+ 16:03:29 awk: extensions are normative, so it would not include techniques and best practices, it would be success criteria and how they fit into the guidelines. 16:03:34 +1 SCs and new GLs 16:03:42 q+ 16:03:52 q- 16:03:53 awk: new guidelines and new SC and conformance details 16:04:00 ack da 16:04:23 david: don't disagree with that -- in WCAG we also have non-normative resources that we would need 16:04:36 awk: the extension is the normative documents, the techniques would be separate resources that support 16:04:39 david: no disagreement there 16:04:52 jf: just heard Josh saying we wouldn't go to rec so they are not normative 16:04:54 in the end, the will be 16:05:16 jf: is the goal to define normative language. If they are experiments we can't say they are normative. 16:05:52 michaelC: we are allowed to publish rec track documents that could be abandoned. It allows and to some point requires us to publish on the rec track 16:07:10 awk: primary fruits of TF are to find out where the items fit into WCAG 2.1, WCAG 3 or somewhere else. WE need to find where the requirements slot into 16:07:22 q? 16:07:25 awk: if we can't get approval for 2.1 then we have to look for extensions because it is the best available route. 16:07:51 awk: if we can get approval for 2.1 then we have made our case to others that we need it and those additions would be routed through that channel instead. 16:08:22 jf: hearing all kinds of contradictions. Sometimes need to let the group do the good work. Love seeing the proposed SC language 16:08:38 q+ 16:08:46 jf: concerned about user specific criteria 16:08:50 q+ 16:09:09 jf: that has not gone through WCAG WG to evaluate how it works for other users. 16:09:21 jf: let's talk at CSUN and present on April 5th and continue discussion 16:09:32 q+ 16:09:48 awk: not willing to tell people to stop before we figure things out. We want them to continue. 16:09:59 jf: support that statement -- don't want to stop forward movement 16:10:04 ack r 16:10:33 katie: most SC are aimed at user group. 16:10:48 q+ 16:10:54 Jon_avila: Disagree that SC are based on a user group. Many apply across groups 16:11:03 ack wa 16:12:04 wayne: when we run into conflict we need to allow for adjustment -- conflict means we have to have solve problem to structure data so we can meet different user's needs 16:12:11 ack lisa 16:13:20 q- 16:13:21 ack kathy 16:13:23 lisa: if you are meeting and relevant to extension could you do it on a day that I work and send me an invite 16:13:36 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Main_Page/DesigningWCAG2.next 16:13:39 jf: we met on Monday, we will met at 9am Friday Boston time. 16:15:22 my voice is gone 16:15:35 there is also a clock change 16:15:42 so it might be 4 16:16:01 Zakim, close item 8 16:16:01 agendum 8, Timelines planning, closed 16:16:02 I see 1 item remaining on the agenda: 16:16:02 9. Github issues [from AWK_] 16:16:08 Zakim, take up item 9 16:16:08 agendum 9. "Github issues" taken up [from AWK_] 16:16:11 https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues 16:16:42 awk: need people to jump in and sign up 16:17:23 awk: Have one on table captions submitted by Sailesh 16:17:36 awk: Any volunteers? Anyone who loves tables? 16:18:52 awk: 149 is around ARIA 7 and ARIA 9 and other user agent support 16:19:53 q? 16:19:56 q+ 16:20:10 awk: do we need to update the accessibility support info for all of these techniques 16:20:27 ack me 16:20:43 q+ 16:20:48 awk: who feels passionately, should we let that go for a while, or solicite outside assistance 16:21:06 ack dav 16:21:09 josh: could ask responder to provide suggestions 16:21:44 david: never intended to be gate keepers of accessibility support database. We thought someone was going to take this one and the database never rally happened. It's not really our role. 16:22:06 ack d 16:22:06 david: recommend doing boilerplate across AT support section to indicate that you need to do your own testing. 16:22:43 q? 16:23:04 awk: assigned to Josh so you can provide response and then we need to settle proposal with working group 16:23:36 josh: asked him to provide some suggestions to group. Not sure we have the bandwidth to do at the AT database project 16:24:21 awk: 131 C7 - change needed in CSS code. Kathy had commented about providing code for visually hiding content. 16:25:13 * people must be on mute 16:25:38 it does 16:25:39 assign me. 16:26:17 awk: got a bunch that are ready for survey. Some are thorny issues and may require a lot of work to fix something 16:26:39 awk: a solution might be document it now but we can't deal with it now but will deal with it in the future. 16:27:30 Enjoy CSUN those of you going. 16:27:35 Sadly I won't be there this time 16:27:39 awk: see some people at CSUN. JF are organizing a meeting for Friday and we will talk after CSUN at normal time 16:27:54 thanks Alistair 16:28:02 JF: Won't be changing time - we will put out meetings. Trying best o keep open and public. 16:28:21 present+ Joshue 16:28:21 zakim, list attendees 16:28:21 As of this point the attendees have been Michael_Cooper, Alastair_Campbell, Andrew_Kirkpatrick, Joshue_O_Connor, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Kim_Dirks, Laura_Carlson, Lisa_Seeman, 16:28:25 ... Mike_Elledge, Moe_Kraft, Rakesh_Paladugula, Sarah_Horton, Wayne_Dick, MoeKraft, David, AWK, marcjohlic, JamesNurthen, JF, Joshue108, jon_avila, AlastairC, EricE, Elledge, 16:28:25 ... Sarah_Swierenga, Srini, Dirks, Makoto, Joshue, Greg_Lowney, MichaelC, Kathy, Jim, John_Kirkwood, JimA, Sarah, MacDonald, Haritos-Shea 16:28:52 RRSagent, make minutes 16:28:52 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/15-wai-wcag-minutes.html jon_avila 16:29:11 trackbot, end meeting 16:29:11 Zakim, list attendees 16:29:11 As of this point the attendees have been Michael_Cooper, Alastair_Campbell, Andrew_Kirkpatrick, Joshue_O_Connor, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Kim_Dirks, Laura_Carlson, Lisa_Seeman, 16:29:15 ... Mike_Elledge, Moe_Kraft, Rakesh_Paladugula, Sarah_Horton, Wayne_Dick, MoeKraft, David, AWK, marcjohlic, JamesNurthen, JF, Joshue108, jon_avila, AlastairC, EricE, Elledge, 16:29:15 ... Sarah_Swierenga, Srini, Dirks, Makoto, Joshue, Greg_Lowney, MichaelC, Kathy, Jim, John_Kirkwood, JimA, Sarah, MacDonald, Haritos-Shea 16:29:19 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 16:29:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/15-wai-wcag-minutes.html trackbot 16:29:20 RRSAgent, bye 16:29:20 I see no action items