15:50:31 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y
15:50:31 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/03/10-mobile-a11y-irc
15:50:33 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:50:33 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #mobile-a11y
15:50:35 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF
15:50:35 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
15:50:36 <trackbot> Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:50:36 <trackbot> Date: 10 March 2016
15:50:42 <Kim> chair: Kathleen_Wahlbin
15:50:58 <Kim> agenda+ Brief wiki tour https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Main_Page
15:50:59 <Kim> agenda+ Review assignments http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Technique_Development_Assignments
15:51:01 <Kim> agenda+ Proposed text for introduction
15:51:02 <Kim> https://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/#intro
15:51:04 <Kim> agenda+  Revisions to  2.5.3, M029 -  https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_revision_of_2.5.3   https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/M029
15:51:05 <Kim> agenda+.  Look at proposed 2.7 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Speech_Input_Accessibility_%28Guideline_2.7%29
15:51:07 <Kim> agenda+  Next steps – next meeting March 17
15:51:38 <Henny> Henny has joined #mobile-a11y
15:51:48 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #mobile-a11y
15:52:01 <Kim> regrets+ Detlev, Alan
15:59:51 <chriscm> chriscm has joined #mobile-a11y
16:01:55 <agarrison> agarrison has joined #mobile-a11y
16:02:06 <agarrison> Present+ Alistair
16:03:34 <Kathy> Kathy has joined #mobile-a11y
16:03:40 <Kathy> present+ Kathy
16:04:42 <agarrison> present+ alistair
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16:05:18 <jeanne> present+ jeanne
16:05:29 <Henny> present+ henny
16:05:41 <Kathy> scribe: chriscm
16:05:58 <Kim> zakim, take up next
16:05:58 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Brief wiki tour https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Main_Page" taken up [from Kim]
16:06:42 <chriscm> present+ chriscm
16:06:53 <David> David has joined #mobile-a11y
16:06:55 <marcjohlic> present+ marcjohlic
16:07:25 <chriscm> kim: let's take a look at the wiki, it's been reorganized a bit.
16:07:27 <David> could you drop the link in again
16:07:54 <Kathy> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Main_Page
16:09:28 <MichaelC> present+ MichaelC
16:09:46 <chriscm> marc: new organization looks better
16:09:47 <MichaelC> MichaelC has left #mobile-a11y
16:09:50 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #mobile-a11y
16:10:02 <chriscm> zakim, take up next
16:10:02 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Review assignments http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Technique_Development_Assignments" taken up [from Kim]
16:10:32 <chriscm> kim: Any questions about current assignments?
16:11:12 <chriscm> Marc: Has some projects that are winding down, more time to make progress.
16:12:36 <chriscm> Chriscm: Waiting on status of survey for m29
16:12:39 <chriscm> zakim, take up next
16:12:39 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Proposed text for introduction" taken up [from Kim]
16:13:11 <Kim> https://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/#intro
16:14:56 <chriscm> jeanne: Wanted to put some information in the intro for discussion to clarify.  When John Folliot joined, he was confused over our purpose.
16:15:24 <chriscm> KathyW: It hasn't been decided how our work would be integrated with WCAG and how it will be structured.
16:15:41 <chriscm> KathyW: Anything to do with WCAG will likely need to be stripped out, and we should only deal with mobile.
16:17:16 <chriscm> KathyW: People are getting hung up on our numbering system, stemming from WCAG elements.  We may need to propose new success criteria, extensions, or combinations of those approaches.
16:17:30 <chriscm> KathyW: We may actually be starting WCAG 2.1
16:17:53 <chriscm> KathyW: Regardless of the approach, the purpose of the document needs to be more clear.
16:18:09 <chriscm> Jeanne: That's just an editorial issue.  Can be tackled at a later date.
16:18:33 <chriscm> Jeanne: We need to agree on the introduction paragraph.
16:19:04 <David> q+
16:19:34 <chriscm> Kim: I like it, I like that you added mobile applications.
16:20:08 <chriscm> David: if we do roll into 2.1.1 when we come back to working group, it will be unlikely that we can apply it to web applications.
16:20:54 <marcjohlic> Q+
16:21:06 <agarrison> q+
16:21:28 <chriscm> Jeanne: Let's not make that assumption.
16:22:25 <MichaelC> q+ to say need to not constrain creativity, but also need realistic expectations and not take personally if WCAG WG defers some aspects
16:22:43 <chriscm> q+
16:22:45 <Henny> q+
16:23:07 <Kathy> ack David
16:23:10 <Kathy> q?
16:23:13 <chriscm> How do I increment the queue?
16:23:33 <chriscm> Marc: With the 508 refresh, having guidelines that apply makes sense.
16:23:45 <David> q+
16:24:11 <Kathy> ack marcjohlic
16:24:18 <chriscm> Michael: mobile applications is too broad.
16:24:47 <jeanne> s/ Michael: mobile applications is too broad./Alistair: mobile applications is too broad.
16:24:58 <Kathy> ack agarrison
16:25:05 <MichaelC> ack me
16:25:05 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say need to not constrain creativity, but also need realistic expectations and not take personally if WCAG WG defers some aspects
16:25:41 <David> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#webpagedef
16:25:49 <chriscm> Michael: don't constrain creativity.  Some aspects may be restrained for very specific reasons.
16:26:15 <David> https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/
16:27:00 <Kathy> ack MichaelC
16:27:16 <jeanne> +1 Michael
16:27:39 <Kim> +1 Michael
16:28:30 <Kim> Chris: this may someday apply to native even if any native specific things getting pulled out at least we don't have to go back and rework on those things
16:28:32 <agarrison> +1
16:28:33 <Kathy> ack chriscm
16:29:40 <chriscm> Henny: All good points.  Hybrid apps should not be forgotten.  Tech agnostic.  In regarding to final wording change "can also apply to mobile applications" to "...may apply..."
16:30:08 <Kathy> ack Henny
16:30:17 <chriscm> Henny: Even if it doesn't strictly apply, native developers come to wcag, and specifically the mobile extension for guidance.
16:30:26 <Kim> +1 Henny
16:31:28 <Kathy> ack David
16:32:05 <jeanne> q+ to say \that the definition of WCAG was written before smartphones and mobile apps existed.
16:32:17 <David> +1
16:32:19 <Kathy> +1
16:32:19 <marcjohlic> +1
16:32:20 <agarrison> q+
16:32:26 <jeanne> +1
16:32:27 <chriscm> Kim: What do people think about Henny's suggestion to sub in "may apply..."
16:32:30 <chriscm> +1
16:33:05 <chriscm> Jeanne: Don't get to hung up on definition of web from wcag, because it was written before smartphones and mobile apps existed.
16:33:31 <chriscm> David: We are constrained by definition within the realm of 2.1.
16:34:27 <chriscm> Jeanne: We don't want to constrain our thoughts. We should allow the working group to make that decison.
16:34:46 <chriscm> Kathy: Don't censor ourselves, let the working group make the call.
16:34:51 <agarrison> may apply to apsects of mobile device interfaces made with web technologies
16:36:26 <chriscm> Kathy: Hybrid apps add further complications.  A webview within an app is still web content, even though it's not within a browser.
16:36:46 <jeanne> ack jean
16:36:46 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to say \that the definition of WCAG was written before smartphones and mobile apps existed.
16:38:33 <MichaelC> q+
16:38:42 <jeanne> ack ag
16:39:01 <MichaelC> ack me
16:39:14 <chriscm> chriscm: Web content hardcoded does not apply to all content rendered by a browser.
16:40:06 <chriscm> Michael: This is an issue that needs to be addressed going forward, even if it can't be addressed in WCAG 2.1
16:40:22 <jeanne> This needs to go into the Coordination section
16:40:36 <chriscm> Kim: Do we need to add a proposal as an action.
16:40:38 <David> q+
16:41:39 <jeanne> action: jeanne to document discussion on applicability of the definition of web content to mobile
16:41:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-43 - Document discussion on applicability of the definition of web content to mobile [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2016-03-17].
16:42:08 <chriscm> David: Henny adding the word "may" to the introduction addresses my concerns.
16:42:54 <chriscm> David: Focus on hybrid and responsive applications before any native specific.
16:42:58 <chriscm> q+
16:43:09 <David> ack david
16:43:13 <Kathy> ack David
16:43:16 <jeanne> ack chr
16:44:14 <Kim> Chris: just because it's not a capability now it might be later – look at with the capabilities of native are and assume they'll eventually be capabilities of mobile web as well and assume that any criteria have respect to the capabilities of native even if we don't say native apps can do this we can say mobile web may be able to do this because it's a capability the platform
16:44:17 <MichaelC> +1, there are a lot of APIs being developed for Web that match mobile device features
16:44:27 <agarrison> q+
16:44:31 <jeanne> +1 Chris
16:44:47 <Kim> +1 Chris
16:45:20 <chriscm> Agarrison: It's true that you can do that.  Many features are already available through things like cordova.
16:45:52 <Henny> +1 Alistair -  clearly defining what a mobile application is.
16:45:54 <chriscm> zakim, take up next
16:45:54 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, chriscm
16:46:01 <jeanne> ack ag
16:46:04 <chriscm> zakim, take up next
16:46:04 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Revisions to  2.5.3, M029 -  https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_revision_of_2.5.3   https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/M029" taken up
16:46:07 <Zakim> ... [from Kim]
16:46:28 <Kim> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/2016-03-07/
16:46:37 <Kathy> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/M029
16:46:55 <Kathy> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/2016-03-07/results
16:49:32 <David> q+
16:50:13 <Kathy> Chris: M029 is applicable to touch when assistive technology is turned on
16:50:17 <Kim> Chris: either sequential navigation or iinstead of waiting for sequential  navigation, on release
16:50:29 <Kathy> Chris: Actions should not be taken on focus
16:51:05 <Kim> Kathy: any known issues, specifics that we can reference?
16:51:14 <Kim> Kathy: like this user agent does not support blah blah blah
16:51:46 <Kim> Chris: too obvious ones voice over and talk back both support same navigation mechanisms
16:53:00 <Kim> Chris: trying to ensure that people understand when you're swiping on the screen nothing should be activated until you do double tap or confirmation action
16:54:14 <Kim> David: I think of this as a failure technique – somebody fails WCAG if they do this. This isn't really native behavior they have to be creatively stupid to make this happen. By nature they are going to override. I don't think this should be positive technique I think this should be a failure technique – you fail if you do this dumb thing, and here's an example of how you can do it dumb and...
16:54:16 <Kim> ...need code example. Has anybody run across applications that actually do this
16:54:21 <Kim> Chris: on android the stop dialer does this
16:54:51 <Kim> David: failure technique and make it really clear that this is not going to happen if you doing the normal stuff you have to be really creative to do this
16:55:07 <Kim> Chris: I agree
16:56:24 <Kim> Chris: going to convert to FM, give it the next FM number
16:59:53 <David> FMXX: Failure of Success Creteria xxx as a result of overriding assistive technology in such as way as to activate a control when the touch is removed
17:00:17 <David> froma  control
17:02:08 <Kim>  rrsagent, make minutes
17:02:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/10-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim
17:03:07 <Kim> Present +Kim
17:04:38 <Kim> Present + David
17:04:47 <David> thx
17:04:51 <Kim>  rrsagent, make minutes
17:04:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/10-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim
17:09:06 <marcjohlic_> marcjohlic_ has joined #mobile-a11y
18:39:48 <Kim>  rrsagent, bye
18:39:48 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2016/03/10-mobile-a11y-actions.rdf :
18:39:48 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jeanne to document discussion on applicability of the definition of web content to mobile [1]
18:39:48 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/03/10-mobile-a11y-irc#T16-41-39