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17:29:13 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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17:29:15 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
17:29:16 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
17:29:16 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
17:29:17 <trackbot> Date: 10 March 2016
17:30:07 <Rich> RRSAgent, make log public
17:30:11 <Rich> chair: Rich
17:30:19 <jemma> jemma has joined #aria
17:30:42 <Rich> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Mar/0086.html
17:31:43 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
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17:32:47 <jemma> present+ JaeunJemmaku
17:33:06 <Rich> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:33:11 <fesch> present+ fesch
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17:36:56 <Stefan> Scribe; Stefan
17:37:03 <Stefan> Scribe:Stefan
17:37:20 <Stefan> Scribe: Stefan
17:37:36 <Stefan> Topic: Heartbeat Drafts
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17:38:11 <jemma> rrsagent, make log world
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17:38:16 <Stefan> Rich: docunments not ready yet
17:38:22 <joanie> q+ To say you're not really waiting on Apple
17:38:38 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:38:43 <Stefan> Rich. we can leave this after CSUN
17:38:53 <Stefan> MC: Just joined
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17:39:25 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
17:39:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/10-aria-minutes.html jamesn
17:39:26 <Stefan> Rich: list for heartbeats
17:39:27 <joanie> q-
17:39:44 <Stefan> Rich: DPUB lotta changes
17:40:03 <Stefan> Rich: once done tomorrow you can take this with you
17:40:34 <Stefan> Rich: noticed about spinbutton?
17:40:43 <Stefan> MC: not noticed yet
17:41:23 <Stefan> Rich: there were actions(deprecated)
17:41:37 <Stefan> 2021 action
17:41:43 <Stefan> Rich: can be closed
17:42:34 <jemma> +q
17:43:08 <Stefan> resolution: Core AAM Core Name + Description DPUB-ARIA DPUB-AAM they will be published as heartbeat drafts
17:43:42 <Stefan> Topic: COMBOBOX
17:43:56 <Stefan> Matt: new branch created
17:44:07 <Rich> Action-1490?
17:44:07 <trackbot> Action-1490 -- Matthew King to Propose spec text edit for issue-610: comboboxes should allow complex children elements -- due 2016-02-03 -- OPEN
17:44:07 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1490
17:44:10 <mck> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action1490-combobox/aria/aria.html#combobox
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17:45:22 <Stefan> Matt: to summarize changes .. lets go pyragraph by paragraph
17:45:39 <Stefan> Matt: made clear that it is a composite widget
17:45:55 <Stefan> Matt: popup helps to set value of combobox
17:46:00 <jemma> A composite widget containing a single-line textbox that can trigger an associated pop-up, such as a listbox or grid, for helping the user set the value of the textbox.
17:46:12 <jemma> I copied definition
17:46:35 <Stefan> Rich: should be "contains" popup
17:47:04 <jemma> Authors must ensure an element with role combobox contains or owns an element with role textbox and that the textbox has aria-multiline set to false. If the combobox provides autocompletion behavior for the text input as described in aria-autocomplete, authors should set aria-autocomplete on the textbox element to the value that corresponds to the provided behavior.
17:47:23 <Stefan> Matt: contains is not correct
17:47:50 <jongund> present+ jongund
17:47:55 <Stefan> Matt: distinguishing behaviour is that its textbox can trigger popup element
17:48:23 <Stefan> Rich: do you want to say that it causes annother widget to popup
17:48:46 <Stefan> Matt: ok I will read ovwer the wording
17:49:21 <Stefan> Matt: (goes ober wording)
17:49:47 <Stefan> Matt: how do you want me to call the thing that pops up?
17:50:03 <Stefan> Rich: Listbox ....
17:50:27 <Stefan> Matt: Biran provided useful feedback on the list
17:50:35 <clown> s/Biran/Bryan/
17:50:49 <Rich> q?
17:50:50 <Stefan> Matt: we should nt be overly prescriptive in the combination of elements
17:51:26 <Stefan> Rich: we get the testing afterwards
17:52:47 <Rich> q+
17:52:53 <Rich> ack jemma
17:53:20 <Stefan> Cynthia: custom autocomplete of combobox ?
17:53:42 <Stefan> Matt: no changes for this in the branch
17:54:00 <Stefan> Matt: autocomplete is aan author must
17:54:47 <clown> q+ to ask whether the "authors SHOULD set autocomplete" is different from the previous version.
17:54:49 <Stefan> Matt: wording s okay i think
17:55:19 <Stefan> Matt: what appropriate value for autocomplete
17:55:44 <Stefan> Rich: it's ok
17:56:31 <Stefan> Brian: combobox on textbox is also valid?
17:56:49 <Stefan> Matt: coding pattern described here is different from aria 1.0
17:57:23 <Stefan> Matt: but this desn't mean that both patterns should not supported by AT
17:57:54 <Stefan> Brian: its not in 1.1. spec
17:58:06 <Stefan> Matt: they are complmentory
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17:58:36 <Stefan> Matt: 1.0 pattern will fade away
17:59:07 <Stefan> Brian: "should" is the problem in the wording
17:59:54 <tzviya> present+ Tzviya
18:00:15 <Stefan> Matt: I disagree with the fact that 1.0 implementations are full accessible
18:00:43 <Stefan> Matt: there is need for improvement, but we don't want to break compatibility
18:00:56 <Stefan> Matt: we encourage to use the new pattern
18:01:40 <Rich> q?
18:02:04 <Stefan> Joseph: was an authors must autocomplete? no it was a should
18:02:10 <clown> zakim, ack me
18:02:10 <Zakim> clown, you wanted to ask whether the "authors SHOULD set autocomplete" is different from the previous version.
18:02:12 <Zakim> I see Rich on the speaker queue
18:02:42 <Stefan> Joseph: what#s a good reason for MUST
18:03:02 <Stefan> Joseph: if group decides to elevate, fine with me
18:03:08 <Stefan> Rich: we should do it
18:03:34 <clown> s/Joseph: what#s a good reason for MUST/Joseph: a SHOULD means MUST unless there is a good reason not to.  What is that reason?/
18:03:48 <Stefan> Rich: any objections?
18:03:55 <Stefan> Matt: will change testcase
18:04:10 <Stefan> Rich: test tools will have to change for that
18:04:47 <ShaneM> present+ ShaneM
18:04:47 <Stefan> Jon: when autocomplete=false a must?
18:05:13 <Stefan> Jon: autocomplete=none what will screen rereader do?
18:05:54 <Stefan> Cynthia: we can discuss autocomplete offline
18:06:48 <Stefan> still action Action 1490: Combobox
18:07:01 <Rich> action: matt update definition of aria-autocomplete
18:07:01 <trackbot> 'matt' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., mgarrish, mking3).
18:07:22 <Rich> action: mking3 update definition of aria-autocomplete
18:07:23 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2039 - Update definition of aria-autocomplete [on Matthew King - due 2016-03-17].
18:07:44 <Stefan> Matt: expanded/collapsed in 3rd paragraph
18:08:11 <Stefan> Matt: again MUST is used
18:08:34 <Stefan> Matt: implicit value of expanded=false on combobox
18:09:11 <Stefan> +q
18:09:41 <Stefan> Matt: is part of the characteristics table
18:10:23 <Stefan> Rich: why implicit? you are requiring it anyways
18:10:43 <Stefan> rrrsagent, make minutes
18:11:11 <Stefan> rrsagent, make minutes
18:11:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/10-aria-minutes.html Stefan
18:12:18 <Stefan> Rich: if MUST we have to set implicit states, too
18:13:14 <Stefan> Matt: you want to leave it in the table? its covered by AAM
18:13:35 <Stefan> Joseph: if you leave it off it is still there implicitely
18:13:55 <Stefan> Rich: a warning for a required state in test tools will be raised
18:14:07 <Stefan> Matt: I thinkthis is editorial
18:14:23 <Stefan> Matt: the last sentence
18:15:06 <Stefan> Joseph: for aria-expandable this WOULD be required
18:15:43 <Rich> q?
18:15:47 <Rich> ack Rich
18:15:51 <fesch> q+
18:16:52 <Stefan> q-
18:17:52 <Stefan> Bryan: I'm fine when I'm following the spec
18:18:38 <Stefan> Matt: frm a checking standpoint you MUST do it in both cases
18:18:48 <Stefan> Joseph: user agents do it anyway
18:19:43 <Stefan> Rich: we had a round with test tools... compliance?
18:20:00 <Stefan> Matt: all tools are based on author's must ..
18:20:40 <Stefan> Matt: Fred this is an author's must staement
18:21:06 <Stefan> Fred: why do you need it telling an eveloper when they are doing wrong?
18:21:33 <Stefan> Shane: basic spec philosophy question ..
18:21:56 <Stefan> Matt: running out of time
18:22:04 <Stefan> Rich: go ahead
18:22:43 <Stefan> Matt: two paragraphs remain
18:23:08 <Stefan> Matt: cntains or owns annother element that is a popup ..
18:23:33 <Stefan> Rich: it could be landmark .. narrow down scope please
18:24:07 <Stefan> Matt: let's think about purpose of role attribute
18:24:28 <Stefan> Matt: describe behaviours in a way to comprehend the inner interaction pattern
18:24:57 <Stefan> Matt: in this case quite simple .. textbox, popup and value
18:25:06 <Stefan> q+
18:25:23 <Stefan> Matt: interaction pattern matters
18:25:56 <Stefan> Matt: we should not limit things in popups
18:26:16 <Stefan> Cynthia: in popup is list of things
18:26:24 <Stefan> Matt: no this is too limiting
18:27:14 <Stefan> Matt: no reason to have complicated conventions to limit that
18:27:47 <Stefan> Matt: purpose of aria is to help user understand interaction model we dont need to be super prespictive
18:28:00 <Stefan> (Matt + Cynthia discussion)
18:28:19 <Rich> q?
18:28:21 <Rich> q+
18:28:30 <Stefan> q-
18:28:36 <fesch> ack me
18:29:00 <ShaneM> q+ Cyns
18:29:27 <Stefan> Rich: you are taking input to fill textbox?
18:29:31 <Stefan> Matt: right
18:30:09 <Stefan> Matt: really valid reason to do this this way
18:30:30 <Stefan> Matt: people should think about essential elements in the pattern
18:31:10 <ShaneM> q+ to point out that menus in input fields are common in ideographic languages
18:31:29 <Stefan> Rich: i would like to see a restricted set of widget types
18:31:57 <Stefan> Matt: I will change that in iteration next to limit list
18:32:20 <Stefan> Rich: let's see that list
18:32:26 <ShaneM> q?
18:32:31 <Stefan> Topic: PASSWORD ROLE
18:32:40 <Rich> ack Rich
18:32:44 <Rich>  ack Cyns
18:33:25 <ShaneM> ack ShaneM
18:33:25 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to point out that menus in input fields are common in ideographic languages
18:33:43 <Stefan>  https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2004
18:34:21 <clown> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/166
18:34:22 <Stefan> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/password-role/aria/aria.html#password
18:34:26 <ShaneM> ShaneM: Note that ideographic input methods often show menus to complete text input , even as part of a combo box.  Not sure if this is a list of a menu
18:34:38 <Rich> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2020
18:34:41 <Stefan> Cynthia: had long discussion with dev team
18:35:14 <Stefan> Cynthia: from edge
18:35:25 <Rich> Cynthia: I reviewed this idea with one of our security experts. His opinion was that adding role=password doesn't add any additional threat. He did think that using divs and images to simulate a password was less secure than using an html password input, but that adding the accessibility piece to it didn't have any impact on the security risk.
18:36:00 <Stefan> Rich: coming back to Joanis proposal for password
18:36:31 <Rich> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/password-role/aria/aria.html#password
18:39:39 <Stefan> SIs list of properties identical to textbox?
18:40:01 <Stefan> Joanmarie: describedat is added
18:40:19 <Stefan> Joanmarie: will do new version of branch
18:40:24 <ShaneM> describedat is NOT added.
18:41:04 <Stefan> Rich: must get to right branch
18:41:39 <Stefan> Rich: we will have to get the merge branch
18:41:39 <ShaneM> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#textbox
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18:42:59 <Stefan> (discussion about branch refrehes)
18:43:19 <Stefan> Rich: forge about superclass
18:43:35 <Stefan> Rich: (checking properties)
18:43:52 <Stefan> Shane: autocomplete isn't ..
18:44:17 <Stefan> Joseph: taxonomy doesn't allow you to kick out props
18:44:54 <Stefan> Rich: you have to subclass input but no multiline and autocomplete
18:46:03 <Stefan> Joanmarie: you have to start out .. role changes .. is jacky for AT .. I will do a brand new branch
18:46:38 <Stefan> Shane: multiline is possible but not with textarea
18:46:42 <Stefan> Shane: in HTML
18:47:13 <Stefan> Shane: the property for a pssword element
18:47:27 <Stefan> Shane: password in HTML is no multiline
18:48:18 <Stefan> Rich;
18:48:55 <ShaneM> sorry joanie :(
18:49:06 <Stefan> (discussion about what IS a use case for password fields)
18:50:07 <Stefan> topic: Name from author and content
18:50:25 <Stefan> Joanie: will e faster for shane -> assigned to shane
18:50:54 <Stefan> Rich: next week ? after CSUN
18:51:36 <Rich> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/products/17
18:51:55 <Stefan> TOPIC: OPEN ACTIONS AND ISSUES
18:52:17 <Rich> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1756
18:52:28 <Stefan> Rich: what is this about shane?
18:52:57 <Stefan> Shane: build markup associations in spec .. json file creation that helps us
18:53:13 <Stefan> Joseph: associations are MUST statements?#Shane: or shoulds
18:53:29 <Stefan> Shane: conditional associations based on if
18:54:06 <Rich> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/641
18:54:15 <Rich> action-1744?
18:54:15 <trackbot> action-1744 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Implement edits proposed in issue-641, raise to group if any subsantive changes come out -- due 2015-11-26 -- OPEN
18:54:15 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1744
18:54:51 <Stefan> Rich: this is for James craig.. do you remember joane? Joanie: no
18:55:12 <Stefan> Joanie: next week
18:55:23 <Stefan> Rich: ok
18:57:08 <Rich> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/648
18:57:34 <Stefan> Rich: we did this
18:57:48 <Stefan> rrsagent, make minutes
18:57:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/10-aria-minutes.html Stefan
18:58:59 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#implicit_semantics
18:59:24 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#host_general_conflict
19:02:11 <Rich> Action: Michael modify section 7.4 to include role values as native host language semantics in paragraph 2
19:02:12 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2040 - Modify section 7.4 to include role values as native host language semantics in paragraph 2 [on Michael Cooper - due 2016-03-17].
19:02:30 <Stefan> rrsagent, make minutes
19:02:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/10-aria-minutes.html Stefan
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