14:45:14 RRSAgent has joined #lvtf 14:45:14 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/03/09-lvtf-irc 14:45:16 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:45:18 Zakim, this will be 14:45:18 I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot 14:45:19 Meeting: Low Vision Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 14:45:19 Date: 09 March 2016 14:49:44 agenda+ Daylight savings time (US) 14:51:16 zakim, clear agenda 14:51:16 agenda cleared 14:51:26 agenda+ Daylight savings time (US) 14:51:58 Agenda+ FPWD approved 14:52:08 rrsagent, make minutes 14:52:08 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/09-lvtf-minutes.html allanj 14:52:29 rrsagent, set logs public 14:52:56 chair: Jim & Andrew 14:54:13 Agenda+ CSUN Plan - who, what sessions, gathering? 14:54:28 ​Agenda+ Legibility and Readability and ??? 14:54:30 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/LVTF_Open_Issues#Legibility_and_Readability_and_.3F.3F.3F 14:55:08 Agenda+ lvtf-ACTION-37: Avila to create user need for contrast differences 14:55:09 Agenda+ lvtf-ACTION-38: Review 3.1 contrast/color user needs 14:55:11 Agenda+ lvtf-ACTION-39: Craft user need on obscured perception and operability 15:00:15 regrets+ JohnR 15:08:31 regrets+ Erich 15:08:45 JimAllan+ 15:22:12 laura has joined #lvtf 15:23:34 jeanne has joined #lvtf 15:32:15 I’m getting “Host has not yet Joined the meeting” when I try to connect to WebEx. 15:33:09 Wayne has joined #lvtf 15:33:18 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:33:18 Present: shawn, jeanne, Jim, Erich, JohnR, jon_avila, AWK, Laura 15:33:34 present- JohnR 15:33:57 present- Erich 15:34:05 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:34:05 Present: shawn, jeanne, Jim, jon_avila, AWK, Laura 15:34:15 AWK has joined #lvtf 15:34:28 present+ wayne 15:34:38 +AWK 15:35:14 present+ jeanne 15:35:32 present- jon_avila 15:35:35 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:35:35 Present: shawn, jeanne, Jim, AWK, Laura, wayne 15:36:23 scribe: jeanne 15:36:31 agenda? 15:36:42 zakim, take up item 1 15:36:42 agendum 1. "Daylight savings time (US)" taken up [from allanj] 15:37:19 JA: Reminder to non-US participants that the US time will be different from world time. The meeting time will be the same in the US. It shouldn't be an issue. 15:37:38 zakim, take up next 15:37:38 agendum 1 was just opened, jeanne 15:37:44 zakim, close item 1 15:37:44 agendum 1, Daylight savings time (US), closed 15:37:45 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:37:45 2. FPWD approved [from allanj] 15:37:49 zakim, take up item 1 15:37:49 agendum 1. "Daylight savings time (US)" taken up [from allanj] 15:37:57 zakim, take up item 2 15:37:57 agendum 2. "FPWD approved" taken up [from allanj] 15:38:25 JA: The publication has been approved, and expect to be published around the 17th, before CSUN. 15:39:19 JA: OT announcement: Jim Thatcher turns 80 this month. on the 25th. There will be at to-do in Austin on the 26th. Ask Jim if you want more info. 15:39:35 JA: Thank you to Shawn for getting the publication ready to publish! 15:39:40 zakim, take up next 15:39:40 agendum 3. "CSUN Plan - who, what sessions, gathering?" taken up [from allanj] 15:39:55 JA: We can also take it to the list. 15:39:56 Shawn is going to CSUN 15:39:58 AWK is going to CSUN] 15:40:00 Jeanne at CSUN 15:40:10 s/CSUN]/CSUN 15:40:11 EOWG is meeting Monday & Tuesday and welcomes visitors! 15:40:39 s/EOWG is meeting Monday & Tuesday and welcomes visitors!/EOWG is meeting Monday & Tuesday and welcomes visitors! (with Chairs permission) 15:40:49 +1 for doing that on the list 15:41:20 JA: Wayne suggested that we look at sessions and see if there are low-vision sessions that we want to attend and bring info back to the group. 15:41:28 ... also perhaps get together. 15:42:07 SLH: Invited to EOWG meeting. Get chairs permission - Sharron Rush and Brent @@ 15:42:28 ... we will be at the Solamar Hotel. Great location, great food. 15:42:34 zakim, take up next 15:42:34 agendum 4. "lvtf-ACTION-37: Avila to create user need for contrast differences" taken up [from allanj] 15:42:36 https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/EOWG_F2F_March_2016 15:42:44 agenda+ WCAG at TPAC 15:42:52 present+ Laura 15:43:04 s/ Brent @@/ Brent Bakken 15:43:51 JA: Jon is not here, but there was interesting discussion of contrast of transition state on Github. Whether a hover should be under WCAG. 15:44:17 https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/157 15:45:30 JS: what is the argument that WCAG doesn't apply? 15:45:44 JA: It seems to swing on the definition of transitional states. 15:46:09 ... there was an example of links seeming to disappear. 15:46:29 ... that was an example of active state, not hover 15:46:37 zakim, take up next 15:46:37 agendum 5. "lvtf-ACTION-38: Review 3.1 contrast/color user needs" taken up [from allanj] 15:48:18 https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf/blob/gh-pages/WC-UA-alignment 15:50:51 agenda? 15:51:06 http://w3c.github.io/low-vision-a11y-tf/WC-UA-alignment.html 15:51:12 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/LVTF_Open_Issues#Possible_User_Need_Modification 15:51:13 JA: I'm setting up a chart that lists the requirements and where they are addressed in WCAG and UAAG 15:51:15 Needed to rename the file to include .html 15:51:41 zakim, take up next 15:51:41 agendum 6. "lvtf-ACTION-39: Craft user need on obscured perception and operability" taken up [from allanj] 15:52:26 JA: Action-39 looking at threads on the mailing list. 15:52:28 thread view https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-low-vision-a11y-tf/2016Mar/thread.html 15:53:39 WD: I think it was Jon who came up with the final user need 15:53:42 proposal: User Need: Users can see and operate all interface elements that are intended for users to see and operate. This includes when users have changed display settings such as text size, magnification level, and cursor size. 15:53:53 s/final user need/final user need from that discussion 15:54:07 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-low-vision-a11y-tf/2016Mar/0037.html 15:54:08 Laura: Jon added something after that. 15:54:25 User Need: Users can see and operate all interface elements that are intended for users to see and operate. This includes when users have changed display settings such as text size, magnification level, and cursor size. 15:54:46 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-low-vision-a11y-tf/2016Mar/0038.html 15:55:01 JA: We want to add "pointers, cursors, and carats" 15:55:11 User Need: Users can see and operate all interface elements that are intended for users to see and operate. This includes when users have changed display settings such as text size, magnification, and cursor. 15:55:21 SLH: We need to be more general. Maybe magnification level and cursor shape. 15:55:55 WD: It isn't the cursor as much as the tooltip that obscures the active elments so you can't click the element. 15:56:26 LC: There are 3 examples in the wiki of screenshots of tooltips obscuring the active element. 15:58:05 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/LVTF_Open_Issues#Work_with_User_Settings 15:58:12 s/Maybe magnification level and cursor shape./Maybe note need magnification "level" and also want to cover things like cursor shape. 15:58:51 User Need: Users can see and operate all interface elements that are intended for users to see and operate. This includes when users have changed display settings such as text size, magnification, and cursor. 15:59:18 JA: We can flesh it out with specific examples. 15:59:30 +1 15:59:33 +1 15:59:33 +1 15:59:36 +1 16:00:02 RESOLUTION: add User Need: Users can see and operate all interface elements that are intended for users to see and operate. This includes when users have changed display settings such as text size, magnification, and cursor. 16:01:59 AWK: suggestions Users can see and operate all interactive interface elements. This includes when users have changed display settings such as text size, magnification, and cursor. 16:02:22 SLH: It goes beyond interactive. It can't obscure text. 16:02:37 WD: There are user interface elements that we don't get to see and operate. 16:02:54 AWK: I agree with what we want, I am just trying to clarify wording. 16:03:12 ... I thought the original wording excluded text. 16:03:56 SLH: I wouldn't think that text is an interface element. 16:04:25 AWK: It is a gray area in WCAG. 16:05:03 ... I think plain text is a non-interactive interface element. 16:06:00 ... anything that is available visually for the purpose of reading or interaction, then users with low vision should be able to read and interact without ... 16:06:25 WD: Users are able to see and interact with all user interface elements 16:07:16 s/read and interact without .../read and interact without regard to the adaptations such as text size, magnification, and cursor. 16:07:31 see http://w3c.github.io/low-vision-a11y-tf/requirements.html#seeing-all-interface-elements 16:07:56 Users can view and, where applicable, interact with all content presented visually, including when users have changed display settings such as text size, magnification, and cursor appearance. 16:07:59 Anything that is available visually for the purpose of reading or interaction, then users with low vision should be able to read and interact without regard to the adaptations such as text size, magnification, and cursor. 16:08:10 Shawn is OK with "interface elements" including static text and interactive elements 16:09:03 AWK: Do we want to also include browser scroll bars. There are people who take them away. 16:09:22 ... if you take them away, how do you interact and view all the content. 16:10:24 JA: People create a box where the font fits in a specific size, so they remove the scroll bars. Then a user increases the font size, and then can't get to all the text. 16:10:51 LC: How about "control" instead of "operate". That would then include the scrollbar. 16:11:04 andrew - Users can view and, where applicable, interact with all content presented visually, including when users have changed display settings such as text size, magnification, and cursor appearance. 16:11:18 WD: I like to stick with operate since it is closer to WCAG. I think the scrollbar is a different issue. 16:11:18 previous: Users can see and operate all interface elements that are intended for users to see and operate. 16:12:22 agenda? 16:13:47 SLH: It needs to be broader than content -- it includes the user interface for the browser. 16:13:55 Users can view and, where applicable, interact with all content and user interface controls presented visually, including when users have changed display settings such as text size, magnification, and cursor appearance. 16:14:12 JA: Content is in the window, the browser interface elements are all around it. 16:14:44 +1 16:14:53 +1 16:14:59 -1 too complex 16:16:08 WD: I would like to add the caret 16:16:46 ... when you make the caret larger, it only is made thicker, which then obscures the text that it is supposed to be indicating position. See Jon's email 16:17:01 the list is of examples, not intended to be comprehensive 16:17:24 AWK: it is the same problem with the mouse cursor 16:18:35 ... there is one point on the cursor that is really the focus point, despite the size of the cursor. It's the same issue with a thick caret indicator, the focus point is the left edge, the center or the right edge. The user has to know. 16:20:36 Users can view and interact with all interface elements presented visually 16:21:49 AWK: it includes "and user interface controls" because it would then cover the UAAG items like the scrollbars and browser controls. 16:22:14 Users can view and interact with all content and interface elements presented visually 16:22:15 ... then we avoid the problem where people don't think of text as a user interface controls. 16:22:36 16:23:46 JA: Element implies content. Controls imply both user interface and content. 16:25:43 Users can see and interact with all content and user interface controls presented visually 16:28:14 Users can see and interact with all content and user interface controls presented visually, including when users have changed display settings such as text size, magnification, and cursor appearance. 16:28:37 +1 16:28:56 =1 16:28:57 +1 16:29:07 +1 16:29:08 =1 16:29:27 +1 16:29:29 +3/4 16:29:32 RESOLUTION: update previous resolution to: Users can see and interact with all content and user interface controls presented visually, including when users have changed display settings such as text size, magnification, and cursor appearance. 16:30:01 zakim, take up next 16:30:01 agendum 7. "WCAG at TPAC" taken up [from AWK] 16:30:39 https://www.w3.org/blog/2015/09/tpac-2016-dates-and-location-announced/ 16:30:48 AWK: WCAG will be meeting at TPAC in September. We will be talking about Extensions and would like people to attend 16:31:02 AWK: 19-23 September 16:34:10 rrsagent, make minutes 16:34:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/09-lvtf-minutes.html jeanne 16:34:36 bye.