IRC log of social on 2016-03-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:57:17 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #social
17:57:17 [RRSAgent]
logging to
17:57:19 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:57:19 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #social
17:57:21 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be SOCL
17:57:21 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
17:57:22 [trackbot]
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
17:57:23 [trackbot]
Date: 08 March 2016
17:57:33 [wilkie]
I'll scribe
17:57:58 [tantek]
17:58:00 [Loqi]
wilkie has 28 karma
17:58:01 [wilkie]
17:58:21 [azaroth]
azaroth has joined #social
17:59:03 [bengo]
17:59:53 [Arnaud]
18:00:02 [Loqi]
Tantekelik made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]]
18:00:03 [azaroth]
present+ Rob_Sanderson
18:00:53 [tantek]
18:00:54 [wilkie]
scribe: wilkie
18:01:03 [tantek]
chair: Arnaud
18:01:17 [Arnaud]
18:01:31 [dmitriz]
18:01:44 [AnnB]
18:01:46 [wilkie]
Arnaud: hello everyone
18:02:20 [wilkie]
Arnaud: we will wait a few minutes to see who else will join. sandro and eprodrom for instance should be on their way
18:02:42 [wilkie]
Arnaud: we don't have a loaded agenda so we aren't pressed for time
18:02:44 [aaronpk]
18:02:52 [wilkie]
Arnaud: I'm torn about waiting
18:03:03 [wilkie]
tantek: I think it's up to you if you think we have enough
18:03:07 [azaroth]
+1 :)
18:03:43 [shevski]
present+ Ira
18:04:00 [wilkie]
Arnaud: first the approval of the minutes from last meeting
18:04:02 [wilkie]
18:04:10 [wilkie]
Arnaud: any concerns? objections?
18:04:16 [AnnB]
18:04:22 [eprodrom]
just rejoining, sry
18:04:27 [tantek]
18:04:31 [wilkie]
18:04:52 [wilkie]
Arnaud: seeing no objections I declare them approved
18:05:25 [wilkie]
Arnaud: next week's meeting for tuesday will be skilled for travel for the F2F
18:05:38 [wilkie]
Arnaud: the following week there will be conflicts and that will be skipped as well
18:05:38 [sandro]
18:05:44 [rhiaro]
18:05:47 [wilkie]
Arnaud: the next meeting with be 03/29
18:06:10 [wilkie]
Arnaud: people are asked to go to the F2F wiki and note any dietary restrictions or concerns
18:06:14 [wilkie]
Arnaud: is rhiaro on the call?
18:06:15 [eprodrom]
present+ eprodrom
18:06:36 [wilkie]
rhiaro: yes. also favorite foods and preferences should be noted. it's a small group.
18:06:52 [wilkie]
Arnaud: before we get into the agenda, one piece of info
18:07:18 [wilkie]
Arnaud: some people requested instead of webex we use uberconference, which is a free alternative
18:07:30 [wilkie]
Arnaud: some tried it and we were able to use it for about an hour with 4 people on the call
18:07:48 [wilkie]
Arnaud: it was ok and there were some echos and such but overall it worked
18:08:31 [wilkie]
Arnaud: though we don't know how it would scale. we think as a next step we can experiment at the F2F since there will be more than 4 on the call but less than normal
18:09:02 [wilkie]
Arnaud: you may want to experiment and make sure you can connect to uberconference before the meeting
18:09:08 [KevinMarks]
18:09:27 [wilkie]
TOPIC: Status on AS 2.0 Draft
18:09:36 [wilkie]
Arnaud: there are a few things about the AS2 spec to get it to CR
18:09:44 [wilkie]
Arnaud: eprodrom, conformance section?
18:10:02 [Loqi]
Tantekelik made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]]
18:10:03 [wilkie]
eprodrom: there are some things on that section I need to run by jasnell and will hopefully get that done before the F2F
18:10:03 [Loqi]
Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-08]]
18:10:08 [wilkie]
eprodrom: the other thing is the validator
18:10:33 [wilkie]
eprodrom: one critiques about the validator is that AS2 is very permissive and an empty JSON document is a valid AS2 document
18:11:00 [wilkie]
eprodrom: the work with the validator is to have a spectrum of recommendations
18:11:19 [wilkie]
eprodrom: and to advise good style and what is likely to interop well
18:11:26 [wilkie]
Arnaud: thank you. any comments / questions?
18:11:31 [wilkie]
bengo: this is bengo!
18:11:43 [bengo]
18:11:44 [wilkie]
bengo: I have two PRs on the test documents repo. is there anything wrong with those?
18:12:05 [wilkie]
eprodrom: I have not seen them but I will check them out and get them pulled before next week. I'll look after the meeting
18:12:08 [wilkie]
bengo: cool
18:12:09 [wilkie]
Arnaud: thank you. anything else?
18:12:22 [wilkie]
TOPIC: Document Status
18:12:40 [wilkie]
Arnaud: sandro put together a page to capture the list of documents we have in the works
18:12:43 [wilkie]
18:13:04 [wilkie]
Arnaud: and the status on each document. I've looked at this page and it hasn't gotten much love. no edits since sandro put it together
18:13:34 [wilkie]
Arnaud: I wanted to raise this issue. not sure if people forgot about it, but we should update this page maybe each editor takes responsibility for the section they are editing
18:14:07 [wilkie]
Arnaud: are there any issues with this page to be raised? I see amy didn't see that it was there so hopefully it was that people didn't get a chance to see it or review it.
18:14:17 [wilkie]
Arnaud: questions or comments?
18:14:36 [wilkie]
TOPIC: Face to Face Goals and Agenda
18:14:37 [cwebber]
cwebber has joined #social
18:14:39 [cwebber]
18:14:41 [cwebber]
sorry I'm late
18:14:50 [cwebber]
present+ cwebber2
18:14:53 [wilkie]
Arnaud: there was an agenda put together by the chairs and sandro
18:15:03 [wilkie]
Arnaud: trying to figure out how to make this meeting productive and efficient
18:15:17 [wilkie]
18:15:34 [rhiaro]
18:16:06 [wilkie]
Arnaud: is seems unreasonable to pick a winner among various specs. what seems reasonable is to note what the differences are and what strengths each have.
18:16:59 [wilkie]
Arnaud: something to guide a developer to choose one solution over another. this seems like something we can defend. something where people can work on specs in parallel and such that people can choose appropiately which to use.
18:17:02 [tsyesika_]
present+ tsyesika
18:17:19 [wilkie]
Arnaud: the working group charter will expire at the end of the year and it is unknown if there will be any extension
18:17:47 [wilkie]
Arnaud: the money is thin and it is unsure if there is any expectation of extension and we should assume we will end at the end of the year and how to best use the time we have left
18:18:02 [wilkie]
Arnaud: there are specs we can get to CR by june and publish at the end of year
18:18:23 [wilkie]
Arnaud: we should focus and not let differences of opinion to sidetrack us and we all agree not having anything to show is the worst case
18:18:48 [sandro]
(sounds right to me)
18:18:48 [wilkie]
Arnaud: so we should note and focus on what specs are good for and when they are appropriate
18:19:00 [shevski]
that sounds good, where would this guidance live? in the social web protocols doc?
18:19:07 [rhiaro]
18:19:13 [wilkie]
Arnaud: and defer to fellow chairs and open it to the rest of the group for suggestions
18:19:36 [wilkie]
Arnaud: as always the agenda is a wiki and one can feel free to add items to that agenda
18:19:58 [aaronpk]
+1 this sounds like a good path
18:20:02 [Loqi]
Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]]
18:20:03 [Loqi]
Abasset made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]]
18:20:04 [Loqi]
Cwebber2 made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]]
18:20:23 [Arnaud]
18:20:25 [wilkie]
Arnaud: I see rhiaro has +1 and she should be able to help us with this task with her work comparing and aggregating the specifications in her guiding document
18:20:36 [wilkie]
Arnaud: no one is on the queue so nobody is dying to speak
18:20:48 [bengo]
18:20:52 [wilkie]
Arnaud: so that's about it for the agenda. is there anything else anybody else wants to bring up today?
18:20:55 [wilkie]
Arnaud: bengo?
18:20:56 [Arnaud]
ack bengo
18:21:08 [wilkie]
bengo: couple of weeks ago I mentioned I might not be able to get to Boston
18:21:09 [bengo]
18:21:09 [tantek]
q+ to request demos, and spec progress at f2f
18:21:12 [bengo]
18:21:14 [Loqi]
@daviderwin :: @bengo @losowsky @gjbarb It is in development. I'll ping you soon. Thanks for the #w3 links. Will strongly consider adjusting to conform.
18:21:24 [wilkie]
bengo: I missed the call because I was meeting with the Coral project leads
18:21:29 [shevski]
+1 on demos
18:21:34 [wilkie]
bengo: Coral is a mozilla project about making open source tools for online media
18:21:46 [wilkie]
bengo: there are factors where social web specs would fit with them
18:22:04 [wilkie]
bengo: they were intrigued and we discovered mozilla is a w3c member
18:22:22 [wilkie]
bengo: and they said they would look at implementing some of the specs for their socialweb usecases
18:22:27 [wilkie]
bengo: look out for them
18:22:42 [wilkie]
AnnB: I was wondering if that guy is located in the east can he come to the f2f?
18:22:53 [wilkie]
bengo: I think in NYC and I will remind them about the F2F next week
18:23:14 [wilkie]
tantek: also the indiewebcamp. he is at mozilla so he can talk to the people in charge of standards
18:23:40 [wilkie]
tantek: I've emailed the coral folks in the past and got some positive noises but sometimes it takes somebody from the outside to get attention
18:24:08 [wilkie]
bengo: I talked to them a while ago and there were just getting things going
18:24:15 [wilkie]
tantek: did you send them the various specs
18:24:30 [wilkie]
bengo: I sent several specs and will send them the document status page
18:24:33 [wilkie]
tantek: thanks appreciate it
18:24:38 [Arnaud]
ack tantek
18:24:38 [Zakim]
tantek, you wanted to request demos, and spec progress at f2f
18:24:44 [wilkie]
Arnaud: alright thank you. tantek is on the queue?
18:24:56 [cwebber]
I just put our demo on the agenda
18:25:00 [tantek]
18:25:11 [wilkie]
tantek: yes. there is a demo section on the [f2f] agenda and want to see the activitypump federation. ah thank you chris.
18:25:19 [wilkie]
tantek: add demos of tech to the agenda
18:25:35 [wilkie]
tantek: if you can update it to use activitypub that would be more awesome hint hint
18:25:55 [tantek]
18:26:00 [wilkie]
tantek: we will also discuss drafts to publish so there is a required reading section which has only 3 things right now
18:26:07 [wilkie]
tantek: if you want to discuss more add things to that list
18:26:24 [wilkie]
tantek: we want very much to help editors to move forward with documents. any questions about that process, reach out to us
18:26:27 [cwebber]
tantek, sorry, that won't happen by then, but we'll instead be able to demonstrate what will change between that and AP
18:26:37 [wilkie]
tantek: we want to use the f2f to move this forward and empower editors to do so
18:26:45 [wilkie]
Arnaud: thank you tantek
18:26:56 [wilkie]
Arnaud: anything else?
18:27:10 [wilkie]
Arnaud: if not, I think we'll be able to close the call early
18:27:16 [eprodrom]
18:27:31 [wilkie]
Arnaud: I don't think we have anything in the tracker, do we?? we copy and paste this over but I'm not sure it is useful anymore.
18:27:58 [wilkie]
Arnaud: anyone want to give an update to the actions listed. there are a bunch still listed and I've been probing to have people clean that up.
18:28:17 [wilkie]
Arnaud: with actions... either you complete the action, bring it up to the group, or there is something blocking you.
18:28:19 [shevski]
18:28:32 [wilkie]
Arnaud: so maybe with the f2f, you should take a look at that list and assess what is blocking you
18:28:33 [Arnaud]
ack shevski
18:28:36 [wilkie]
Arnaud: shevski?
18:29:04 [wilkie]
shevski: hey. I have a question: is there a list of where these specs are implemented.
18:29:13 [wilkie]
shevski: should we push to have more people using them
18:29:30 [wilkie]
18:29:45 [wilkie]
tantek: there is a list for activity streams somewhere off the homepage that lists implementations
18:29:56 [wilkie]
tantek: most of those are a little outdated or about AS1
18:30:02 [Loqi]
Cwebber2 made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]]
18:30:03 [Loqi]
Eprodrom made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]]
18:30:11 [tantek] <--- outdated implementations
18:30:50 [wilkie]
Arnaud: btw when we go to CR we have to be formal about this. there is an implemention report we have to present to show the specs are implemented.
18:31:11 [aaronpk]
18:31:21 [wilkie]
shevski: is it worth having one of the agenda items to update that doc or create a new doc for that?
18:31:34 [wilkie]
shevski: and talk about what/who is in the pipeline for implementation and start that work
18:31:37 [wilkie]
Arnaud: I don't see why not
18:31:58 [bengo]
18:32:14 [wilkie]
tantek: right now we need volunteers, we need that document to be cleaner. can people (looking at bengo) add new items to this list or move this to a more general location.
18:32:29 [wilkie]
tantek: should we make that an action, Arnaud?
18:32:33 [wilkie]
Arnaud: a formal action?
18:32:35 [wilkie]
tantek: sure
18:33:12 [wilkie]
Arnaud: we aren't doing that good at tracking those actions. for me it is really for bengo to figure out if this is useful to him... the formal action. not doubting the importance of this page.
18:33:17 [Arnaud]
ack aaronpk
18:33:21 [tantek]
18:33:24 [sandro]
18:33:25 [aaronpk]
18:33:28 [aaronpk]
18:33:44 [bengo]
Maybe have implementation links/lists in the Document Status page sections?
18:33:46 [wilkie]
aaronpk: not on the queue but I want to jump in. I have implementations listed in the spec. so you can see how many implementations there are right now.
18:34:21 [wilkie]
Arnaud: maybe what we need is to put these on the document status page and we can add a link or a list
18:34:26 [wilkie]
tantek: add a link don't duplicate work
18:34:37 [wilkie]
sandro: you would rather not use a wiki for this aaronpk?
18:34:49 [wilkie]
aaronpk: I have no trouble with the current method and will take PRs
18:35:06 [wilkie]
sandro: going forward it cannot be in the spec because the list will change but the spec cannot change
18:35:18 [wilkie]
sandro: it surely is convenient, but we should aim to have it out of the spec at some point
18:35:44 [wilkie]
tantek: perhaps when we go to CR we can have a list "at the point of CR" and link to a wiki for more
18:36:00 [shevski]
18:36:07 [Arnaud]
ack sandro
18:36:07 [wilkie]
Arnaud: in the spec? it can be in the wiki, but it cannot be in the spec. we have to freeze the spec. it can have a pointer to implementations.
18:36:13 [wilkie]
sandro: but not a frozen link
18:36:31 [bengo]
q+ to wonder "Has there been a call for implementations for AS2 yet?"
18:36:47 [wilkie]
sandro: what comes to mind is w3 wiki slash implementations and that would be nice to have all implementations of specs but maybe a wiki isn't good enough and editors want more control
18:37:02 [shevski]
18:37:03 [wilkie]
tantek: wiki pages don't work because people can put things there and they disappear
18:37:18 [wilkie]
sandro: good pages have commentary but also will have test results
18:37:52 [cwebber]
AS2 has some implementations
18:37:58 [wilkie]
Arnaud: I think a page of informal list of implementations so we know what's there. and then there is the CR list which shows a formal knowledge of what is capable but not let the world add whatever
18:38:09 [bengo]
18:38:10 [wilkie]
Arnaud: it would be useful to gather that information regardless
18:38:12 [cwebber]
but not AP, AP has predecessor implementations in
18:38:15 [Arnaud]
ack bengo
18:38:15 [Zakim]
bengo, you wanted to wonder "Has there been a call for implementations for AS2 yet?"
18:38:23 [wilkie]
aaronpk: has there been a call for implementations for AS2?
18:38:23 [tantek]
wiki pages for implementations lists by themselves in particular seem kind of ineffective
18:38:27 [wilkie]
Arnaud: CR is that call for implementation
18:38:32 [aaronpk]
18:38:36 [wilkie]
18:39:19 [sandro]
Here's my idea of an Implementation Report:
18:39:44 [bengo]
18:39:53 [wilkie]
tantek: there hasn't been a formal call for implementations at the w3c but these days usually there is some degree of implementation throughout
18:40:02 [Loqi]
Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/DocumentStatus]]
18:40:04 [wilkie]
tantek: it is your and your company's call when to implement
18:40:05 [sandro]
or my first, from long ago:
18:40:22 [wilkie]
bengo: I've burned some social capital with older specs but the spec is currently very good
18:40:46 [wilkie]
Arnaud: that's the risk which is why formally there is that CR spec where people have agreed upon much of the spec and issues are closed
18:40:54 [tantek]
it's a trade-off. in the past we'd (W3C) also get unimplementable specs because no one tried.
18:40:56 [shevski]
sandro: re implementations, i was thinking something more human readable with context on use cases too
18:41:17 [wilkie]
Arnaud: and there is a tradeoff between the two approaches where you wait too long to implement fully and are more likely to find issues
18:41:33 [AnnB]
thanks Arnaud
18:41:34 [wilkie]
Arnaud: anything else? if not I'll give back the time and we'll meet next at the F2F meeting
18:41:36 [bengo]
+1 bye bye
18:41:38 [AnnB]
18:41:39 [tantek]
shevski - sounds worth discussing at the f2f
18:41:40 [Loqi]
wilkie has 29 karma
18:41:40 [wilkie]
Arnaud: although I personally will not be attending
18:41:45 [bengo]
18:41:46 [shevski]
18:41:47 [Loqi]
wilkie has 30 karma
18:41:54 [AnnB]
scribes are angels
18:41:57 [wilkie]
Arnaud: thanks. [praise of wilkie follows]
18:42:05 [bengo]
18:42:12 [cwebber]
18:42:14 [cwebber]
one more thing!
18:42:16 [wilkie]
Arnaud: thank you all for calling. bye
18:42:19 [cwebber]
nm :)
18:42:22 [shevski]
thanks all!
18:42:23 [cwebber]
so to anyone interested
18:42:28 [cwebber]
LibrePlanet is right after our meeting
18:42:36 [Arnaud]
trackbot, end meeting
18:42:36 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
18:42:36 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been wilkie, bengo, Arnaud, Rob_Sanderson, tantek, dmitriz, AnnB, aaronpk, Ira, sandro, rhiaro, eprodrom, KevinMarks, cwebber2, tsyesika
18:42:38 [cwebber]
18:42:44 [cwebber]
you may wish to come!
18:42:44 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:42:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
18:42:45 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
18:42:45 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items