IRC log of aapi on 2016-03-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:44:41 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
19:44:43 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
19:44:43 [Zakim]
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Zakim, this will be
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I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
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Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
19:44:47 [trackbot]
Date: 08 March 2016
19:44:58 [clown]
clown has changed the topic to: WebEx Access Code 641 707 405 (Next meeting 15-Mar-2016)
19:45:11 [clown]
chair: Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:45:38 [clown]
agenda: this
19:46:10 [clown]
agenda+ Adiministration: Daylight Savings Time for North America (at least) is in effect next week.
19:46:23 [clown]
agenda+ ACTION-2012/ACTION-2013/Action-1667 (Joseph, Cynthia) UIA mappings for landmark roles, pull request merged:
19:46:30 [clown]
agenda+ ACTION-1569/1585/ISSUE-540 (All) Section on AAPI differences - my response to Jason's latest, and including Cynthia's new example.
19:46:36 [clown]
agenda+ ACTION-1541 (Joseph) AXAPI mapping for aria-modal property -- update progress.
19:47:16 [clown]
agenda+ ACTION-2008: (Cynthia) Handle concept of description property for UIA.
19:47:27 [clown]
agenda+ ACTION-1668 (Rich/Alex) Add IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK for IA2.
19:47:34 [clown]
agenda+ ACTION-1681 (Joseph) Editorial change clarifying inclusions rules in 5.1.2
19:47:55 [clown]
agenda+ Triage: (start: ACTION-1686)
19:48:18 [clown]
agenda+ Also bugzillas:
19:48:26 [clown]
agenda+ be done.
19:52:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate clown
19:58:18 [joanie]
present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
20:00:32 [joanie]
present+ Bryan_Garaventa
20:00:52 [clown]
present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
20:01:43 [richardschwerdtfeger]
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20:05:03 [joanie]
present+ Cynthia_Shelly
20:05:18 [joanie]
present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
20:05:20 [cyns]
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20:05:59 [joanie]
Zakim, take up item 1
20:05:59 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Adiministration: Daylight Savings Time for North America (at least) is in effect next week." taken up [from clown]
20:06:34 [joanie]
JS: Quick reminder that next week North America is on Dayligh Saving Time.
20:06:42 [joanie]
20:06:52 [joanie]
Zakim, next item
20:06:52 [Zakim]
agendum 1 was just opened, joanie
20:06:58 [joanie]
Zakim, close this item
20:06:58 [Zakim]
agendum 1 closed
20:06:59 [Zakim]
I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
20:06:59 [Zakim]
2. ACTION-2012/ACTION-2013/Action-1667 (Joseph, Cynthia) UIA mappings for landmark roles, pull request merged: [from clown]
20:06:59 [joanie]
Zakim, next item
20:07:00 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "ACTION-2012/ACTION-2013/Action-1667 (Joseph, Cynthia) UIA mappings for landmark roles, pull request merged:" taken up [from clown]
20:07:05 [clown]
20:07:05 [trackbot]
action-2012 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to UIA mapping for role="region" (Github issue #243) -- due 2016-02-12 -- PENDINGREVIEW
20:07:05 [trackbot]
20:07:14 [clown]
20:07:14 [trackbot]
action-2013 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to UIA mapping for role=navigation (GIthub issue #242) -- due 2016-02-12 -- PENDINGREVIEW
20:07:14 [trackbot]
20:07:24 [clown]
20:07:24 [trackbot]
action-1667 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Update the mapping spec for aria role region to reflect its landmark inheritance as defined in the aria 1.1 spec. -- due 2016-02-26 -- PENDINGREVIEW
20:07:24 [trackbot]
20:07:44 [clown]
20:07:44 [trackbot]
action-2012 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to UIA mapping for role="region" (Github issue #243) -- due 2016-02-12 -- PENDINGREVIEW
20:07:44 [trackbot]
20:08:02 [clown]
20:08:05 [joanie]
JS: Cynthia has this pull request.
20:08:10 [joanie]
JS: URL above.
20:08:19 [clown]
20:08:20 [joanie]
JS: She makes changes to the various landmark roles for UIA.
20:08:31 [cyns_]
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20:08:48 [joanie]
CS: These are all similar.
20:09:13 [joanie]
CS: We added two new properties: landmark-type and localized-landmark-type.
20:09:21 [joanie]
CS: The latter is a user-facing string.
20:10:01 [joanie]
CS: A number of the landmarks are not direct mappings, in which case we use "custom" and then a localized landmark type string for the specific name.
20:10:55 [joanie]
CS: For ARIA, the localized control type and localized landmark type strings will always be the same.
20:11:17 [joanie]
CS: For HTML, the localized control type will be the same as HTML, and the localized landmark type will be the ARIA string.
20:11:34 [joanie]
CS: This is what the landmark is called (header versus banner, for example).
20:12:15 [joanie]
CS: Adding the localized landmark type based on ARIA will make them available in verbose mode.
20:13:04 [joanie]
CS: I did make some of the strings more user-friendly (e.g. "contentinfo" to "content information")
20:14:05 [clown]
20:14:17 [joanie]
JS: The URL above has Cynthia's changes.
20:14:34 [joanie]
JS: (reads from table)
20:14:54 [joanie]
CS: The fact that the landmark type is non null means Narrator will pick it up.
20:15:00 [joanie]
JS: Everyone ok with this?
20:16:14 [joanie]
(Group discusses the nature of the names of various landmark types)
20:19:02 [clown]
20:19:20 [joanie]
JS: The only problem I had is that it changed the phrase "control type/role" to "Control Type."
20:20:33 [joanie]
JS: I went through the document and made this change for the rest of the Core AAM.
20:20:35 [richardschwerdtfeger]
20:23:29 [joanie]
CS: It looks fine.
20:23:43 [joanie]
JS: Then I will push all those changes in and close the relative actions.
20:24:11 [joanie]
JS: And the github issues as well?
20:24:13 [joanie]
CS: Yes.
20:24:24 [joanie]
Zakim, next item.
20:24:24 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "ACTION-1569/1585/ISSUE-540 (All) Section on AAPI differences - my response to Jason's latest, and including Cynthia's new example." taken up [from clown]
20:24:39 [clown]
20:24:39 [trackbot]
action-1569 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Create a section that describes AAPI differences -- due 2016-02-23 -- PENDINGREVIEW
20:24:39 [trackbot]
20:25:01 [clown]
20:25:01 [trackbot]
action-1585 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Add to the section on differences among aapis highlighting the features of uia. -- due 2016-01-15 -- PENDINGREVIEW
20:25:01 [trackbot]
20:25:16 [clown]
20:25:16 [trackbot]
action-2032 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Provide a new example for the accessibility api explanatory text. -- due 2016-03-01 -- OPEN
20:25:16 [trackbot]
20:25:27 [clown]
20:25:35 [joanie]
JS: Here's the URL (above) with the text.
20:25:44 [cyns]
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20:25:45 [joanie]
JS: This is Jason's branch.
20:25:56 [clown]
20:26:49 [joanie]
CS: It's in 1.3.2.
20:27:12 [joanie]
JS: Cynthia gave me new text for an example for treeitem control type for UIA.
20:27:52 [joanie]
CS: It's just an example to illustrate control types in UIA.
20:28:32 [joanie]
JS: I am just asking Cynthia if this is ok.
20:28:54 [joanie]
CS: I noticed one nit, namely that tree items are not actually sentient.
20:29:22 [joanie]
RS: But a tree item is not always expandable.
20:29:27 [joanie]
CS: It is in UIA.
20:29:40 [joanie]
RS + JS: What are the leaves called?
20:30:01 [joanie]
CS: I believe they are still tree items, but they might be links or buttons.
20:30:28 [joanie]
CS: The purpose of this example is to explain what is required versus optional, and what control patterns are.
20:30:47 [joanie]
CS: For instance a tree item must be expandible, it might or might not also be scrollable.
20:31:47 [joanie]
20:32:02 [joanie]
CS: If this example is confusing, I could come up with a different one.
20:32:18 [joanie]
CS: Or we could just say this is good enough for now.
20:32:29 [joanie]
JS: I think it's good enough for now, but Rich seems to have concerns.
20:32:44 [joanie]
CS: The goal of the example is to show how control patterns can be mixed together.
20:32:59 [joanie]
CS: Does it address that goal?
20:33:28 [joanie]
BG: Does leaf node count for checkable item state?
20:33:41 [joanie]
CS: A tree item could have children that are, among other things, checkable.
20:33:56 [joanie]
CS: You can add any pattern to any item.
20:34:09 [joanie]
CS: But by default, expand/collapse is the only required pattern for tree item.
20:34:39 [joanie]
JS: Jason Kiss is the one who suggested these sections be added.
20:34:59 [joanie]
JS: Rich, do you have a better example?
20:35:04 [joanie]
RS: What about a slider?
20:35:23 [joanie]
CS: I don't think that's a control type, but a pattern (range).
20:35:52 [joanie]
CS: There is a slider control type.
20:36:11 [joanie]
CS: But it doesn't have a required control type.
20:36:20 [joanie]
CS: Which is why I didn't pick it for this example.
20:36:24 [joanie]
RS: Scrollbar?
20:36:39 [joanie]
CS: Has no required patterns.
20:36:47 [joanie]
RS: It's not required to scroll?
20:37:13 [joanie]
CS: I could use radio button, but radio button is not allowed to have the toggle pattern.
20:38:01 [joanie]
CS: (Reviews other controls for better example, and finds no better option.)
20:38:35 [joanie]
RS: Any reason why we don't use the 'code' tag in this text for the UIA tree item control type?
20:38:43 [joanie]
CS: Probably a good idea that we do that.
20:39:05 [joanie]
JS: This text is on Jason Kiss's branch, by the way.
20:39:35 [joanie]
CS: Suggestion: Go ahead and commit this and then give me a new issue or action to fix the rest (e.g. 'code' tags)
20:39:49 [joanie]
JS: It's showing up in the spec now, but it's in a branch.
20:39:55 [clown]
20:39:57 [joanie]
JS: There's a pull request from Jason (above).
20:40:08 [joanie]
JS: And he's still working on it, so I'm not ready to commit it to master.
20:40:19 [joanie]
JS: If you go to that URL, you'll see I added some things.
20:40:34 [joanie]
CS: So I would need to make changes to Jason's branch?
20:40:37 [joanie]
JS: Yes.
20:41:23 [joanie]
(Action reassigned to Cynthia with note to make edititorial changes discussed)
20:41:49 [clown]
20:42:02 [joanie]
JS: Note added to action-2032.
20:42:17 [joanie]
JS: You might want to email Jason to tell him you're working on his branch.
20:42:20 [joanie]
Zakim, next item
20:42:20 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "ACTION-1541 (Joseph) AXAPI mapping for aria-modal property -- update progress." taken up [from clown]
20:42:26 [clown]
20:42:26 [trackbot]
action-1541 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Investigate and propose mappings for aria-modal property for axapi. -- due 2016-02-08 -- OPEN
20:42:26 [trackbot]
20:42:35 [joanie]
JS: I don't think I have any new information.
20:42:55 [joanie]
JS: Before last week's meeting, I posed a question in WebKit's bugzilla.
20:42:57 [clown]
20:43:09 [joanie]
JS: And I haven't gotten an answer.
20:44:03 [joanie]
JD: Did you try what I suggested?
20:46:25 [joanie]
JD: Assign this to me to try what I am suggesting you do. I have a current trunk build of Safari.
20:46:28 [clown]
action: Joanie to run the webkit aria-modal test file to see what happens vis-a-vis the background.
20:46:29 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2038 - Run the webkit aria-modal test file to see what happens vis-a-vis the background. [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2016-03-15].
20:46:39 [clown]
20:46:39 [trackbot]
action-2038 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Run the webkit aria-modal test file to see what happens vis-a-vis the background. -- due 2016-03-15 -- OPEN
20:46:39 [trackbot]
20:47:26 [joanie]
Zakim, next item
20:47:26 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "ACTION-2008: (Cynthia) Handle concept of description property for UIA." taken up [from clown]
20:47:36 [clown]
20:47:36 [trackbot]
action-2008 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Handle concept of description property for UIA -- due 2016-03-01 -- PENDINGREVIEW
20:47:36 [trackbot]
20:47:40 [joanie]
JS: I just saw this come in today.
20:48:14 [joanie]
JS: (Reads from comment)
20:48:24 [joanie]
We are adding a UIA property called "FullDescription" in addition to the existing "Name" and "HelpText" properties and "LabeledBy" and "DescribedBy" relationships It is not yet in public builds. I will update UIA mappings to include it.
20:48:32 [joanie]
JS: And you assigned this to me.
20:48:39 [joanie]
CS: Because it was due today.
20:48:57 [joanie]
JS: So I'll assign it back to you and re-set the status to open.
20:49:08 [joanie]
JS: And once you've made the edits, reassign it back to me.
20:51:57 [joanie]
Topic: aria-kbdshortcuts
20:52:02 [joanie]
20:52:02 [trackbot]
action-2036 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Modify aria-kbdshortcut based on group feedback -- due 2016-03-06 -- OPEN
20:52:02 [trackbot]
20:52:11 [joanie]
CS: I looked at what's available in UIA.
20:52:17 [joanie]
CS: My notes are in action-1635
20:52:20 [joanie]
20:52:22 [trackbot]
Sorry, but action-1635 does not exist.
20:52:24 [richardschwerdtfeger]
20:52:30 [cyns]
20:52:43 [joanie]
20:53:00 [joanie]
CS: UIA has a couple of things in the ballpark, but neither are an exact match.
20:53:16 [joanie]
CS: Accelerator key are typically Ctrl (e.g. Ctrl+S to save)
20:54:00 [joanie]
CS: Access keys (also called mnemonics) are the things where the underline shows up when you hold down the Alt key.
20:54:17 [joanie]
RS: Mnemonics typically give focus to something, but not activate them.
20:54:29 [joanie]
CS: That's not the case in menus, which is where they are frequently used.
20:54:37 [joanie]
RS: Accelerators always invoke.
20:54:39 [joanie]
CS: Yes.
20:55:08 [joanie]
CS: I think Accelerator key is closer, but it does invoke.
20:55:23 [joanie]
CS: And there was some discussion about whether invoking was required or optional.
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20:55:38 [joanie]
RS: Our aria-kbdshortcuts is for documentation.
20:56:09 [joanie]
RS: But it won't give it focus.
20:56:33 [joanie]
CS: The way that it seems to work in UIA is that if it's put on something invokable, it invokes; otherwise it gives is focus.
20:57:01 [joanie]
CS: I'm not sure if exposing aria-kbdshortcuts in this fashion is going to cause a change in user interaction.
20:57:10 [joanie]
RS: So when it's exposed in your API....
20:57:17 [joanie]
CS: I think that wires it up to be invoked.
20:58:09 [joanie]
CS: In the case of a link, it should invoke; in the case of a text field, it should focus.
20:58:19 [joanie]
RS: That's ok because it's essentially a click.
20:58:23 [joanie]
CS: Yes, invoke is click.
20:58:33 [joanie]
RS: If you click on a text field, it's going to focus.
20:58:40 [joanie]
RS: So I think that's ok.
20:59:12 [joanie]
CS: Either one is fine, if we want to scope it tightly for 1.1.
20:59:21 [joanie]
CS: On a set that's larger, I think I can do that too.
20:59:32 [joanie]
CS: My concern is that if we do so, Windows is going to start doing things.
20:59:53 [joanie]
RS: I'm a little worried about it because if you do the invoke, it would happen under the covers.
21:00:09 [joanie]
CS: UIA is a two-way API; ARIA is a one-way API. It's a mismatch.
21:00:41 [joanie]
21:02:10 [joanie]
JD: I am pretty sure the spec specifically states that no action is supposed to occur as a result of the exposure.
21:02:25 [joanie]
JD: And that the author is required to do all the user-interaction implementation.
21:02:47 [joanie]
JD: It's just notifying ATs of the existence of this property.
21:03:14 [joanie]
CS: I may be able to do this on my platform, but I'm not yet sure.
21:03:27 [joanie]
CS: I'll dig a bit more and see if these things can be separated.
21:04:32 [joanie]
RRSAgent, make minutes
21:04:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate joanie
21:05:03 [joanie]
scribenick: joanie
21:05:07 [joanie]
RRSAgent, make minutes
21:05:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate joanie
21:05:43 [joanie]
Zakim, part
21:05:43 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Joanmarie_Diggs, Bryan_Garaventa, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Cynthia_Shelly, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
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Zakim has left #aapi
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scribeOptions: -final
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RRSAgent, stop