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17:21:43 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/02/25-aria-irc
17:21:45 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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17:21:47 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
17:21:47 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
17:21:47 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
17:21:48 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
17:21:48 <trackbot> Date: 25 February 2016
17:22:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C ARIA Working Group Meeting
17:22:14 <jemma> jemma has joined #aria
17:22:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
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17:23:00 <jemma> present+ JaEunJemmaKu
17:27:18 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Feb/0398.html
17:27:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:28:22 <janina> present+ Janina
17:28:44 <dkaplan3> present+ Deborah_Kaplan
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17:30:57 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
17:31:16 <fesch> present+ fesch
17:31:43 <Stefan> Stefan has joined #aria
17:32:58 <Stefan> Scribe: Stefan
17:33:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Feb/0398.html
17:33:32 <clown> clown has joined #aria
17:33:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria-admin/2016Feb/0007.html
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17:34:04 <Stefan> Topic: issue 1009 CFC
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17:34:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria-admin/2016Feb/0007.html
17:34:34 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:34:48 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:34:49 <Stefan> Rich: any input?
17:35:18 <Stefan> Joanie: Joseph proposed change, was that made?
17:36:05 <Stefan> Joanie: should I wait?
17:36:11 <clown> is this the url: https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/issue1009/aria/aria.html#aria-details
17:36:12 <Stefan> Rich: go pull it
17:36:13 <clown> ?
17:36:26 <Stefan> Joanie: I will merge
17:36:37 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/issue1009/aria/aria.html#aria-details
17:36:41 <MichielBijl> present+ MichielBijl
17:36:52 <MichielBijl> present- MichielBijl
17:36:58 <MichielBijl> present+ Michiel_Bijl
17:37:03 <Stefan> Rich : OK I made the change
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17:37:21 <Stefan> Rich: next thing is heartbeat drafts
17:37:34 <clown> action-2031
17:37:34 <trackbot> action-2031 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Update ARIA 1.1 Abstract and Introduction to accommodate SVG in addition to HTML -- due 2016-03-01 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:37:34 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2031
17:37:42 <mck> mck has joined #aria
17:37:43 <Stefan> Rich: Michael 2031 and merge it?
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17:38:08 <Stefan> Michael: i'm not ready yet
17:38:08 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action2031/aria/aria.html
17:38:21 <Stefan> Rich: when is the date?
17:38:21 <mck> present+ matt_king
17:38:23 <LJWatson> present+ LJWatson
17:38:39 <Stefan> Michael: have to look to editors minutes
17:38:45 <clown> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Feb/0383.html
17:39:14 <Stefan> Michael: not this week .. next week
17:39:26 <Stefan> Michael: by March 11th
17:39:29 <MichaelC> -> https://www.w3.org/2016/02/17-aria-editors-minutes.html#item01 Current publication timelines
17:40:05 <Stefan> Rich: Joanie ready next week?
17:40:20 <MichaelC> present+ MichaelC
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17:42:01 <Stefan> Rich: we have dpub graphics etc. should we put all in there?
17:42:45 <Stefan> Michael: q for the group, personal opinion is better to point to intermediate resource, reccommended: aria intro
17:43:06 <MichaelC> -> https://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/aria ARIA Intro
17:43:29 <Stefan> Rich: anybody issue with it?
17:43:52 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action2031/aria/aria.html
17:44:01 <Stefan> Still action 2031
17:44:24 <Stefan> Joseph: theres a huge list of docs ...
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17:45:26 <Stefan> Here were no objections to Rich's question
17:46:03 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:46:10 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
17:46:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/25-aria-minutes.html jamesn
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17:47:25 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
17:47:28 <Stefan> Matt: people needs to be aware of aria versions there are looking at
17:48:02 <MichaelC> -> https://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/aria#wai-aria-1_1 1.1 specific part of the ARIA intro
17:48:07 <Stefan> Rich: some refs will be removed
17:48:47 <Stefan> Rich: we need cFC for non-normative text .. but action is closed .. objections? None
17:49:52 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action2031/aria/aria.html#ua-support
17:49:59 <Stefan> Rich: section 1.3 has old link to imp guide
17:50:16 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action2031/aria/aria.html#at_support
17:50:27 <Stefan> Rich: needs some polishing -> action to Michael
17:50:39 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: Michael Search for old links and update them in the ARIA 1.1 spec.
17:50:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2033 - Search for old links and update them in the aria 1.1 spec. [on Michael Cooper - due 2016-03-03].
17:51:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: Rich Remove reference to UAAG and reference EO ARIA 1.1 Suite of documents
17:51:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2034 - Remove reference to uaag and reference eo aria 1.1 suite of documents [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2016-03-03].
17:51:33 <Stefan> RESOLUTION: close 707 and action 2031
17:51:54 <clown> issue-707
17:51:54 <trackbot> issue-707 -- Update ARIA 1.1 Abstract and Introduction -- open
17:51:54 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/707
17:52:13 <Stefan> topic: ARIA Test Coordination Call to
17:52:30 <Stefan> Topic: ARIA Test Coordination Call #
17:52:32 <clown> http://doodle.com/poll/g4kixuskyfvgmm24hakmvpig/admin#table
17:54:13 <Stefan> Michael: checking the invites ..
17:54:22 <Stefan> Rich: we can do this by email
17:54:28 <Stefan> Rich: after the call
17:54:46 <Stefan> Rich: there is a separate list
17:54:54 <MichaelC> Webex for next monday´s meeting: https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m7e86f0230b1b7a09167aa46b4be2800a meeting number 647 399 010
17:55:23 <Stefan> Michael: forward to testing group
17:56:13 <Stefan> Topic: COMBO BOX
17:56:28 <Stefan>  1490: Combobox (20 minutes *max* discussion) Matt
17:56:31 <clown> action-1490
17:56:31 <trackbot> action-1490 -- Matthew King to Propose spec text edit for issue-610: comboboxes should allow complex children elements -- due 2016-02-03 -- OPEN
17:56:31 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1490
17:56:49 <mck> <div role=combobox aria-owns=list> <span role=textbox> </span> </div> <ul id=list role = listbox> </ul>
17:56:59 <Stefan> Matt: we have consesus around 1.1 structural for combo
17:57:23 <Stefan> Matt: composite widget, has a textbox, popoup element shown as listbox and siblings
17:57:44 <Stefan> Matt: clear to NVDA and FS on board from API perspective
17:58:44 <Stefan> Matt: advantages for 1.1 structure: 1. you can determine value of combo since there is textbox element 2. screen reader has ability to make both parts seprately percievable
17:59:25 <mck> <div role=combobox aria-owns=list> <span tabindex=0 role=textbox>value being edited </span> </div> <ul id=list role = listbox> focusable options with tabindex -1 </ul>
18:00:04 <Stefan> Matt: next part of discussion: focus managenment and ara-activedescendant: if focus is on textbox (DOM focus)
18:00:40 <mck> <div role=combobox aria-owns=list> <span tabindex=0 aria-activedescendant=opt1 role=textbox> </span> </div> <ul id=list role = listbox> <li id=opt1 tabindex=-1> </li> </ul>
18:00:54 <Stefan> Matt: when listbox expanded and activedescendant: hopeully will be agreement tthat this above will be ok
18:02:26 <Stefan> Matt:: diffwrence between 1.0 and 1.1 now descendat of parent within the tree .. this actually works in all browseers .. questuiion is formalizing this when textbox in combo has focus and uses aria-active descendant
18:02:51 <Stefan> Rich: you have owns on combo but activedescendant on textbox?
18:03:01 <clown> q+ to point out that tabindex=-1 on the list options is unneccessary in an activedescedant scenario.
18:03:02 <Stefan> Matt: right
18:03:30 <Stefan> Cynthia: what about aruia-controls to relate the parts
18:03:43 <Stefan> Matt: this does the composite container concept
18:04:04 <Stefan> Matt: activedescendant is on textbox because of DOM focus
18:04:14 <Stefan> Matt: is also therer
18:04:30 <Stefan> Matt: this way it works
18:04:38 <Stefan> Joseph: it works by ACIDENT
18:05:03 <richardschwerdtfeger> s/ACIDENT/accident/
18:05:14 <Stefan> JOseph: it creates isse for what's is focusabe
18:05:28 <Stefan> Joseph: descendendt of descendants doesnt happen here
18:05:29 <bgaraventa1979> +q
18:05:41 <Stefan> Cynthia: do we need this?
18:06:05 <Stefan> Cynthia: then we need to rewirte aria-activedescendant definitrion
18:06:31 <Stefan> Rich: aria-controls on combobox that controls textbox
18:06:46 <Stefan> Matt: messy from authoring perspective
18:06:54 <fesch> +1 to it being messy for authors
18:07:11 <Stefan> Matt: by this pattern we know what behaviour we want from combo box
18:07:33 <Stefan> Matt: author should NOT do work of user agent
18:07:50 <Stefan> Rich: descendant is descendant of item that has focus
18:08:20 <Stefan> Rich: textbox on behalf of combo has focus
18:08:51 <Stefan> Matt: one of two pssibilities: ativedescendant on textbox is proxy for combo
18:09:06 <clown> <div tabindex=0  role=combobox aria-owns=list aria-activedescendant> <span role=textbox>value being edited </span> </div> <ul id=list role = listbox> focusable options with IDs </ul>
18:09:06 <Stefan> Matt: other thing is with DOM focus
18:09:14 <fesch> q+ to say this is way to technical and tricky for authors
18:09:46 <Stefan> Matt: both are equally good .. from semantic perspective .. for implementation I prefer first way
18:09:57 <Stefan> Matt: activedescendant on textbox
18:10:41 <Stefan> Brian: seen many implementations .. you cannot guarantee parent-child relationships on combos .. style trums everything
18:10:54 <Stefan> Matt:: this structure fixes the problem
18:11:15 <Stefan> Brian: aria-controls will better fix that
18:11:30 <Stefan> Matt: bad idea frm API perspective saays AT developers
18:11:53 <Stefan> Cynthia: implementation just moves the focus
18:12:00 <clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#aria-activedescendant
18:12:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> s/diffwrence/difference/
18:12:36 <Stefan> Matt: AT dwevelopers ignore activedescendant when not in context .. so no problem for them
18:13:29 <Stefan> Matt: in IE, when you mouseover menus, activedescendants is pointing to elements within menu and not related to elememt with dom focus .. all AT ignoring that
18:13:43 <Stefan> Cynthia: when are they using the DOM?
18:14:08 <fesch> this is a brittle pattern
18:14:34 <clown> <div tabindex=0  role=combobox aria-owns=list aria-activedescendant="option5"> <span role=textbox>value being edited </span> </div> <ul id=list role = listbox> focusable options with IDs </ul>
18:14:35 <Stefan> Cynthia: as UA, I don't want resolve parent-chuild relationships
18:14:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:15:02 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack clown
18:15:02 <Zakim> clown, you wanted to point out that tabindex=-1 on the list options is unneccessary in an activedescedant scenario.
18:15:08 <clown> <div tabindex=0  role=combobox aria-owns=list aria-activedescendant> <span role=textbox>value being edited </span> </div> <ul id=list role = listbox> focusable options with IDs </ul>
18:15:29 <Stefan> Joseph: tabindex=0 on combo and aria-activedescendant on it
18:15:43 <Stefan> Matt: causes lotta issues in edit case
18:16:12 <Stefan> Joseph: not when textbox is a span and JS will put the chars in it
18:16:34 <Stefan> Matt: has huge impact on JS for non-editable content (??)
18:16:56 <Stefan> +q
18:17:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack bgaraventa
18:17:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack fesch
18:17:44 <Zakim> fesch, you wanted to say this is way to technical and tricky for authors
18:17:47 <Stefan> Fred: tis is a brittle (?) pattern
18:17:55 <Stefan> Fred: sorrta magic
18:18:12 <Stefan> Matt: we are not confused we need to make descision
18:18:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack Stefan
18:18:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
18:19:44 <cyns> q+ to say the UIA control pattern for combobox has a container with an edit and a list, like Matt's structure
18:20:51 <Stefan> Rich: for a container as a widget, can we say active child ?
18:21:19 <cyns> q?
18:21:36 <Stefan> Rich: as long as you have a place in a container widget
18:21:57 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack
18:22:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:22:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack me
18:22:40 <Stefan> Cynthia: UIA Comb box is a container with a edit and a list and expand/collaps pattern
18:22:53 <Stefan> Rich: time is over
18:23:08 <cyns> UIA combobox docs https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ee671622(v=vs.85).aspx
18:23:33 <Stefan> Rich: do people mind if Matt + Joseph change definition of activedescendant?
18:23:48 <Stefan> Cynthia: make the spec match
18:24:34 <Stefan> Matt: update action related to this and bring on an actual revised branch / update  based on discussion .. but after next week
18:24:58 <Stefan> Rich: activedescendant for the widget .. you can do and say that
18:25:20 <Stefan> Brian: we should avoid examples where it won't work
18:25:51 <Stefan> Joseph: core AM docs .. looking at it
18:26:00 <Stefan> Rich : moving on
18:26:18 <Stefan> Topic: Action 2021: Draft text for default max and min spinbutton values
18:26:20 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action-2021/aria/aria.html#spinbutton
18:26:34 <clown> action-2021
18:26:34 <trackbot> action-2021 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Draft text for default max and min spinbutton values -- due 2016-02-18 -- PENDINGREVIEW
18:26:34 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2021
18:27:14 <Stefan> Joanie: I added a nrmative statement for UA's
18:27:25 <joanie> Authors must set the aria-valuemin, aria-valuemax, and aria-valuenow attributes. If missing, user agents must set the values of these attributes using the rules for the equivalent native host language element.
18:27:38 <fesch> s/nrmative/normative/
18:27:39 <joanie> Implicit Value for Role:	Default for aria-valuemin is the same as the equivalent native host language element.
18:27:42 <joanie> Default for aria-valuemax is the same as the equivalent native host language element.
18:27:45 <joanie> Default for aria-valuenow is the same as the equivalent native host language element
18:29:21 <Stefan> Matt: HTML AAAM has mapping?!
18:29:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> s/HTML AAAM/HTML AAM
18:30:39 <Stefan> Matt: for an author is simple: spec the value
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18:31:07 <Stefan> Joseph: spin button in SVG ? Rich: no
18:31:14 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
18:31:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/25-aria-minutes.html jamesn
18:32:07 <Stefan> Matt: should spec value that exists in real wold
18:32:26 <Stefan> Cynthia: we should implicit role for value
18:32:58 <Stefan> joseph: HTML5 spin button does not require valuemin and max
18:33:10 <Stefan> Joseph: can be anything
18:33:29 <Stefan> Joseph: temperature max .. can be infinity
18:34:07 <Stefan> Joseph: HTML5 is saying ... ya don#t NEED to spec this
18:34:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:34:56 <Stefan> Cynthia: UA's say there must be maximum
18:35:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack cyncs
18:35:15 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:35:22 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack cyns
18:35:22 <Zakim> cyns, you wanted to say the UIA control pattern for combobox has a container with an edit and a list, like Matt's structure
18:35:22 <mck> q+
18:35:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:36:24 <Stefan> Matt: if the author doesn't spec min/max .. will we get inconsistent behaviour among browsers?
18:36:57 <Stefan> Cynthia: If platform API reqquires integer then we have an issue
18:37:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:37:23 <Stefan> JOanie: can we move on?
18:37:57 <Stefan> joseph: if platforms require values, the DOM isn't .. acc api is sayin zero .. mismatch
18:38:11 <joanie> s/on?/on because I have more to think about and research, and we have a guest to discuss aria-linktype?/
18:38:28 <Stefan> Matt: no SR does minmax yet for spinbutton, for sliders they do
18:38:48 <Stefan> Topic: Action 2006: Draft proposal for new aria-linktype role Joanie
18:39:18 <Stefan> Rich: we have discussion with linktypes witrh Jamwes Craig
18:39:35 <Stefan> Rich: then subrole discussions came
18:40:04 <Stefan> Rich: linktype go around is for epub .. do we want that? also in APG?
18:40:07 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:40:07 <dkaplan3> q+
18:40:19 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack mck
18:41:45 <Stefan> Deborah: funct. req. is: couple of key things, 1. why taxonomy ? we want to be able to say reading system for different stuff
18:42:19 <cyns> q+ to say what about aria-annotation proposal? There is some overlap, for example footnotes and comments https://www.w3.org/2014/04/annotation/submissions/Microsoft_Position_Paper_on_Annotations.pdf
18:42:22 <Stefan> Deborah: role we want make sure that vocab will cause AT make browsers to do the right thing
18:43:05 <Stefan> Rich: can call main role alink, then it is also a glossary reference (typed link)
18:43:16 <Stefan> Rich: subrole in UIA?
18:43:25 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:43:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack dkaplan
18:43:36 <Stefan> Cynthia: annotation control pattern can be used but we don't have subroeles
18:43:57 <Stefan> Cynthia: we have a proposal for annotations - almost done
18:44:17 <Stefan> Rich: aria is an annotation as well
18:44:20 <cyns> UIA annotation pattern https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/hh448769(v=vs.85).aspx
18:45:04 <Stefan> Cynthia: can be mapped
18:45:31 <Stefan> ich: don't think so .. in middle of doc you cannot see eg glossary references
18:45:45 <Stefan> Rich: we have no vehicle witrh remote refs
18:46:19 <Stefan> Rich: you can do localized role description
18:46:36 <Stefan> Cynthia: gets pretty overloaded - may work
18:46:47 <Stefan> Cynthia: we do this for lotta other stuff
18:47:25 <Stefan> Rich: you can put role link yielding control type link but not properties, right? Cynthia: no
18:47:53 <Stefan> Cynthia: aria-banana will be shrubed to aria propertis in UIA API
18:48:03 <joanie> s/shrubed/shoved/
18:48:30 <Stefan> Cynthia: what is the proposal?
18:49:02 <dkaplan3> q+
18:49:05 <Stefan> Rich: role equals glossary refernd
18:49:53 <Stefan> Rich: role=link linktype=foo
18:50:12 <Stefan> Rich: keep separation in the mapping itsself
18:50:38 <Stefan> Matt: if yu make a link with, hoe many different roles? (??)
18:51:26 <Stefan> Matt: different types, biblio, footnote, glossary etc.  .. list shold be expandable who does this?
18:52:36 <Stefan> Deborah: we have a comprehensive list and will maintain that (?)
18:53:00 <fesch> Lisa Seeman wanted COGA to coordinate with linktype and shortcuts
18:53:15 <clown> richardschwerdtfeger:  ^
18:53:15 <dkaplan3> Curent list is at https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action-2006/aria/aria.html#aria-linktype
18:53:36 <Stefan> Rich: we will make sure that AT will be able to differentiate the link types
18:55:17 <Stefan> Matt: we will take these and make them part of core?
18:55:26 <Stefan> Rich: do people want this?
18:55:38 <MichielBijl> +1 to footnote
18:56:04 <Stefan> +q
18:56:33 <Stefan> -q
18:56:48 <mck> q?
18:57:08 <Stefan> Rich: there seem to be giid arguments for that
18:57:09 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:57:10 <AmeliaBR> Some of this functionality could be handled by role-description. The benefit of having standard link types is that the name can be localized by the user agent/AT.
18:57:48 <Stefan> Rich: proposals seem a bit to overlap
18:57:55 <joanie> AmeliaBR: Not just localized, but programmatically processed with specialized logic.
18:58:34 <Stefan> Matt: mainstream browsers need support these particular roles
18:58:58 <Stefan> RESOLUTION: DPUB link types preceed as standard roles
18:59:04 <clown> AmeliaBR, joanie, James Craig reject the approach using role description.
18:59:16 <Stefan> (in their name spaces)
19:00:26 <Stefan> rrsagent, make minutes
19:00:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/25-aria-minutes.html Stefan
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