16:28:16 RRSAgent has joined #apa 16:28:16 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/02/24-apa-irc 16:28:18 RRSAgent, make logs world 16:28:18 Zakim has joined #apa 16:28:20 Zakim, this will be 16:28:20 I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot 16:28:21 Meeting: Accessible Platform Architectures Working Group Teleconference 16:28:21 Date: 24 February 2016 16:28:28 agenda? 16:28:32 agenda+ preview agenda with items from two minutes 16:28:32 agenda+ CSS Flexbox & A11y [See Below] 16:28:32 agenda+ Actions Review (Specs) https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/products/8 16:28:32 agenda+ new on TR http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html 16:28:33 agenda+ Other Business 16:28:35 agenda+ next and future meetings http://www.w3.org/Guide/1998/08/teleconference-calendar#s_273 16:28:38 agenda+ be done 16:54:07 Thanks, Shane. BTW, got your Spec-Ops email and will respond. 17:01:43 Rossen has joined #apa 17:02:05 JF has joined #APA 17:02:09 fesch has joined #apa 17:03:09 present+ Rossen 17:03:19 present+ cyns 17:03:20 present+ fesch 17:03:22 mck has joined #apa 17:03:23 Present+ JF 17:03:27 fantasai has joined #apa 17:03:32 present+ Janina 17:03:44 scribe: 17:03:50 scribe: fesch 17:03:59 present+ MichaelC 17:04:16 present+ matt_king 17:04:41 Rich has joined #apa 17:05:02 present+ fantasai 17:05:32 present+ Joanmarie_Diggs 17:06:14 zakim, next item 17:06:15 agendum 1. "preview agenda with items from two minutes" taken up [from janina] 17:06:27 present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger 17:06:35 rese/me is lurking 17:06:40 Gottfried has joined #apa 17:06:59 LJWatson has joined #apa 17:07:14 present+ LJWatson 17:07:41 js: anyone with news or items? 17:07:53 present+ MichielBijl 17:08:20 lw: web platform WG looking at picking up bugs and cary on activity, anyone in APA interested in joining? 17:08:30 jf: I like that 17:08:55 lw: we are predominately European so the time may reflect that 17:09:15 cs: had a post about edge and one pillar is accessibility 17:09:44 Note that W3C is switching over to new stylesheets on 1 March 17:09:52 jf: activity in TV around a cloud based browser, JF working with them about accessibility requirements 17:10:48 fantasi: bug in Chome about following links fixed 17:10:51 Q+ 17:10:57 New parts of ISO/IEC 24752 Universal Remote Console, approved: Part 7 on RESTful target integration; part 8 on user interface resource framework. 17:11:09 ack jf 17:11:38 jf: W3C switching over to a new style sheet, thanks for be sensitive to accessibility concerns in the new style sheet 17:11:52 zakim,next item 17:11:52 agendum 2. "CSS Flexbox & A11y" taken up [from See Below] 17:12:06 (Regarding my above message: The projects for part 7 and 8 were approved; the documents have yet to be developed and approved. 17:12:17 present+ JamesN 17:12:19 js: where to start? 17:13:03 mk: consider starting with whether we have a proposal? Not sure where to start? 17:13:23 q+ 17:14:11 q+ 17:14:13 js: don't think we have a proposal, concerned that flexbox preserve reading order, benefits of reorganizing onscreen display can live with reading order 17:14:35 q? 17:14:49 mk: there is an engineering problem - we want reading order and keyboard sequence to preserve accessiblity 17:15:26 cyns has joined #apa 17:15:30 chaals has joined #apa 17:15:35 mk: differences in approach, where some people think that the reading order can't always be controlled by the DOM others think reordering the DOM is feasable 17:15:37 q+ 17:16:51 mk; everyone sees an appeal on not having to rely on the DOM, but once you dig into the weeds, then having a single way of controlling the reading order is nice - predictable 17:17:26 fantasai: keeping the DOM order is easy to work with authors 17:17:36 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-apa/2016Jan/0025.html 17:17:58 rs: I put the post out on a solution see link 17:18:22 +1 to Rich's point - "disable CSS" is not a good "accessibility test" today 17:18:32 rs: we have lots of stuff like content injection where you can't see it in the DOM, flexbox affects user interaction 17:18:36 +1 to Rich's point about disabling CSS no longer being enough. 17:19:39 rs: if you change the way stuff appears so it doesn't follow the DOM order... you can't say that you do this and don't change the keyboard and reading order 17:19:59 q? 17:20:04 ack ri 17:20:05 rs: we put Bo Campbell in CSS to try to express this concern and feel he was ignored 17:20:37 rs: we are so far beyond using the DOM, that CSS needs to address the read order and keyboard issues 17:20:41 ack ro 17:21:26 rosen: we have CSS WG culture and flexbox, we didn't ignore Bo Campbell, we listened and spent significant time spent 17:21:29 q+ 17:21:52 rosen: if you don't think we have spent enough time, please bring it to my attention 17:22:18 Fwiw, I have personally spent hours chatting with Bo about these issues outside of meetings. Definitely not ignoring the issues. 17:22:50 rosen: CSS interacting and changing presentation - before: and after: defined to be accessible, if not implemented they are bugs 17:23:16 q? 17:23:22 q+ 17:23:25 rosen: to say CSS is creating inaccessible content by design is not true, we design it to be accessible 17:23:54 rosen: what is the right thing for the AT to follow? the DOM or visual order? 17:24:37 rosen: flexbox does not affect tabindex, then you have to ignore the order 17:25:10 rosen: if you are in the AT business and if you want to follow the order property, you can follow the visual order 17:25:52 rosen: so you can follow the DOM order until you run into a subtree ordered by the order property 17:26:13 q+ 17:26:14 fantasi: there is a bug, not an intentional thing 17:26:49 rosen: if you want to experiment different ways to tab, they could experiment with the property order 17:26:59 q? 17:27:08 q+ 17:28:27 IMHO it would be wrong for an AT to follow 'order' but not also figure out spatial relationships expressed in other ways (abspos, floats, etc) 17:28:44 cs: difference between the UX and web platforms - accessibility part of flexbox, the browser or AT or browser could change to use the order property - one of the things we trip over with CSS we have typically thought about 2 modes with mouse and with AT 17:29:11 cs: but a user can use any combination of keyboard, visual, speech... 17:30:18 cs: then the models break down, instagram uses the flexbox model and if you try tab on instagram in Chrome... it is very odd since you have to go through every thing then get to the header last... 17:30:25 +1 to Cyns comment "it's really confusing" and hoping that the CSS WG is also thinking in terms of cognition issues like that 17:30:37 +1 to Cyns. 17:30:38 q? 17:30:51 cs: user agents should be free to design an experience that works best for their user 17:30:59 q? 17:31:10 ack ri 17:31:14 ack cy 17:31:17 https://www.w3.org/TR/html-aam-1.0/ 17:31:23 https://www.w3.org/TR/svg-aam-1.0/ 17:31:30 rs: one core problem with CSS, AT when they interact the browser, goes through the APIs 17:31:33 https://www.w3.org/TR/core-aam-1.1/ 17:32:22 rs: they all say how the marked content maps to the APIs, but the AT's don't go through the DOM for the order, they rely on the user agents to map... 17:32:51 ? 17:32:54 q? 17:33:02 rs: if you go in some browsers, if you inject content, it never makes it in the API... CSS is the only core group that doesn't pay attention for this 17:33:06 q+ 17:33:40 rs: if you look at web components, you have a separate DOM to look at it, so you need a mapping spec and you don't have one 17:34:05 rs: I like flexbox, but you don't have a mapping spec 17:34:09 ack m 17:36:00 mk: want to emphasis that Cynthia said - that we have predictable order, people forget a blind person knows where things are in the screen, you can touch your screen, but if it doesn't match what I hear in the screen reader, it is very frustrating in the least 17:36:32 q- 17:36:33 mk: so the visual ordering needs to align with the reading order and visual keyboard order - I hope no one is arguing with that 17:37:08 mk: I hope we are in agreement the physical appearance in the screen is important to all users 17:37:25 mk: I hope we can focus on a solution 17:37:50 mk: injected content is a separate issue 17:37:52 q+ 17:38:06 As Rossen said, generated content is supposed to be exposed in the AT 17:38:11 That's an impl bug, not a spec bug 17:38:36 q+ 17:38:43 cyns has joined #apa 17:38:50 mk: where are the engineering arguments for not relying on the DOM order? 17:39:15 ack l 17:39:26 lw: as far as I know injected content is in browsers other than IE 17:39:41 mk: did you test it with something not related to naming 17:39:43 q+ to suggest changes to this part of the flexbox spec https://drafts.csswg.org/css-flexbox/#order-accessibility to clarify UA control over user experience 17:39:54 mk: if you check with real content, it isn't 17:41:02 lw: if we look at the potential disconnect between the visual order and keyboard, and read order we don't have any ARIA tools to fix the problem. Developers don't get it... 17:41:17 lw: may need to look to the browser to fix this 17:42:00 mk: when you are talking about flexbox in combination with DOM order, no different from others in DOM reordering 17:42:15 mk: why is unreasonable to do for authors 17:42:22 lw: expensive to do 17:42:27 q? 17:42:29 q? 17:42:55 ack f 17:42:56 mk: I don't think that is substantiated, I've asked lots of engineers, shouldn't we get them validated 17:43:15 q? 17:44:20 ack r 17:44:32 fantasai: there is a linear way to provide navigation, AT should be able to do it, the user agent should know right from left... and AT should provide a way to do it 17:44:32 ack ri 17:45:13 q+ 17:45:30 rs: first of all the AT needs to know when to do it. we have a issue that CSS does not say how things get mapped in the API. Firefox put it in the visual order 17:46:18 rs: the next thing is the keyboard navigation - if changing the visual order, then change the keyboard navigation as well, I provided an algorithm to do it 17:46:26 ack Rich 17:46:32 rs: a bigger issue is we don't have mapping for these things 17:47:29 q+ 17:47:31 rosen: AT's don't realize ordering from web platform only, then they do their own enriched experience 17:47:59 rosen: we should be allowing ATs to innovate on top of what we do 17:48:22 https://drafts.csswg.org/css-speech/#content 17:48:23 rosne: can find via DOM properties and AT APIs 17:48:43 s/rosne/Rossen/ 17:48:46 rosen: generated content should be in the accessibility tree 17:49:47 rosen: Rich pointed out each major module making their own explainers, a good idea, not in the speech module 17:50:07 add note: User agents, including browsers, AT, and extensions, may choose to add spacial navigation features based on the order attribute or other mechanisms that expose visual layout. 17:50:10 cs: I want to make a concrete proposal for a note 17:50:31 https://drafts.csswg.org/css-flexbox/#propdef-order 17:51:20 q? 17:51:24 ack cy 17:51:24 cyns, you wanted to suggest changes to this part of the flexbox spec https://drafts.csswg.org/css-flexbox/#order-accessibility to clarify UA control over user experience 17:51:26 ack fa 17:51:44 fantasai: I am happy to add the note if we replace the or - with an and 17:52:19 q+ to say I meant an inclusive or. and is fine 17:52:28 ack m 17:52:31 @MCK the W3C JavaScript best practices wiki states "To make sure your code is fast and doesn't slow down the browser, try to keep DOM access to a minimum..." https://www.w3.org/wiki/JavaScript_best_practices#Keep_DOM_access_to_a_minimum 17:52:36 fantasai: you should be making your best effort to handle the order property and absolute the positioning, to do order property and leave everything else as is doesn't make sense 17:52:48 q? 17:53:12 @fantasai: good point. I know image maps do that (sort of). 17:53:19 q+ 17:53:49 mk: I am under the impression that at least for screen readers, screen magnification our objective was to provide a determinate solution, provided by the user agent and not have to not can't 17:54:38 mk: I am not aware of any screen reader to read properties, the only use was to hack, fix problems, no AT vender wants to do that 17:54:47 ack cy 17:54:47 cyns, you wanted to say I meant an inclusive or. and is fine 17:54:50 cs: and is fine 17:54:57 ack ro 17:55:36 q+ 17:56:02 rosen: I agree with Matt, yet we want to be able to encourage AT vendors in everything, to expose in AT layer automation... and value everything they value in JAWS 17:56:44 rosen: they go to great lengths to achive the experience they have 17:57:49 mk: In my work with Glen and the developers at Freedom Scientific, they express do this is a hack and they want to get away from it. It is always to close gaps they couldn't close any other way 17:57:54 ack ri 17:58:16 q+ 17:58:45 rs: agree with Matt. If they want to expand to the product to add services or whatever that is fine. But when you have to put into hacks. 17:59:31 rs: But if NVDA does it a different way, then it frustrates developers, so we need the CSS working group do the same kind of thing for testing and predictability 17:59:43 q? 17:59:50 rs: we are trying to get edge more accessible by using APIs 18:00:04 js: what are our next steps? 18:00:27 rs: wants CSS to do what other WG are doing 18:00:30 q+ 18:00:38 ack ro 18:01:06 I'm happy to take an action item to add Cynthia's note to the spec today, fwiw! 18:01:38 rossen: want closure on the flexbox thing, the conversation is fantastic, but on flexbox - Cynthia's proposal 18:01:40 ack ri 18:01:49 rs: no that is not enough to address the issue 18:02:01 rs: and it doesn't address the keyboard order 18:02:14 cyns has joined #apa 18:02:37 q+ to say that the intent of my proposal was to address keyboard order 18:02:58 q? 18:03:33 rs: here is what happened at IBM, a product team used flexbox, so what they had to do was restructure their whole DOM. And they folks with disabilities get beat up because we haven't addressed it in the spec 18:03:37 q? 18:03:41 ack cy 18:03:41 cyns, you wanted to say that the intent of my proposal was to address keyboard order 18:03:42 cs: I think my proposal does 18:04:02 rs: I don't think it does... does that include keyboard order? 18:04:04 cs: yes 18:04:16 rs: need the API discussion 18:04:35 cs: I don't think we should block them 18:04:39 rs: I disagree 18:05:15 q+ to say that different users want different user expereinces here 18:05:34 mk: I didn't see anything in the note which specifies what a user agent will do, and I don't see anything that makes it clear what will be done - that is a big problem 18:05:47 js: sounds like we need a CSS mapping guide 18:06:45 js: to flow content appropriately, the accessibility aspect needs to be interoperable,... ran out of time, we aren't done 18:07:06 js: anyone need to comment before the call closes? 18:07:25 cs: I don't agree with Matt 18:07:37 js: COGA is telling that to 18:07:51 mk: looking for user agent behavior needs to be predictable 18:08:14 rrsagent, make minutes 18:08:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/24-apa-minutes.html fesch 18:08:38 js: since we meet at the same time, maybe we should take advantage of that 18:08:50 rrsagent, make minutes 18:08:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/24-apa-minutes.html fesch 18:12:23 jamesn has joined #apa 18:12:34 fesch has left #apa