See also: IRC log
<clown> agenda: this
<scribe> scribe: joanie
<clown> action-1569
<trackbot> action-1569 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Create a section that describes AAPI differences -- due 2016-02-23 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1569
JS: There's been some work going
back almost a year.
... Jason Kiss and Cynthia added stuff to the Core AAM
describing differences between the AAPIs.
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/issue-540/core-aam/core-aam.html#comparing-accessibility-apis
JS: I've incorporated their work.
See above URI.
... What he did... There was previously a note about
ATK/AT-SPI. Jason took this out of the note.
... Jason also added a section describing how different AAPIs
handle names and descriptions.
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#comparing-accessibility-apis
JS: Correction, the URI
immediately above is the correct one.
... Cynthia's text follows next.
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#intro_aapi
JS: Some of Cynthia's text I put
up higher in the section.
... If you go to the intro (URI above), there is a numbered
list which is also Cynthia's text.
... It provides a high-level explanation of what goes into an
Accessibility API.
CS: This looks ok to me, though
my button example (in 1.3.2) could use some work.
... Please delete the sentence with the example. I'll provide
another.
<scribe> ACTION: Cynthia to provide a new example for the Accessibility API explanatory text. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/02/23-aapi-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2032 - Provide a new example for the accessibility api explanatory text. [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2016-03-01].
<clown> action-2032
<trackbot> action-2032 -- Cynthia Shelly to Provide a new example for the accessibility api explanatory text. -- due 2016-03-01 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2032
JS: I'll wait for Jason to get
back to me. I'll ping him again.
... Other comments?
CS: I'm happy to be making progress on this one. :)
Group agrees
<clown> action-1593
<trackbot> action-1593 -- Cynthia Shelly to Compare implementations of AAPI managed states and look for gaps. -- due 2016-02-23 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1593
JS: This is another AAPI related one.
CS: I've not yet had time to do this one. Leave it overdue.
<clown> action-1531?
<trackbot> action-1531 -- David Bolter to Bolter to investigate ia2 mapping of role="text" -- due 2014-11-18 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1531
JS: This should be a quick
one.
... I finally got around to changing the IA2 mapping for
role="text".
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-text
JS: URI is above.
... You'll see it says ROLE_SYSTEM_STATICTEXT now.
... Any other changes needed?
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-text
JD: My platform is fine.
CS: It's fine for mine, although my concerns about this role remain.
RS: I did get Steve to limit the
usage of role="text".
... But James N. has concerns about that.
CS: I have a number of changes to propose. How would you like them?
JS: I would prefer single issues over a single large one. And tracker over github.
CS: I can do issues, but I'm trying to reduce overhead.
JS: Ok, you could do one big pull request.
CS: Since they are about UIA, I don't anticipate concerns or discussions regarding my proposed changes.
<clown> action-1691
<trackbot> action-1691 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Propose UIA mapping for aria-errormessage. -- due 2015-12-31 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1691
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ariaErrorMessage
JS: All I changed here is (he
reads previous and new text)
... This is for UIA.
RS: Do we need a role="error" any more?
JS: Good question. When I saw the action, it had role="error" in it.
RS: You could handle this in the underlying platform.
CS: It seems analogous to label.
RS: As long as it only takes a single ID, in the underlying platform you could have a platform role.
CS: One reason I like it in the markup is for HTML readability.
RS: I do think we have to address this on the other platforms.
CS: I think I would point this to an element with a role="alertdialog".
JD: I don't think it's necessarily a dialog.
CS: Agreed, but this is one
pattern that seems sane and a good WCAG technique.
... Because an error dialog is typical.
... I think connecting this to live regions also makes
sense.
JS: Doesn't the appearance of an alertdialog trigger a notification?
JD: On my platform it's supposed to.
JS: Do I have anything in the
Core AAM regarding events for aria-errormessage?
... I don't. Although it's supposed to be used with
aria-invalid.
... And aria-invalid incurs a state change.
... So I don't think we need an issue.
RS: Yes, it incurs a state
change.
... But aria-invalid will be on the source.
JS: We already have in the spec
that if the error message is pertinent, then aria-invalid
should be set to true.
... And that should result in a notification.
RS: Unless it's always been there.
JS: We have this already in the mapping spec to fire notifications in ATK and IA2, but not for UIA.
RS: But they must have one.
JS: When a node is created... No. When it's removed, yes.
RS: I think they should probably fix that.
JS: Do we need an AAPI for that for aria-errormessage?
<clown> Issue: is there a need for an AAPI event for aria-errormessage
<trackbot> Created ISSUE-1013 - Is there a need for an aapi event for aria-errormessage. Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1013/edit>.
RS: Creating events are more expensive....
JS: I'll raise the issue and we can discuss it.
BG: I don't understand why we're taking something that's accessible and creating something that's new that has no mappings and is not accessible.
RS: The original issue was the
need to expand comboboxes to more popup types than
listboxes.
... Matt wanted to add things like grid and tree and
dialog.
... If you have a popup.... Freedom Scientific said it better
be modal.
... Because when you bring up a dialog box, you can be Tabbing
through a dialog box and then be in the middle of nowhere.
BG: I agree. I'm opposed to adding dialog.
RS: Removing dialog would make
things easier.
... But you still have other popups.
... Are they going to be modal or not?
... Example, grids are rather large.
... What do you want/expect when you press Tab at the end of a
grid?
... Do we need to specify a modal property?
... For a tree widget, it's pretty straightforward I
think.
... But a grid....
... Matt is a power user. But not all users are. And what
happens if you exit the grid without expecting that?
... Then you don't know where you are.
BG: I understand the
problem.
... But ... Basically when you're dealing with screen readers,
the interaction is pretty granular.
... You're dealing with the object that has focus.
... But in a combo box, you're only interacting with the
combobox or not.
... The problem with dialog is that once you're in a dialog you
are no longer in the combobox.
... That's fine if they want to create it like that.
... You don't need to put that in the spec, however.
... I have the same problem with grid and tree.
... Years ago, people started making comboboxes editable
because it made sense and was easy.
... But if we create a brand new structure that has to be
remapped, it's going to cause interoperability issues.
... And make my life quite difficult.
RS: I understand what Matt is
trying to do, but...
... The difference between 1.0 and 1.1 is the relationship
changed from controls to owns.
... What I would like to be able to do is say: If you are going
to make such a UI object, it needs to have a popup.
... aria-haspopup would make it possible to indicate this is a
different type of interaction.
... But when you get to the target, you have to know what the
popup means.
... Is it really closing the combobox or not?
... I think it would be better to make it modal so that people
don't get lost.
... I'm worried about having a much more complex window being
brought up.
... And people getting very confused.
... This is why I've been pushing modal.
BG: Our clients have many
different combobox implementations.
... And usually the edit field is the only component that has
focus.
... And aria-activedescendant to point to the selected item,
e.g. in the grid.
... And this works.
... So the changes proposed strike me as more confusing.
... And also strike me as an APG thing rather than a spec
thing.
RS: There are a lot of people
with actions outstanding.
... And we need to get ARIA 1.1 done.
... And I don't want to consume all of our time with one
role.
<clown> aciton-1541
<clown> action-1541
<trackbot> action-1541 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Investigate and propose mappings for aria-modal property for axapi. -- due 2016-02-08 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1541
JS: I thought I had this nailed
down.
... This is putting into the mapping spec AX API's mapping for
aria-modal.
<clown> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=138566
JS: There's a fixed bug in WebKit
(about URI).
... But I cannot find a property that they set.
... I was wondering if Joanie could have a look.
JD: I'll look.
... My guess is that there is already an isModal() being called
in the existing Mac platform code within WebKit.
... And because of that, there was not a need to include
anything looking like a new mapping in the patch associated
with that bug.
... But I can look.
(Group looks using Accessibility Inspector in OS X)
JS: I'll ping James Craig and ask him what I should put in the table for AX API for aria-modal.
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.144 of Date: 2015/11/17 08:39:34 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/platform/platforms/ Succeeded: s/ARIA/ARIA 1.1/ Found embedded ScribeOptions: -final *** RESTARTING DUE TO EMBEDDED OPTIONS *** Found Scribe: joanie Inferring ScribeNick: joanie Default Present: Joanmarie_Diggs, Bryan_Garaventa, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Cynthia_Shelly, Rich_Schwerdtfeger Present: Joanmarie_Diggs Bryan_Garaventa Joseph_Scheuhammer Cynthia_Shelly Rich_Schwerdtfeger Found Date: 23 Feb 2016 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2016/02/23-aapi-minutes.html People with action items: cynthia WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]