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19:41:26 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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19:41:28 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
19:41:28 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
19:41:29 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
19:41:29 <trackbot> Date: 23 February 2016
19:41:53 <clown> chair: Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:42:02 <clown> agenda?
19:42:06 <clown> agenda: this
19:42:16 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1569/1585/ISSUE-540 (Joseph) Add to section on AAPI differences highlighting the features of UIA
19:42:26 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1593 (Cynthia) Compare implementations of AAPI managed states and look for gaps.
19:42:47 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1531 (All) IA2 mapping of role="text" -- using ROLE_SYSTEM_STATICTEXT in editor's draft.
19:42:54 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1691/ISSUE-1010 (Joseph) UIA mapping for aria-errormessage and role="error".
19:43:04 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1541 (Joseph) AXAPI mapping for aria-modal property.
19:43:10 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1668 (Rich/Alex) Add IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK for IA2.
19:43:16 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1681 (Joseph) Editorial change clarifying inclusions rules in 5.1.2
19:43:26 <clown> agenda+ Triage: https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/products/23 (start: ACTION-1686)
19:44:01 <clown> agenda+ Triage bugzllas: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=Core%20AAM&product=ARIA , https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=AccName%20AAM&product=ARIA , https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/26
19:44:12 <clown> agenda+ be done
19:45:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/23-aapi-minutes.html clown
19:49:43 <Rich> Rich has joined #aapi
20:01:18 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
20:01:55 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aapi
20:02:20 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
20:02:53 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
20:05:14 <joanie> scribe: joanie
20:08:17 <cyns> cyns has joined #aapi
20:10:49 <joanie> present+ Cynthia_Shelly
20:11:12 <joanie> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
20:12:57 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 1
20:12:57 <Zakim> agendum 1. "ACTION-1569/1585/ISSUE-540 (Joseph) Add to section on AAPI differences highlighting the features of UIA" taken up [from clown]
20:13:07 <clown> action-1569
20:13:07 <trackbot> action-1569 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Create a section that describes AAPI differences -- due 2016-02-23 -- PENDINGREVIEW
20:13:07 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1569
20:13:13 <joanie> JS: There's been some work going back almost a year.
20:13:31 <joanie> JS: Jason Kiss and Cynthia added stuff to the Core AAM describing differences between the AAPIs.
20:13:39 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/issue-540/core-aam/core-aam.html#comparing-accessibility-apis
20:13:44 <joanie> JS: I've incorporated their work. See above URI.
20:14:08 <joanie> JS: What he did... There was previously a note about ATK/AT-SPI. Jason took this out of the note.
20:14:32 <joanie> JS: Jason also added a section describing how different AAPIs handle names and descriptions.
20:14:35 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#comparing-accessibility-apis
20:14:45 <joanie> JS: Correction, the URI immediately above is the correct one.
20:14:57 <joanie> JS: Cynthia's text follows next.
20:15:20 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#intro_aapi
20:15:24 <joanie> JS: Some of Cynthia's text I put up higher in the section.
20:15:40 <joanie> JS: If you go to the intro (URI above), there is a numbered list which is also Cynthia's text.
20:16:07 <joanie> JS: It provides a high-level explanation of what goes into an Accessibility API.
20:16:35 <joanie> CS: This looks ok to me, though my button example (in 1.3.2) could use some work.
20:16:58 <joanie> CS: Please delete the sentence with the example. I'll provide another.
20:17:32 <joanie> action: Cynthia to provide a new example for the Accessibility API explanatory text.
20:17:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2032 - Provide a new example for the accessibility api explanatory text. [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2016-03-01].
20:17:45 <clown> action-2032
20:17:45 <trackbot> action-2032 -- Cynthia Shelly to Provide a new example for the accessibility api explanatory text. -- due 2016-03-01 -- OPEN
20:17:45 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2032
20:18:42 <joanie> JS: I'll wait for Jason to get back to me. I'll ping him again.
20:18:45 <joanie> JS: Other comments?
20:18:54 <joanie> CS: I'm happy to be making progress on this one. :)
20:19:09 <joanie> Group agrees
20:19:19 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:19:19 <Zakim> agendum 2. "ACTION-1593 (Cynthia) Compare implementations of AAPI managed states and look for gaps." taken up [from clown]
20:19:26 <clown> action-1593
20:19:26 <trackbot> action-1593 -- Cynthia Shelly to Compare implementations of AAPI managed states and look for gaps. -- due 2016-02-23 -- OPEN
20:19:26 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1593
20:19:39 <joanie> JS: This is another AAPI related one.
20:20:00 <joanie> CS: I've not yet had time to do this one. Leave it overdue.
20:20:07 <joanie> Zakim, close item 2
20:20:07 <Zakim> agendum 2, ACTION-1593 (Cynthia) Compare implementations of AAPI managed states and look for gaps., closed
20:20:09 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
20:20:09 <Zakim> 3. ACTION-1531 (All) IA2 mapping of role="text" -- using ROLE_SYSTEM_STATICTEXT in editor's draft. [from clown]
20:20:11 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:20:11 <Zakim> agendum 3. "ACTION-1531 (All) IA2 mapping of role="text" -- using ROLE_SYSTEM_STATICTEXT in editor's draft." taken up [from clown]
20:20:17 <clown> action-1531?
20:20:17 <trackbot> action-1531 -- David Bolter to Bolter to investigate ia2 mapping of role="text" -- due 2014-11-18 -- PENDINGREVIEW
20:20:17 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1531
20:20:19 <joanie> JS: This should be a quick one.
20:20:32 <joanie> JS: I finally got around to changing the IA2 mapping for role="text".
20:20:38 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-text
20:20:39 <joanie> JS: URI is above.
20:21:07 <joanie> JS: You'll see it says ROLE_SYSTEM_STATICTEXT now.
20:21:14 <cyns_> cyns_ has joined #aapi
20:21:14 <joanie> JS: Any other changes needed?
20:21:19 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-text
20:21:36 <joanie> JD: My platform is fine.
20:22:06 <joanie> CS: It's fine for mine, although my concerns about this role remain.
20:22:19 <joanie> RS: I did get Steve to limit the usage of role="text".
20:22:30 <joanie> RS: But James N. has concerns about that.
20:22:51 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:22:51 <Zakim> agendum 4. "ACTION-1691/ISSUE-1010 (Joseph) UIA mapping for aria-errormessage and role="error"." taken up [from clown]
20:23:03 <joanie> Zakim, previous item
20:23:03 <Zakim> I don't understand 'previous item', joanie
20:23:51 <joanie> Topic: Providing feedback and changes on Core AAM mappings
20:24:02 <joanie> CS: I have a number of changes to propose. How would you like them?
20:24:21 <joanie> JS: I would prefer single issues over a single large one. And tracker over github.
20:24:36 <joanie> CS: I can do issues, but I'm trying to reduce overhead.
20:24:48 <joanie> JS: Ok, you could do one big pull request.
20:25:20 <joanie> CS: Since they are about UIA, I don't anticipate concerns or discussions regarding my proposed changes.
20:25:24 <clown> action-1691
20:25:24 <trackbot> action-1691 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Propose UIA mapping for aria-errormessage. -- due 2015-12-31 -- PENDINGREVIEW
20:25:24 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1691
20:25:42 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 4
20:25:42 <Zakim> agendum 4. "ACTION-1691/ISSUE-1010 (Joseph) UIA mapping for aria-errormessage and role="error"." taken up [from clown]
20:25:48 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ariaErrorMessage
20:26:08 <joanie> JS: All I changed here is (he reads previous and new text)
20:26:18 <joanie> JS: This is for UIA.
20:26:25 <joanie> RS: Do we need a role="error" any more?
20:26:38 <joanie> JS: Good question. When I saw the action, it had role="error" in it.
20:26:54 <joanie> RS: You could handle this in the underlying platform.
20:27:04 <joanie> CS: It seems analogous to label.
20:27:30 <joanie> RS: As long as it only takes a single ID, in the underlying platform you could have a platform role.
20:27:42 <joanie> CS: One reason I like it in the markup is for HTML readability.
20:27:52 <joanie> RS: I do think we have to address this on the other platform.
20:27:59 <joanie> s/platform/platforms/
20:28:28 <joanie> CS: I think I would point this to an element with a role="alertdialog".
20:29:06 <joanie> JD: I don't think it's necessarily a dialog.
20:29:21 <joanie> CS: Agreed, but this is one pattern that seems sane and a good WCAG technique.
20:29:33 <joanie> CS: Because an error dialog is typical.
20:30:04 <joanie> CS: I think connecting this to live regions also makes sense.
20:30:20 <joanie> JS: Doesn't the appearance of an alertdialog trigger a notification?
20:30:27 <joanie> JD: On my platform it's supposed to.
20:31:02 <joanie> JS: Do I have anything in the Core AAM regarding events for aria-errormessage?
20:31:30 <joanie> JS: I don't. Although it's supposed to be used with aria-invalid.
20:31:39 <joanie> JS: And aria-invalid incurs a state change.
20:31:50 <joanie> JS: So I don't think we need an issue.
20:32:03 <joanie> RS: Yes, it incurs a state change.
20:32:11 <joanie> RS: But aria-invalid will be on the source.
20:32:37 <joanie> JS: We already have in the spec that if the error message is pertinent, then aria-invalid should be set to true.
20:32:44 <joanie> JS: And that should result in a notification.
20:32:50 <joanie> RS: Unless it's always been there.
20:33:29 <joanie> JS: We have this already in the mapping spec to fire notifications in ATK and IA2, but not for UIA.
20:33:34 <joanie> RS: But they must have one.
20:33:52 <joanie> JS: When a node is created... No. When it's removed, yes.
20:33:58 <joanie> RS: I think they should probably fix that.
20:34:12 <joanie> JS: Do we need an AAPI for that for aria-errormessage?
20:34:16 <clown> Issue:  is there a need for an AAPI event for aria-errormessage
20:34:16 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-1013 - Is there a need for an aapi event for aria-errormessage.  Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1013/edit>.
20:34:20 <joanie> RS: Creating events are more expensive....
20:34:29 <joanie> JS: I'll raise the issue and we can discuss it.
20:35:29 <joanie> Topic: Comboboxes
20:36:07 <joanie> BG: I don't understand why we're taking something that's accessible and creating something that's new that has no mappings and is not accessible.
20:36:25 <joanie> RS: The original issue was the need to expand comboboxes to more popup types than listboxes.
20:36:39 <joanie> RS: Matt wanted to add things like grid and tree and dialog.
20:36:53 <joanie> RS: If you have a popup.... Freedom Scientific said it better be modal.
20:37:15 <joanie> RS: Because when you bring up a dialog box, you can be Tabbing through a dialog box and then be in the middle of nowhere.
20:37:25 <joanie> BG: I agree. I'm opposed to adding dialog.
20:37:33 <joanie> RS: Removing dialog would make things easier.
20:37:39 <joanie> RS: But you still have other popups.
20:37:45 <joanie> RS: Are they going to be modal or not?
20:37:51 <joanie> RS: Example, grids are rather large.
20:38:01 <joanie> RS: What do you want/expect when you press Tab at the end of a grid?
20:38:10 <joanie> RS: Do we need to specify a modal property?
20:38:23 <joanie> RS: For a tree widget, it's pretty straightforward I think.
20:38:30 <joanie> RS: But a grid....
20:38:54 <joanie> RS: Matt is a power user. But not all users are. And what happens if you exit the grid without expecting that?
20:39:03 <joanie> RS: Then you don't know where you are.
20:39:08 <joanie> BG: I understand the problem.
20:39:27 <joanie> BG: But ... Basically when you're dealing with screen readers, the interaction is pretty granular.
20:39:36 <joanie> BG: You're dealing with the object that has focus.
20:39:53 <joanie> BG: But in a combo box, you're only interacting with the combobox or not.
20:40:12 <joanie> BG: The problem with dialog is that once you're in a dialog you are no longer in the combobox.
20:40:19 <joanie> BG: That's fine if they want to create it like that.
20:40:27 <joanie> BG: You don't need to put that in the spec, however.
20:40:38 <joanie> BG: I have the same problem with grid and tree.
20:41:01 <joanie> BG: Years ago, people started making comboboxes editable because it made sense and was easy.
20:41:21 <joanie> BG: But if we create a brand new structure that has to be remapped, it's going to cause interoperability issues.
20:41:30 <joanie> BG: And make my life quite difficult.
20:41:43 <joanie> RS: I understand what Matt is trying to do, but...
20:42:05 <joanie> RS: The difference between 1.0 and 1.1 is the relationship changed from controls to owns.
20:42:35 <joanie> RS: What I would like to be able to do is say: If you are going to make such a UI object, it needs to have a popup.
20:42:59 <joanie> RS: aria-haspopup would make it possible to indicate this is a different type of interaction.
20:43:26 <joanie> RS: But when you get to the target, you have to know what the popup means.
20:43:33 <joanie> RS: Is it really closing the combobox or not?
20:43:46 <joanie> RS: I think it would be better to make it modal so that people don't get lost.
20:44:04 <joanie> RS: I'm worried about having a much more complex window being brought up.
20:44:10 <joanie> RS: And people getting very confused.
20:44:18 <joanie> RS: This is why I've been pushing modal.
20:44:28 <joanie> BG: Our clients have many different combobox implementations.
20:44:44 <joanie> BG: And usually the edit field is the only component that has focus.
20:45:10 <joanie> BG: And aria-activedescendant to point to the selected item, e.g. in the grid.
20:45:24 <joanie> BG: And this works.
20:45:43 <joanie> BG: So the changes proposed strike me as more confusing.
20:45:57 <joanie> BG: And also strike me as an APG thing rather than a spec thing.
20:46:06 <joanie> RS: There are a lot of people with actions outstanding.
20:46:13 <joanie> RS: And we need to get ARIA done.
20:46:19 <joanie> s/ARIA/ARIA 1.1/
20:46:30 <joanie> RS: And I don't want to consume all of our time with one role.
20:46:38 <joanie> Zakim, next item.
20:46:38 <Zakim> agendum 5. "ACTION-1541 (Joseph) AXAPI mapping for aria-modal property." taken up [from clown]
20:46:42 <clown> aciton-1541
20:46:46 <clown> action-1541
20:46:46 <trackbot> action-1541 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Investigate and propose mappings for aria-modal property for axapi. -- due 2016-02-08 -- OPEN
20:46:46 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1541
20:46:55 <joanie> JS: I thought I had this nailed down.
20:47:09 <joanie> JS: This is putting into the mapping spec AX API's mapping for aria-modal.
20:47:15 <clown> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=138566
20:47:24 <joanie> JS: There's a fixed bug in WebKit (about URI).
20:47:31 <joanie> JS: But I cannot find a property that they set.
20:47:41 <joanie> JS: I was wondering if Joanie could have a look.
20:47:55 <joanie> JD: I'll look.
20:52:08 <joanie> JD: My guess is that there is already an isModal() being called in the existing Mac platform code within WebKit.
20:52:33 <joanie> JD: And because of that, there was not a need to include anything looking like a new mapping in the patch associated with that bug.
20:52:37 <joanie> JD: But I can look.
20:52:56 <joanie> (Group looks using Accessibility Inspector in OS X)
20:59:42 <joanie> JS: I'll ping James Craig and ask him what I should put in the table for AX API for aria-modal.
21:01:16 <joanie> agenda?
21:02:31 <joanie> Zakim, part
21:02:31 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Joanmarie_Diggs, Bryan_Garaventa, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Cynthia_Shelly, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
21:02:31 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
21:02:41 <joanie> scribeOptions: -final
21:02:44 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop