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17:31:08 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/02/18-aria-irc
17:31:10 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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17:31:12 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
17:31:12 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
17:31:13 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
17:31:13 <trackbot> Date: 18 February 2016
17:31:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
17:31:21 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
17:31:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C ARIA Working Group
17:31:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
17:31:58 <tzviya> present+ Tzviya
17:32:38 <mck> mck has joined #aria
17:32:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Feb/0293.html
17:33:34 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
17:34:02 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
17:34:23 <fesch> present+ fesch
17:35:12 <clown> clown has joined #aria
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17:36:26 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:36:39 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
17:37:35 <clown> scribenick: clown
17:38:41 <JF> JF has joined #aria
17:38:52 <clown> TOPIC:  CfCs
17:39:11 <clown> RS:  the proposed for action 1672 had gone out after resolution.
17:39:14 <clown> RS:  it has passed.
17:39:37 <clown> RS:  all the deprecated text for aria-grabbed and aria-dropeffect has gone through.
17:39:46 <clown> JD:  I have put in the new text.
17:40:02 <clown> TOPIC:  Combobox ACTION-1490
17:40:31 <clown> MK:  First, let's limit the scope to the structure and relationships within the combobox.
17:40:42 <clown> MK:  Nothing about focus nor active descendant.
17:40:56 <mck> <input role=combobox type=text aria-owns=list /> <ul role=listbox id=list> </ul>
17:41:07 <clown> MK:  The aria 1.0 structure is as above.
17:41:39 <clown> RS:  There was a second one where the combobox was a container of a textbox and a listbox.
17:41:44 <clown> MK:  Let's take that up later.
17:41:54 <clown> MK: The first form have a number of issues.
17:42:11 <clown> MK:  First, as Bryan has raised regarding value.
17:42:19 <mck> <div role=combobox aria-owns=list contenteditable> </div> <ul role=listbox id=list> </ul>
17:42:33 <clown> MK: If you use an input type text, you get the value for free.
17:43:00 <clown> MK:  If you use the second form, there is no value.
17:43:06 <MichielBijl> regrets+ MichielBijl
17:43:18 <clown> q+ to point out the FF still might give a value to the comboxo in the second form.
17:43:51 <clown> MK:  From a screen read perspective, both of these end up with one widget, even though on screen there are two things (textbox, listbox)
17:44:00 <mgylling> present+ Markus_Gylling
17:44:07 <cyns> q+ to say that I think it's undefined whether the value is still available in the first example, and it is at least not interoperably implemented
17:44:15 <clown> MK:  The SR can't see it as two items.
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17:44:40 <clown> MK: So, two problems;  Value and composite nature.
17:44:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:44:47 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
17:45:26 <mck> <div role=combobox> <span role=textbox> </span> <ul role = listbox> </ul> </div>
17:45:52 <clown> MK:  One more example:  screen reader developers like this because it's how native combobox work.  (Pastes in example).
17:46:09 <clown> MK: Notice in this pattern, there is no need for aria-owns.
17:46:18 <mck> <div role=combobox aria-owns=list> <span role=textbox> </span> </div> <ul id=list role = listbox> </ul>
17:46:42 <clown> MK: And, you could always make it like this with aria-owns (Pastes in another example).
17:47:34 <clown> MK:  First, then, focussing on this structure:  is there consensus that the spec should reflect the latter two examples?
17:47:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
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17:50:17 <clown> JS:  I believe FF puts in a value for the combobox even in the case not using a text input field.
17:50:22 <clown> JS:  But, I'd have to check.
17:50:35 <clown> MK: Even with contentediable
17:52:24 <clown> JS:  Points out that the two composite examples were out there in early versions of the spec.
17:52:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:52:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack clown
17:52:41 <Zakim> clown, you wanted to point out the FF still might give a value to the comboxo in the second form.
17:52:46 <clown> MK:  Well, we still want to allow for the input version, for legacy apps.
17:53:21 <clown> CS:  We have a native combobox — two kinds.
17:53:32 <clown> CS:  Win32 that looks like the container example.
17:53:41 <clown> CS:  Then there is XAML
17:54:08 <clown> CS:  The XAML combobox are an edit control with a controllerFor relationship to a list.
17:54:22 <clown> MK:  It sounds like you still have two accessibles.
17:54:25 <clown> CS:  We do.
17:54:45 <clown> MK: That particular structure is in ARIA and the web world.
17:54:54 <clown> MK:  But the screen reader developers are rejecting.
17:55:17 <clown> MK:  The engjineers are aware of the XAML structure, but do not like it.
17:55:25 <clown> CS:  Well, narrator supports it.
17:55:52 <clown> MK:  I don't see a mapping issue if people use the second form.
17:56:02 <clown> CS:  We might miss the controlling relationship.
17:56:18 <clown> MK:  But you could do it based on the mark up and infer the controlling relationship.
17:56:37 <clown> CS:  We might be able to do that, I would hold that in reserve since we might find bugs.
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17:57:11 <jongund> present+ jongund
17:57:13 <clown> MK: But, we don't want authors to be responsible for crafting the markup exactly, but leave it to the browser to map appropriately.
17:57:25 <clown> CS:  I think we might be about to do that, but let me check.
17:57:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:57:43 <mck> q?
17:57:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:57:48 <clown> CS:  I think I can do it, but I must talk to devs first.
17:57:48 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack cyns
17:57:48 <Zakim> cyns, you wanted to say that I think it's undefined whether the value is still available in the first example, and it is at least not interoperably implemented
17:58:21 <clown> MK:  The next part is to talk about focus management.  But we only have 3 minutes.
17:58:41 <clown> MK: I would like to modify ACTION-1490 branch with the above discussion in mind.
17:58:41 <cyns> I'm going to drop off now
17:58:57 <clown> RS:  We will continue this next week then.
17:59:38 <mck> scribe: mck
18:00:05 <mck> TOPIC: Test harness
18:00:16 <mck> RS: I started on this
18:00:38 <mck> rs: we need to tell people where exit criteria are documented
18:00:49 <mck> jf needs it among others
18:00:58 <mck> mc: i can recreate the url. will take a min
18:01:28 <MichaelC> -> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/CR-pub/aria/aria.html#sotd Draft ARIA 1.1 exit criteria
18:01:39 <JF> Q+ to ask to be reminded of the new mailing list for the test-harness activities
18:01:43 <mck> rs: side note, joanie, i posted comments on link type
18:02:07 <mck> jf: new e-mail for test effort. what is that?
18:02:33 <JF> ack JF
18:02:33 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to ask to be reminded of the new mailing list for the test-harness activities
18:02:36 <MichaelC> -> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/communication List of email lists
18:02:57 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria-test/
18:03:14 <mck> mc: on the aria wg home, there is a communications section that includes mailing lists where it is listed.
18:03:22 <clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/
18:03:28 <MichaelC> -> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/ ARIA Test Harness
18:03:46 <mck> rs: do we want to test properties on every role for the new attribs
18:03:57 <mck> mc: no, it is not feasible for every combination
18:04:13 <mck> mc: some props are for only one role
18:04:24 <mck> mc: globals we only test on a sample subset
18:05:08 <mck> jf: getting 404 for the list
18:05:29 <clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/specs?spec_id=5
18:05:34 <JF> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/specs?spec_id=3
18:05:43 <mck> mc: related to test harness not being complete.
18:06:12 <mck> mc: commenting out those links for now
18:07:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/CR-pub/aria/aria.html#sotd
18:07:17 <clown> Look for "Exit Criteria"
18:07:37 <mck> RS: JF look at this link. this is all the stuff needs test cases
18:08:01 <mck> question: are the people who work on JF's india team, do they understand ax apis?
18:08:14 <mck> jf: they have a working command of that
18:08:42 <mck> rs: could they look at the aria spec and write a test ssample and that look at the maaping specs to write a test for each platform.
18:08:49 <mck> jf: I think yes
18:08:59 <fesch> q+
18:09:07 <mck> jf: might be good to get people together on a call and work through an example
18:09:32 <mck> rs: there are already examples in there. I'd have they try to write a couple.
18:09:45 <clown> Test cases for ARIA 1.0:  https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases?testsuite_id=1
18:10:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases?testsuite_id=4
18:10:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases/edit?testsuite_id=4&testcase_id=75
18:10:37 <mck> rs: providing an example
18:10:52 <mck> rs: show expected results for each platform
18:11:33 <mck> this needs to be done for each of the exit criteria for each of the new features
18:11:41 <mck> jg: we can do some
18:11:54 <mck> jg: is name description and grouping part of it?
18:11:58 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/
18:12:17 <mck> rs: there are test cases needed for accname
18:12:42 <mck> rs: this is only what changed, not everything.
18:12:48 <mck> probably need another coordination call
18:13:02 <mck> would also like Joseph, the King of AccName!
18:13:41 <mck> Joseph: there are no substantial changes to accname
18:13:51 <mck> we did remove express mapping
18:13:56 <mck> rs: need them for UIA
18:14:10 <mck> Joseph: we might have them but didn't use them before.
18:14:17 <mck> rs: when is a good time for a call?
18:14:40 <mck> jf: 2 people in india, early morning is best. before 9:30 austin.
18:14:49 <mck> rs: make a doodle pole?
18:14:52 <JF> +1 to a Doodle poll
18:14:59 <mck> mc: that's fine
18:15:36 <mck> Fred: svg aam is using a wiki page for testable statements and then use a script to load into db
18:15:58 <mck> rs: we can look at that.
18:16:15 <mck> need names from people on india team.
18:16:23 <mck> compiling list of names to pole
18:16:42 <MichielBijl> regrets- MichielBijl
18:16:48 <MichielBijl> present+ MichielBijl
18:16:53 <mck> jf: My team is going to need some management direction.
18:17:06 <fesch> here are the SVG AAM test assertions https://www.w3.org/wiki/SVG_Accessibility/Testing/Test_Assertions
18:17:10 <mck> I can help with that. But, we should have a primary coordinator.
18:17:25 <mck> RS: not sure I have the cycles to do it personally.
18:17:52 <mck> jf: I can try and help. these are new people. Unrealistic to expect them to be complete self starters.
18:18:51 <mck> TOPIC: aria-details
18:18:53 <clown> action-2018
18:18:53 <trackbot> action-2018 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Modify issue1009 text to ensure that aria-details does not aria-details does not participate in accessible name computation -- due 2016-02-18 -- OPEN
18:18:53 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2018
18:18:58 <mck> action-2018?
18:18:58 <trackbot> action-2018 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Modify issue1009 text to ensure that aria-details does not aria-details does not participate in accessible name computation -- due 2016-02-18 -- OPEN
18:18:58 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2018
18:19:11 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/issue1009/aria/aria.html#aria-details
18:19:25 <mck> This proposal also removes describedat
18:19:46 <mck> rs: still have to deal with visibility in dpub
18:20:16 <mck> joseph: there is a note about single element referencing. that is not in the text.
18:20:28 <mck> joseph: wording in 2nd paragraph.
18:20:34 <mck> rs: easy fix
18:21:10 <tzviya> q+
18:21:10 <mck> rs: Is this acceptable proposal for CFC?
18:21:14 <clown> +1
18:21:21 <joanie> +1
18:21:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:21:29 <mck> q?
18:21:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack fesch
18:21:34 <fesch> ack
18:22:48 <mck> not raised with dpub yet.
18:23:46 <mck> rs: we have a week, if there are only minor comments, we wouldn't need another cfc.
18:24:01 <mck> marcus: i'm optomistic
18:24:37 <mck> RESOLUTION: Accept aria-details proposal with editorial change to refer to a single element.
18:25:32 <mck> TOPIC: Link type proposal
18:25:33 <clown> action-2006
18:25:33 <trackbot> action-2006 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Draft proposal for new aria-linktype attribute for group review -- due 2016-01-27 -- OPEN
18:25:33 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2006
18:25:36 <mck> action-2006?
18:25:36 <trackbot> action-2006 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Draft proposal for new aria-linktype attribute for group review -- due 2016-01-27 -- OPEN
18:25:36 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2006
18:26:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action-2006/aria/aria.html#aria-linktype
18:26:13 <mck> Joanie: no longer excited about this idea. just kept ruling all the use cases as not necessary.
18:26:26 <tzviya> q+
18:26:31 <mck> Joanie: not sure that this anything to with aria-details
18:27:00 <mck> rrsagent, make minutes
18:27:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/18-aria-minutes.html mck
18:27:27 <mck> Joanie reads spec text.
18:28:07 <tzviya> q-
18:29:16 <mck> Joanie: I made up some enumerated type values
18:29:37 <mck> rs: what broght this up is in dpub
18:29:50 <mck> they have new roles that are all forms of links
18:30:44 <mck> dpub was adding roles. this is an alternative to more roles. it is like a subrole.
18:30:46 <mgylling> q+
18:31:16 <mck> Joanie: I am not sure we need this in core. I am not opposed to it. But do not necessarily see the value outside DPUB
18:31:51 <mck> RS: I think there could be cases outside DPUB, like in the case of details.
18:31:56 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:32:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack mgylling
18:32:19 <mck> Marcus: Joanie, why are not not hinking is generally useful?
18:33:20 <mck> Joanie: I use the platform API to parse the link and figure out things like samepage and mailto or file of size.
18:33:45 <mck> Joanie: this new attribute doesn't save any work as a screen reader dev. I can still do these things without it.
18:34:07 <mck> Marcus: Is this generally useful to screen reader users?
18:34:19 <mck> Joanie: without this feature, I still provide all this information.
18:34:30 <mck> rs: how do you do it for details or footnote?
18:34:35 <tzviya> q+
18:34:40 <mck> Joanie: I do not handle those cases.
18:34:51 <mck> this could be good for that.
18:35:08 <mck> rs: I think having it in the main spec is valuable. Links are everywhere.
18:35:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:35:35 <mck> Tzviya: It is possible this is a way to future proof for annotations.
18:36:03 <mck> rs: are people against having a link type?
18:36:14 <mck> mb: what is the point of linktype?
18:36:35 <mck> rs: In the aria dpub spec, there are lots of roles like links that do thing like point to biblio entry.
18:36:43 <mck> we want to avoid proliferation of roles.
18:36:52 <mck> if you are AT user you want to know it is a link
18:37:13 <mck> It is also useful to know what type it goes to.
18:37:39 <mck> mb: VoiceOver already does something like this.
18:37:54 <mck> mb: it says things like "internal link"
18:38:40 <MichielBijl> <div id="foo">
18:38:43 <mck> am I muted?
18:38:45 <MichielBijl> <a href="#foo">
18:38:57 <mck> how do i unmute
18:39:05 <mck> unmute me
18:40:26 <mgylling> q+
18:40:37 <jamesn> q+ to say probably need something to say if it is internal or not
18:41:04 <mck> rs:Michiel, you understand the concept?
18:41:17 <mck> mb: yes, not sure we need it. but I will read more.
18:42:38 <mck> Joanie: i included the note about roledescription because there is a distinct difference. roledescription has to be localized by the author. linktype is enumerated.
18:43:08 <mck> screen reader can programatically use the value of linktype because it is an enumeration.
18:43:26 <mck> but in some way it is similar. We don't want authors to use them interchangeably.
18:43:44 <clown> +1 to joanie's suggestion to fully describe the machine-readable difference between linktype and description.
18:43:54 <mck> rs: whatever DPUB has in their spec, please include here.
18:44:37 <mck> Joanie: I don't think the core needs all the DPUB values
18:44:56 <mck> Modules extend core and not all th dpub values are generally useful.
18:44:57 <tzviya> q-
18:45:55 <mck> rs: I would let dpub define the reference values
18:46:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:46:46 <mck> tzviya: Based on what AT devs are syaing, this isn't generally useful. Is that what we are asking?
18:46:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:47:09 <jamesn> q-
18:47:13 <mck> rs: No, there is not a way for an AT to know something is a link to a footnote or biblio.
18:47:30 <mck> Marcus: perhaps we could subclass it like we do with roles
18:47:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack mgylling
18:47:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:47:48 <mck> Joanie: you cant' subclass vluaes
18:48:17 <mck> Joanie: core would have a short list of values. DPUB would just have more values unique to DPUB.
18:48:45 <mck> Joanie: knowing that something is a link to a footnote might be useful in html.
18:49:35 <mck> Marcus: I don't think keeping reference as a value in core would hurt our table in dpub.
18:50:07 <mck> What is the problem with having more of the DPUB values in core?
18:50:53 <mck> Rich, please unmute me
18:51:50 <mck> I did, but rich seems to have me muted again, I unmuted my mic
18:56:06 <mck> MK: I see value in having more of the DPUB value in core.
18:56:12 <mck> rs: I am not opposed to that.
18:56:35 <mck> Marcus: we do have a worry that collective set of value is spread across documents.
18:56:47 <joanie> q+ To ask if the consensus is remove "reference" and add "footnote" to core
18:56:58 <mck> marcus: If we could put all the value in core, than that would be fine too.
18:58:56 <mck> Marcus: do we use prefixes on the values
18:59:37 <mck> joanie: we don't want some that havewhere you need prefixes and others where you don't
18:59:48 <mck> tzviya: we have only 4 values now
19:01:18 <mck> MK: why do you have to prefix values
19:01:34 <mck> rs: agree, we do not need to prefix values
19:01:48 <mck> it is not part of our extension module requirements.
19:01:57 <mck> rrsagent, make minutes
19:01:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/18-aria-minutes.html mck
19:02:06 <mck> rrsagent, make log public
19:02:29 <mck> rs: add the DPUB values to the core proposal.
19:02:34 <ShaneM> +1 to no prefixes on values
19:02:40 <mck> rrsagent, make minutes
19:02:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/18-aria-minutes.html mck
19:02:49 <mck> zakim, bye
19:02:49 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Joanmarie_Diggs, Tzviya, fesch, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Markus_Gylling, Bryan_Garaventa, jongund, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, MichielBijl
19:02:49 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
19:03:06 <mck> rrsagent, make minutes
19:03:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/18-aria-minutes.html mck
19:07:49 <ShaneM> personally I would prefer noteref (dovetails with new elements).  But can live with either
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