17:58:33 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #social
17:58:33 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/02/16-social-irc
17:58:35 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:58:35 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #social
17:58:37 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SOCL
17:58:37 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
17:58:38 <trackbot> Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
17:58:38 <trackbot> Date: 16 February 2016
18:00:05 <aaronpk> present+
18:00:09 <dromasca> dromasca has joined #social
18:00:09 <azaroth> Present+ Rob_Sanderson
18:00:11 <Arnaud> present+
18:00:15 <ben_thatmustbeme> present+
18:00:21 <Arnaud> agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-02-16
18:00:26 <Arnaud> chair: Arnaud
18:00:59 <cwebber2> cwebber2 has joined #social
18:01:23 <sandro> present+
18:01:25 <rhiaro> present+
18:02:02 <AnnB> present+
18:02:25 <dmitriz> dmitriz has joined #social
18:03:59 <KevinMarks> present+
18:05:07 <rhiaro> scribenick: rhiaro
18:05:20 <cwebber2-2> cwebber2-2 has joined #social
18:05:36 <dmitriz> present+
18:05:37 <cwebber2-2> present+ cwebber2
18:05:42 <rhiaro> TOPIC: Approval of minutes
18:05:49 <rhiaro> Arnaud: two sets to approve, last week, and from a copule of weeks ago
18:06:03 <ben_thatmustbeme> yeah, i think they were fixed right after last meeting
18:06:07 <dromasca> present+
18:06:15 <Arnaud> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-02-16
18:06:25 <Arnaud> Approval of Minutes of 2016-01-26
18:06:30 <Arnaud> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-01-26-minutes
18:06:40 <rhiaro> ... Any objections?
18:06:44 <rhiaro> +1
18:06:52 <azaroth> +1
18:06:54 <ben_thatmustbeme> +1
18:06:59 <cwebber2-2> +1
18:07:14 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: Approved Minutes of 2016-01-26
18:07:22 <rhiaro> ... And minutes from Feb 9
18:07:23 <Arnaud> Approval of Minutes of 2016-02-09
18:07:25 <AnnB> +1
18:07:28 <Arnaud> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-02-09-minutes
18:07:40 <ben_thatmustbeme> +1
18:07:48 <dromasca> +1
18:07:55 <cwebber2-2> +1
18:08:07 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: Approved Minutes of 2016-02-09
18:08:33 <rhiaro> ... Unfortunately when I was trying to put the agenda together yesterday it seemed not much had happened
18:08:39 <rhiaro> ... I carried over topics from last week, mostly about AS2 publication
18:08:54 <rhiaro> ... Trying to get there, no open issues, mostly a matter of getting the draft in shape so it can be published and reviewed by the group so that we can move on to CR
18:09:05 <rhiaro> ... jasnell has been super busy with another project
18:09:15 <tsyesika> present+
18:09:32 <rhiaro> ... every week I ask him what the status is and he tells me that he's going to get it done this week, said the same thing yesterday, I did point out he tells me that every week, but hopefully he will eventually get to it
18:09:57 <rhiaro> sandro: I'm surprised to hear you say that there are no open issues; what happened to the issues we agreed to open a couple of weeks ago like conformance clause
18:10:03 <rhiaro> Arnaud: I meant no technical issues
18:10:09 <rhiaro> ... There's still the issue of conformance and definition of the features
18:10:23 <rhiaro> ... I didn't expect Evan to also be absent today, he took the actions to take a crack at those things
18:10:43 <rhiaro> ... The agreement is that he would take a crack at addressing those things and we would publish the new draft and the group woudl review and discuss, and assuming this gets settled we'd be able to close this
18:10:48 <rhiaro> ... Then the only thing left would be the test suite
18:11:00 <rhiaro> sandro: I just realised that we have a guest on the call who I was going to introduce
18:11:05 <rhiaro> ... Natalie, can you hear me?
18:11:07 <rhiaro> Natalie: Hello
18:11:33 <rhiaro> sandro: You all my recall Harry Halpin was representin gthe dcent prorject which was an EU research project on decentralised technologies, and there were industrial partners implementing some of our technologies
18:11:46 <rhiaro> ... Natalie is a representative of one of those, so we asked if she could join the call to give their feedback on AS2
18:11:53 <rhiaro> ... With James and Evan not here, there might not be much use today
18:11:53 <ben_thatmustbeme> Still scribing
18:11:56 <rhiaro> ... But you could say hi
18:11:57 <cwebber2-2> hello Natalie!
18:12:17 <rhiaro> Natalie: I guess I should give a summary next week, or would you like to have an idea today of how we found it?
18:12:23 <rhiaro> Arnaud: I'd liek ot hear it, since we have time if you don't mind
18:12:51 <rhiaro> ... Maybe not getting into too much technical details that absent people wouldn't want to miss, but more of a higher level would be interesting
18:13:14 <rhiaro> Natalie: It was fairly straightforward to use, as just a format for the data. There are a few little things which I'm not sure why they're there and would have changed
18:13:30 <rhiaro> ... like having an @ on type, it's extra work in clojure and I'm not sure what tha'ts for
18:13:55 <rhiaro> ... Whether or not it's recommended to use the types in AS2 core, or if it's okay to make up your own, and what's intended, we weren't really sure
18:13:56 <azaroth> q+ to +1 rhiaro re alias
18:14:21 <rhiaro> ... Another thing that we were originally using the words from the types themselves were being displayed to the user, but actually we needed to translate everything
18:14:29 <rhiaro> ... Based on what the type was, rather than actually using the words themselves
18:14:39 <rhiaro> ... In general through it was fairly striaghtforward. The examples were good
18:15:01 <rhiaro> ... Someone has been working on having examples that people can test against, test parsers with, that's great. We've got tests already, but that's brilliant, and having more examples of what it should look like
18:15:11 <rhiaro> ... I don't have much feedback other than little things
18:15:16 <rhiaro> ... Another thing would be activities having incrementing ids
18:15:25 <rhiaro> ... For ordering. Sometimes timestamps are thes ame
18:15:30 <rhiaro> <rhiaro> Isn't that an implementation detail?
18:15:39 <rhiaro> Natalie: That's pretty much all the things
18:15:51 <rhiaro> ... Is everyone here familiar/using/involved?
18:15:59 <rhiaro> Arnaud: Sounds positive overall, but one question is
18:16:05 <rhiaro> ... maybe you should mention generally speaking what this project is about
18:16:13 <rhiaro> ... I'm not sure everybody is aware. What do you actually do with AS2?
18:16:30 <rhiaro> Natalie: at Thoughtworks we're building three tools as part of the dcent project. One of those tools, Mooncake, is a notifications tool
18:16:37 <rhiaro> ... Mooncake consumes AS2
18:16:46 <rhiaro> ... One of our other tools, Objective8, publishes activities
18:16:54 <rhiaro> ... an example would be if someone creates a new objective or asks a question
18:16:58 <rhiaro> ... these are possible actions in Objective8
18:17:06 <rhiaro> ... That gets published through an API which Mooncake consumes
18:17:17 <rhiaro> ... Sort of like a twitter feed, creates a new notification for any new objective or question
18:17:31 <rhiaro> ... The idea of the notificaiton tool is to give users feedback on any activiyt or event having in their dcent ecosystem
18:17:40 <rhiaro> ... Anything that's publishing activity streams that's connected to their instance of Mooncake
18:17:46 <Arnaud> q?
18:17:48 <rhiaro> Arnaud: Thank you.
18:17:55 <Arnaud> ack azaroth
18:17:55 <Zakim> azaroth, you wanted to +1 rhiaro re alias
18:17:56 <rhiaro> azaroth: I just wanted to ask a quick question
18:18:08 <rhiaro> ... Mostly to +1 what Amy noted about @ in irc
18:18:18 <rhiaro> ... In the most recent version id and type are aliased to @id and @type
18:18:33 <rhiaro> ... Whether the documentation could be clearer about that that the intend is to use id and type and avoid the @s which would solve the problem
18:18:39 <rhiaro> Natalie: Ah thank you. Looking at that now
18:18:59 <rhiaro> sandro: does a json-ld processor naturally favour those aliases?
18:19:23 <rhiaro> <rhiaro> does the context take care of that?
18:19:28 <rhiaro> sandro: in generation, not parsing
18:19:34 <rhiaro> azaroth: I believe yes
18:19:37 <rhiaro> ... The playground does
18:19:41 <rhiaro> ... To be tested, but..
18:20:00 <azaroth> +1 to Sandro
18:20:01 <rhiaro> sandro: so when we have a test suite it should be clear enough that the @ signs don't belong there because you'll get an error
18:20:11 <rhiaro> Natalie: why are they there in the examplse?
18:20:13 <cwebber2-2> wait
18:20:21 <cwebber2-2> are @id and id an error in AS2?
18:20:23 <rhiaro> sandro: they're in json-ld
18:20:27 <cwebber2-2> or is it just supported to have the alias
18:20:35 <cwebber2-2> sandro, ^^^
18:20:37 <rhiaro> ... But we changed them to not need it in AS2
18:20:37 <azaroth> cwebber2-2: Good question
18:20:52 <rhiaro> Arnaud: do you actually use json-ld, or you read this as json?
18:20:55 <rhiaro> Natalie: json
18:21:02 <rhiaro> sandro: but you do use extensions right?
18:21:08 <rhiaro> ... You have your own vocabulary for some of the things going on?
18:21:20 <rhiaro> Natalie: What do you mean? I don't think we've added anything that's not in here
18:21:47 <rhiaro> sandro: I had the impression from something I heard that when Objective8 is sending it's feed it's using a vocabulary that includes things relative to what Objective8 does, rather than just general AS2 things. Maybe I misunderstood
18:21:50 <rhiaro> Natalie: No, just using AS2
18:22:00 <rhiaro> Arnaud: This is interesting, touches a point i wanted to make
18:22:17 <rhiaro> ... I wanted to point out that AS2 is meant to be extensible so you could add your own elements to it, to your stream, so you can carry extra information that is not part of the standard
18:22:29 <rhiaro> ... Iw as going to ask if you use any extensions, so you just answered that, but I don't know if you're aware that you could
18:22:36 <azaroth> q+ to +1 cwebber's question
18:22:50 <rhiaro> Natalie: surely the idea about the standards that if this is the data I'm publishing I'm assuming that any consumer will only accept the AS2 standard keys
18:22:56 <rhiaro> ... So if I add my own that data will disappear it won't be used
18:23:31 <rhiaro> Arnaud: You're right, any time you use some extension you won't achieve the same level of interoperability that you have otherwise. But there is a sweet spot we're trying to find where we're not trying to cover the world, and at the same time tryign to provide a core set of functionality taht will address most of your use cases, but leave the door open for those who need to go beyond
18:23:32 <Arnaud> q?
18:24:07 <rhiaro> Natalie: I think a lot of what we were doing was around the usage of AS2 and trying out... I guess if you've got an endpoint that is being consumed by many things you might want that extensibility, but we were only being consumed by Mooncake which had the data in this format
18:24:21 <Arnaud> ack azaroth
18:24:21 <Zakim> azaroth, you wanted to +1 cwebber's question
18:24:37 <rhiaro> ... Making it clear which is the data being consumed by AS2 consumers, and what is being consumed by other things
18:24:43 <rhiaro> azaroth: Mooncake is a really awesome name btw
18:24:45 <KevinMarks> it may not disappear - depends on the client. One workaround is to put mf2 in your content
18:24:46 <KevinMarks> hm
18:24:47 <rhiaro> ... cwebber2 had a good question
18:24:59 <rhiaro> ... that @id would be an error?
18:25:04 <KevinMarks> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Activity_Streams links to http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams2.html whcih 404s
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18:25:11 <rhiaro> sandro: if both are acceptable, every consumer has to understand both, so natalie's problem is not solved
18:25:14 <rhiaro> ... Her code has to check for both
18:25:21 <rhiaro> ... So I was assuming we'd make it an error bu tI don't know
18:25:28 <rhiaro> ... Something someone should find in the spec, and make a test case
18:25:38 <rhiaro> Arnaud: is natalie on irc?
18:25:41 <rhiaro> ... Not that you have to be
18:25:47 <rhiaro> ... but peopel make comments and side questions there
18:26:00 <rhiaro> ... so if you hear people saying somebody else said this or that, they read it on irc
18:26:09 <rhiaro> ... I realise if you're not on there it might sound a bit weird
18:26:13 <rhiaro> ... Any other questions for natalie?
18:26:28 <rhiaro> azaroth: Is someoen going to take an action to check that? Especially as the examples all say @ and that's an error, that's a CR blocker
18:26:34 <rhiaro> Arnaud: was that volunteering?
18:26:40 <rhiaro> azaroth: .......sure, I'll do it.
18:26:43 <sandro> no good deed goes unpunished  :-)
18:26:47 <rhiaro> Arnaud: Thank you
18:26:50 <azaroth> :)
18:27:07 <rhiaro> Arnaud: Any other comments or questions?
18:27:25 <rhiaro> sandro: I know a little bit of this, but Natalie do you have peopel using these tools now, or expectations about whether they'll be publich or who is using them going forward
18:27:31 <rhiaro> Natalie: we don't have users, we do have a live demo
18:27:37 <rhiaro> ... I can send the links to sandro
18:27:56 <rhiaro> ... People go and play with that, it's a sandbox
18:28:07 <rhiaro> ... at the moment we've got people looking at the other tools
18:28:26 <rhiaro> ... Mooncake is more useful once you've a few things in the dcent ecosystem, at the moment we're only trying to get people to use one thing
18:28:31 <rhiaro> ... Less useful if it's just oen thing
18:28:42 <rhiaro> ... That being said, lots of people are looking at these tools so we'll see if anyone is interested
18:28:52 <rhiaro> Arnaud: If you can send a link I'm sure peopel would like to have a look
18:29:03 <rhiaro> sandro: How long will you be working on this? I understand dcent is winding down in a little bit
18:29:17 <rhiaro> Natalie: At the moment (things change) the dcent project ends at the end of May, including THoughtworks involvement
18:29:32 <rhiaro> ... Whether that will continue because there's more funding or we want to keep it going I'm not sure, but at the moment our end date is may
18:29:36 <rhiaro> ... These tools are open source though
18:29:44 <ben_thatmustbeme> https://github.com/ThoughtWorksInc/mooncake
18:30:32 <rhiaro> Arnaud: We're tryign to get to CR for AS2, which is when we as a working gropu declare that we have a spec that addresses our use cases and doesn't have any known technical issues, and that's when we're calling the world on implementation feedback
18:30:41 <rhiaro> ... So hopefully we'll be there before the end of may and then you can provide some formal feedback
18:30:47 <rhiaro> ... THat would be very helpful
18:30:51 <jasnell> jasnell has joined #social
18:31:09 <rhiaro> ... Let's move on
18:31:17 <rhiaro> ... I don't know what else we can talk about given the lack of editors
18:31:34 <rhiaro> ... WAiting for Evan to get back to us on different pieces
18:31:45 <rhiaro> ... Invited everyone else to add to the agenda, haven't seen any edits. Anything anyone wants to bring up?
18:32:05 <rhiaro> KevinMarks: Issues were already on the agenda, and I posted a couple of issues based on external comments, mostly reposting exteral comments
18:32:13 <rhiaro> ... on github, just to note I did that, to bring in some outside implementors who had questions and issues
18:32:22 <rhiaro> Arnaud: do you think the spec needs to be modified?
18:32:44 <rhiaro> KevinMarks: They're reactions to attempting to implement, so worth reading, but need clarifying to make actions to amend the spec
18:32:50 <rhiaro> Arnaud: Thank you
18:33:08 <rhiaro> sandro: Other possible agenda items, I wonder... we're four or five weeks from the f2f
18:33:17 <rhiaro> ... Hopefully everybody has answered on the wiki whether they're coming
18:33:45 <rhiaro> ... I assume the chairs will start to think about the agend,a but if people have goals or milestones they'd like to push for and have group support to push for, having some progress on each of our documents around the face to face, before or after, is probably important
18:33:54 <rhiaro> ... So having the editors think about what's necessary to move their document forward
18:34:01 <rhiaro> Arnaud: =1
18:34:06 <rhiaro> s/=/+
18:34:22 <rhiaro> Arnaud: there are quite a few document sin draft stages, I don't seem to see much activity, so I don't know what's going on
18:34:35 <rhiaro> ... You can expect as the f2f gets closer, you will be asked what's going on
18:34:45 <cwebber2-2> cwebber2-2 has joined #social
18:34:54 <ben_thatmustbeme> for my doc its that i'm super busy
18:34:55 <rhiaro> ... Always a question of whether people are busy which I understand, or if there's something that's blocking progress that we should tackle as a WG
18:35:09 <rhiaro> ... Unless there's anything else we can close early
18:35:32 <rhiaro> sandro: I forwarded Natalie's links, so if you want to go play with Mooncake or Objective8 during your remaining 35 minutes you can do that
18:35:39 <rhiaro> Arnaud: Let's close on this, thank you all for joining
18:35:46 <AnnB> rhiaro ++
18:35:53 <AnnB> Arnaud++
18:35:53 <azaroth> rhiaro++
18:35:55 <Loqi> Arnaud has 30 karma
18:35:56 <Loqi> rhiaro has 198 karma
18:35:59 <azaroth> Natalie++
18:36:01 <Loqi> Natalie has 1 karma
18:36:02 <Arnaud> trackbot, end meeting
18:36:02 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
18:36:02 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been aaronpk, Rob_Sanderson, Arnaud, ben_thatmustbeme, sandro, rhiaro, AnnB, KevinMarks, dmitriz, cwebber2, dromasca, tsyesika
18:36:03 <azaroth> Bye all :)
18:36:05 <cwebber2-2> cwebber2-2 has left #social
18:36:06 <AnnB> quit
18:36:10 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:36:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/16-social-minutes.html trackbot
18:36:11 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
18:36:11 <RRSAgent> I see no action items