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19:46:55 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/02/16-aapi-irc
19:46:57 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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19:46:59 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
19:46:59 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
19:47:00 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
19:47:00 <trackbot> Date: 16 February 2016
19:47:15 <clown> chair: Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:47:22 <clown> agenda: this
19:47:56 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1667 (All) Progress? https://www.w3.org/2016/01/26-aapi-minutes.html#item01
19:48:05 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1531 (All) IA2 mapping of role="text" -- latest from Cynthia/Alex/James Teh.
19:48:11 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-1011 (Rich) Bring Rich up to speed.
19:48:18 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1569/1585 (Joseph) Add to section on AAPI differences highlighting the features of UIA.
19:48:26 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1593 (Cynthia) Compare implementations of AAPI managed states and look for gaps.
19:48:34 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1691/ISSUE-1010 (Joseph) UIA mapping for aria-errormessage and role="error".
19:49:18 <clown> agenda+ Triage: https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/products/23 , https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=Core%20AAM&product=ARIA , https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=AccName%20AAM&product=ARIA , https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/26
19:49:25 <clown> agenda+ be done.
19:49:46 <clown> clown has changed the topic to: WebEx Access Code 641 707 405 (Next meeting 23–Feb-2016
19:50:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/16-aapi-minutes.html clown
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19:58:37 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
20:02:21 <joanie> scribe: joanie
20:02:40 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
20:03:01 <joanie> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
20:03:15 <joanie> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
20:03:51 <joanie> present+ Cynthia_Shelly
20:03:58 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 1
20:03:58 <Zakim> agendum 1. "ACTION-1667 (All) Progress? https://www.w3.org/2016/01/26-aapi-minutes.html#item01" taken up [from clown]
20:04:07 <clown> action-1667?
20:04:07 <trackbot> action-1667 -- Cynthia Shelly to Update the mapping spec for aria role region to reflect its landmark inheritance as defined in the aria 1.1 spec. -- due 2016-02-26 -- OPEN
20:04:07 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1667
20:04:18 <cyns> cyns has joined #aapi
20:04:35 <joanie> JS: This is not due for a while, but we need updates for role region for UIA.
20:04:49 <joanie> CS: I don't know the answer this moment, but it shouldn't take me long.
20:04:54 <clown> http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2016-January/001993.html
20:05:03 <joanie> JS: There's also some discussion on the IA2 list (see above URI).
20:05:23 <joanie> JS: Rich had said IA2 needed a new LANDMARK role.f
20:05:29 <joanie> s/role.f/role./
20:05:58 <joanie> JS: Alex said he couldn't add roles himself.
20:06:11 <joanie> JS: Alex also asked about the ATK discussion (if any).
20:06:18 <joanie> RS: ATK already has that role.
20:06:27 <clown> action:  Rich to followup with Alex about IA2 discussion re: adding a landmark role, similar to ATK
20:06:27 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2022 - Followup with alex about ia2 discussion re: adding a landmark role, similar to atk [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2016-02-23].
20:06:34 <joanie> RS: I'll take an action to follow up with Alex.
20:06:35 <clown> action-2022
20:06:35 <trackbot> action-2022 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Followup with alex about ia2 discussion re: adding a landmark role, similar to atk -- due 2016-02-23 -- OPEN
20:06:35 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2022
20:07:59 <joanie> JS: Alex sent that message on the 27th of January.
20:08:08 <joanie> RS: I remember seeing this. Has he done anything?
20:08:19 <clown> http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2016-January/001993.html
20:08:28 <joanie> JS: What Alex did is email the IA2 list. (See above URI.)
20:08:36 <joanie> RS: Ok, that's on my todo list.
20:09:55 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:09:55 <Zakim> agendum 2. "ACTION-1531 (All) IA2 mapping of role="text" -- latest from Cynthia/Alex/James Teh." taken up [from clown]
20:10:03 <clown> action-1531?
20:10:03 <trackbot> action-1531 -- David Bolter to Bolter to investigate ia2 mapping of role="text" -- due 2014-11-18 -- OPEN
20:10:03 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1531
20:10:16 <joanie> JS: This started out as a David Bolter action.
20:10:31 <joanie> JS: We started out in IA2 with text frames, then moved to static.
20:10:42 <joanie> JS: But then Cynthia brought up ways to do it in UIA.
20:10:43 <clown> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Feb/0032.html
20:10:54 <joanie> JS: One email is at above URI.
20:11:02 <clown> <img alt="foo" role="tesxt">
20:11:03 <joanie> JS: It's going to be a text pattern.
20:11:11 <joanie> CS: Right, but not a separate text pattern.
20:11:31 <joanie> JS: In UIA, there's not going to be any accessible object for the image element typed above.
20:11:43 <joanie> CS: That's also what happens with span elements.
20:11:52 <joanie> CS: That's the best way I can think of.
20:12:10 <joanie> CS: Unless there was a property like a tabindex, we wouldn't create a separate accessible.
20:12:27 <joanie> RS: So what we want is for the text role to be read inline.
20:12:42 <joanie> CS: The text pattern does have characters and character navigation.
20:12:47 <joanie> CS: Narrator supports that.
20:13:03 <joanie> CS: There are also breaks and the ability to get range markers.
20:13:26 <joanie> CS: So basically you're turning the img into a span (functionally).
20:13:39 <joanie> RS: What about caret tracking?
20:13:59 <joanie> CS: I'm not sure. This is the only thing I can think of to do. I have some doubts about this feature.
20:14:11 <joanie> RS: What if we have Larry on the call?
20:14:20 <joanie> CS: I'll talk to him first.
20:14:50 <joanie> RS: I don't know that the Mac has caret tracking.
20:14:53 <joanie> JS: I tested that.
20:15:27 <joanie> JS: If you're going character by character, it treats the img text "foo" as if it were a character.
20:15:44 <joanie> RS: That seems like a reasonable thing.
20:16:05 <joanie> CS: And also is aligned with how we do Chinese and Japanese characters.
20:16:38 <joanie> JS: In the accessibility inspector, there are three accessible objects: the text before the image, the text of the image, and the text after the image.
20:17:02 <joanie> RS: So if you were reading text in the middle of a paragraph and ran into an image, you wouldn't be saying image, right?
20:17:17 <joanie> JS: VoiceOver says image when the role is not present.
20:17:52 <joanie> RS: I guess what I'm saying is you don't want to pause in the middle; you just want to read the whole thing without pausing.
20:18:20 <joanie> (Group ponders what the user experience would be like if there are periods in the alt text.)
20:18:44 <joanie> JS: What about word-by-word examination of alt text?
20:18:59 <joanie> CS: Narrator doesn't support that. I don't know about other screen readers.
20:19:12 <joanie> CS: I have a way to map this, and the user experience seems bad.
20:21:36 <joanie> CS: I'm very nervous about the ramifications of this feature, and do not think it is worth the risk.
20:21:43 <joanie> JS: I also have misgivings.
20:21:56 <joanie> RS: We could consider limiting it to just images.
20:22:04 <joanie> CS: That would make it better....
20:22:20 <clown> <span role="text" aria-label="3 of 5 stars">★★★☆☆︎</span></p>
20:22:22 <joanie> JS: One of the examples in the spec involves 5 star glyphs.
20:22:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aapi
20:22:33 <clown> <span role="text" aria-label="3 of 5 stars">★★★☆☆︎</span></p>
20:23:24 <joanie> CS: And these glyphs exist in the wild.
20:23:32 <joanie> JS: And unicode has them.
20:23:57 <joanie> JS: And in Firefox you can arrow over each character separately.
20:25:49 <joanie> In Safari, the stars have a single accessible of StaticTextRole with a value of "3 of 5 stars".
20:26:14 <joanie> s/In Safari/JS: In Safari/
20:26:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> <span role="text" aria-label="3 of 5 stars"><span role=“img”>★★★☆☆︎</span></span></p>
20:27:12 <joanie> RS: You could also do the above.
20:28:41 <joanie> CS: We create currently a group with "3 of 5 stars" as it's name and no children.
20:28:56 <joanie> RS: What you could do is force it to be an image....
20:29:19 <joanie> CS: If I were authoring this, I'd use role="image" on this.
20:29:27 <joanie> JS: That's what Stefan said as well.
20:29:47 <joanie> RS: I say we go back to Steve and say you cannot put role="text" on something unless it's an image.
20:30:17 <joanie> CS: I think we should say it's only for images and then ask for a WCAG technique.
20:30:29 <joanie> RS: I agree with that.
20:30:46 <joanie> CS: I'd do a span with role="image"
20:30:59 <joanie> JS: Are we changing the ARIA spec?
20:31:58 <clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#text
20:32:00 <joanie> RS: We could say "in HTML..." in the spec. Because SVG's needs are different, and the spec applies to both.
20:32:19 <joanie> RS: We could say that you can't use this on the text and tspan elements.
20:32:38 <clown> <div role="text">
20:32:38 <clown>   <p>I</p>
20:32:38 <clown>   <p>like</p>
20:32:38 <clown>   <p>turtles</p>
20:32:39 <clown> </div>
20:33:16 <joanie> JD: I think we could do a change in the spec. If nothing else, we need to get rid of the paragraph example.
20:34:11 <joanie> BG: The one use case for the above is that some authoring causes ATs to treat a single button as if it's broken up.
20:34:21 <joanie> RS: What if you put an anchor in the middle of that?
20:34:36 <joanie> JS: This is approaching the next agenda item.
20:34:37 <clown> "Use caution when using the text role on structural elements. In particular, avoid using the text role on elements with interactive descendants"
20:34:59 <joanie> JS: (Reads from the spec, text quoted above.)
20:35:07 <joanie> CS: Authors are going to mess this up.
20:35:34 <joanie> RS: Can we give you, Joanie, and action item to limit this to graphics and go back to Steve?
20:35:37 <joanie> JS: I am.
20:35:39 <joanie> CS: I am.
20:35:41 <joanie> RS: I am.
20:35:45 <joanie> JD: I am.
20:36:02 <joanie> RS: Give me an action to go back to Steve.
20:36:23 <clown> ISSUE-1011
20:36:23 <trackbot> ISSUE-1011 -- For role="text", there needs to be requirements on user agents for overrides, such as controls, events, and other global aria properties, like there is for role="presentation". -- open
20:36:23 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1011
20:36:30 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:36:30 <Zakim> agendum 3. "ISSUE-1011 (Rich) Bring Rich up to speed." taken up [from clown]
20:37:16 <joanie> JS: A couple of meetings ago we concluded there was not enough guidance in the spec about the dangers and need to limit/override it.
20:38:13 <clown> action:  Joanie to write a proposal about how to modify the definition of role text to limit its use.
20:38:14 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2023 - Write a proposal about how to modify the definition of role text to limit its use. [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2016-02-23].
20:38:38 <clown> action:  Rich to discuss with Steve F about limitations wrt to  role text
20:38:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2024 - Discuss with steve f about limitations wrt to  role text [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2016-02-23].
20:38:54 <clown> action-2023
20:38:54 <trackbot> action-2023 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Write a proposal about how to modify the definition of role text to limit its use. -- due 2016-02-23 -- OPEN
20:38:54 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2023
20:39:12 <joanie> JD: I'm happy to write a draft, but as you may recall, when this new role was first raised, I brought up my concerns and got the impression from Steve and James that I was "wrong."
20:39:28 <joanie> JD: So I can write text, but I anticipate getting some pushback from Steve and/or James.
20:39:37 <joanie> RS: I'll talk to Steve first.
20:40:49 <joanie> JS: Also, James Teh get into this and says he wants IAccessibleText implemented for it, even though it has gotchas.
20:40:59 <joanie> RS: Why would he want that if we limit it to images?
20:41:06 <joanie> Group: True.
20:41:26 <joanie> JS: In the meantime, the mapping is to ROLE_STATICTEXT.
20:41:36 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:41:36 <Zakim> agendum 4. "ACTION-1569/1585 (Joseph) Add to section on AAPI differences highlighting the features of UIA." taken up [from clown]
20:42:01 <clown> action-1569
20:42:01 <trackbot> action-1569 -- Jason Kiss to Create a section that describes AAPI differences -- due 2015-03-03 -- OPEN
20:42:01 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1569
20:42:09 <clown> action-1585
20:42:09 <trackbot> action-1585 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Add to the section on differences among aapis highlighting the features of uia. -- due 2016-01-15 -- OPEN
20:42:09 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1585
20:42:10 <joanie> JS: I was hoping to have this (my actions to add Jason's and Cynthia's text about AAPI differences) done.
20:42:25 <joanie> JS: But I was spending time on combo boxes, so I need to put this action off for another week.
20:43:26 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:43:26 <Zakim> agendum 5. "ACTION-1593 (Cynthia) Compare implementations of AAPI managed states and look for gaps." taken up [from clown]
20:43:30 <clown> action-1593
20:43:30 <trackbot> action-1593 -- Cynthia Shelly to Compare implementations of AAPI managed states and look for gaps. -- due 2016-02-08 -- OPEN
20:43:30 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1593
20:43:42 <joanie> JS: Cynthia, this action is yours.
20:43:51 <joanie> CS: I have not done this yet.
20:43:57 <joanie> JS: New due date?
20:44:02 <joanie> CS: Make it next week.
20:44:23 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:44:23 <Zakim> agendum 5 was just opened, joanie
20:44:29 <joanie> Zakim, close this item
20:44:29 <Zakim> agendum 5 closed
20:44:31 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
20:44:31 <Zakim> 6. ACTION-1691/ISSUE-1010 (Joseph) UIA mapping for aria-errormessage and role="error". [from clown]
20:44:31 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:44:32 <Zakim> agendum 6. "ACTION-1691/ISSUE-1010 (Joseph) UIA mapping for aria-errormessage and role="error"." taken up [from clown]
20:44:41 <clown> action-1691
20:44:41 <trackbot> action-1691 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Propose UIA mapping for aria-errormessage. -- due 2015-12-31 -- CLOSED
20:44:41 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1691
20:44:50 <clown> issue-1010
20:44:50 <trackbot> issue-1010 -- Add an error role -- open
20:44:50 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1010
20:45:12 <joanie> JS: I've completed this. I got the information from Cynthia and made the changes.
20:45:13 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ariaErrorMessage
20:45:22 <joanie> JS: It's at the above URI for UIA.
20:45:29 <joanie> JS: (Reads mapping)
20:45:54 <joanie> JS: And now that I'm looking at the table, there are a lot of "TBD"s.
20:46:12 <joanie> CS: Looks fine to me.
20:46:18 <joanie> JS: Objections from anybody?
20:46:21 <joanie> (None)
20:46:29 <joanie> JS: This action can be closed then.
20:46:39 <joanie> JS: I already closed it.
20:47:10 <joanie> JS: I'm going to close the issue to add an error role. (Issue 1010)
20:47:26 <joanie> JS: That makes me worry about the other ones.
20:48:04 <clown> action-1692
20:48:04 <trackbot> action-1692 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Propose ATK/AT-SPI mapping for aria-errormessage -- due 2015-08-04 -- OPEN
20:48:04 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1692
20:48:29 <joanie> JD: I know what I want to do for ATK, but we're expected to try to keep IA2 and ATK in alignment where possible.
20:48:48 <joanie> JD: And I've not had time to talk to Alex and James Teh about this.
20:49:11 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:49:11 <Zakim> agendum 7. "Triage: https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/products/23 , https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=Core%20AAM&product=ARIA ,
20:49:13 <Zakim> ... https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=AccName%20AAM&product=ARIA , https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/26" taken up [from clown]
20:49:35 <joanie> action-1373
20:49:35 <trackbot> action-1373 -- Cynthia Shelly to Create a test case for when aria-posinset and aria-setsize are provided explicitly on some but not all elements. -- due 2016-02-08 -- OPEN
20:49:35 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1373
20:49:55 <joanie> CS: One of these days.... :)
20:50:04 <joanie> CS: Give me two weeks. I really want to do it.
20:50:32 <clown> action-1541?
20:50:32 <trackbot> action-1541 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Investigate and propose mappings for aria-modal property for axapi. -- due 2016-02-08 -- OPEN
20:50:32 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1541
20:51:04 <joanie> JS: This is the mapping for AX API. I've been following the issue in WebKit's bugilla.
20:51:24 <joanie> JS: And they have now fixed the issue. So I need to look at the mapping and update the Core AAM.
20:51:53 <joanie> Topic: Blank Titles in ARIA labels and name computation.
20:52:07 <joanie> RS: We don't have any special cases for "".
20:52:10 <joanie> JS: Example?
20:52:32 <joanie> RS: In SVG, if you have a circle and it doesn't have any attributes, you don't map it.
20:52:49 <joanie> RS: But if you have circle with aria-label="", it winds up in the accessibility tree.
20:53:04 <joanie> RS: The SVG group has been discussing this.
20:53:36 <joanie> RS: I would think we just follow the spec and expose it, not taking the empty string into account.
20:53:58 <joanie> CS: My one concern is that a lot of authoring tools put in empty strings for accessibility attributes.
20:54:10 <joanie> RS: But that should be checked by a conformance checker.
20:54:25 <joanie> CS: The other thing we could do is say empty strings don't count.
20:54:30 <joanie> JS: We could do that.
20:54:46 <joanie> JS: I think we had a test for this in 1.0.
20:55:15 <joanie> CS: But this is slightly different.
20:56:09 <joanie> JS: I see Alex saying that we're not going to take the time to check the string.
20:58:46 <joanie> CS: It would be nice if empty strings didn't wind up being exposed.
20:58:54 <joanie> JS: So what do you want Rich?
20:59:19 <joanie> RS: If the author does an empty string, I think the associated (shape) element should be in the tree.
20:59:41 <joanie> Group: And the author is not especially bright.
21:00:27 <clown> +1
21:00:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: User Agents will not correct alternative text solutions for elements when the text is blank or empty. It is an author error.
21:01:40 <clown> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pfwg/raw-file/default/ARIA/1.0/tests/test-files/name-computation-input/536.html
21:03:56 <joanie> Zakim, part
21:03:56 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Joanmarie_Diggs, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Bryan_Garaventa, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Cynthia_Shelly
21:03:56 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
21:04:09 <joanie> scribeOptions: -final
21:04:15 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop