15:37:58 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
15:37:58 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/02/09-wai-wcag-irc
15:38:00 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:38:02 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
15:38:02 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
15:38:03 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
15:38:03 <trackbot> Date: 09 February 2016
15:38:10 <Joshue108> zakim, agenda?
15:38:10 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
15:38:11 <Zakim> 4. • Github issues walkthru. https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues [from Joshue108]
15:38:20 <Joshue108> zakim, clear agenda?
15:38:20 <Zakim> agenda cleared
15:38:40 <Joshue108> agenda+ Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20160209
15:38:49 <Joshue108> agenda+ LVTF Requirements Document review
15:38:58 <Joshue108> agenda+ Dpub review (http://w3c.github.io/dpub-accessibility/)
15:39:07 <Joshue108> agenda+ Comments on techs and understanding
15:39:15 <Joshue108> agenda+ Github issues. https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues
15:39:28 <Joshue108> Chair: Josh
15:39:44 <Joshue108> Scribelist: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribe_List
15:44:27 <AWK> AWK has joined #wai-wcag
15:44:32 <AWK> zakim, agenda?
15:44:32 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
15:44:33 <Zakim> 1. Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20160209 [from Joshue108]
15:44:33 <Zakim> 2. LVTF Requirements Document review [from Joshue108]
15:44:33 <Zakim> 3. Dpub review (http://w3c.github.io/dpub-accessibility/) [from Joshue108]
15:44:34 <Zakim> 4. Comments on techs and understanding [from Joshue108]
15:44:34 <Zakim> 5. Github issues. https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues [from Joshue108]
15:45:22 <AWK> agenda+ Quickref update
15:45:31 <alastairc> alastairc has joined #wai-wcag
15:54:50 <laura> laura has joined #wai-wcag
15:59:10 <adam_solomon> adam_solomon has joined #wai-wcag
16:01:20 <Joshue108> present+ Joshue108
16:01:41 <adam_solomon_> adam_solomon_ has joined #wai-wcag
16:01:49 <AWK> Zakim, which meeting is this?
16:01:49 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, AWK.
16:02:05 <yatil> trackbot, which meeting is this?
16:02:05 <trackbot> Sorry, yatil, I don't understand 'trackbot, which meeting is this?'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
16:02:11 <AWK> +AWK
16:02:14 <Joshue108> zakim, meeting?
16:02:14 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, Joshue108.
16:02:16 <Mike_Elledge> Mike_Elledge has joined #wai-wcag
16:02:29 <jon_avila> jon_avila has joined #wai-wcag
16:02:29 <yatil> trackbot, status
16:02:34 <AWK> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:02:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/09-wai-wcag-minutes.html AWK
16:02:34 <jon_avila> present+jon_avila
16:02:36 <MoeKraft> MoeKraft has joined #wai-wcag
16:03:26 <adam_solomon__> adam_solomon__ has joined #wai-wcag
16:03:35 <AWK> rrsagent, set logs public
16:03:38 <sarahhorton> sarahhorton has joined #wai-wcag
16:03:45 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #wai-wcag
16:03:47 <yatil> trackbot, is the meeting started?
16:03:47 <trackbot> Sorry, yatil, I don't understand 'trackbot, is the meeting started?'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
16:04:44 <marcjohlic> present+ marcjohlic
16:04:51 <David> David has joined #wai-wcag
16:04:52 <yatil> present+ EricE
16:05:04 <MoeKraft> present+ MoeKraft
16:05:15 <laura> present+ Laura
16:05:39 <Mike_Elledge> Present+ Mike Elledge
16:05:42 <alastairc> present+ AlastairC
16:05:43 <adam_solomon__> present+ adam_solomon__
16:05:50 <sarahhorton> present+ Sarah Horton
16:06:04 <Greg> Greg has joined #wai-wcag
16:06:05 <AWK> +AWK
16:06:13 <David> Present+ David_MacDonald
16:06:53 <Greg> present+
16:07:07 <jon_avila> zakim, list attendees
16:07:07 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been AWK, Josh, wayne, jon_avila, JF, Sarah_Swierenga, MichaelC, Katie, Haritos-Shea, JamesNurthen, Laura, Mike, Elledge, Jan, Rakesh, Eric,
16:07:10 <Zakim> ... LisaS, Kathy, David_MacDonald, Joshue108, Srini, EricE, marcjohlic, adam_solomon, Greg_Lowney, MoeKraft, AlastairC, adam_solomon__, Horton, Greg
16:07:33 <yatil> s/Mike Elledge/Mike_Elledge
16:07:45 <yatil> s/Sarah Horton/Sarah_Horton/
16:07:56 <Sarah_Swierenga> Sarah_Swierenga has joined #wai-wcag
16:08:00 <AWK> Chair: AWK
16:08:12 <AWK> Chair: Joshue
16:08:46 <adam_solomon__> zakim, take up item 6
16:08:46 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Quickref update" taken up [from AWK]
16:08:58 <yatil> http://w3c.github.io/wai-wcag-quickref/?currentsidebar=%23col_customize
16:09:22 <_665> _665 has joined #wai-wcag
16:10:04 <Joshue108> q?
16:10:18 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #wai-wcag
16:10:19 <David> q+
16:10:26 <Joshue108> q+
16:10:26 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
16:10:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/09-wai-wcag-minutes.html jamesn
16:10:29 <adam_solomon__> eric: have all data, mcooper prepared json file, initiative for tagging system - in process, bringing to wcag about two weeks
16:10:30 <Joshue108> ack davi
16:11:02 <adam_solomon__> david: whats wrong?
16:11:38 <adam_solomon__> eric: open one up the other is disabled, etc
16:11:40 <Joshue108> ack me
16:12:44 <Joshue108> q?
16:13:03 <adam_solomon__> david: is this using jquery collapsible?
16:13:53 <Joshue108> q?
16:13:58 <adam_solomon__> eric: bootstrap, but final version may not include accordion
16:14:02 <Mike_Elledge> looks great!
16:14:06 <adam_solomon__> zakim, take up item 1
16:14:06 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20160209" taken up [from Joshue108]
16:14:07 <Kathy> Kathy has joined #wai-wcag
16:14:28 <AWK> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20160209/results
16:14:31 <Kathy> present+ Kathy
16:14:57 <adam_solomon__> TOPIC: item 156
16:16:05 <adam_solomon__> joshua: regarding spacial relationships, zoom
16:17:45 <AWK> q+
16:18:05 <adam_solomon__> alastair, laura: consider rwd
16:18:38 <_665> _665 has joined #wai-wcag
16:18:54 <Joshue108> q?
16:19:18 <jamesn> q+
16:19:46 <AWK> ack awk
16:19:47 <Joshue108> ack awk
16:19:56 <Mike_Elledge> q+
16:20:14 <Joshue108> ack james
16:20:26 <adam_solomon__> awk: using ctrl+ zooms (may not adjust layout), are we talking about the old zoom technique? as opposed to resize browser
16:21:06 <jon_avila> +1 to James
16:21:08 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #wai-wcag
16:21:19 <Joshue108> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/G142.html
16:21:45 <alastairc> q+
16:21:49 <adam_solomon__> james: can fix this easily: test procedure works (doesn't mention the spacial problem), just description needs work. With zoom we may not want mobile redesign, all important content should still be available
16:21:59 <AWK> maybe use the language from the procedure in the description:
16:22:12 <SarahHorton> SarahHorton has joined #wai-wcag
16:22:17 <AWK> change: This technique requires that the zoom function preserve all spatial relationships on the page and that all functionality continues to be available.
16:22:23 <Joshue108> q?
16:22:23 <jon_avila> q?
16:22:36 <AWK> to: This technique requires that the zoom function preserve all content and functionality on the page.
16:23:17 <Joshue108> ack mike
16:23:19 <adam_solomon__> james: need to fix this easily - because as is discourages rwd because the tech mentions ctrl+
16:24:24 <Joshue108> ack ala
16:24:28 <jon_avila> I often run into mobile versions of sites on my desktop because I use low resolution.  Sometimes those sites don't have all the same functionality in the RWD version.  So this is a new issue that is important.
16:24:41 <adam_solomon__> mike: separate technique as opposed to just browser zoom
16:24:58 <Joshue108> q?
16:25:41 <adam_solomon__> alastair: +1 to james comment that technique as is may discourage rwd (may be obsolete)
16:26:08 <jon_avila> q+
16:26:27 <AWK> q+
16:26:34 <Joshue108> ack jon
16:27:19 <David> +1
16:27:31 <Joshue108> ack awk
16:27:36 <jamesn> +1 to that
16:27:47 <adam_solomon__> jon: i use low res and immdeiately get mobile view, zoom going to mobile biew and losing content may be accessibility issue
16:28:30 <Mike_Elledge> q+
16:29:39 <Joshue108> ack mike
16:29:51 <adam_solomon__> awk: even if we produce new tech should still update old one
16:31:00 <jon_avila> horizontal scrolling is not relevant to this success criteria IMO
16:31:38 <Joshue108> q?
16:31:40 <adam_solomon__> mike: point out horizontal scrolling
16:31:55 <adam_solomon__> jon: for 1.4.4 can still have scroll
16:31:59 <jamesn> q? to ask if there is a way to get something viewable from one of the WCAG xml files
16:32:51 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/blob/Issue156/wcag20/sources/techniques/general/G142.xml
16:32:58 <Joshue108> change: This technique requires that the zoom function preserve all spatial relationships on the page and that all functionality continues to be available.
16:33:02 <JF> JF has joined #wai-wcag
16:33:10 <Joshue108> to: This technique requires that the zoom function preserve all content and functionality on the page.
16:33:52 <adam_solomon__> awk: suggest removing words spacial relationships see earlier edit 18:22
16:33:56 <Joshue108> Suggestion: This technique requires that the zoom function preserve all content, relationships and functionality on the page.
16:34:05 <adam_solomon__> joshua: not clear what preserve all content is
16:34:35 <Wayne> Wayne has joined #wai-wcag
16:35:03 <Greg> q+
16:35:32 <adam_solomon__> awk: concerned if zoom causes text content to be hidden like in mobile view
16:36:00 <laura> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/commit/582ae7d0658fb17c1010fcfe0c4886135b2804ae?diff=split
16:36:24 <Joshue108> q?
16:36:33 <yatil> --> Diff: https://github.com/w3c/wcag/compare/master...Issue156
16:36:37 <Joshue108> ack greg
16:37:31 <AWK> q+
16:37:45 <AWK> q-
16:40:20 <SarahHorton> q+
16:40:28 <Joshue108> ack sarah
16:41:14 <Joshue108> q?
16:41:17 <Greg> I suggest that if we use the phrase "preserve all content" we be very clear as to whether or not that prohibits the page from hiding some content (e.g. under a collapsible menu).
16:41:18 <AWK> https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/visual-audio-contrast-scale.html
16:41:57 <Joshue108> q?
16:42:15 <jnurthen> jnurthen has joined #wai-wcag
16:43:36 <adam_solomon> adam_solomon has joined #wai-wcag
16:43:40 <adam_solomon> im back
16:44:02 <Greg> q+
16:44:13 <adam_solomon> joshua: many devices - can zoom in without resize
16:45:39 <adam_solomon> wayne: hard resize is critical because people cant read long lines of text
16:46:08 <Greg> As I noted in my response to 156, while most desktop browsers support zoom that reflows, many mobile browsers do not. That leaves page-provided functionality the only easy way to get enlarged text that doesn't require horizontal scrolling.
16:46:12 <Joshue108> q?
16:46:18 <Joshue108> ack greg
16:47:54 <Joshue108> q?
16:47:59 <alastairc> q+
16:48:16 <Joshue108> ack al
16:48:17 <adam_solomon> greg: re: some systems dont support zoom so in those cases must provide text resize,
16:48:57 <SarahHorton> Also some people resize text in system settings
16:49:12 <adam_solomon> alastair: where is best place to have discussion about these issues
16:49:14 <Joshue108> zakim, agenda?
16:49:14 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
16:49:15 <Zakim> 1. Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20160209 [from Joshue108]
16:49:15 <Zakim> 2. LVTF Requirements Document review [from Joshue108]
16:49:15 <Zakim> 3. Dpub review (http://w3c.github.io/dpub-accessibility/) [from Joshue108]
16:49:16 <Zakim> 4. Comments on techs and understanding [from Joshue108]
16:49:16 <Zakim> 5. Github issues. https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues [from Joshue108]
16:49:16 <Zakim> 6. Quickref update [from AWK]
16:49:24 <adam_solomon> joshua: low vision task force
16:49:56 <Joshue108> s/joshua/Joshue
16:50:31 <adam_solomon> RESOLUTION: leave open
16:50:52 <adam_solomon> TOPIC: Proposed change to 2.2 in Extension Requirements
16:52:39 <AWK> I thought that Greg's edits were good
16:53:27 <alastairc> For option one, does it need the 'scope' term? E.g. "Existing success criteria may be altered by an extension as long as the resulting change continues to either satisfy, reinforce or strengthen the conformance requirements of any given WCAG 2.0 success criteria."
16:55:16 <Wayne> q+
16:55:25 <adam_solomon> joshua: use of word scope to communicate the idea that extensions affect change in sc hence verbose
16:55:52 <adam_solomon> greg: scope doesnt convey - try a different word
16:57:04 <AWK> Extensions which modify existing success criteria must ensure that pages which satisfy the changed success criteria also satisfy the original version.
16:57:10 <AWK> q+
16:57:14 <Joshue108> ack wayne
16:57:53 <jnurthen> q+ to say i have a big problem with option 1
16:58:06 <Joshue108> ack awk
16:59:06 <adam_solomon> awk: i do have problem with use of scope, see my earlier suggestion (18:57)
16:59:37 <Joshue108> ack jame
17:00:14 <jnurthen> ack me
17:00:14 <Zakim> jnurthen, you wanted to say i have a big problem with option 1
17:00:16 <Joshue108> ack jn
17:01:20 <alastairc> +1 on AWK's version at 16:57 (or xx:57, seems to be time zone dependant).
17:02:28 <adam_solomon> +1 to awks option
17:03:38 <Joshue108> +1 to AWKS suggested text
17:04:06 <Wayne> +1 Andrew if we don't find new confusions
17:04:55 <jon_avila> I'm not sure it will solve their concerns
17:04:57 <jnurthen> +1 to AWK version
17:05:13 <Joshue108> q?
17:05:24 <SarahHorton> I would substitute "which" with "that" in both cases — just an editorial comment
17:06:21 <adam_solomon> wayne: awks option wont assuage concerns
17:06:43 <AWK> s/wayne: awks/Jon: awks
17:07:45 <adam_solomon> joshua: i need to consider this more
17:08:02 <Wayne> q+
17:08:31 <Joshue108> I like Alastairs text
17:08:38 <Joshue108> "Existing success criteria may be altered by an extension as long as the resulting change continues to either satisfy, reinforce or strengthen the conformance requirements of any given WCAG 2.0 success criteria."
17:08:43 <Joshue108> dropping the scope.
17:09:07 <adam_solomon> andrew: we should come up with something to get out to public comment
17:10:20 <jnurthen> change "any given" to "the original"
17:10:30 <Joshue108> "Existing success criteria may be altered by an extension as long as the resulting change continues to either satisfy, reinforce or strengthen the conformance requirements of WCAG 2.0 success criteria.
17:11:18 <adam_solomon> andrew: "reinforce strengthen" language not appropriate
17:12:03 <Joshue108> q?
17:12:51 <Mike_Elledge> q+
17:12:55 <Joshue108> ack way
17:12:59 <alastairc> Another example: 1.4.4 could be expanded to include preventing horizontal scrolling...
17:13:00 <adam_solomon> andrew: we could add more specific example for change in criteria level to clarify the point
17:13:02 <Mike_Elledge> q+
17:13:27 <adam_solomon> wayne: if extension intersects with sc then it makes it stronger
17:13:37 <adam_solomon> andrew: doesnt make it weaker
17:13:45 <Joshue108> ack mike
17:14:20 <jon_avila> What about adding "Within an extension" to the beginning of the sentence: Within an extension a modified existing success criteria must ensure that pages which satisfy the changed success criteria also satisfy the original version.
17:15:24 <Joshue108> q?
17:15:51 <adam_solomon> RESOLUTION: leave open - take it up on list
17:16:34 <Joshue108> zakim, next item
17:16:34 <Zakim> agendum 2. "LVTF Requirements Document review" taken up [from Joshue108]
17:16:42 <laura> http://w3c.github.io/low-vision-a11y-tf/requirements.html
17:17:21 <adam_solomon> zakim, take up item 2
17:17:21 <Zakim> agendum 2. "LVTF Requirements Document review" taken up [from Joshue108]
17:17:43 <Joshue108> zakim, agenda?
17:17:43 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
17:17:44 <Zakim> 2. LVTF Requirements Document review [from Joshue108]
17:17:44 <Zakim> 3. Dpub review (http://w3c.github.io/dpub-accessibility/) [from Joshue108]
17:17:44 <Zakim> 4. Comments on techs and understanding [from Joshue108]
17:17:45 <Zakim> 5. Github issues. https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues [from Joshue108]
17:17:45 <Zakim> 6. Quickref update [from AWK]
17:17:53 <AWK> Zakim, close item 6
17:17:53 <Zakim> agendum 6, Quickref update, closed
17:17:55 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:17:55 <Zakim> 2. LVTF Requirements Document review [from Joshue108]
17:18:25 <adam_solomon> wg hopefully will review lv doc later this week
17:18:32 <Joshue108> Digital Publishing Accessibility Note
17:18:39 <adam_solomon> zakim, take up item 3
17:18:39 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Dpub review (http://w3c.github.io/dpub-accessibility/)" taken up [from Joshue108]
17:18:44 <Joshue108> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-accessibility/
17:19:52 <adam_solomon> andrew: volunteers needed to check this doc
17:20:00 <adam_solomon> wayne: i can help
17:21:17 <adam_solomon> kathy: i can help but not right now
17:21:47 <adam_solomon> Zakim, close item 3
17:21:47 <Zakim> agendum 3, Dpub review (http://w3c.github.io/dpub-accessibility/), closed
17:21:49 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:21:49 <Zakim> 2. LVTF Requirements Document review [from Joshue108]
17:22:21 <adam_solomon> zakim, take up item 4
17:22:21 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Comments on techs and understanding" taken up [from Joshue108]
17:23:16 <Joshue108> q?
17:23:22 <adam_solomon> andrew: when cooper returns, tecchs and understanding with new changes next week for review and target early march for pub
17:23:47 <adam_solomon> Zakim, close item 4
17:23:47 <Zakim> agendum 4, Comments on techs and understanding, closed
17:23:48 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:23:48 <Zakim> 2. LVTF Requirements Document review [from Joshue108]
17:24:34 <Mike_Elledge> bye all
17:24:38 <adam_solomon> andrew: github issues: everyone should take a look at these issues and contribute
17:25:51 <AWK> trackbot, end meeting
17:25:51 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
17:25:51 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been AWK, Josh, wayne, jon_avila, JF, Sarah_Swierenga, MichaelC, Katie, Haritos-Shea, JamesNurthen, Laura, Mike, Elledge, Jan, Rakesh, Eric,
17:25:54 <Zakim> ... LisaS, Kathy, David_MacDonald, Joshue108, Srini, EricE, marcjohlic, adam_solomon, Greg_Lowney, MoeKraft, AlastairC, adam_solomon__, Horton, Greg
17:25:59 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:25:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/09-wai-wcag-minutes.html trackbot
17:26:00 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
17:26:00 <RRSAgent> I see no action items