IRC log of aria-apg on 2016-02-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:57:58 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
17:58:06 [jamesn]
rrsagent, make log world
17:58:24 [CB]
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17:58:26 [jamesn]
meeting: ARIA APG TF
17:59:42 [jamesn]
present+ JamesNurthen
17:59:47 [CB]
present+ CBAveritt
18:01:50 [IanPouncey]
present+ IanPouncey
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18:02:00 [LJWatson]
present+ LJWatson
18:02:18 [mck]
present+ matt_king
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18:06:36 [jamesn]
Agenda+ Landmark guidance review
18:06:36 [jamesn]
Agenda+ Update pattern work assignments and status
18:06:36 [jamesn]
Agenda+ Continue review text of section "2.32 Tool Bar" in the keyboard interaction notes
18:06:36 [jamesn]
Agenda+ Review text of section 2.18 listbox
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18:07:30 [cpandhi]
18:07:54 [jemma]
present+ JaeunJemmaKu
18:08:38 [cpandhi]
James: CSUN is approaching and might be interest to APG
18:08:56 [jamesn]
18:09:26 [cpandhi]
James:put together 2 or 3 design patterns and ask people to take a look and provide feedback or suggestions
18:09:39 [jamesn]
18:11:32 [jamesn]
q+ to suggest Accordion for that
18:11:39 [MichielBijl]
present+ Michiel_Bijl
18:11:47 [cpandhi]
Ian: appropriate patterns on best experiences with visual appearance and keyboard
18:12:09 [Birkir]
Menu/menubutton certainly come to mind as ideal candidates for user testing.
18:13:04 [cpandhi]
MCK: also something we want to do at the conference, name and place and volunteers to work on it
18:14:15 [cpandhi]
Ian: CSUN is a big event and encourage people to provide feedback, we have a room for Sat morning, lot of people may have left by that time, use that time
18:15:23 [Birkir]
I will be there on Sat morning (I fly out Sunday), happy to help out.
18:15:25 [cpandhi]
Ian: Some time at CSUN and collect the feedback Sat morning in an in person event, questions really simple and get responses
18:16:21 [cpandhi]
MCK: suggestion for best practices, authoring guide, i would like to do user research at some poit
18:16:33 [jemma]
I am happy to help.
18:16:41 [jamesn]
18:16:59 [cpandhi]
Ian: not necessary APG, which patterns we could use from broad range of people
18:17:13 [jamesn]
18:17:42 [cpandhi]
MCK: looking for ideas or people or both?
18:18:06 [jamesn]
zakim, who is on the call?
18:18:06 [Zakim]
Present: JamesNurthen, CBAveritt, IanPouncey, LJWatson, matt_king, JaeunJemmaKu, Michiel_Bijl
18:18:45 [cpandhi]
MCK: figure out online social space, personally i can help or just observe
18:18:45 [jamesn]
present+ AnnAbbott Birkir Charu JonGunderson
18:18:49 [jamesn]
zakim, who is on the call?
18:18:49 [Zakim]
Present: JamesNurthen, CBAveritt, IanPouncey, LJWatson, matt_king, JaeunJemmaKu, Michiel_Bijl, AnnAbbott, Birkir, Charu, JonGunderson
18:19:26 [cpandhi]
MCK: Screen reader suite
18:19:48 [cpandhi]
James: put this in a solid proposal, we have a room for Sat
18:20:51 [jamesn]
s/James: put/Ian: put/
18:21:16 [cpandhi]
Birkir: patterns by AT vendors
18:21:38 [cpandhi]
James: we calling user not identified
18:22:14 [cpandhi]
James: Bryan thank you
18:22:14 [jamesn]
present+ Bryan
18:22:45 [cpandhi]
Jakim,next item
18:22:52 [jamesn]
zakim, next item
18:22:52 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Landmark guidance review" taken up [from jamesn]
18:23:58 [cpandhi]
MCK: on the landmark Jon had specific questions we need to address, lot of feedback, lets see if we can get done with 15 or 20 minutes
18:25:07 [cpandhi]
MCK: lets start with document roles, i have opinion on application and document roles, both mean entire web page
18:26:00 [cpandhi]
MG: when the spec is talking about document and application roles, it can have other roles
18:26:22 [cpandhi]
MCK: if we replace the roles with web page it will be more clear
18:26:37 [cpandhi]
MB: not clear
18:26:51 [cpandhi]
MCK: who can paste the note in the chat
18:27:03 [cpandhi]
MG: note or the normative part
18:27:08 [jamesn]
Banner says : "Within any document or application, the author SHOULD mark no more than one element with the banner role."
18:27:20 [jamesn]
18:27:20 [jamesn]
Because document and application elements can be nested in the DOM, they may have multiple banner elements as DOM descendants, assuming each of those is associated with different document nodes, either by a DOM nesting (e.g., document within document) or by use of the aria-owns attribute.
18:27:26 [cpandhi]
MG:It also has a note
18:28:41 [cpandhi]
James: if you change this to web page how it is different?
18:29:08 [cpandhi]
MCK: it says within any document or application
18:29:50 [cpandhi]
MCK: document role does not have any use outside of page
18:31:28 [cpandhi]
James: the document role explicitly used on the body role
18:31:53 [cpandhi]
MCK: you mean the browser does that
18:32:53 [cpandhi]
Ann: on pages with iframe, banner maps to header and same can be said for footer
18:35:16 [cpandhi]
MCK: common across in Facebook, you have banner and then inside the page you have different roles, idea is there is Facebook banner present and different parts in the page consistently present that provide information of different componants
18:35:50 [cpandhi]
MCK: done some experiments and have been very successful, site within a site
18:36:11 [cpandhi]
Ann: are you making a case for multiple banners?
18:36:56 [cpandhi]
MCK: Most applications are not children but the banner and titling is not contained in the blue bar
18:37:07 [cpandhi]
Ann: it not a child
18:37:20 [cpandhi]
MCK: it is not a nested region
18:37:38 [cpandhi]
MCK: there might be something in between
18:37:57 [MichielBijl]
18:38:46 [mck]
18:38:57 [cpandhi]
MCk: we don't have to dive deep, we need to consider real world practice
18:39:37 [cpandhi]
MB: i am not familiar with Facebook, can you actually have a website within a website, sounds wierd
18:39:41 [LJWatson]
18:39:53 [cpandhi]
MCK: site within a site
18:41:46 [cpandhi]
MCK: The main content is the feed, on the left is complimentary content for that musician
18:42:32 [cpandhi]
MCK: in the main you have the feed which changes and the complimentary stays same
18:43:04 [cpandhi]
MCK: You can have feeds, styles, members, different parts of groups
18:43:35 [cpandhi]
MCK: banner content is important
18:43:41 [Birkir]
... sounds like the Facebook example has a whole webpage embedded withint the webpage, but there is no landmark role fit for that purpose.
18:44:14 [cpandhi]
MCK: h1 header cannot be complimentary as it names the main content
18:45:39 [cpandhi]
MG: information on different sections are tabs, then header can be just header in the main that contains the name and followers could be aside
18:46:05 [cpandhi]
MB: with a new feed role
18:46:23 [cpandhi]
Ann: would that be a question for the ARIA call?
18:46:56 [cpandhi]
MCK: specific example, could be publicly visible
18:47:05 [MichielBijl]
ack me
18:48:39 [mck]
18:48:47 [cpandhi]
LJWatson: if we use header and footer element in the main they may not mapped
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18:50:24 [cpandhi]
MCK: Talking about an example page from face book., one page is not labelled, second is labelled, immediately following is complementary not labelled and then there is the main which has the feed
18:50:45 [cpandhi]
MG: there is only one role of banner
18:51:05 [cpandhi]
MG: Beat children is the banner
18:51:48 [cpandhi]
MCK: what are you looking at it with, if there is only one banner,
18:52:07 [cpandhi]
MG: looking in Chrome
18:52:20 [cpandhi]
MCK: maybe you have to be logged in
18:52:32 [cpandhi]
Ann: i can see 2 banners
18:52:45 [cpandhi]
MG: in explorer i see 2 banners
18:53:08 [cpandhi]
MCK: when logged in you see 2 banners if not you see one
18:53:55 [cpandhi]
MCK: in this case you have the cover photo and the title, the like button and more options and more tabs
18:54:28 [jamesn]
18:54:30 [cpandhi]
MCK: following the banner is a long complimentary aside, followed by news feed
18:54:37 [jamesn]
18:54:46 [cpandhi]
MCK: if you go to about, the main content changes
18:55:05 [jamesn]
q+ to say it seems to me there should be a document role around everything then you could have a banner and a main in it
18:55:31 [cpandhi]
MCK: have a hard time to come up with a different role then banner as this is a key part of the beat experience
18:55:32 [jamesn]
18:55:37 [mck]
18:55:44 [jamesn]
ack LJ
18:55:47 [jamesn]
ack me
18:55:47 [Zakim]
jamesn, you wanted to say it seems to me there should be a document role around everything then you could have a banner and a main in it
18:56:01 [LJWatson]
ack e
18:56:47 [cpandhi]
James: You can solve this with what we have, we can have a banner, then you can have a document and then a banner and other roles in it, why we can not call it a document
18:57:11 [cpandhi]
MG: does the document role have any implications?
18:57:27 [cpandhi]
MCK: calling it a document is confusing to me
18:57:43 [MichielBijl]
18:59:12 [cpandhi]
MCK: this is a common pattern, example the Apple app store, there is information on different apps and in the main you have the content for the main content
18:59:28 [cpandhi]
Ann: why would the children theater be main?
18:59:55 [Birkir]
For examples where you have a webpage within a webpage, or section of the webpage with closely related content that does not fall under ARIA I have used the region role.
18:59:58 [cpandhi]
MCK: it is not the main content, on the timeline the news is the main content
19:00:21 [cpandhi]
Brian: we could use role of region, how is this different
19:01:03 [cpandhi]
MCK: agree, only that region is not descriptive, you need another word like title or banner, what would you name that region
19:01:34 [cpandhi]
Brian: you do not have to identify the region and have a label
19:02:13 [cpandhi]
MCK: i have use aria region breadcrumbs
19:02:52 [cpandhi]
MCK: you can add layers to this, but you can use role of region, are the ideas better?
19:03:55 [cpandhi]
LJWatson: cannot think of a single use case, other reason is lot of extra navigation for an AT user
19:04:00 [jamesn]
+1 to Leonie
19:04:10 [MichielBijl]
19:04:42 [cpandhi]
LJWatson, if you take an banner inside the main then we have a way to navigate easily
19:04:58 [cpandhi]
MCK: asking what is the best solution
19:05:35 [cpandhi]
LJWatson: i do not like the appearance of banner anywhere other then the top on the page
19:06:38 [cpandhi]
LJWatson: if you have multiple banner, it is difficult to parse, commenting on a specific page implementation, we should look at many pages
19:07:10 [cpandhi]
LJWatson: opening up a pathway to confusion for developers
19:07:13 [MichielBijl]
+1 to that
19:07:35 [cpandhi]
Brian: we have nothing to map
19:09:46 [cpandhi]
MCK: we don't tell folks to use multiple complimentary and aside, if you explain the developer what content goes in what landmark, h1 and h2 are not always the first thing in the content
19:10:09 [cpandhi]
LJWatson: what kind of element would be the parent for banner?
19:10:31 [cpandhi]
MCK: every element is the first child
19:11:03 [cpandhi]
LJWatson, whats the parent element in your case
19:11:33 [cpandhi]
LJWatson: there is no other landmark to get to it
19:11:36 [mck]
19:12:05 [cpandhi]
MCK: we went too far on thi, need to have offline discussion with a few
19:13:10 [cpandhi]
MCK: what we are really saying is that there should be only one banner in a page, then we consider iframe that can be considered a separate page, screen reader users find that annoying
19:13:41 [cpandhi]
MCK: did we answer the question does the document really mean a page or document role
19:13:57 [jamesn]
+1 to that
19:13:59 [cpandhi]
Ann: in FF the document role on the body
19:14:28 [cpandhi]
MCK: we recently put new text for document role
19:14:51 [cpandhi]
Brian: document role is not a landmark
19:15:24 [cpandhi]
Ann: reads the new defination
19:15:36 [MichielBijl]
19:17:23 [annabbott]
ARIA 1.1 Spec > role=document
19:17:29 [annabbott]
An element containing content that assistive technology users may want to browse in a reading mode.
19:17:30 [annabbott]
When user agent focus moves to an element assigned the role of document, assistive technologies having a reading mode for browsing static content MAY switch to that reading mode and intercept standard input events, such as Up or Down arrow keyboard events, to control the reading cursor.
19:17:32 [annabbott]
Because assistive technologies that have a reading mode default to that mode for all elements except for those with either a widget or application role, the only circumstance where the document role is useful for changing assistive technology behavior is when the element with role document is a focusable child element of a widget or application. For example, given an application element...
19:17:33 [annabbott]
...which contains some static rich text, the author can apply role document to the element containing the text and give it a tabindex of 0. When a screen reader user presses the Tab key and places focus on the document element, the user will be able to read the text with the screen reader's reading cursor.
19:19:04 [cpandhi]
MCK: is that paragraph describes you just said Brian, by default everything is document, never seen a case when the document role is in the body of the element, i think when we want to limit something to a page
19:19:18 [cpandhi]
Ann: that might need a change to the spec
19:19:28 [cpandhi]
MCK: i will take an action
19:19:45 [cpandhi]
Ann: i will tell that was the outcome was
19:20:24 [mck]
ACTION matt_king to propose new text for landmark regions that restrict scope based on document and application roles
19:20:24 [trackbot]
Error finding 'matt_king'. You can review and register nicknames at <>.
19:21:24 [mck]
ACTION Matt to propose new text for landmark regions that restrict scope based on document and application roles
19:21:24 [trackbot]
'Matt' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., mgarrish, mking3).
19:21:53 [mck]
ACTION mking3 to propose new text for landmark regions that restrict scope based on document and application roles
19:21:53 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2014 - Propose new text for landmark regions that restrict scope based on document and application roles [on Matthew King - due 2016-02-15].
19:22:18 [MichielBijl]
ACTION mking test
19:22:18 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2015 - Test [on Matthew King - due 2016-02-15].
19:23:38 [cpandhi]
MCK: We did not answered all the questions
19:23:51 [cpandhi]
MCK: we answered the banner question
19:25:05 [cpandhi]
MCK: Ann it will be helpful you look for Leoni's note she had good feedback
19:25:18 [MichielBijl]
Link to Lemony's comments:
19:25:26 [MichielBijl]
19:26:05 [cpandhi]
MB: agree with the comments, i have not provided my own comments, should discuss her feedback is normally very good
19:26:28 [cpandhi]
MCK: should we have a separate section for landmarks
19:26:34 [cpandhi]
Ann: we should
19:26:34 [MichielBijl]
19:27:25 [cpandhi]
James: users of lamdmarks are different from users of widgets
19:28:03 [cpandhi]
James: if we put in the same section , people will keep scrolling and get confused
19:29:23 [cpandhi]
MB: talking about the title of the sections, in the document outline for design patterns is confusing, make more sense to separate landmarks roles
19:30:03 [cpandhi]
Ann: design patterns: landmark roles and design patterns: widgets
19:31:04 [cpandhi]
MCK, what John and Ann are writing more of a user guide methodology because you can;t directly implement whats there
19:31:34 [cpandhi]
Ann we are past the time
19:32:34 [mck]
rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate mck
19:33:18 [jemma]
rrsagent, make log world
19:33:49 [mck]
zakim, bye
19:33:49 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been JamesNurthen, CBAveritt, IanPouncey, LJWatson, matt_king, JaeunJemmaKu, Michiel_Bijl, AnnAbbott, Birkir, Charu, JonGunderson,
19:33:49 [Zakim]
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19:33:52 [Zakim]
... Bryan
19:34:00 [mck]
rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate mck
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19:36:56 [jemma]
zakim, excuse us
20:09:18 [jamesn]
zakim, who's your daddy?
20:09:42 [jamesn]
ah - zakim is gone
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21:11:35 [MichielBijl]
Should I sent that to
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21:22:45 [jongund]
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21:32:49 [annabbott]
The use of landmarks roles support keyboard navigation to the structure of a web page for screen reader users.
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21:33:19 [annabbott]
The use of landmarks roles support keyboard navigation to the structure of a web page for screen reader users.
21:36:11 [annabbott]
Landmarks provide a powerful way to identify the organization and structure of web pages within websites and web applications.
21:40:45 [jongund]
Landmarks provide a powerful way to identify the organization and structure of web pages within websites and web applications.
21:40:46 [jongund]
This section is intended to assist designers, developers and quality assurance staff in defining and understanding the importance of logical, usable, and accessible layout for assistive technologies
21:40:48 [jongund]
using HTML5 sectioning elements and ARIA landmark roles.
21:40:49 [jongund]
The structural information conveyed visually to users should be represented programmatically in the markup using landmark roles.
21:40:51 [jongund]
The use of landmarks roles support keyboard navigation to the structure of a web page for screen reader users and can be used as targets for author supplied "skip Links" and browser extensions for enhanced keyboard navigation.