15:43:11 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #annotation
15:43:11 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/02/05-annotation-irc
15:43:18 <azaroth> trackbot, start meeting
15:43:20 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:43:22 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2666
15:43:22 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
15:43:23 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Annotation Working Group Teleconference
15:43:23 <trackbot> Date: 05 February 2016
15:44:13 <azaroth> azaroth has changed the topic to: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2016Feb/0004.html
15:44:22 <azaroth> Present+ Rob_Sanderson
15:44:26 <azaroth> Chair: Rob_Sanderson
15:45:15 <azaroth> Regrets+ Frederick_Hirsch, Dan_Whaley, Jon_Udell, Nick_Stenning, Doug_Schepers
15:45:34 <azaroth> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Minutes of the previous call are approved: https://www.w3.org/2016/01/27-annotation-minutes.html
15:56:31 <azaroth> TOPIC: Scribe selection, Agenda Review, Announcements?
15:58:12 <ivan> Regrets: Doug_Schepers,  Dan_Whaley, Jon_Udell, Nick_Stenning
15:58:33 <azaroth> Regrets+ Frederick_Hirsch, Dan_Whaley, Jon_Udell, Nick_Stenning, Doug_Schepers
16:00:01 <PaoloCiccarese> PaoloCiccarese has joined #annotation
16:00:04 <azaroth> Regrets: Frederick_Hirsch, Dan_Whaley, Jon_Udell, Nick_Stenning, Doug_Schepers
16:01:23 <TimCole> TimCole has joined #annotation
16:01:45 <bjdmeest> bjdmeest has joined #annotation
16:02:08 <azaroth> Scribe: Paolo
16:02:13 <azaroth> Scribenick: PaoloCiccarese
16:02:48 <PaoloCiccarese> Present+ Paolo_Ciccarese
16:02:50 <takeshi> takeshi has joined #annotation
16:02:59 <TimCole> Present+ Tim_Cole
16:03:40 <ivan> Present+ Ivan
16:03:46 <takeshi> Present+ Takeshi_Kanai
16:04:19 <azaroth> TOPIC: Scribe selection, Agenda Review, Announcements?
16:04:44 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2016Feb/0004.html
16:05:29 <ivan> q+
16:05:39 <PaoloCiccarese> Announcement: Paolo left and rejoin as an Invited Expert (change of status)
16:05:47 <azaroth> ack ivan
16:06:12 <PaoloCiccarese> Ivan: relevant for this group (major users) IDPF published first draft of EPUB 3.1
16:06:28 <PaoloCiccarese> ... group that is a major user
16:06:50 <PaoloCiccarese> ... IDPF waiting for a version of the model they can refer to to replace the Community Group draft
16:07:23 <azaroth> TOPIC: Minutes Approval
16:07:30 <PaoloCiccarese> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Minutes of the previous call are approved: https://www.w3.org/2016/01/27-annotation-minutes.html
16:08:11 <PaoloCiccarese> RESOLUTION: Minutes of the previous call are approved: https://www.w3.org/2016/01/27-annotation-minutes.html
16:08:20 <azaroth> TOPIC: F2F Logistics
16:08:46 <PaoloCiccarese> Rob: At the end of the call last week a Wikipage has been created for working at the Agenda
16:09:00 <azaroth> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/73180/anno-f2f-berlin-2016/
16:09:00 <PaoloCiccarese> .... and a poll for the attandance
16:09:14 <PaoloCiccarese> ... to know who is going to be at the meeting
16:09:38 <PaoloCiccarese> Rob: any further announcements about F2F?
16:09:58 <azaroth> TOPIC:  Issues
16:10:14 <azaroth> TOPIC:  #117 - renderedVia
16:10:23 <PaoloCiccarese> Issue: https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/117
16:10:23 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-27 - Https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/117.  Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/annotation/track/issues/27/edit>.
16:10:23 <azaroth> https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/117
16:11:55 <PaoloCiccarese> Benjamin: do we have enough to get to a conclusion?
16:12:03 <PaoloCiccarese> Rob: Can you summarize?
16:12:22 <PaoloCiccarese> Benjamin: the objective is to include information on how the document was rendered
16:12:45 <PaoloCiccarese> ... in hypothes.is some were rendered in PDF or HTML and so on that have different representations
16:13:00 <PaoloCiccarese> ... annotation in the browser has little knowledge of the PDF features
16:13:16 <PaoloCiccarese> ... HTML pointers and XPath would do the selection
16:13:43 <PaoloCiccarese> ... knowing the original source format would help with optimizing the selectors usage
16:14:22 <PaoloCiccarese> Rob: add renderVia property with SoftwareAgent as range
16:14:31 <ivan> q+
16:14:49 <PaoloCiccarese> ... with softwareVersion for the version of the PDF viewer for example
16:14:53 <azaroth> ack ivan
16:15:20 <takeshi> q+
16:15:38 <PaoloCiccarese> Ivan: no problem with the idea but worried about "do we want to set the schema.org property as required vocabulary? Isn't better to keep that open for using other vocabularies?"
16:15:50 <PaoloCiccarese> ... it seems it goes beyond our scope as there are other vocabularies
16:15:58 <PaoloCiccarese> ... that can be used for this
16:16:17 <TimCole> q+
16:16:24 <PaoloCiccarese> Rob: Banjamin how critical is softwareVersion in respect to the other properties?
16:17:01 <PaoloCiccarese> Benjamin: don't think i it is a deal breaker, we can switch back to another vocabulary such as DC
16:17:10 <PaoloCiccarese> .... schema.org seemed clearer in the definition
16:17:30 <PaoloCiccarese> Ivan: I am ok to put in the document that schema.org is preferred but not required
16:18:00 <PaoloCiccarese> ... I would not block this feature either if everybody thinks it is needed
16:18:03 <PaoloCiccarese> q+
16:18:05 <bjdmeest> bjdmeest has joined #annotation
16:18:08 <azaroth> ack PaoloCiccarese
16:18:16 <azaroth> ack takeshi
16:18:19 <azaroth> q+ PaoloCiccarese
16:18:47 <PaoloCiccarese> takeshi: what is the expected behavior when the client finds these properties?
16:19:00 <PaoloCiccarese> ... should the software be opening that specific software for rendering?
16:19:13 <PaoloCiccarese> Benjamin: it is not expected, but if you have access you could
16:19:26 <PaoloCiccarese> ... it is more to keep historical info of what happened
16:19:49 <PaoloCiccarese> ... not a requirement for pushing to retrieve the right viewer
16:20:02 <PaoloCiccarese> ... more for using the proper selectors
16:20:18 <azaroth> ack TimCole
16:20:18 <PaoloCiccarese> ... and optimizing the selectors usage
16:20:39 <azaroth> +1 to MAY
16:20:41 <bigbluehat> yes. renderedVia would be entirely optional
16:20:43 <PaoloCiccarese> TimCole: renderVia I would assume is optional
16:21:37 <PaoloCiccarese> .... should be put as "this is how you would do it not because it is the only way that you can do it but more it is serving this use case better"
16:22:01 <PaoloCiccarese> ... has to be optional and a non normative approach
16:22:09 <PaoloCiccarese> .... not a hard requirement
16:22:20 <bigbluehat> this originating email has more of the backstory and thinking (and the emphasis on it being optional) https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2015Nov/0226.html
16:22:21 <PaoloCiccarese> ... to provide guidance
16:22:33 <azaroth> q?
16:22:36 <azaroth> ack PaoloCiccarese
16:22:41 <azaroth> scribenick: azaroth
16:23:12 <azaroth> PaoloCiccarese: I think we've gotten to something weird things, if I understand, it's only about the rendering. I can load a PDF in my pdf.js viewer
16:23:32 <azaroth> ... I see the PDF rendered as HTML.  I annotate it, and I know the doc is a PDF, but that it was rendered via PDF.js
16:23:52 <azaroth> ... rather than some other system that displays PDFs and understands the encoding structure, so produces different HTML, and thus different actors
16:24:28 <azaroth> bigbluehat: Yes, they create HTML representations, and selectors could be generic for PDF like a text range or whatever, but to use renderedVia would be to use a DOM based selector as an optimization
16:24:44 <azaroth> ... Then you can more quickly process those selectors, or try them first
16:24:59 <azaroth> ... there's readium.js, epub.js and they have drastically different dom representations
16:25:14 <azaroth> ... would be a waste of time to use the selectors in a rendering engine they weren't created against
16:25:19 <azaroth> ... so just an optimization
16:25:38 <azaroth> PaoloCiccarese: I wonder if I write an application, then I know what I can understand. If I see something I don't understand, i'll ignore it
16:26:10 <azaroth> bigbluehat: There was a similar assumption at hypothes.is.  You can't tell without looking at the URL and hoping .pdf is a PDF, which it isn't always
16:26:48 <azaroth> ... without the context of knowing the client's rendering engine, you wouldn't know what to do. Also, the DOM structure would change a lot with different versions of pdf.js
16:27:00 <azaroth> ... if we had version numbers, then you could do more optimizations
16:27:14 <azaroth> ... the closed world assumption breaks across versions, so better to record the information at the time
16:27:31 <azaroth> ... As much information, if optional, as possible would be better for people in the future
16:27:44 <azaroth> PaoloCiccarese: That last is convincing for me. the HTML is really scrambled.
16:28:09 <azaroth> ... To rephrase then, as an implementer, if I access the same document and open the HTML version, and have a separate URL for a PDF of the same content, that's not in scope for this
16:28:26 <azaroth> ... the scope here is a renderer in the browser
16:28:31 <bigbluehat> here's an example from the hypothes.is API https://hypothes.is/api/annotations/AVKyP2vKvTW_3w8Lyvo1
16:28:32 <azaroth> scribenick: PaoloCiccarese
16:28:35 <bigbluehat> recent. like today
16:29:37 <PaoloCiccarese> azaroth: Are we happy with non normative definition of renderVIa, do we need to keep the range open?
16:29:45 <PaoloCiccarese> ... what else could be the range?
16:30:10 <PaoloCiccarese> TimCole: A community might use something different
16:30:38 <PaoloCiccarese> azaroth: an example that include SoftwareAgaent but make sure the range is open
16:30:50 <bigbluehat> works for me
16:31:08 <azaroth> PROPOSAL: Add oa:renderedVia, with domain SpecificResource, and no defined Range. Examples would use prov:SoftwareAgent, as per generator
16:31:15 <TimCole> +1
16:31:18 <ivan> +1
16:31:20 <azaroth> +1
16:31:24 <bigbluehat> +1
16:31:28 <takeshi> +1
16:31:32 <PaoloCiccarese> +1
16:31:45 <ivan> rrsagent, pointer?
16:31:45 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2016/02/05-annotation-irc#T16-31-45
16:31:47 <PaoloCiccarese> RESOLUTION: Add oa:renderedVia, with domain SpecificResource, and no defined Range. Examples would use prov:SoftwareAgent, as per generator
16:32:12 <azaroth> TOPIC: https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/133
16:32:16 <PaoloCiccarese> Ivan: I assume we will leave the issue open for editorial process
16:32:30 <PaoloCiccarese> https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/133
16:32:52 <PaoloCiccarese> azaroth: What we can normatively reference
16:33:29 <PaoloCiccarese> .... my proposal is to put  anon normative space to the list
16:33:55 <PaoloCiccarese> Ivan: not sure
16:34:12 <PaoloCiccarese> azaroth: we can put it in the spacs and look for feedback
16:34:40 <PaoloCiccarese> Ivan: what is exactly the proposal?
16:34:57 <PaoloCiccarese> azaroth: would be nice to have a reference to the list but where to put such reference?
16:35:14 <PaoloCiccarese> ... probably easier to have the link in the document rather then the end of it
16:35:21 <PaoloCiccarese> ... for readers
16:35:45 <ivan> https://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/media-types.xhtml ?
16:36:04 <PaoloCiccarese> Ivan: is the proposal to refer to the list of media-types?
16:36:05 <bigbluehat> works for me.
16:36:13 <PaoloCiccarese> ... we can try that
16:36:22 <PaoloCiccarese> ... I agree
16:36:45 <PaoloCiccarese> azaroth: any disagrememnt to add the link to the media-types?
16:37:06 <azaroth> PROPOSAL: Refer to https://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/media-types.xhtml in the main body of the model and vocabulary specifications
16:37:09 <ivan> +1
16:37:11 <azaroth> +1
16:37:14 <TimCole> +1
16:37:14 <bjdmeest> +1
16:37:18 <PaoloCiccarese> +1
16:37:19 <tantek> tantek has joined #annotation
16:37:42 <PaoloCiccarese> RESOLUTION: Refer to https://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/media-types.xhtml in the main body of the model and vocabulary specifications
16:37:49 <bigbluehat> +1
16:37:50 <bigbluehat> (sorry)
16:37:50 <ivan> rrsagent, pointer?
16:37:50 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2016/02/05-annotation-irc#T16-37-50-1
16:37:54 <azaroth> TOPIC: https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/134
16:37:57 <bigbluehat> s/(sorry)/
16:38:06 <bigbluehat> s/(sorry)//
16:38:36 <azaroth> http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry/language-subtag-registry
16:38:40 <PaoloCiccarese> azaroth: there is also a registry of language tags at IANA
16:38:51 <PaoloCiccarese> ... list of languages
16:39:11 <takeshi> q+
16:39:17 <azaroth> ack takeshi
16:39:48 <PaoloCiccarese> takeshi: I think that the JSON-LD covers sub-language as well? en_US for example
16:39:52 <bigbluehat> agree with takeshi
16:39:57 <PaoloCiccarese> Ivan: that is correct
16:39:58 <azaroth> +1 to takeshi
16:40:25 <PaoloCiccarese> ... then what we could do is to refer to the I18N reference
16:40:32 <ivan> http://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/
16:40:56 <PaoloCiccarese> ... it is like saying see that for further info
16:41:44 <azaroth> PROPOSAL: Refer to http://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/ informatively regarding languages
16:41:55 <PaoloCiccarese> +1
16:41:59 <bigbluehat> +1
16:42:00 <ivan> +1
16:42:02 <takeshi> +1
16:42:04 <azaroth> PROPOSAL: Refer to http://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/ informatively regarding languages and verify with I18N review
16:42:09 <TimCole> +1
16:42:10 <azaroth> +1
16:42:16 <ivan> +1
16:42:38 <PaoloCiccarese> RESOLUTION: Refer to http://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/ informatively regarding languages and verify with I18N review
16:42:38 <ivan> rrsagent, pointer?
16:42:38 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2016/02/05-annotation-irc#T16-42-38-1
16:42:44 <azaroth> TOPIC: https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/141
16:43:00 <PaoloCiccarese> azaroth: Issues around dates
16:43:44 <PaoloCiccarese> Ivan: the point is that the model is now requires to fill in the full date-time so I need to make up times
16:44:00 <PaoloCiccarese> .... we could be less precise and allow for union of different types
16:44:12 <PaoloCiccarese> ... or we can define a union ourself (more complicated)
16:44:38 <ivan> DCMI definition: dcterms:W3CDTF
16:44:45 <PaoloCiccarese> ... Dublin Core uses
16:44:53 <ivan> Formal definition is here: http://dublincore.org/documents/dcmi-terms/#terms-W3CDTF
16:44:57 <PaoloCiccarese> ... dcterms:W3CDTF
16:45:12 <PaoloCiccarese> ... covers the different time/dates formats
16:45:22 <PaoloCiccarese> ... we could use that as a DataType
16:45:35 <PaoloCiccarese> ... we can put dates without time
16:45:42 <ivan> Examples for allowed forms: https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/141#issuecomment-174576427
16:46:03 <TimCole> q+
16:46:08 <azaroth> ack TimCole
16:46:09 <PaoloCiccarese> azaroth: do we use this for all dates in the model?
16:46:40 <PaoloCiccarese> TimCole: inclined to agree but it will make an annotation qualified by just the year as compliant
16:47:17 <PaoloCiccarese> Ivan: the dates will need to be parsed by software and understood, implementation more complex
16:47:29 <PaoloCiccarese> TimCole: less precise filtering
16:47:47 <PaoloCiccarese> Ivan: I have the impression that people will produce complete datetimes anyway
16:47:58 <PaoloCiccarese> ... but if I only really need the date
16:48:02 <PaoloCiccarese> ... I could put just that
16:48:13 <PaoloCiccarese> ... without the T00:12:12
16:48:21 <PaoloCiccarese> TimCole: agree
16:48:39 <PaoloCiccarese> Ivan: by referring to that we ask the implementation to handle that
16:49:06 <PaoloCiccarese> azaroth: do we still recommand one format and allow for all the others?
16:49:38 <PaoloCiccarese> Ivan: that is less permissive than the usual libraries but it means that you can write dates with different precision
16:49:50 <PaoloCiccarese> q+
16:50:17 <PaoloCiccarese> azaroth: given annotation will be mostly created by machines... precise about tiem
16:50:25 <azaroth> ack PaoloCiccarese
16:50:32 <PaoloCiccarese> ... so we recoommend to be precise down to seconds and allow for the other
16:52:15 <PaoloCiccarese> Ivan: I would probably store the format that matches the input
16:52:32 <PaoloCiccarese> .... so I turned into a date but keep the original precision/format
16:54:25 <PaoloCiccarese> Ivan: I would propose we adopt this but we explicitly say in the document as a feature at risk saying that implementations feels that is to complex to handle
16:54:31 <PaoloCiccarese> .... we might go back to use DateTime
16:54:39 <PaoloCiccarese> ... feature at risk
16:55:05 <azaroth> PROPOSAL: Adopt dc:W3CDTF as feature-at-risk, to fall back to xsd:datetime. Recommend full ISO8601 form.
16:55:25 <PaoloCiccarese> +1 (with some chills)
16:55:27 <TimCole> +1
16:55:29 <azaroth> +1
16:55:29 <ivan> +1
16:55:29 <takeshi> +1
16:55:50 <bjdmeest> +1
16:55:51 <PaoloCiccarese> RESOLUTION: Adopt dc:W3CDTF as feature-at-risk, to fall back to xsd:datetime. Recommend full ISO8601 form.
16:55:53 <ivan> rrsagent, pointer?
16:55:53 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2016/02/05-annotation-irc#T16-55-53
16:55:57 <azaroth> TOPIC: https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/143
16:56:16 <PaoloCiccarese> azaroth: do we also want to have intervals?
16:56:19 <PaoloCiccarese> q+
16:56:24 <azaroth> ack PaoloCiccarese
16:59:01 <PaoloCiccarese> Ivan: don't remember a precise use case
16:59:22 <PaoloCiccarese> azaroth: Time state is the document at this point in time
16:59:38 <PaoloCiccarese> Ivan: I could say I talk about this document between two dates
16:59:45 <PaoloCiccarese> q+
16:59:51 <azaroth> ack PaoloCiccarese
17:00:12 <PaoloCiccarese> Ivan: this is restricted to Time State
17:00:21 <PaoloCiccarese> .... not to all time sin general
17:00:26 <PaoloCiccarese> q+
17:00:49 <azaroth> ack PaoloCiccarese
17:01:18 <takeshi> q+
17:01:32 <azaroth> ack takeshi
17:02:09 <PaoloCiccarese> takeshi: Time State would work for hand writing?
17:02:33 <PaoloCiccarese> ... handwriting takes time and it is an ongoing process we could keep track of
17:02:48 <PaoloCiccarese> ... could we use those for this purpose
17:03:13 <PaoloCiccarese> Ivan: we tried to concentrate on one thing to not open it too much
17:03:20 <PaoloCiccarese> ... and becomes uncontrollable
17:03:37 <PaoloCiccarese> ... the notion of interval would apply to many thing but we should not do that
17:04:01 <PaoloCiccarese> azaroth: we can come up with a proposal and put it for next week
17:04:36 <ivan> -- adjurned
17:04:59 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:04:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/05-annotation-minutes.html ivan
17:05:41 <ivan> trackbot, end telcon
17:05:41 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
17:05:41 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Ivan, Frederick_Hirsch, Rob_Sandersion, Rob_Sanderson, Tim_Cole, Benjamin_Young, Jacob_Jett, shepazu, davis_salisbury, Paolo_Ciccarese,
17:05:44 <Zakim> ... Ben_De_Meester, Chris_Birk, TB_Dinesh, Takeshi_Kanai, Randall_Leeds, Dan_Whaley, Susan, Uskudarli, !
17:05:49 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:05:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/05-annotation-minutes.html trackbot
17:05:50 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
17:05:50 <RRSAgent> I see no action items