16:05:25 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
16:05:25 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/02/04-html-a11y-irc
16:05:27 RRSAgent, make logs world
16:05:27 Zakim has joined #html-a11y
16:05:29 Zakim, this will be 2119
16:05:29 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
16:05:30 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
16:05:30 Date: 04 February 2016
16:07:23 present+ IanPouncey
16:07:53 present+ LiamQuin
16:07:57 ScribeNick: ShaneM
16:08:04 zakim, take up item 1
16:08:04 I see nothing on the agenda
16:08:05 present+ JS
16:08:10 present+ Cynthia
16:08:18 present+ ShaneM
16:08:32 present+ MarkS
16:08:51 TOPIC: Changes to the agenda
16:08:56 None...
16:08:58 present+ Judy
16:09:03 TOPIC: Housekeeping items
16:09:21 Liam - the work statement needs an edit. The sponsoring groups need to be APA and WebPlatforms now.
16:09:25 liam: that's done
16:09:56 TOPIC: alt (text alternatives)
16:10:19 janina: we are waiting for ARIA to finish defining how we will handle extended descriptions.
16:10:26 ... that should be done by the next aria heartbeat.
16:10:59 ... There is interest in DPub, and probably here, that we circle back and provide guidance on how long an alt text should be.
16:11:05 zakim, who's on the phone?
16:11:05 Present: IanPouncey, LiamQuin, JS, Cynthia, ShaneM, MarkS, Judy
16:11:40 ... how big is too big. If we are using figcaption instead of an alt can we algorithmically figure out if it is too long to be useful.
16:11:48 q+ to comment on heuristic aspect
16:12:31 ... DPub wants to know how to give guidance on when to switch over from alt to longdesc / detailedsummary.
16:13:03 ... we got some pushback on specifying length back in the day. Is there some way to say it without seeming too strict and/or too arbitrary.
16:13:08 q?
16:13:44 Cyns: Might be able to get it added to a usability session, but I would need some help.
16:13:50 ack j
16:13:51 Judy, you wanted to comment on heuristic aspect
16:14:02 Judy: It would be useful to separate out some of the questions. It would be useful to do some usability testing.
16:14:49 ... Janina has raised the possibility that some length of "alt" where the usability factor starts sharply declining. Determine that and help guide authors.
16:15:10 ... there was some anecdotal evidence before. But some real data would be useful.
16:15:43 ... Janina also mentioned the heuristic question - depending on where the alt appears is there a way to guide authors to use a caption instead.
16:16:15 ... We did some research on this and determined that extended figure captions were not usually a good alternative to the alt text.
16:16:47 ... there were examples where the figure captions were more about the scientific methods (for example).
16:16:59 [chaals joins]
16:17:03 Present+ chaals
16:17:10 ... Another is looking display things. Examine browsers and see what is done with very long alt text.
16:17:26 janina: Liam had done some testing on this and found that the behavior was not always idea.
16:17:36 ... there was sometimes truncation of what the alt was.
16:17:37 s/ idea/ ideal/
16:18:01 ShaneM: Note that there is text about this in https://w3c.github.io/alt-techniques/#alt-restrict-overflow
16:18:21 liam: There was some truncation. Things can be done with CSS to mitigate the problems.
16:18:31 q+
16:18:42 Cyns: There was a setting in IE that toggled the setting. It is not in Edge now. Is it really an issue still?
16:19:10 liam: It can be an issue if there is some block that prevents an image displaying (firewall, unsupported format)
16:19:33 chaals: The A11Y issue is where the image is unclear and you need the text to determine what it is really about. It is too low contrast for example.
16:20:12 liam: The HTML spec forbids displaying the alt text in the same way as title text. So some content management systems duplicate the alt text in the title so it can get displayed.
16:20:19 JF has joined #html-a11y
16:20:30 ... it should be clarified in the default browser style sheet so we know what happens when alt is too long.
16:20:41 janina: it is not just screen readers that will have a11y concerns.
16:21:20 Cyns: This might be a good use for extensions. An extension that automatically displays the alt text when selected.
16:21:26 ... (a browser extension)
16:21:46 [There have been various extensions written for things like this. It's a good use case for showing how to fix the browser bugs]
16:21:47 Judy: It seems like an extension is just another hurdle.
16:22:11 Cyns: Some browser vendors feel that settings are bad. Extensions are a lot faster to get developed than getting a setting added to a browser.
16:22:36 Judy: But from a11y perspective it shouldn't be required to get an extension.
16:22:47 Cyns: Extensions are just another type of AT.
16:23:06 q?
16:23:12 q-
16:23:37 liam: an example might be an image for a symbol. and there is alt text to describe the alt text. There isn't room to show the alt text in the space for the letter. If the browser put the full text there then the display would be garbled in the event of a mathematical equation.
16:23:52 Cyns: That's why we had a setting in IE. But we had 1000 settings, and users didn't like that.
16:24:03 liam: and occasional users won't know that there is a setting.
16:24:06 Cyns: Yes.
16:24:38 janina: I will find pointers to the previous discussion we had about this. Liam please update us on the research you did and Cyns please do that usability testing.
16:24:53 q?
16:24:55 Cyns: Could you drop me an email with a couple of sentences on what we are really looking for?
16:25:19 Judy: I would like to be copied on that. I think we want to ensure the questions are asked clearly and separately instead of conflating them.
16:25:30 TOPIC: Footnotes
16:25:36 rrsagent, make minutes
16:25:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/04-html-a11y-minutes.html ShaneM
16:25:51 rrsagent, make logs public
16:25:58 ShaneM: footnotes
16:26:36 ShaneM: we did some requirements gathering and I put together a wiki page
16:26:37 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Notes
16:27:03 Q+
16:27:06 We have to ask, what kind of problem are we trying to solve. The problems are not unique to accessibility.
16:27:15 epub/dupb agree.
16:27:38 There's a connection between items in a document and this has to be made manifest in ways that are conducive to the flow of the document.
16:28:01 E.g. a region in the bottom of the screen, and references from the page showed up if they were visible
16:28:11 no consistent way to mark this up
16:28:32 "Given a good front end, the creation of annotations should be as easy, dedicated, elegant and accessible as any office product." - Robert Sanderson
16:28:50 ack JF
16:29:12 I did go to dpub meeting this morning; no changes... there's roles defined in doc-aria for footnotes, footnote, and noteref
16:29:19 but noteref mechanism is up in the air
16:29:36 I don't mind using role but doesn' solve the general problem
16:29:43 an HTML extension spec is the obvious thing to do
16:29:53 q?
16:30:12 I think there's interest but I'm not sure there's energy
16:30:25 Liam: there are probably also CSS requirements
16:31:30 Q+
16:31:51 ShaneM: some things can be done already with CSS. Some things would require scripting.
16:32:00 ack jf
16:32:06 liam: there might be enough enthusiasm in the css community for this.
16:32:13 JF: not sure about lack of energy. I know when I was at a bank this was a huge issue
16:32:26 e.g. multiple refs to the same footnote, "back to text" gets really hard
16:32:34 JF: this is a huge issue at the bank when I worked there. Multiple links to the same note and navigating back and forth is hard.
16:32:36 so could use some support from browsers
16:32:38 q?
16:33:18 ShaneM: Web Components can do pretty much anything you want; in an extension spec I'd probably do it that way as a polyfill as a proof of concept
16:33:25 q?
16:33:52 e.g. if a user put focus on an item that had a note reference it pops up and escape takes you back
16:34:45 JF: Liam mentioned publishing where they're still working on [print] rules and need to support that
16:34:52 but there's a need for a semantic structure
16:35:08 [ `*[rel~=footnote] { /* link style */ } *[role=footnote] { /* footnote style */ } … ]
16:35:25 JS: Charles, if we come up with a proposal is it likely to get implemented in browsers?
16:35:42 Charles: this is determined by talking to browser people
16:36:47 [Charles mentions the Back button]
16:37:12 q+ to discuss whether this is really a link
16:37:45 Charles: if it's a link, I can see some possibility of browser special treatment.
16:38:03 ShaneM: not getting an actional spec from dpub; it'll be us
16:38:08 s/link/typed link/
16:38:10 JS: are there enough requirements?
16:38:13 ShaneM: yes
16:38:29 I was planning to work with David McDonald on this
16:38:45 ShaneM, you wanted to discuss whether this is really a link
16:38:59 s/treatment/treatment. But if it isn't based pretty heavily on a link I doubt and browser team would really be interested./
16:39:09 ShaneM: Charles mentioned link behaviour, and that's a ay to support some of this
16:39:25 I'm not sure that's the semantic, has ot be the semantic, it's a way to implement a fn
16:39:26 q+
16:39:40 It doesn't have to be navigable to me
16:39:49 ack l
16:39:49 liam, you wanted to distinguish fn and endnote
16:41:10 ack ch
16:41:36 Liam: user should not have to actuate anything for a footnote; an endnote is different.
16:42:04 Charles: disagrees - can point people down to the bottom of the page (a small amount of work but a distraction)
16:42:34 The Web isn't the same as a piece of paper, you can have popup information, can have [expanding in-place] (details/summary)
16:43:25 References, endnotes, footnotes, the different tricks publishers use to make it easier, parentheses are another, tricks that fork people's attention.
16:44:04 We don't have exactly the same bag of tricks as publishers on the Web, can assign particular type information e.g. detail with a role that's recognised
16:44:11 and can be given special treatment
16:44:19 links, glossary, etc are other examples
16:44:35 Trying to replicate the paper experience is stupid
16:44:53 q+ to point out that whether it is stupid or not, there are requirements
16:44:55 We shold not be bound by the limitations of paper
16:45:11 ack sh
16:45:11 ShaneM, you wanted to point out that whether it is stupid or not, there are requirements
16:45:37 ShaneM: I don't disagree about dead trees on a screen, but there's a community here, people and money behind them
16:46:03 +1 to Shane
16:46:07 This isn't Bob in a garage somewhere, it's people like Wiley, it's te academic community, that's why we're here, we can't discount them just because we thing it's stupid
16:46:29 JB: +1 to ShaneM that Liam and Charles are both right
16:46:53 I didn't hear Liam saying we can't exclude the new ways but rather to be midful of some of the ways that publishing conventions have tried to address over the years
16:47:13 [I'm certainly not discounting the requirements, I am pointing out that there are limitations to what we can do in our medium by which we are bound, there are limitations in paper by which we are not, and we need to figure out what is a sensible way to translate interactions from one paradigm to another]
16:47:15 q+ to suggest that we need notes to be objects, not just offsets
16:47:30 Charles gave a great overview of digital ways, too.
16:48:03 janina, you wanted to suggest that we need notes to be objects, not just offsets
16:48:24 JS: I also think both Charles and Liam are correct. We're not giving digital publishing enough to work with and become creative in going beyong their traditional ways
16:48:38 Yes, they developed a lot of clever ways to deal with things in the page.
16:48:51 Now we have new opportunities, although they still need to support the old in the meantime.
16:49:13 We're primarily giving them, the note starts here, and not an entire object with a span - I hope that's in the requirements
16:49:30 q?
16:49:40 e.g. if footnotes are grouped or go from one to anohter and interact with back button
16:49:57 Doesn't sound like anyone is against moving forward, so need proposals
16:50:05 s/proposal/a proposal/
16:50:13 q?
16:50:21 OWP are the guys that will have to implement
16:50:37 ShaneM: I'm inclined to propose use cases and semantic markup, now let's talk about behaviours
16:50:44 JS: OK
16:50:51 we have consensus there. Thank you.
16:51:01 TOPIC: Transcripts
16:52:02 JF: There is a new task force about a cloud browser.
16:52:16 janina: Talk about that at the top of APA. Send an email around about it
16:52:38 TOPIC: AccessKey
16:52:55 chaals: I put the pieces that are around into the web platform working group.
16:53:04 That group is making an HTML spec that reflects what works.
16:53:31 The WICG is the place to go with what ought to work but doesn't yet. It cant be in the base spec until it actually works.
16:53:59 Of the access key stuff, some is for the future because it is not yet implemented. Other bits are being changed as the implementations change.
16:54:14 As to panels, there is some work being done with polyfills and socialization.
16:54:21 ... that is the obvious approach with transcript as well.
16:54:52 janina: last time around there was some contention about transcript. Is it still there?
16:55:21 chaals: depends on what you mean. There were debates about direction. People seem to have relaxed about that.
16:56:09 janina: there was a lot of technique debate before. It was all over the place.
16:56:29 JF: the last time we talked about this inseattle, but the conclusion was there was a need but no progress.
16:56:38 janina: were the people who disagreed at the meeting?
16:56:53 JF: no. MS, Google, and Mozilla were in the room. Apple was not.
16:59:26 rrsagent, make minutes
16:59:26 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/04-html-a11y-minutes.html ShaneM
16:59:30 next meeting: 18th feb
16:59:36 s/direction/theoretical statements made in HTML and whether we were consistent, rather than looking for things that work/
17:00:17 rrsagent, make minutes
17:00:17 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/04-html-a11y-minutes.html ShaneM
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