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17:30:11 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/02/04-aria-irc
17:30:13 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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17:30:15 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
17:30:15 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
17:30:16 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
17:30:16 <trackbot> Date: 04 February 2016
17:30:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
17:31:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: ARIA Working group
17:31:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
17:33:32 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
17:35:22 <mck> mck has joined #aria
17:36:24 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
17:36:41 <jamesn> present+ JamesNurthen
17:36:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:37:03 <fesch> fesch has joined #aria
17:37:31 <clown> clown has joined #aria
17:38:30 <jamesn> scribe: jamesn
17:38:52 <fesch> present+ fesch
17:39:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Jan/0179.html
17:39:25 <jamesn> TOPIC: 7 day decision policy
17:39:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/decision-policy
17:39:40 <jamesn> RS: wraps up tonight. Anyone have any objections to that
17:39:51 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:39:59 <jamesn> <silence>
17:39:59 <jamesn> </silence>
17:40:07 <jamesn> TOPIC: aria-grabbed and dropeffect
17:40:10 <jamesn> ACTION-1672?
17:40:10 <trackbot> ACTION-1672 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Mark aria-grabbed, aria-dropeffect as deprecated and provide reference definition of derprecated -- due 2016-02-03 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:40:10 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1672
17:40:21 <joanie> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action-1672/aria/aria.html#aria-dropeffect
17:40:50 <joanie> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action-1672/aria/aria.html#aria-grabbed
17:40:59 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action-1672/aria/aria.html#dfn-deprecated
17:41:18 <jamesn> RS: reads the notes from the spec
17:41:20 <jamesn> "The aria-dropeffect property is expected to be replaced by a new feature in WAI-ARIA 2.0. Authors are therefore advised to treat aria-dropeffect as deprecated."
17:41:46 <jamesn> Deprecated
17:41:46 <jamesn> A deprecated role, state, or property is one which has been outdated by newer constructs or changed circumstances, and which may be removed in future versions of the WAI-ARIA specification. User agents are encouraged to continue to support items identified as deprecated for backward compatibility.
17:42:13 <jamesn> CS: from a UA perspective it sounds like if we haven't implemeneted it yet we should probably hold off doing it
17:42:25 <clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html#ariaGrabbedTrue
17:42:26 <jamesn> RS: we are not going to try to get 2 implementations
17:42:40 <jamesn> CS: would be nice if it gave some advice to UA as well as to authors
17:42:49 <jamesn> JD: thought about that for some time
17:43:04 <jamesn> implression I got is that if it is in the spec it is meant to be implemented
17:43:21 <jamesn> I didn't like the idea of telling UA that they must implement something that is going away
17:43:49 <jamesn> if I were reading that and there was a normative statement that UA need not implement it then would question why it were in the spec
17:44:14 <jamesn> CS: when a 3rd party test suite includes it then I want to be able to say I'm not going to do that
17:44:32 <jamesn> CS: basically this feature failed - and we are taking it out becuase it didnt get uptake
17:44:40 <jamesn> RS: Bryan implemented it
17:44:41 <clown> q+ to ask if a note or something else needs to be added to Core-AAM
17:44:48 <jamesn> we got 2 implementations
17:45:12 <jamesn> CS: middle ground like this may cause trouble - would like it if more crisp
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17:46:06 <jamesn> MK: I think there are no WCAG techniques which refer to aria-grabbed and dropeffect
17:46:09 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
17:46:21 <jamesn> CS: is it required for a UA to support it to be in compliance with aria?
17:46:24 <jamesn> RS: yes
17:46:37 <jamesn> CS: for some period of time it is in this weird middle ground
17:47:02 <jamesn> JD: these properties are in the 1.0 spec - doesn't that mean you are not compliant with old aria
17:47:15 <jamesn> CS: if it is coming out then it is a waste of time to implement it
17:47:34 <jamesn> RS: ARIA 2 is a ways out - hope to do alot with the api work.
17:47:41 <jamesn> these are just a couple of properties
17:47:53 <jamesn> CS: a fairly chunky work item to actually get it to work
17:48:08 <jamesn> i could mape the properties but that is a waste of time as there is no user benefit
17:48:16 <jamesn> would be nice if it wern't this ugly story
17:48:35 <jamesn> RS: we are not going to haul it out. we need a proposal b4 we can think about replacing it
17:49:11 <jamesn> CS: it is in but it is bad.
17:49:37 <jamesn> MK: if you implement it - even once the new pattern is there then legacy implementations would still be valid.
17:50:00 <jamesn> unless there are conflicts then it is legit to support 1.1 features even after 2.0 is final
17:50:09 <jamesn> CS: this status is really complicated
17:50:24 <jamesn> MK: it doesn't eliminate the motivation to implement it
17:50:27 <jamesn> q+
17:51:09 <jamesn> CS: I won't be able to sell working on a deprecated feature
17:51:10 <clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testresults?testsuite_id=1&testcase_id=92
17:51:11 <joanie> q+ To point out that "deprecated" is not the same as "obsolete"
17:51:33 <jamesn> RS: what peole want to do is use a mark capability
17:51:51 <jamesn> when it started there was no drap/drop in the browser which was consistent
17:52:07 <jamesn> was it alligned with html5? no. that is what we plan to do in the future
17:52:26 <jamesn> we are not going to haul it out - there are people that have implented this in applications
17:52:45 <jamesn> CS: I would prefer it was there or not there - not in the weird middle state
17:52:57 <jamesn> RS: apple and others wanted it in this middle state
17:53:25 <jamesn> CS: some guidance on UA as to what to do with a deprecated feature in the spec would be helpful
17:53:30 <jamesn> have an authors should
17:53:43 <jamesn> JD: I put it in the glossary
17:54:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action-1672/aria/aria.html#dfn-deprecated
17:54:09 <jamesn> you are already not comliant with a pretty old spec
17:54:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:54:28 <jamesn> JD: deprecation is not the same as obsolete
17:54:41 <jamesn> even in 2.0 the stupid thing will be around forever
17:55:24 <joanie> q-
17:55:25 <jamesn> becuase we dont like it and we don't want authors to do it
17:55:34 <jamesn> JS: IE passed this according to the test harness
17:55:47 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:56:01 <clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testresults?testsuite_id=1&testcase_id=92
17:56:02 <jamesn> CS: my issue is with deprecated more widely
17:57:08 <jamesn> CS: I would like it to be crisper
17:57:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack clown
17:57:21 <Zakim> clown, you wanted to ask if a note or something else needs to be added to Core-AAM
17:57:29 <jamesn> ack me
17:57:45 <jamesn> RS: are people ok with the text
17:57:58 <jamesn> MK: change to a future version not ARIA 2.0
17:58:06 <jamesn> RS: are people ok with that tweak
17:59:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> Propsosal: To accept Joanie’s changes regarding the deprecation notes on aria-grabbed and aria-dropeffect with the exception that it refer to a future version of WAI-ARIA and not specifically 2.0
17:59:37 <clown> +1
17:59:42 <joanie> +1
17:59:47 <jamesn> +1
17:59:53 <fesch> +1
18:00:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: Accept Joanie’s changes regarding the deprecation notes on aria-grabbed and aria-dropeffect with the exception that it refer to a future version of WAI-ARIA and not specifically 2.0
18:00:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgetn, draft minutes
18:00:33 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
18:00:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/04-aria-minutes.html jamesn
18:00:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:00:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/04-aria-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger
18:00:55 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
18:01:43 <jamesn> TOPIC: Combobox
18:01:47 <jamesn> ACTION-1490?
18:01:47 <trackbot> ACTION-1490 -- Matthew King to Propose spec text edit for issue-610: comboboxes should allow complex children elements -- due 2016-02-03 -- OPEN
18:01:47 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1490
18:01:48 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1490
18:02:01 <jamesn> RS: is there a branch?
18:02:20 <jamesn> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/mck-action1490/aria/aria.html
18:02:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/mck-action1490/aria/aria.html#combobox
18:03:15 <jamesn> MK: 10 changes
18:03:40 <jamesn> Objectives:
18:03:40 <jamesn> 1. Allow combobox to popup grid, tree, and dialog in addition to listbox.
18:03:40 <jamesn> 2. Allow aria-controls so screen reader users can see a rendering of the popup in reading mode.
18:03:40 <jamesn> 3. Remove ambiguities from the spec to improve understanding and simplify authoring.
18:03:42 <jamesn> 4. Do it all without breaking any existing implementations.
18:04:20 <joanie> q+ To ask about dialog use case
18:04:24 <jamesn> MK: the impact is lightweight as most of this already works
18:04:45 <jamesn> important that screenreaders recognise aria-controls if we go that way
18:05:03 <jamesn> so escape works correctly to return focus
18:05:15 <jamesn> that is the only thing that doesn't work
18:05:19 <joanie> q-
18:05:25 <jamesn> q+ to explain dialog
18:05:53 <jamesn> MK: dialog is for example a date picker where there is a grid - and in addition to the grid have buttons next year previous year
18:06:37 <jamesn> JN: also have simple and advanced search buttons in a dialog
18:06:51 <jamesn> MK: right now use aria-owns to own the popup element
18:07:00 <jamesn> CS: controls makes my life much easier too
18:07:09 <jamesn> CS: controls works a lot better here
18:07:59 <jamesn> MK: 2 major problems for screen readers with owns.... have to distinguish the combo box from its children to extract the value. When in the reading mode the popup disaappears as you cant fit a grid in a listbox
18:08:19 <jamesn> MK: need them to be next to each other in the DOM so the "grid" appears next in the reading order
18:08:36 <jamesn> RS: have 4 notes in a row.... can we collapse them
18:08:46 <jamesn> MK: I see little relevance in note 4
18:08:57 <jamesn> RS: I would support deleting that
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18:10:27 <jamesn> RS: combobox - do we need an implicit orientation?
18:10:42 <jamesn> MK: the implicit orientation of listbox might be useful
18:10:47 <jamesn> clown: why for a listbox?
18:10:59 <jamesn> MK: so the arrow key is left/right or up down
18:11:19 <jamesn> clown: combo uses left/right for the edit field
18:11:27 <jamesn> MK: focus stays in the edit field
18:11:46 <jamesn> RS: not sure orientation is important on a combo box
18:12:00 <jamesn> MK: should pull out the orientation too
18:12:16 <jamesn> clown: default value is specified
18:12:34 <jamesn> JN: could it just be inheritance?
18:12:58 <jamesn> MK: changed combobox superclass to input not select
18:13:21 <jamesn> MK: in 1.0 there was a required owned element of textbox but the sample code didnt have that
18:13:40 <jamesn> RS: comboboxes and menus are the worst things to implement
18:14:01 <jamesn> BG: are you saying putting role combobox on an input is invalid?
18:14:03 <jamesn> MK: no
18:14:15 <jamesn> JUST about the example in the spec
18:14:19 <jamesn> s/JUST/just/
18:14:40 <jamesn> RS: like the fact it is expanded to more use cases
18:15:00 <jamesn> i think orientation is irrelevant in this case so can take it off
18:15:07 <jamesn> RS: collapse the others
18:15:13 <jamesn> objections?
18:15:35 <jamesn> MK: expanded can move into the paragraph about expanded
18:15:50 <jamesn> take class note off it - as it is normative
18:16:02 <jamesn> RS: need to remove the default orientation of vertical
18:16:19 <jamesn> clown: have a problem with the aria-owns change
18:16:25 <jamesn> want it the way it was before
18:16:40 <jamesn> MK: that is problematic that owns doesn't work for a combo box
18:17:02 <jamesn> clown: who would own the list in the tree?
18:17:33 <jamesn> MK: would encounter the listbox
18:17:56 <jamesn> clown: comboboxes have existed on the desktop. the parent child relationship on the desktop is well defined
18:18:10 <jamesn> we are now saying that on the web these things are different
18:18:18 <jamesn> MK: don't have the DOM on the desktop
18:18:27 <jamesn> CS: desktop combo boxes are really different
18:18:39 <jamesn> desktop ones can only have a limited number of things
18:19:03 <jamesn> RS: if have a text field with role combobox - if use owns then have to have a child of a text box
18:19:24 <jamesn> RS: almost like you have to do one or the other - there has to be an association.
18:20:01 <jamesn> MK: said must have an association and leaves the choice to authors to use controls and owns
18:20:11 <jamesn> clown: say you may have both of these
18:20:21 <jamesn> MK: children appear inside their parents
18:20:25 <jamesn> clown: not at all
18:20:38 <jamesn> I take the parent/child relationship as a logical relationship
18:20:52 <jamesn> sometimes children appear inside their parents, sometimes they don't
18:21:27 <jamesn> MK: in a screenreader thing the parent owns the child
18:21:42 <jamesn> clown: the menu is a parent of the menu items etc.
18:21:47 <jamesn> to me this is the same hierarchy
18:21:55 <jamesn> CS: depends what your goal is
18:22:06 <jamesn> we do the owns now and it doesn't work
18:22:18 <jamesn> so long as the control is there
18:22:29 <jamesn> MK: i don't think any AT would need both
18:22:36 <jamesn> clown: how do you know?
18:23:52 <jamesn> clown: willing to bet that in the a11y API it is a parent child relationship
18:23:58 <jamesn> MK: and that is a problem
18:24:06 <jamesn> clown: why?
18:24:44 <jamesn> RS: what do you do with ORCA
18:24:53 <jamesn> clown: the popup list becomes a menu
18:25:26 <jamesn> JD: right now combo boxes are not a browse mode thing. orca presents the focus and text changes
18:25:51 <jamesn> orca's treatment of them is you shouldn't care where the combo box comes from
18:26:01 <jamesn> clown: would orca be bothered by this?
18:26:25 <jamesn> JS: independent of ARIA there are combo box type things out there. ORCA has heuristics out there for stuff
18:26:50 <jamesn> it might matter in terms of NVDA and FF - at some point there was a lot of discussion about things there
18:26:55 <joanie> s/ORCA/Orca/g
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18:27:07 <jamesn> clown: doesnt change the tree
18:27:46 <jamesn> clown: i have no objection to adding controls
18:28:30 <jamesn> MK: the AT needs to know about the relationship
18:28:35 <ShaneM> present+ ShaneM
18:28:41 <jamesn> when something is a child and the value is from the content
18:29:25 <joanie> s/JS: independent/JD: independent/
18:29:37 <jamesn> MK: when it popup up - number 1 - the popup is trigger from and by the combo box so will have the value from the relationship
18:29:43 <jamesn> RS: we have both cases covered
18:29:49 <jamesn> clown: why not both
18:29:54 <jamesn> what is the harm of both
18:30:20 <jamesn> MK: more concerned about how the screen readers render the popup in their virtual view
18:30:25 <jamesn> CS: dont really understand
18:31:02 <jamesn> BG: if you have role of combobox on an edit field and have the aria-owns is that it forces all the listbox content into the value of the edit field
18:31:08 <jamesn> CS: sounds like a bug in the screen reader
18:31:24 <jamesn> MK: that is what screen readers do with all contained elements
18:31:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:31:47 <jamesn> the DOM tree is a tree. How would you ever make the decision as to what is inside the element and what is not
18:31:48 <jamesn> q-
18:31:52 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack jamesn
18:32:29 <jamesn> BG: also a compatibility thing. some things cant support interactive child elements
18:32:55 <jamesn> MK: sounds like we should have a side tutorial as to how screen readers work
18:33:08 <jamesn> RS: dont have the VO people here
18:33:21 <jamesn> MK: VO does the same thing
18:33:39 <jamesn> they represent every child relationship as a container and you drill into it
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18:34:42 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
18:34:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/04-aria-minutes.html jamesn
18:35:34 <jamesn> CS: they are not children but they are pieces of a whole
18:35:41 <jamesn> RS: combo boxes with text fields in them...
18:36:03 <jamesn> RS: I don't have problems with Matt's wording
18:36:10 <jamesn> RS: need a vote
18:36:27 <jamesn> CS: we need controls but having both doesn't bother us
18:36:40 <jamesn> CS: what do you do with owns but leave controls off
18:36:50 <jamesn> right now it fails
18:37:18 <jamesn> RS: can anyone not live with Matt's text
18:37:27 <jamesn> clown: me - with respect to owns
18:40:20 <bgaraventa1979> can I also propose adding aria-valuetext for setting a value property association?
18:41:19 <bgaraventa1979> +q
18:42:50 <jamesn> JD: propose doing the notes as a seperate action
18:44:07 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:44:55 <joanie> action: Joanmarie to address the non-normative notes which point out implicit values
18:44:55 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2011 - Address the non-normative notes which point out implicit values [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2016-02-11].
18:45:52 <JF> Q+
18:46:40 <MichielBijl> regrets+ MichielBijl
18:46:51 <jamesn> RS: you have modified autocomplete in this.
18:46:55 <JF> Present+ JF
18:47:15 <jamesn> MK: if you look at the 1.0 text then if keep the old meanings that is one of the major things behind the confusion
18:47:31 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-autocomplete
18:47:32 <jamesn> MK: i removed 5 paragraphs
18:47:52 <jamesn> clown: the values are incomprehensible
18:48:05 <jamesn> MK: nobody knows what do to with them
18:48:09 <jamesn> clown: I do
18:48:17 <jamesn> RS: don't want to do this now
18:48:31 <jamesn> blowing out all the other ones too (deprecating them)
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18:49:32 <jamesn> MK: what is the challenge to get 2 extra values to be there
18:49:43 <jamesn> clown: sometimes quick, sometimes takes a long time
18:49:48 <jamesn> MK: this is simpler
18:49:57 <jamesn> clown: don't share that intuition
18:50:13 <jamesn> MK: if an author specifies true then can either map to inline or pass it through
18:50:30 <jamesn> RS: don't want this now
18:51:05 <jamesn> MK: in the core AAM the browsers can keep them
18:51:12 <jamesn> q?
18:51:13 <ShaneM> q?
18:51:22 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:51:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack bgaraventa
18:52:18 <jamesn> JF: i kind of support MK in that adding them is beneficial - but again it is just a mapping issue. Adding true/false we will see what authors do
18:52:38 <jamesn> clown: how difficult would this be?
18:52:59 <jamesn> RS: havent canvassed people
18:53:42 <jamesn> CS: would be difficult for us an inline and list are very different with how we wire them up. in UIA a list is a combo box. inline is a bunch of things in the text pattern.
18:53:47 <jamesn> they are completely unrelated
18:53:50 <jamesn> q+
18:54:02 <ShaneM> If there isn't agreement to do this, back burner it to aria 2?
18:54:14 <jamesn> MK: in UIA - if the author specifies the wrong thing will be brooken
18:54:24 <jamesn> CS: in UIA they are very different
18:54:32 <jamesn> MK: would have to map true to both
18:54:41 <JF> ack JF
18:54:56 <bgaraventa1979> sorry, back on the phone, my question is for aria-valuetext not aria-autocomplete
18:55:11 <jamesn> JN: if UIA is doing it differently then that is a good reason not to do it now
18:55:27 <jamesn> RS: have taken 30 mins for something i didnt want to open the can of worms on
18:55:40 <jamesn> MK: could change autocomplete guidance in combobox
18:56:04 <jamesn> MK: could be none or both as the only options that make any sense
18:56:20 <jamesn> RS: I would not accept the autocomplete changes
18:56:34 <jamesn> RS: if want to say something about what the author should do
18:56:40 <jamesn> that is fine
18:57:56 <jamesn> RS: can we have another version for next week?
18:57:59 <jamesn> MK: yes
18:58:19 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
18:58:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/04-aria-minutes.html jamesn
18:58:55 <jamesn> BG: my question about aria-valuetext. If have role=combobox on an input field. If have it on a div then no value property available
18:59:10 <jamesn> MK: still think that sounds like a browser bug
18:59:39 <jamesn> BG: using a combo box has a span etc.
18:59:54 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
18:59:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/04-aria-minutes.html jamesn
19:00:52 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make minutes
19:00:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/04-aria-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger
20:56:17 <joanie> mck: or richardschwerdtfeger: The group agreed that the "xforms" note and related concept should be removed for combobox, right?
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21:17:26 <JF> zakim, who's here?
21:17:26 <Zakim> Present: Joanmarie_Diggs, JamesNurthen, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, fesch, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Bryan_Garaventa, ShaneM, JF
21:17:28 <Zakim> On IRC I see sam, CB, JF, jongund, mck, Zakim, RRSAgent, richardschwerdtfeger, dcooney, ShaneM, trackbot, MichielBijl, JonathanNeal_, timeless, Josh_Soref, janina, joanie
21:18:02 <JF> Q+
21:18:24 <CB> q+
21:18:51 <JF> agenda?
21:19:00 <JF> agenda+ a thing
21:19:04 <JF> agenda?
21:19:15 <JF> zakim, next item
21:19:15 <Zakim> agendum 1. "a thing" taken up [from JF]
21:19:54 <JF> ack JF
21:20:05 <JF> ack jamesn
21:20:32 <CB> ack CB
21:26:31 <JF> JF has left #aria
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21:35:15 <JF> agenda?
21:35:41 <JF> zakim, close item 1
21:35:41 <Zakim> agendum 1, a thing, closed
21:35:42 <Zakim> I see nothing remaining on the agenda
21:35:54 <JF> zakim, please part
21:35:54 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Joanmarie_Diggs, JamesNurthen, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, fesch, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Bryan_Garaventa, ShaneM, JF
21:35:54 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
21:36:08 <JF> RRSAgent, please part
21:36:08 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2016/02/04-aria-actions.rdf :
21:36:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Joanmarie to address the non-normative notes which point out implicit values [1]
21:36:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/02/04-aria-irc#T18-44-55