IRC log of sdw on 2016-02-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:55:40 [RRSAgent]
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19:55:40 [RRSAgent]
logging to
19:55:42 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
19:55:42 [Zakim]
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19:55:44 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be SDW
19:55:44 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
19:55:45 [trackbot]
Meeting: Spatial Data on the Web Working Group Teleconference
19:55:45 [trackbot]
Date: 03 February 2016
19:55:56 [eparsons]
RRSAgent, make logs public
19:56:13 [eparsons]
19:56:25 [BartvanLeeuwen]
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19:56:35 [eparsons]
present+ eparsons
19:56:45 [eparsons]
chair: eparsons
19:57:02 [Lewis_John_McGibbney]
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19:57:08 [Lewis_John_McGibbney]
Afternoon Folks,
19:57:18 [Lewis_John_McGibbney]
Can someone PM me the Webex login?
19:57:20 [Lewis_John_McGibbney]
Than kyou
19:57:20 [eparsons]
Hello Lewis_John_McGibbney
19:57:43 [Payam]
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19:57:47 [eparsons]
It's the topic..
19:57:49 [Linda]
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19:57:57 [Lewis_John_McGibbney]
19:57:59 [ScottSimmons]
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19:58:14 [Linda]
present+ Linda
19:58:17 [ScottSimmons]
present+ ScottSimmons
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19:59:08 [RaulGarciaCastro]
present+ RaulGarciaCastro
19:59:41 [eparsons]
regrets: Kerry,Simon, Jeremy, Lars, Clemens, Bill, Andrea, Andreas, Josh
19:59:48 [frans]
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19:59:51 [BartvanLeeuwen]
present+ BartvanLeeuwen
20:00:01 [frans]
present+ frans
20:00:18 [ChrisLittle]
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20:00:30 [Lewis_John_McGibbney]
present+ Lewis_John_McGibbney
20:00:30 [ChrisLittle]
present+ ChrisLittle
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20:01:15 [KJanowicz]
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20:02:29 [ClausStadler]
present+ ClausStadler
20:02:47 [Payam]
present+ Payam
20:03:05 [eparsons]
scribe: linda
20:03:08 [ChrisLittle]
+1 to Linda
20:03:13 [frans]
thank you Linda
20:03:25 [Linda]
eparsons: may not be a full length call
20:03:26 [eparsons]
Topic : Approve last week's minutes
20:03:33 [eparsons]
Proposed : Approve last week's minutes
20:03:35 [DanhLePhuoc]
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20:03:40 [eparsons]
20:03:43 [Linda]
20:03:46 [Lewis_John_McGibbney]
20:03:50 [RaulGarciaCastro]
20:03:51 [ScottSimmons]
20:03:51 [frans]
20:03:53 [DanhLePhuoc]
present+ DanhLePhuoc
20:03:55 [ClausStadler]
20:03:56 [DanhLePhuoc]
20:03:56 [robin_]
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20:03:56 [ahaller2]
20:03:57 [BartvanLeeuwen]
20:03:59 [eparsons]
Resolved : Approve last week's minutes
20:04:02 [ahaller2]
present+ ahaller2
20:04:03 [ChrisLittle]
0 not oresent
20:04:06 [eparsons]
Topic : Patent Call
20:04:07 [robin_]
present+ robin
20:04:09 [robin_]
20:04:12 [eparsons]
20:04:30 [eparsons]
Topic : FYI Joint call with DWBP 17th February
20:04:50 [Linda]
eparsons: the next call after the f2f will be a joint call with the data on the web best practice group
20:05:01 [Linda]
... to deal with items in coordination with this group
20:05:10 [Linda]
... particularly the editors
20:05:22 [Linda]
.. may prepare this in the f2f next week
20:05:50 [eparsons]
Topic : Review of SSN wiki pages
20:05:54 [frans]
good idea to link up!
20:06:08 [Linda]
eparsons: Kerry has asked us to do this
20:06:16 [eparsons]
20:06:17 [MattPerry]
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20:06:38 [frans]
I am interested in SSN, to learn some more about the subject
20:06:40 [Linda]
... this is a link to a brain dump by Kerry about the thing she expects to be part of the ssn deliverable
20:06:52 [Linda]
... lets work through this list and see if anything's missing
20:07:02 [Payam]
20:07:09 [Linda]
... anyone closer to the topic who wants to walk us through these?
20:07:09 [Payam]
20:07:16 [eparsons]
ack next
20:07:17 [frans]
Has anyone ever used SSN?
20:07:20 [MattPerry]
present+ MattPerry
20:07:26 [Linda]
Payam: i was involved in ssn work
20:07:40 [KJanowicz]
I was involved as well
20:08:19 [KJanowicz]
20:08:28 [Linda]
... one of the key issues was the modularity of the ontology.
20:08:48 [Linda]
... we started creating modules, Simon knows a lot about this
20:08:54 [Linda]
... became a complex model
20:09:03 [Linda]
... we omitted multilanguage support
20:09:30 [frans]
Will the idea of SSN being an upper ontology remain intact?
20:09:31 [Linda]
... another thing we didn't do was create tools or libraries to transform CSV to SSN
20:09:42 [eparsons]
ack next
20:09:51 [Linda]
eparsons: KJanowicz has a comment
20:10:03 [Linda]
KJanowicz: may jump in if I have comments
20:10:39 [Linda]
Payam: ssn became popular but tools are lacking
20:11:07 [Linda]
KJanowicz: originally semantic sensor network ontology, but also went into observation part.
20:11:17 [Linda]
... but missing is unit and type of measurement values
20:11:33 [Linda]
Payam: correct
20:12:23 [Linda]
... the next item: probably actuation is meant. This is not supported by ssn but is requested. A group may have tried to do this.
20:12:34 [eparsons]
20:12:52 [eparsons]
rrsagent, draft minutes
20:12:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate eparsons
20:13:07 [Linda]
... network structure: not clear what kerry means here
20:13:08 [KJanowicz]
20:13:26 [Linda]
... ssn structure is device oriented, we never looked at human sensory data
20:13:26 [eparsons]
ack next
20:14:05 [Linda]
KJanowicz: ssn supports human sensors, but explicitly excludes this in the definition
20:14:21 [Payam]
20:14:33 [Linda]
eparsons: can you clarify?
20:15:29 [Linda]
KJanowicz: for example, if I say it is raining, this is an observation
20:15:44 [frans]
So this is about humans using their own senses? Not humans carrying devices?
20:16:10 [ChrisLittle]
20:16:17 [KJanowicz]
20:16:29 [Linda]
eparsons: seems like a broader scope then. Any data/observation collected by any actor.
20:16:30 [eparsons]
ack next
20:17:31 [Linda]
ChrisLittle: I think it's good to have activation and actuation.
20:17:40 [frans]
Current definition of sensor seems not to exclude human senses:
20:17:45 [Linda]
... and about human observations: there are frameworks in which this can be very reliable information
20:18:01 [ahaller2]
20:18:21 [Linda]
... so am in favor of them being in scope
20:18:29 [eparsons]
ack next
20:18:36 [Linda]
... and ogc standards support this, this could plug the gap in ssn
20:19:12 [Linda]
KJanowicz: output of computer models can also be called observations
20:19:56 [eparsons]
ack next
20:20:21 [Linda]
[missed a bit]
20:20:33 [Linda]
ahaller2: important to tackle this
20:20:50 [Linda]
... about the values: important to work together with the csv on the web WG.
20:20:58 [KJanowicz]
20:21:05 [Linda]
... they also have a JSON encoding
20:21:12 [Payam]
ahaller2: it is important to work on actuation- WoT group also finds this important
20:21:33 [ChrisLittle]
20:21:37 [eparsons]
ack next
20:21:44 [Linda]
eparsons: good point. There is much more interest in this from a broader community now.
20:22:42 [Linda]
ChrisLittle: csv for transmitting observations leads me to think about the difference between precision and accuracy which is sometimes ignored. Don't know how ssn addresses that.
20:23:15 [Linda]
eparsons: broader than just ssn, would be good to have pointers.
20:23:34 [frans]
Precision and accuracy should be addressed in the data on the web context, I think
20:23:41 [eparsons]
rrsagent, draft minutes
20:23:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate eparsons
20:23:48 [Linda]
Payam: systems platforms and deployment: details of this are not included in ssn
20:24:01 [Linda]
... e.g. what are the details of systems that should be specified?
20:24:08 [Linda]
... in ssn this is not specified, only some examples.
20:24:23 [Linda]
... validation: we have a validation tool but this could be made more formal.
20:24:37 [Linda]
... like HTML validators etc.
20:25:11 [Linda]
... ssn doesn't have a descriptive model for how to describe location.
20:25:35 [Linda]
... if sensing resources are mobile, it is unclear how to specifiy this
20:25:58 [Linda]
... ssn has some examples, but they are fragmented and not detailed.
20:26:50 [Linda]
... uncertainty: there is nothing in ssn to deal with trust, quality etc.
20:27:43 [Linda]
... IoT light might become a note; the idea is to have a simple version, ssn light, a compact version that would be useful to web of things WG.
20:27:57 [Linda]
... stories: linking to best practices, examples of where ssn is adopted.
20:28:26 [Linda]
... Ontology classes are described etc, but there is no How to get started with SSN tutorial. This would be helpful.
20:28:43 [Linda]
... Also nothing about reasoning with ssn. Examples would be useful.
20:28:55 [KJanowicz]
20:29:09 [Linda]
... At the moment ssn is specified in RDF, it would be good to see if it can be specified in JSON(LD?)
20:29:19 [eparsons]
ack next
20:29:24 [Linda]
... Also, looking at provenance.
20:30:25 [Linda]
KJanowicz: ssn emerged on the linked data side. Viewed as records, while OGC views the values as events.
20:30:48 [Linda]
... If we take Dolce away my proposal would be not to talk about events at all.
20:31:28 [Linda]
Payam: sampling features
20:31:40 [Linda]
KJanowicz: in ssn there is not much about sampling strategies.
20:32:19 [Linda]
Payam: that's it
20:32:24 [Linda]
eparsons: any comments anyone?
20:32:54 [Linda]
... or a question: how realistic is delivering 70% of those wishes?
20:32:55 [Payam]
20:32:57 [KJanowicz]
20:33:02 [BartvanLeeuwen]
20:33:09 [Payam]
ack Payam
20:33:19 [Linda]
... seems to me like we need to prioritize them. And do some scoping.
20:33:19 [frans]
20:33:21 [ChrisLittle]
20:33:29 [eparsons]
ack next
20:33:40 [Linda]
KJanowicz: unrealistic, we should focus on ssn light
20:33:43 [phila]
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20:33:55 [Payam]
agree- focusing on SSN-lite is a good idea
20:33:56 [Linda]
eparsons: do you have a particular community in mind that would need ssn light?
20:34:00 [Payam]
20:34:12 [ahaller2]
+1 for SSN-Lite
20:34:25 [DanhLePhuoc]
20:34:26 [Linda]
KJanowicz: e.g. big repositories of earth obeservation data, domain models
20:34:26 [eparsons]
ack next
20:34:57 [Linda]
BartvanLeeuwen: last time i wondered why this is on our charter. It's really a lot.
20:35:23 [Linda]
... we could say something about how you would encode location, this is close to our SDW BP work
20:35:37 [KJanowicz]
20:35:41 [eparsons]
ack next
20:36:11 [eparsons]
evening phil
20:36:20 [Linda]
frans: we have a task force for ssn, what about bringing in outside people to help work on this?
20:36:33 [Linda]
... we are open to collaboration, right?
20:37:04 [eparsons]
ack next
20:37:14 [Linda]
eparsons: even with collaborators it's a lot of work. We should focus on the spatial aspects. But collaboration would absolutely be a good idea.
20:37:21 [KJanowicz]
we have a lot of expertise about SSN in this group
20:37:37 [Linda]
ChrisLittle: guidance of what should be in ssn or not would be good - in relation to o&m.
20:37:49 [Linda]
... where's the overlap and what does ssn do that o&m doesn't?
20:37:49 [JohnCirincione]
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20:37:59 [KJanowicz]
E.g., o&m is not about sensor networks
20:38:26 [Linda]
eparsons: good point, could you add this to the wiki?
20:38:54 [Payam]
O&M is be also complex at times to describe the data; isn't also described in XML?
20:39:17 [Linda]
there's a proposed json encoding just out, Payam
20:39:22 [eparsons]
ack next
20:39:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate phila
20:39:38 [KJanowicz]
o&m as such can also not directly used for semantically enabled Linked Data but there is a version from SCox that does.
20:39:55 [Linda]
Payam: ssn is popular, if we could create a working model for data in ssn, this would increase the impact.
20:40:21 [Lewis_John_McGibbney]
I need to drop off early today folks. Thanks for the insight into SSN. I am still lacking context but this has helped a lot. I look forward to seeing more of this topic on list.
20:40:26 [Linda]
... e.g. location specification and measurement data and make it modular and extensible
20:40:28 [eparsons]
action ChrisLittle to add to wiki SSN vs. O&M illustration
20:40:28 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-134 - Add to wiki ssn vs. o&m illustration [on Chris Little - due 2016-02-10].
20:40:33 [eparsons]
ack next
20:41:08 [Linda]
DanhLePhuoc: I'm currently in Web of THings WG. We have a lot of industry parties that have sensor devices.
20:41:16 [Linda]
... they want interoperability and ssn is a candidate.
20:41:27 [Linda]
... problem is ssn is to big, ssn-lite is needed
20:41:47 [Linda]
... good modular version would be adopted 6 months ago
20:42:03 [eparsons]
rrsagent, draft minutes
20:42:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate eparsons
20:42:07 [Linda]
... internet of things needs spatial data
20:42:37 [Payam]
20:42:52 [eparsons]
ack next
20:42:53 [Linda]
eparsons: for ssn-lite we would need to identify clearly what the target community is.
20:43:20 [Linda]
KJanowicz: ssn is broader than o&m. The latter is not about sensor network etc.
20:43:44 [ChrisLittle]
20:44:20 [Linda]
... secondly, a lot of data does not require a lot of detail, often not entire ssn is needed, only a metadata record about the instrument, eg in oceanography.
20:44:26 [Linda]
... ssn lite would rule here too
20:44:35 [eparsons]
ack next
20:44:50 [phila]
zakim, close the queue
20:44:50 [Zakim]
ok, phila, the speaker queue is closed
20:44:56 [Linda]
Payam: ssn can now not be used for annotating data
20:44:59 [eparsons]
ack next
20:45:14 [KJanowicz]
I could not hear Payam
20:45:33 [KJanowicz]
20:45:36 [Linda]
ChrisLittle: I may be misunderstanding but there are a lot of standards on top of o&m that allow you to describe networks etc
20:45:45 [Linda]
... thats why scoping ssn is important
20:46:00 [KJanowicz]
There is a lot of voice
20:46:04 [KJanowicz]
20:46:15 [Linda]
... in metereology and oceanography etc there are a lot of ontologies existing. A lot of work done.
20:46:19 [eparsons]
KJanowicz can you 1:1 with Payam
20:46:22 [Payam]
I said that SSN specifies abstract concepts and their relations; SSN-Lite should help to create SSN instances to describe sensors/data
20:46:36 [Linda]
thanks payam
20:46:40 [frans]
Thanks, the SSN information was educational.
20:46:50 [phila]
zakim, open the queue
20:46:50 [Zakim]
ok, phila, the speaker queue is open
20:46:51 [Linda]
eparsons: thanks for this useful discussion and ideas.
20:46:57 [KJanowicz]
ChrisLittle: yes, see
20:47:05 [eparsons]
Topic : F2F homework for next week
20:47:32 [phila]
s/Topic :/Topic:/
20:47:34 [Linda]
eparsons: one of the requirements is to continue work on the BP. For that we need examples!
20:48:23 [Linda]
... Bring examples to the f2f that can fit into the BP. There are slots for them already in the BP.
20:48:53 [Linda]
... Examples should be on the web; with a description why it is a best practice.
20:49:11 [phila]
20:49:16 [phila]
20:49:16 [frans]
20:49:19 [Linda]
... Really helpful if we can get plenty of these.
20:49:26 [eparsons]
ack next
20:50:21 [Payam]
20:50:26 [eparsons]
ack next
20:50:29 [Linda]
phila: Can you prioritise? Try to match best practices with specific persons?
20:50:47 [Linda]
frans: can we bring examples of not so good practices?
20:50:53 [KJanowicz]
+1 for the anti-patterns
20:50:58 [ScottSimmons]
must leave early, bye
20:50:58 [eparsons]
ack next
20:51:01 [Linda]
eparsons: absolutely
20:51:06 [ChrisLittle]
+1 to bad practice
20:51:32 [phila]
present+ phila
20:51:42 [Linda]
Payam: We editors discussed this. If someone has a model example, we can discuss this and gain concensus on how to specify the examples.
20:52:02 [Linda]
...during the meeting we can then assign tasks to specific persons.
20:52:05 [Linda]
eparsons: what mechanism?
20:52:09 [Linda]
Payam: email list
20:52:34 [Linda]
Payam: we need to have 1 or 2 to start with, so we can decide what the form should be.
20:52:43 [Linda]
eparsons: anyone who can contribute one before next week?
20:52:59 [BartvanLeeuwen]
20:53:03 [eparsons]
ack next
20:53:15 [Linda]
BartvanLeeuwen: as narrative or as something I can show?
20:53:37 [Payam]
20:53:37 [Linda]
eparsons: not a huge narrative, something you can point at and a sentence describing it would be good
20:53:41 [Linda]
BartvanLeeuwen: will see what I can do
20:53:53 [eparsons]
Topic : CEO-LD Report
20:53:54 [Payam]
ack Payam
20:54:36 [phila]
-> CEO-LD Project
20:54:39 [eparsons]
action BartvanLeeuwen Email Public List with example of BP as an initial example for F2F
20:54:39 [trackbot]
Error finding 'BartvanLeeuwen'. You can review and register nicknames at <>.
20:54:48 [Linda]
phila: project funded by british embassy in Being. It's a specifically UK thing.
20:55:06 [Linda]
... idea is that they will contribute to Coverage work of this WG
20:55:17 [ahaller2]
20:55:43 [Linda]
... everyone involved in CEO-LD group is involved in this group as well.
20:56:12 [Linda]
... next meeting Sunday 28th february. Nothing has been done since September.
20:56:38 [Linda]
... Jon Blower has done cool work regarding this
20:56:41 [phila]
-> Coverage Data REST API Core Specification
20:57:05 [Linda]
... covers things we will be concerned about in this group when we work on this
20:57:22 [Linda]
... eg subsetting, how webby is it, etc
20:57:34 [Linda]
... if you're interested in coverages, look at this work
20:57:36 [eparsons]
rrsagent, draft minutes
20:57:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate eparsons
20:57:45 [Linda]
... see the Melodies project for this
20:58:07 [eparsons]
2 minute warning !!!
20:58:09 [Linda]
... chunks of this work could be useful also for our BP
20:58:55 [Linda]
... talks about JSON, content negotiation, and other stuff we could find useful. Thanks to Jeremy for pointing this out.
20:59:10 [phila]
-> Mailing list
20:59:14 [Linda]
... project is open to anyone to join the mailing list
21:00:18 [KJanowicz]
21:00:28 [eparsons]
ack next
21:00:42 [BartvanLeeuwen]
see you next week !
21:00:49 [phila]
21:00:49 [Linda]
KJanowicz: [missed that last bit]
21:00:57 [KJanowicz]
+1 for Linda
21:01:00 [ChrisLittle]
bye and thanks to Linda
21:01:10 [KJanowicz]
bye bye
21:01:12 [Payam]
thanks and bye
21:01:14 [phila]
RRSAgent, generate minutes
21:01:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate phila
21:01:16 [Linda]
eparsons: thanks everyone!
21:01:16 [eparsons]
bye !!
21:01:17 [Linda]
21:01:26 [frans]
21:01:37 [eparsons]
rrsagent, draft minutes
21:01:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate eparsons
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