17:31:40 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:31:40 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/01/28-aria-irc
17:31:42 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
17:31:42 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
17:31:44 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
17:31:44 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
17:31:45 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
17:31:45 <trackbot> Date: 28 January 2016
17:31:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
17:31:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> Meeting: W3C ARIA Working Group
17:32:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
17:32:22 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Jan/0146.html
17:33:36 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
17:33:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:33:52 <JF> JF has joined #aria
17:34:00 <JF> Present+ JF
17:35:23 <AmeliaBR> present+ AmeliaBR
17:35:38 <LJWatson> present+ LJWatson
17:37:16 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
17:39:46 <jongund> present+ jongund
17:41:22 <fesch> present+ fesch
17:41:51 <mck> mck has joined #aria
17:42:08 <janina> scribe: janina
17:42:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Jan/0146.html
17:42:47 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/decision-policy
17:42:49 <janina> topic: Draft Decision Policy
17:42:57 <janina> rs: Will be issuing a CfC
17:43:08 <janina> rs: ARIA policy is in sync with APA's
17:43:26 <janina> topic: Testing
17:43:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> public-aria-test@w3.org
17:43:45 <janina> rs: More coordination still needed but
17:43:56 <janina> rs: Above is a test email list/archive for ARIA
17:44:17 <janina> rs: Will try to keep test meetings at a minimum
17:44:38 <janina> rs: Looking to coordinate with Steve Faulkner and with SVG
17:45:05 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria
17:45:16 <janina> rs: We will not be applying host language restrictions in our testing
17:45:24 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
17:46:30 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
17:47:02 <Stefan> Stefan has joined #aria
17:47:03 <janina> mk: Is email list also for those writing test cases?
17:47:05 <janina> rs: Yes
17:48:36 <janina> topic: Action 1380 & 1700
17:48:46 <janina> action-1380?
17:48:46 <trackbot> action-1380 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to #presentation should mention aria-hidden vs presentation role on raster and vector images in relation to ACTION-1379 -- due 2016-01-28 -- OPEN
17:48:46 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1380
17:48:51 <janina> action-1700?
17:48:51 <trackbot> Sorry, but action-1700 does not exist.
17:49:06 <JF> Q+ to ask about subscribing to that new mailing list - details?
17:49:21 <janina> rs: What happens with ARIA-Hidden vs Role=None or =Presentation
17:49:42 <janina> rs: Webkit handles differently
17:50:19 <janina> rs: Tried adding TAB Index inside an SVG; Didn't work
17:50:48 <janina> rs: For now we will treat as a single graphic
17:50:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Jan/0136.html
17:51:12 <janina> rs: Please consider if OK
17:51:14 <AmeliaBR> q+
17:51:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:52:26 <janina> jf: Asking about test list -- how to subscribe ...
17:52:32 <janina> mc: I will get it documented
17:52:40 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack JF
17:52:40 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to ask about subscribing to that new mailing list - details?
17:52:49 <AmeliaBR> Amelia's detailed comments: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Jan/0148.html
17:52:53 <jamesn> q+
17:53:03 <MichaelC> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria-test/
17:54:00 <janina> ab: Wondering whether belongs in HTML Mapping?
17:54:21 <janina> ab: HTML clear that image is different from object/iframe
17:54:39 <janina> ab: No api for HTML image
17:55:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
17:56:12 <janina> ab: Suggesting adding recommendations for UAs to do smart things when authors haven't fully marked up
17:56:39 <janina> ab: Would be good to know up front whether an image is supposedly a11y
17:57:09 <janina> rs: That would be an HTML-WG responsibility
17:57:11 <mck> q?
17:57:23 <AmeliaBR> ack me
17:57:33 <mck> q+
17:57:58 <janina> rs: Perhaps some guidance rs: Is there timeline for next HTML spec?
17:58:03 <janina> lw: no
17:59:14 <janina> jn: Noting a language nit on vector graphics -- which could be raster
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18:00:13 <janina> ab: Treated as object regardless
18:00:30 <janina> RESOLUTION: Accept RS' text with some editorial changes so not specific to SVG image
18:00:40 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Jan/0136.html
18:01:38 <janina> mk: Still looking at the language -- "refer" seems ambiguous -- Phps ...
18:01:50 <janina> mk: We need Amelia's point to be more clearly made
18:02:15 <janina> mk: e.g. why all child elements of SVG ignored ??
18:02:38 <janina> rs: Didn't note no keyboard because it's an inert object
18:02:56 <janina> rs: We can't get at the children because of how browsers treat the object
18:03:07 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
18:03:49 <janina> mk: Aren't we saying all children of an object become a static string?
18:04:08 <janina> rs: No, because other browsers don't expose -- so you get nothing
18:04:33 <janina> mk: Can we say what the effect is? Seems so complex now.
18:06:08 <AmeliaBR> q+
18:06:44 <janina> mk: Why not simply say "an image is treated as a single object regardless whether it contains child elements"
18:06:55 <janina> rs: That would work
18:07:32 <janina> mk: What do we do with the inverse/ When you want children accessible?
18:07:38 <janina> rs: Read further into the text ...
18:08:17 <janina> mk: Not seeing the text ...
18:08:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> When the <img> is used to refer to either a raster image (e.g. <img src=“foo.jpg”>) or a vector graphics image <img src=“foo.svg”> it is treated as a single entity with all descendant elements being presentational. This is regardless of whether the target graphic has descendant elements that would normally be exposed to assistive technologies, such as with an SVG document. Consequently, using a role=“presentation” or
18:08:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> role=“none” on an <img> element is equivalent to using aria-hidden=“true”. If it is possible to make the descendant elements accessible the author SHOULD embed the document directly within the host document without it being referred to by <img>.
18:09:04 <janina> rs: Suggest word smithing on telecon is not best use of our time ...
18:09:08 <janina> mk: Can take to list
18:09:17 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
18:09:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/28-aria-minutes.html janina
18:10:41 <AmeliaBR> Two main points to cover: an img is a single entity, regardless of type of image file; if you want an image's contents to be accessible, embed using <object>, <iframe>, or inline SVG code
18:11:07 <janina> rs: OK. I'll work this up.
18:11:37 <janina> topic: Article Feed Proposal
18:11:38 <MichielBijl> +1
18:11:51 <janina> rs: Looks like we considered everything EXCEPT ARIA-Busy
18:11:53 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-busy
18:12:13 <janina> rs: Here's ARIA-1.0 version ...
18:12:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> ARIA 1.0 version: https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/states_and_properties#aria-busy
18:13:37 <janina> mk: 1.0 didn't make it clear what Busy was for
18:13:48 <janina> mk: What's the benefit for AT
18:13:56 <janina> mk: Changes intended to remedy that
18:14:27 <janina> mk: i.e. while Busy=true, aT may want to avoid making changes to the presentation
18:14:45 <janina> mk: Then do a single presentation when Busy clears
18:15:03 <janina> mk: We still need to work on what the good handshakes need to be
18:15:16 <janina> s/be/do/
18:15:50 <clown> clown has joined #aria
18:16:03 <janina> mk: Also want to make clear that Busy not just for Live regions
18:16:16 <janina> rs: Are changes OK? For 1.1?
18:16:42 <janina> RESOLUTION: Group agrees on MK's changes. Action is complete.
18:17:30 <janina> topic: Action 1736
18:17:34 <janina> action-1736?
18:17:34 <trackbot> action-1736 -- Michiel Bijl to Create an attribute to indicate a button is the primary button -- due 2015-12-10 -- OPEN
18:17:34 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1736
18:17:44 <janina> rs: Why is not clearing? We agreed to close.
18:17:56 <janina> mc: Usually this happens when attached to an Issue that didn't move
18:18:32 <jnurthen> jnurthen has joined #aria
18:19:08 <janina> jd: Believe it's a tracker bug. We've seen it before.
18:19:18 <janina> jd: Believe we need to clear, then reintroduce the product
18:19:47 <janina> mc: Hmmm, it's refusing to clear the product!
18:20:06 <janina> mc: I can take this off-line
18:20:13 <janina> topic: Current Actions
18:20:25 <janina> action-1489?
18:20:25 <trackbot> action-1489 -- Michael Cooper to Propose spec text to limit what aria attributes can be overridden by strong native semantics (e.g., aria-label and aria-labelledby) -- due 2015-11-12 -- OPEN
18:20:25 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1489
18:20:41 <clown> pressent+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:22:11 <janina> mc: Yes, I'll pick up on this ...
18:22:18 <clown> issue-619
18:22:18 <trackbot> issue-619 -- ARIA 1.1 should disallow host languages from declaring @aria-label from being declared in direct semantic conflict with a host language attribute. -- open
18:22:18 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/619
18:22:20 <janina> mc: 25 Feb
18:22:56 <janina> action-1490?
18:22:56 <trackbot> action-1490 -- Matthew King to Propose spec text edit for issue-610: comboboxes should allow complex children elements -- due 2015-12-03 -- OPEN
18:22:56 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1490
18:22:57 <Stefan> +q
18:23:10 <janina> action-1490?
18:23:10 <trackbot> action-1490 -- Matthew King to Propose spec text edit for issue-610: comboboxes should allow complex children elements -- due 2015-12-03 -- OPEN
18:23:10 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1490
18:23:28 <janina> mk: 4 Feb
18:23:33 <AmeliaBR> ack me
18:23:54 <jnurthen> q-
18:23:55 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:24:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack
18:24:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:24:11 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack jamesn
18:24:13 <Stefan> my mic is broken
18:24:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack richard
18:24:19 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack mck
18:24:38 <Stefan> regarding the aria.labelledby thing
18:24:55 <Stefan> we doing larger chains of labelling with labelledby
18:25:09 <Stefan> if for is prio this will break?
18:25:17 <Stefan> label for I mean
18:25:46 <Stefan> so this is not valid for aria-labelledby relationships?
18:25:53 <Stefan> okay!
18:26:01 <Stefan> q-
18:26:04 <clown> q+ to point out that the accname spec says aria-label wins.
18:26:06 <janina> rs: Mine was just an example between ARIA and host ml
18:26:23 <janina> item ARIA-1.1 Requirements Draft
18:26:39 <janina> mc: It's started, but has a ways to go
18:26:46 <janina> mc: Exit criteria is further along
18:26:57 <janina> mc: We will need requirements at PR stage
18:27:19 <janina> mc 25 Feb
18:28:04 <janina> action-1650?
18:28:04 <trackbot> Sorry, but action-1650 does not exist.
18:28:16 <Stefan> still pending .. got me
18:28:23 <janina> action-1560?
18:28:23 <trackbot> action-1560 -- Stefan Schnabel to Email list with discussion of on/off value labels (maybe valuetext?) and extending value descriptions to other controls -- due 2015-08-27 -- OPEN
18:28:23 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1560
18:28:24 <Stefan> I'm guilty
18:28:39 <Stefan> 2 weeks ok
18:28:44 <Stefan> this time for real
18:29:10 <Stefan> ok
18:29:31 <janina> action-1567?
18:29:32 <trackbot> action-1567 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Fix inconsistencies in linking and styles for properties -- due 2016-01-28 -- OPEN
18:29:32 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1567
18:29:46 <janina> jd: Need to check some with Shane
18:29:49 <jamesn> 650ml
18:29:54 <janina> rs: After CSUN?
18:30:00 <janina> jd: 30 March
18:30:08 <jamesn> s/650ml//
18:30:14 <janina> action-1624?
18:30:14 <trackbot> action-1624 -- Michael Cooper to Work with shane to develop publication strategy and solution that would exclude abstract roles for authors -- due 2015-08-16 -- OPEN
18:30:14 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1624
18:30:48 <janina> mc: Editorial, but we agreed ...
18:31:03 <janina> mc: It's more Shane than me at this point ...
18:31:28 <janina> mk: Do we need this for CR?
18:31:35 <janina> rs: People were complaining
18:31:47 <janina> mc: Probably before final CR
18:31:59 <janina> mc: We can't make major changes between final CR and PR
18:32:11 <janina> mc: We need people to be able to say: "This helps me"
18:32:46 <janina> mc 17 March
18:33:10 <janina> action-1632?
18:33:10 <trackbot> action-1632 -- Michael Cooper to Start documentation on how we do aria spec and modules -- due 2015-05-13 -- OPEN
18:33:10 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1632
18:33:25 <janina> rs: Don't we have a process for this? Shouldn't it be closed?
18:33:39 <janina> clown: I recall a wiki somewhere ...
18:33:56 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/ARIAExtensions
18:34:15 <janina> RESOLUTION: Close action-1632 as complete
18:34:58 <janina> action-1672?
18:34:58 <trackbot> action-1672 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Mark aria-grabbed, aria-dropeffect as deprecated and provide reference definition of derprecated -- due 2015-12-10 -- OPEN
18:34:58 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1672
18:35:18 <janina> bg: Weren't we going to replace somehow?
18:35:24 <janina> rs: Expecting proposal from jd
18:35:57 <janina> jd: I don't see my action as written currently. Do we need to update?
18:36:21 <janina> mk: Think mc is listed because mc had some specific wording to suggest
18:36:28 <clown> "This property is planned for deprecation, with a replacement, in a future version of WAI-ARIA. "
18:36:41 <janina> mk: We want to say "Don't use this anymore, we plan to replace it."
18:37:12 <janina> rs: So deprecate -- we plan to replace it
18:37:47 <janina> jd: I'll make a proposal
18:38:03 <janina> jd: 4 February
18:38:34 <janina> action-1675?
18:38:34 <trackbot> action-1675 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Remove list as a superclass of menu and listbox -- due 2015-11-05 -- OPEN
18:38:34 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1675
18:39:21 <clown> https://www.w3.org/2015/09/03-aria-minutes.html#item02
18:39:25 <janina> mk: I believe some of what I've been doing is behind this
18:40:09 <janina> mk: I also don't recall any substantive objections to doing this
18:42:47 <janina> mk: Menus are not lists; Though, all collections are "lists" in a general sense
18:43:43 <janina> rs: Related concept seems appropriate
18:46:19 <janina> DRAFT RESOLUTION: Menus and listbox will not have list as superclasses, but will refer to list as a related concept
18:47:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> DRAFT RESOLUTION: Menus and listbox will not have list as secondary superclass, but will refer to list as a related concept
18:47:31 <janina> RESOLUTION: Menus and listbox will not have list as secondary superclass, but will refer to list as a related concept
18:47:48 <janina> action-1676?
18:47:48 <trackbot> action-1676 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Remove directory as a superclass of tablist -- due 2015-11-05 -- OPEN
18:47:48 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1676
18:48:11 <janina> mk: We should have combined the discussion with above! It's the smae
18:48:22 <janina> s/smae/same/
18:49:54 <janina> RESOLUTION: Remove directory as a secondary superclass of tablist
18:50:33 <janina> action-1677?
18:50:33 <trackbot> action-1677 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Remove input as a superclass of scrollbar and select -- due 2015-11-05 -- OPEN
18:50:33 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1677
18:51:50 <janina> rs: Don't see an issue as long as no inheritance issues
18:52:31 <janina> rs: Don't believe "related concept" adds anything
18:52:53 <janina> rs: Does have to subclass widget
18:53:11 <janina> mk: Currently subclass of range, which is a subclass of widget
18:53:42 <janina> RESOLUTION: Have scrollbar not subclass input as a secondary subclass
18:55:09 <janina> rs: Let's see who subclasses input when we're all done!
18:55:28 <janina> rs: Then we can decide whether we still need input
18:55:38 <janina> jd: Checkbox?
18:59:29 <janina> topic: Final Notes
18:59:36 <janina> rs: We need a role of "error"
18:59:45 <janina> rs: error messages need to be visible.
18:59:54 <janina> rs: I wanted to put this out for consideration
19:00:07 <janina> rs: Also, we need to finish up on extended destription
19:00:20 <janina> rs: These are discussions from the mapping spec
19:00:43 <janina> mk: So error message couldn't reference a hidden element
19:00:45 <janina> rs: yes
19:01:35 <janina> clown: Not quite ... Relationship doesn't occur until unhidden
19:01:52 <janina> rs: We'll need these details for extended descriptions
19:02:29 <janina> rs: Issue is the name computation
19:03:59 <janina> zakim, bye
19:03:59 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Rich_Schwerdtfeger, JF, AmeliaBR, LJWatson, jongund, fesch, Bryan_Garaventa, Joanmarie_Diggs
19:03:59 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
19:04:05 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
19:04:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/28-aria-minutes.html janina
19:04:29 <janina> rrsagent, bye
19:04:29 <RRSAgent> I see no action items