15:47:52 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #annotation
15:47:52 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/01/27-annotation-irc
15:47:59 <azaroth> trackbot, start meeting
15:48:01 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:48:03 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2666
15:48:04 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Annotation Working Group Teleconference
15:48:04 <trackbot> Date: 27 January 2016
15:48:04 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
15:48:40 <azaroth> Regrets+ Frederick_Hirsch, Davis_Salisbury
15:48:44 <azaroth> Chair: Rob_Sanderson
15:48:50 <azaroth> Present+ Rob_Sanderson
15:49:15 <azaroth> PROPOSED RESOLUTION:  Minutes of previous call are approved
15:49:15 <azaroth> https://www.w3.org/2016/01/20-annotation-minutes.html
15:49:29 <azaroth> PROPOSED RESOLUTION:  Minutes of previous call are approved https://www.w3.org/2016/01/20-annotation-minutes.html
15:57:12 <chrisbirk> chrisbirk has joined #annotation
15:57:33 <susanuskudarli> Present+ Susan Uskudarli
16:01:08 <Jacob> Jacob has joined #annotation
16:01:18 <dwhly> Present+ Dan_Whaley
16:01:27 <bjdmeest> bjdmeest has joined #annotation
16:01:38 <tilgovi> tilgovi has joined #annotation
16:01:44 <bigbluehat> Present+ Benjamin_Young
16:02:30 <Jacob> Present+ Jacob_Jett
16:02:33 <tilgovi> Present+ Randall_Leeds
16:02:38 <bjdmeest> Present+ Ben_De_Meester
16:02:53 <TimCole> TimCole has joined #annotation
16:04:24 <shepazu> present+ shepazu
16:05:55 <csarven> I'm in another meeting. re: 5.  "HTML Serialization" . Just like to mention that, https://github.com/linkeddata/dokieli is entirely on HTML+RDFa + OA (position quote selector, and footnotes/references at the moment). Happy to give feedback or spec that out as needed.
16:06:16 <csarven> bigbluehat: azaroth ^^^
16:06:50 <azaroth> scribenick: dwhly
16:07:26 <TimCole> present+ Tim_Cole
16:07:39 <chrisbirk> present+ Chris_Birk
16:08:05 <dwhly> azaroth: review minutes, check results of doodle poll on a new time
16:08:25 <dwhly> .... then walk through the six issues we have in front of us.
16:08:49 <dwhly> ... then 2x deferred discussion on HTML serialization
16:09:06 <dwhly> ... if time, then discussion of selectors
16:09:08 <takeshi> takeshi has joined #annotation
16:09:38 <dwhly> shepazu: lets discuss f2f too
16:10:03 <dwhly> azaroth: other than webex switch, any other announcements?
16:10:10 <azaroth> PROPOSED RESOLUTION:  Minutes of previous call are approved https://www.w3.org/2016/01/20-annotation-minutes.html
16:10:24 <ivan> Present+ Ivan
16:11:00 <ivan> Topic: Logistics
16:11:02 <dwhly> azaroth: approved: Minutes of previous call are approved https://www.w3.org/2016/01/20-annotation-minutes.html
16:11:13 <takeshi> Present+ Takeshi_Kanai
16:11:45 <azaroth> Doodle link: http://doodle.com/poll/m25yrdi3fmne6src
16:11:45 <dwhly> azaroth: Frederick has a conflict with this time, and thus we need to select an alternate.
16:12:01 <dwhly> ... Doodle link: http://doodle.com/poll/m25yrdi3fmne6src
16:13:00 <dwhly> ... the proposal is that starting next week, we can switch to 8am PT on Fridays.
16:13:08 <tbdinesh> tbdinesh has joined #annotation
16:13:22 <dwhly> ... any objections
16:13:39 <azaroth> scribenick: azaroth
16:13:40 <dwhly> ... so moved!  and approved.
16:13:55 <azaroth> ivan: Tomorrow I'll change the webex entry
16:14:08 <azaroth> ... I hope it won't force me to change the password and whatever
16:14:23 <azaroth> shepazu: I just changed a telco for another group
16:14:34 <azaroth> ... it lets you just edit the entry to change the time without the rest
16:15:08 <azaroth> ivan: to be clear, we don't have a call on wednesday, but yes to friday ... the 5th of February for the new schedule
16:15:29 <azaroth> Topic: I Annotate / F2F
16:16:02 <azaroth> dwhly: Microsoft has agreed to host I Annotate in the atrium in Berlin on Under der Linden, a very nice space
16:16:48 <azaroth> ... Giving it to us for free, which is a huge benefit. Normally 20k euros. Thanks to everyone, Ivan, Doug and Georg with the connections were helpful
16:17:13 <azaroth> ... May 19 and 20th, Thursday and Friday, which implies the days before are for the F2F
16:17:31 <azaroth> ... The afternoon of 17th, and all of the 18th for the F2F. Georg has offered DFKI facility for it.
16:17:41 <azaroth> ... Slight conflict for the morning of the 17th, so 1.5 days
16:18:09 <azaroth> ... Also planning a hack day, but don't have a venue yet. Randall has been helpful, but still looking for something for around 40 people
16:18:30 <azaroth> ... If you're looking for travel support, let me know privately
16:18:48 <azaroth> ... Does not look like we'll get separate support from the funders.
16:19:15 <azaroth> ... Means there'll need to be a reasonable fee, on the order of 100 euros maybe, to cover catering
16:19:35 <azaroth> ... So won't have a huge pot of travel money, but do let me know and we'll see what we can do
16:19:38 <azaroth> scribenick: dwhy
16:19:56 <azaroth> scribenick: azaroth
16:20:10 <ivan> Regrets+ Davis_Salisbury
16:20:17 <azaroth> ... We also put a coalition together called annotating all knowledge, to bring annos to scholarly content
16:20:23 <azaroth> ... Page with participants linked from our home page
16:20:33 <azaroth> ... Aim is to get the publishers and platforms to interoperate
16:20:50 <azaroth> ... Announcement is that there'll be a f2f of a large number of them in April 17th, in Portland
16:21:00 <azaroth> ... Day before FORCE 2016 conference
16:21:21 <azaroth> ... Anyone interested are very welcome to attend, let me know and we'll make sure you're included
16:21:26 <azaroth> scribenick: dwhy
16:22:08 <TimCole> q+
16:22:44 <azaroth> ack TimCole
16:23:06 <azaroth> TimCole: Registration pages?
16:23:18 <azaroth> dwhly: We made them yesterday, hope to send out early next week to previous attendees
16:23:23 <dwhly> TimCole: When are the registration pages going up
16:23:26 <azaroth> ... F2F up to us to sort out
16:23:45 <dwhly> TimCole: when is the F2F registration page going up
16:23:51 <dwhly> shepazu: I'll do it today
16:24:04 <ivan> Topic: Issues
16:24:11 <dwhly> azaroth: issues, lets bang through them in 15 minutes
16:24:45 <azaroth> https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/86
16:24:46 <dwhly> ... there is a list of six issues. linked in
16:25:12 <dwhly> ... [someone] suggested a list of tags that could be added to the annotation
16:25:27 <tbdinesh> tbdinesh has joined #annotation
16:25:28 <dwhly> ... there hasn't been a concrete proposal, so suggest that we close the issue
16:25:45 <dwhly> ... is there anyone that would like to champion and make a proposal?
16:25:48 <bigbluehat> close and move on
16:25:54 <ivan> q+
16:26:00 <azaroth> ack ivan
16:26:35 <dwhly> ivan: what you did is something we should do in general. if there's an issue that's discussed, but no one that steps up, then we should either close or postpone
16:26:36 <bigbluehat> +1 to ivan
16:26:40 <dwhly> azaroth: +1
16:26:48 <dwhly> ... proposed resolution, close #86
16:26:53 <azaroth> PROPOSED RESOLUTION:  Close #86, won't fix, pools of tags on annotations
16:27:01 <ivan> +1
16:27:04 <azaroth> +1
16:27:06 <TimCole> +1
16:27:07 <shepazu> 0
16:27:07 <Jacob> +1
16:27:07 <bjdmeest> +1
16:27:23 <dwhly> RESOLUTION:  Close #86, won't fix, pools of tags on annotations
16:27:28 <ivan> rrsagent, pointer?
16:27:28 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2016/01/27-annotation-irc#T16-27-28
16:27:53 <dwhly> azaroth: thank you ivan for closing
16:27:57 <azaroth> Topic: https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/87
16:28:03 <dwhly> ... next issue is #87
16:28:17 <dwhly> ... which is embedding annotations in the target document
16:28:45 <ivan> +1
16:28:48 <dwhly> ... proposal is that we postpone this one because it ties to other topics like HTML serialization.  won't close outright, but won't work on it directly.
16:29:11 <azaroth> PROPOSED RESOLUTION:  Postpone issue #87, to work on later as part of future HTML serialization work
16:29:13 <ivan> +1
16:29:14 <azaroth> +1
16:29:19 <shepazu> +!
16:29:21 <shepazu> +1
16:29:28 <Jacob> +1
16:29:28 <dwhly> RESOLUTION:  Postpone issue #87, to work on later as part of future HTML serialization work
16:29:29 <csarven> +1
16:29:30 <ivan> rrsagent, pointer?
16:29:30 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2016/01/27-annotation-irc#T16-29-30
16:29:30 <takeshi> +1
16:29:39 <bjdmeest> +1
16:29:41 <azaroth> Topic: https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/107
16:30:05 <dwhly> azaroth: issue 107, opened by bigbluehat, on behalf of takeshi
16:30:32 <dwhly> ... we need a way to select more than just the textual content in HTML, for example if you wanted to annotate i [image heart] ny
16:30:44 <dwhly> ... currently not possible to include the heart.  good issue.
16:30:59 <dwhly> ... reason to close is that it's been split out into separate issues.
16:31:22 <dwhly> ... it seems like there's nothing more to do, will be addressed with issues to come.
16:31:28 <dwhly> ... any objections?
16:31:55 <dwhly> bigbluehat: lets iterate on the next batch of selectors.  lets close it.
16:32:03 <azaroth> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Close #107, as it will be solved by new selectors
16:32:05 <TimCole> +1
16:32:07 <Jacob> +1
16:32:08 <azaroth> +1
16:32:10 <ivan> +1
16:32:12 <takeshi> +1
16:32:16 <dwhly> RESOLUTION: Close #107, as it will be solved by new selectors
16:32:17 <tilgovi> +1
16:32:17 <ivan> rrsagent, pointer?
16:32:17 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2016/01/27-annotation-irc#T16-32-17-1
16:32:23 <dwhly> azaroth: done.
16:32:30 <azaroth> Topic: https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/113
16:32:35 <shepazu> q+
16:32:35 <dwhly> ... next one is shepazu's issue 113
16:32:54 <dwhly> ... we should work through motivations and work through them with user-agent behaviors.
16:33:41 <azaroth> ack shepazu
16:33:42 <ivan> q+
16:33:44 <dwhly> ... proposal is that we won't do this because we lack the time and it doesn't really add anything.  doug are you ok with closing it, or can you work on it.
16:33:54 <PaoloCiccarese> PaoloCiccarese has joined #annotation
16:34:12 <PaoloCiccarese> Present+ Paolo_Ciccarese
16:34:17 <dwhly> shepazu: i'd prefer not to close, lets postpone. i think there are other ways we can express it, could be worked into a spec, perhaps not this one.
16:34:36 <tantek> tantek has joined #annotation
16:34:47 <bigbluehat> propose to re-open if they arrive and are willing to work on it
16:34:48 <dwhly> ... as to who could work on it. the guy from europeana could follow up on it.  i'd like to see if they're still interested. that's still ongoing.
16:34:58 <dwhly> azaroth: proposal is to postpone.
16:35:08 <dwhly> ... ok to postpone.
16:35:37 <dwhly> ivan: i have no problem postponing, but have the impression that the discussion that happened diverged from what doug started with, and we need to realize this.
16:36:15 <dwhly> ... the discussion i see with rafael and europeana is going in a direction that's different than dougs.
16:36:34 <dwhly> ... what i thought doug was suggesting was that we have a more disciplined way to add more motivations.
16:36:50 <azaroth> PROPOSED RESOLUTION:  Postpone #113, until we have further time and people willing to move it forwards
16:36:53 <dwhly> ... i don't think we should go in the other direction.
16:36:57 <TimCole> +1
16:36:57 <PaoloCiccarese> +1
16:36:59 <Jacob> +1
16:36:59 <azaroth> +1
16:37:01 <shepazu> +1
16:37:01 <tilgovi> +1
16:37:02 <dwhly> RESOLUTION:  Postpone #113, until we have further time and people willing to move it forwards
16:37:04 <bigbluehat> +1
16:37:05 <ivan> +1
16:37:13 <ivan> rrsagent, pointer?
16:37:13 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2016/01/27-annotation-irc#T16-37-13
16:37:20 <azaroth> Topic: https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/119
16:37:38 <dwhly> azaroth: next one is doug's as well.  issue 119, around having groups in the annotation model as opposed to the protocol.
16:38:09 <dwhly> ... again the discussion was also quite rich around audience and access control, which we know is important but separately covered.
16:38:23 <dwhly> ... having access control specced in the model was not good.
16:38:43 <shepazu> q+
16:38:46 <dwhly> ... proposal is that we close 119 because it's covered by existing proposal for different components.
16:38:49 <azaroth> ack ivan
16:38:51 <azaroth> ack shepazu
16:39:07 <dwhly> shepazu: i don't think this is about access control, I think it's about indicating.
16:39:34 <dwhly> ... nick or someone from H. should weigh in.
16:39:35 <TimCole> q+
16:39:55 <dwhly> ... i'd prefer to postpone.
16:40:02 <azaroth> ack TimCole
16:40:06 <PaoloCiccarese> I believe the same Doug
16:40:26 <tilgovi> +q
16:40:40 <dwhly> timcole: i agree with what doug's saying, we do have the same thing in other issues.  i want to avoid access in authorization.
16:41:04 <tantek> tantek has joined #annotation
16:41:08 <dwhly> ... maybe we need a longer discussion with all the right people on the call.
16:41:22 <azaroth> ack tilgovi
16:41:24 <PaoloCiccarese> q+
16:41:28 <dwhly> ... if we don't have the right model for audience then we won't get the right adopters.
16:41:50 <dwhly> tilgovi: i'm not quite sure i follow. not in favor of specifying access control in the model.
16:42:05 <dwhly> ... i think this could be taken care of by existing things like tags.
16:42:06 <azaroth> ack PaoloCiccarese
16:43:04 <ivan> q+
16:43:18 <azaroth> ack ivan
16:44:03 <dwhly> PaoloCiccarese: We will need group models, with subgroups, etc.  How is a third party system understanding.
16:44:14 <dwhly> ivan: i propose we postpone
16:44:17 <azaroth> PROPOSED RESOLUTION:  Postpone #119 for further discussion and proposals needed
16:44:24 <TimCole> +1
16:44:25 <azaroth> +1
16:44:25 <dwhly> RESOLUTION:  Postpone #119 for further discussion and proposals needed
16:44:26 <Jacob> +1
16:44:31 <ivan> +1
16:44:49 <PaoloCiccarese> +1
16:45:06 <azaroth> TOPIC: https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/130
16:45:07 <ivan> rrsagent, pointer?
16:45:07 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2016/01/27-annotation-irc#T16-45-07
16:45:44 <dwhly> azaroth: next one is 130.  at the moment, we use nick, because nick is kind of old-fashioned, so we've used account.
16:46:00 <dwhly> ... but there's also an "account" so there could be confusion.
16:46:12 <dwhly> ... do people think we should use something else?
16:46:20 <dwhly> ... no one bit, happy to close
16:46:30 <dwhly> propose we close
16:46:45 <PaoloCiccarese> q+
16:46:57 <dwhly> paolociccarese: can you explain your concern
16:47:08 <dwhly> azaroth: there is a property account, and also nick
16:47:27 <dwhly> ... we use account in the json-ld context for foaf-nick
16:47:41 <dwhly> ... so if someone wanted to use account, that would be a problem
16:47:42 <tilgovi> Anyone want to propose something else?
16:47:52 <azaroth> PROPOSED RESOLUTION:  Close #130, not our concern
16:47:54 <ivan> +1
16:47:57 <azaroth> +1
16:47:59 <dwhly> RESOLUTION:  Close #130, not our concern
16:48:00 <Jacob> +1
16:48:22 <azaroth> "account": "azaroth"
16:48:34 <TimCole> +1
16:48:37 <azaroth> "foaf:account" : {"@id" : "twitter.com/users/azaroth42"}
16:48:45 <ivan> rrsagent, pointer?
16:48:45 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2016/01/27-annotation-irc#T16-48-45
16:49:03 <dwhly> paolociccarese: i think its fine
16:49:13 <dwhly> azaroth: lets call it closed
16:49:15 <PaoloCiccarese> +1
16:49:29 <dwhly> ... tim and doug, html serialization?
16:49:48 <azaroth> TOPIC:  HTML Serialization
16:49:49 <dwhly> ... as a suggestion: where do we want to get to by the end of the charter.
16:50:13 <dwhly> timcole: question in my mind is: what do people on the call mean by html serialization
16:50:31 <dwhly> ... 1. we have a json-ld serialization by default
16:50:40 <PaoloCiccarese> q+
16:50:41 <dwhly> ... 2. turtle
16:50:49 <dwhly> ... 3. microformats
16:51:04 <dwhly> ... they could do that but we could provide some guidance
16:51:17 <PaoloCiccarese> 4. RDF/a
16:51:27 <shepazu> q+
16:51:42 <ivan> q+
16:51:45 <dwhly> .... that's a bigger thing to bite off, might be critical for adoption
16:51:49 <azaroth> ack PaoloCiccarese
16:52:06 <dwhly> paolociccarese: some time ago, we played with some things
16:52:16 <dwhly> ... first level would be nice to have guidelines
16:52:26 <azaroth> ack shepazu
16:52:47 <dwhly> shepazu: solution i'm looking at doesn't ask rdfa
16:52:55 <dwhly> ... don't know if this can be done.
16:53:16 <dwhly> ... i'm going to try this summer to start a spec for html serialization and see if there's interst
16:53:30 <azaroth> ack ivan
16:53:33 <dwhly> ... we could start, not sure we'll finish
16:53:44 <dwhly> ivan: getting back to what tim said
16:53:49 <azaroth> q+
16:53:54 <dwhly> ... i'm looking for use cases
16:54:02 <dwhly> ... in between what tim said
16:54:17 <dwhly> ... i could see importance of html format even if target is somewhere else
16:54:33 <dwhly> ... an annotation system could put that into the dom in a dynamic manner
16:54:40 <dwhly> ... then someone could use CSS to style
16:54:51 <dwhly> ... i wouldn't even put tim's resrtiction in
16:54:59 <TimCole> q+
16:55:01 <dwhly> ... rdfa or something else, i don't know
16:55:06 <azaroth> ack azaroth
16:55:24 <dwhly> azaroth: +1 to ivan, having a set of use cases would be valuable
16:55:36 <dwhly> ... before diving in to rdfa, html, etc.
16:55:47 <azaroth> ack TimCole
16:55:48 <dwhly> ... stakeholders, adopters, whaat are we trying to solve
16:56:00 <dwhly> timcole: agree on use cases, also in terms of formatting.
16:56:16 <dwhly> ... my suggestion is that when it comes time, we may have to do this 2x
16:56:16 <shepazu> agenda+ F2F Registration
16:56:44 <dwhly> ... if we get rechartered, might have to pursue longer term soltion
16:56:55 <dwhly> ... agree w/ doug.  i'd propose what rob is suggesting.
16:57:06 <dwhly> ... use cases, how to meet them.
16:57:18 <dwhly> azaroth: seems good. anyone else?
16:57:23 <azaroth> q?
16:57:40 <dwhly> ... lets make a gh issue with the broad set of things
16:57:49 <dwhly> ... include this discussion
16:58:03 <dwhly> ... this is not going to block CR or other processes
16:58:18 <dwhly> ... tim can u do
16:58:24 <dwhly> timcole: tomorrow
16:58:32 <dwhly> azaroth: there is a serialization tag
16:58:49 <dwhly> shepazu: f2f registration
16:58:50 <azaroth> TOPIC:  F2F registration
16:58:51 <shepazu> Registration poll: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/73180/anno-f2f-berlin-2016/
16:58:54 <shepazu> F2F wiki page: https://www.w3.org/annotation/wiki/Meetings/F2F_Berlin_2016
16:58:59 <dwhly> ... i have created a poll, pls answer
16:59:05 <dwhly> ...that. is. all.
17:00:08 <dwhly> azaroth: top of the hour, lets rejoin next friday
17:00:11 <dwhly> BYE
17:00:16 <ivan> bye
17:00:20 <azaroth> Thanks to Dan for scribing!
17:00:20 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:00:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/27-annotation-minutes.html ivan
17:01:17 <ivan> trackbot, end telcon
17:01:17 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
17:01:17 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Ivan, Frederick_Hirsch, Rob_Sandersion, Rob_Sanderson, Tim_Cole, Benjamin_Young, Jacob_Jett, shepazu, davis_salisbury, Paolo_Ciccarese,
17:01:20 <Zakim> ... Ben_De_Meester, Chris_Birk, TB_Dinesh, Takeshi_Kanai, Randall_Leeds, Dan_Whaley, Susan, Uskudarli, !
17:01:25 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:01:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/27-annotation-minutes.html trackbot
17:01:26 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
17:01:26 <RRSAgent> I see no action items