16:03:28 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #alreq
16:03:28 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/01/26-alreq-irc
16:03:34 <r12a> r12a has joined #alreq
16:03:42 <Shervin> Shervin has joined #alreq
16:03:53 <Shervin> chair: Behnam
16:04:08 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #alreq
16:04:16 <Shervin> chair: Behnam
16:04:23 <Shervin> scribeNick: Shervin
16:04:25 <Behnam> This is ALReq Weekly Meeting
16:04:44 <Behnam> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:04:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/26-alreq-minutes.html Behnam
16:04:55 <r12a> present+ r12a,mostafa,amr,shervin, behnam, najib, waseem
16:05:04 <r12a> zakim, who's here?
16:05:04 <Zakim> Present: r12a, mostafa, amr, shervin, behnam, najib, waseem
16:05:06 <Zakim> On IRC I see Shervin, r12a, RRSAgent, Waseem, najib, Behnam, Amr_Darwish_IBM, mostafa, trackbot
16:05:07 <Behnam> RRSAgent, please make logs world-visible
16:05:11 <Behnam> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:05:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/26-alreq-minutes.html Behnam
16:06:33 <Behnam> Zakim, this is ALReq Weekly Meeting
16:06:33 <Zakim> got it, Behnam
16:06:48 <Behnam> agenda+ Status review of action items
16:06:53 <Behnam> agenda+ Review of Github issues
16:07:00 <Behnam> agenda+ Drafting updates
16:07:06 <Behnam> agenda+ Persian transliteration for the glossary (Shervin)
16:07:09 <Behnam> agenda?
16:07:55 <Behnam> Topic: Status review of action items
16:08:02 <Behnam> https://www.w3.org/International/groups/arabic-layout/track/actions/open?sort=owner
16:08:11 <Shervin> Behnam: Opening the meeting. Status of action items.
16:08:47 <Shervin> Shervin: for ACTION-46, ETA is next week
16:09:38 <Shervin> Behnam:  for ACTION-23, I checked the Github guide. Didn't see anything missing. Had a pull request. We can close this aciton.
16:09:47 <Behnam> close action-42
16:09:47 <trackbot> Closed action-42.
16:10:23 <Shervin> s/ACTION-23/ACTION-42/
16:10:24 <Behnam> ACTION-45: Write a paragraph to reference to the arabic script chapter of the unicode standard
16:10:24 <trackbot> Notes added to ACTION-45 Write a paragraph to reference to the arabic script chapter of the unicode standard.
16:11:16 <Shervin> Behnam: For ACTION-45, htmltidy was used.
16:11:26 <Behnam> https://github.com/w3c/alreq/pull/30
16:11:53 <Behnam> close action-45
16:11:53 <trackbot> Closed action-45.
16:12:01 <Shervin> ... there are two short paragraphs. Task can be closed. Please provide comments and feedback.
16:12:23 <Shervin> Bahnam: ACTION-23 is still in the works.
16:13:02 <Shervin> Mostafa: Working on ACTION-36. Changing the code for this.
16:13:13 <mostafa> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nxXVe7wgPtqekAXqMLnNVJjmP8-XK_sgkCsrf3zxPp0/edit#gid=1033134929
16:13:43 <Shervin> q+
16:14:12 <Shervin> ... some characters are mis-categorized.
16:14:34 <Shervin> ... Persian Gaf is categorized as Arabic.
16:15:59 <mostafa> q+
16:16:08 <Shervin> Shervin: This is because of the structure of auxiliary chars in CLDR.
16:16:11 <Shervin> q-
16:16:29 <mostafa> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uPrxdtedlodiabT4SjptfVqumeHJCe8Pkl8eWXFiFJc/edit
16:17:09 <r12a> q+
16:17:18 <najib> Gaf is a spoken Arabic letter but not a writing letter in general.
16:17:24 <Shervin> Mostafa: We need to see how can we drop the aux chars for tables.
16:17:33 <Behnam> ack mostafa
16:17:38 <Behnam> ack r12a
16:17:42 <Shervin> q+
16:17:46 <mostafa> q+
16:18:29 <Shervin> Richard: Suggesting that the aux chars can have a bullet point that they are aux. No need for extra column.
16:18:34 <Shervin> q-
16:18:50 <Shervin> Shervin:
16:19:50 <najib> q+
16:19:57 <Shervin> Shervin: Presentation has to be decided so we can keep them in the charts.
16:20:15 <Behnam> q?
16:20:28 <Shervin> Mostafa: We can try and see how would it work.
16:20:28 <Behnam> ack najib
16:21:25 <Behnam> q?
16:21:31 <mostafa> q-
16:21:43 <Shervin> Najib: Should we add a column to distinguish the letters written in Persian and Arabic.
16:22:31 <Shervin> Behnam: Unicode is encoding many characters under "ARABIC LETTER".
16:22:45 <Shervin> ... We need to document which are being used.
16:23:07 <Shervin> ... By Unicode categorization, all are Arabic letters.
16:24:07 <Shervin> Najib: Line 56, 51, or others. Should we keep the letters as they are?
16:25:22 <Shervin> Najib: Discussion was to add a new column.
16:25:33 <Shervin> Behnam: Mostafa, any comments?
16:25:54 <Shervin> Mostafa: Aux chars are defined by CLDR. If there are other special chars, we can discuss.
16:25:59 <Shervin> +1
16:26:20 <Shervin> Najib: I'm okay with that.
16:26:28 <Behnam> ScribeNick: Behnam
16:26:36 <Behnam> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:26:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/26-alreq-minutes.html Behnam
16:26:38 <Shervin> Mostafa: If there is any chars which we need to say more about them, we can mark and talk about them.
16:26:40 <Shervin> q+
16:27:18 <Shervin> Najib: Normal letters and others columns 49 and above.
16:27:18 <Behnam> q+
16:27:43 <Shervin> Mostafa: I'm working on producing new tables. I will have something to show and get feedback.
16:27:59 <Shervin> Najib: Let's wait and see the results.
16:28:02 <najib> q-
16:28:53 <Shervin> q-
16:29:11 <Shervin> Shervin: We're gonna see the presentation of aux and main.
16:29:31 <Shervin> Behnam: We don't get into linguistic. Typography focus.
16:29:45 <Shervin> ... If the letter is used and needs to be supported, should be added.
16:29:46 <Shervin> +1
16:30:06 <Shervin> Behnam: Closing the action? Keep it open?
16:30:09 <mostafa> https://github.com/w3c/alreq/issues/31
16:30:20 <Shervin> Mostafa: It's ongoing. There would be Github issues for discussions.
16:30:48 <Shervin> Mostafa: ACTION-41, was finished last week. Kept open for feedback.
16:30:56 <mostafa> https://docs.google.com/document/d/177yHWJ9WZLDyekFioxFPOrmycN-76ueXnQ2jrucxh3w/edit?usp=drive_web
16:30:59 <Shervin> Behnam: I haven't looked at it yet.
16:31:21 <Shervin> q+
16:31:31 <mostafa> https://github.com/w3c/alreq/issues/28
16:32:20 <Behnam> +1
16:32:22 <r12a> https://www.w3.org/International/articles/inline-bidi-markup/uba-basics
16:32:32 <r12a> q+
16:32:36 <Shervin> Shervin: A summary of what's happening in UAX-9 might be good.
16:32:41 <Shervin> q-
16:32:56 <Shervin> Mostafa: A good idea. Can take a look at it.
16:32:59 <najib> q+
16:33:06 <Behnam> q?
16:33:12 <Behnam> ack Behnam
16:33:25 <Shervin> Najib: Richard has good documents on this topic.
16:33:35 <Shervin> Behnam: I think Richard shared the link to that doc.
16:33:40 <Behnam> present?
16:33:41 <najib> q-
16:33:52 <Behnam> present+
16:33:58 <Behnam> present+ Shervin
16:34:07 <Shervin> Richard: Hard to summarize UAX9 easily, but we can summarize briefly and point at the article above.
16:34:24 <Shervin> ... For people who are not experts per se.
16:34:40 <Shervin> ... Generally, a brief summary and pointing to this document can be helpful.
16:34:49 <najib> q+
16:34:52 <Behnam> present+ r12a
16:34:55 <Behnam> present+ najib
16:35:00 <Behnam> present?
16:35:11 <r12a> zakim, who's here?
16:35:11 <Zakim> Present: r12a, mostafa, amr, shervin, behnam, najib, waseem
16:35:13 <Zakim> On IRC I see Shervin, r12a, RRSAgent, Waseem, najib, Behnam, Amr_Darwish_IBM, mostafa, trackbot
16:35:23 <Shervin> Najib: Richard's document doesn't talk about the layout of the page. Different parts in rtl presentation.
16:35:30 <Shervin> ... columns, etc.
16:35:41 <Shervin> ... We should have that covered.
16:35:42 <Shervin> q+
16:35:47 <Behnam> q?
16:35:48 <najib> q-
16:35:53 <Behnam> ack r12a
16:36:09 <r12a> q+
16:36:31 <Behnam> ack Shervin
16:36:39 <Behnam> ack r12a
16:36:44 <Shervin> Shervin: Re: Layout. Not the topic of UAX9/UBA. Layout would be covered some other place.
16:36:53 <mostafa> +1
16:36:58 <Shervin> Richard: Agreeing.
16:37:03 <Shervin> Najib: Agreeing.
16:37:20 <Shervin> Mostafa: I will work on the section to expand.
16:37:40 <Shervin> Richard: ACTION-4 is ongoing.
16:38:04 <Shervin> Najib: ACTION-7, finally finished the pull request and waiting for feedback.
16:38:11 <Shervin> ... on Github.
16:38:39 <r12a> https://github.com/w3c/alreq/pulls
16:38:42 <Shervin> Richard: Don't see the PR.
16:38:52 <Behnam> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:38:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/26-alreq-minutes.html Behnam
16:39:18 <mostafa> q+
16:39:25 <Shervin> Richard: Followed the document.
16:39:41 <Shervin> Behnam: Najib has a commit on his branch but no PR.
16:39:44 <mostafa> q-
16:39:47 <Behnam> https://github.com/ntounsi/alreq/commit/8faeabf7ad3c323b2b058c689e08aa0ef166ae56
16:40:14 <Shervin> Behnam: Submitted a PR to your own repo and not our main repo.
16:40:24 <Shervin> ... Can help you with that.
16:40:28 <Shervin> +1
16:41:58 <Shervin> Behnam: After the meeting we can walk through the PR to main repo.
16:42:13 <Shervin> Richard: If you spot anything which is wrong with the doc, please do let me know.
16:42:32 <Shervin> Behnam: These were all the actions that we had.
16:43:34 <Behnam> HTML Tidy: http://www.html-tidy.org/
16:43:43 <Behnam> Command used to normalize HTML code, specially indents and line-breaks:
16:43:46 <Shervin> Behnam: Sharing htmltidy code...
16:43:47 <Behnam> $ tidy -q -i -m -w 100 --tidy-mark false index.html
16:44:11 <Shervin> Behnam: This is the command used to format the file.
16:44:47 <Shervin> Behnam: The latest version supports HTML5 and doesn't throw warnings.
16:45:10 <Shervin> Behnam: We can keep tidying regularly if it's not possible for everyone to do that by themselves.
16:45:51 <Shervin> Richard: If tidying changes things a lot, we should keep them separate from other editorial/content changes.
16:45:58 <Shervin> ... easier to spot the diffs.
16:46:03 <Behnam> agenda?
16:46:13 <Behnam> Topic: Review of Github issues
16:46:18 <Behnam> https://github.com/w3c/alreq/issues
16:46:39 <Shervin> Behnam: Picking up Github issues...
16:46:50 <Shervin> ... wanted to look at everything labeled "Drafting".
16:47:10 <Shervin> https://github.com/w3c/alreq/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Adrafting
16:49:03 <Shervin> Behnam: Issue 29 is filed to address some of the questions about lists.
16:49:13 <mostafa> https://github.com/w3c/alreq/issues?utf8=✓&q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Adrafting+-label%3Afuture
16:49:58 <mostafa> Sorry for the link. My mistake.
16:50:24 <Shervin> Behnam: PR number 30. Talking about presentation forms.
16:50:41 <Behnam> http://www.w3c.org.ma/Tests/joiningColoredLetters.html
16:52:26 <Shervin> ... this topic came up multiple times on W3C mailing list; there hasn't be any resolution on how to do that.
16:52:34 <Shervin> q+
16:52:59 <Shervin> Najib: Wanted to have a discussion about this topic.
16:53:19 <Shervin> ... Would like to have opinion on this issue.
16:53:23 <r12a> q+
16:53:27 <Shervin> Behnam: The test page is good.
16:54:06 <Behnam> q+
16:54:10 <Behnam> ack r12a
16:54:22 <r12a> http://www.w3c.org.ma/Tests/joiningColoredLetters.html
16:54:22 <Shervin> Richard: Looking at the test page...
16:54:53 <Shervin> ... It describe the situation when one wants to use precomposed chars.
16:55:09 <Shervin> ... although it doesn't work in FF, FF needs to be fixed.
16:55:15 <Shervin> ... Shouldn't change the data.
16:55:28 <Shervin> Behnam: A little more complicated than that.
16:55:43 <Shervin> ... FF looks like it's working. Chrome is broken.
16:56:01 <najib> I prefer firefox
16:56:18 <Shervin> ... Most implementation break Arabic joining around these cases.
16:56:36 <Shervin> Richard: We should step back and ask what do we think should happen.
16:56:53 <Shervin> ... in the doc, we should talk about what we expect to happen.
16:57:07 <Shervin> ... in the document, there is no need to get into the details.
16:57:25 <Shervin> ... The key thing is to say how should this work rather than how does it work.
16:57:43 <Shervin> Behanm: Correct. Issue 4 is filed to cover this.
16:58:12 <Shervin> ... We don't need to use presentation forms for these.
16:58:27 <Shervin> ... Special needs can be ZWJed.
16:58:58 <Shervin> ... either case we are polluting the data. Causing issues with search.
16:59:12 <Shervin> Najib: The same discussion happened in i18n WG.
16:59:57 <Shervin> ... Software rarely support joining, the only way around it is using pres forms.
16:59:59 <Shervin> q+
17:00:07 <Behnam> ack Behnam
17:00:29 <Shervin> ... No other solution with that software.
17:00:39 <Shervin> Behnam: That can be a case.
17:01:18 <mostafa> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/137j59fPt1nkl0h6O72SR50SX3MHk0lWzmqcEaAmo1zM/edit#gid=0
17:01:54 <Behnam> +1
17:01:59 <mostafa> +1
17:02:04 <Shervin> Shervin: We need to focus how the script works and the software should follow. Not the other way around.
17:02:41 <Shervin> Najib: No particulary opinion on this. A point of discussion only.
17:02:47 <najib> Ok
17:03:00 <Shervin> s/particulary/particular/
17:03:16 <Shervin> Behanm: Issue 4 and 30 are related.
17:03:45 <Behnam> agenda?
17:03:48 <Shervin> ... We have covered all the GH issues.
17:04:01 <Behnam> Topic: Drafting updates
17:04:20 <Shervin> q+
17:04:29 <Behnam> ack Shervin
17:04:50 <Waseem> q+
17:06:04 <Behnam> ack Waseem
17:06:20 <Shervin> Waseem: Interested to have some contribution to section regarding numerals. Shall I draft something and share with Khaled? Or share it with the group?
17:06:26 <Shervin> q+
17:06:45 <Shervin> Behnam: Will contact Khaled regarding this.
17:07:35 <Shervin> Richard: Everyone can contribute.
17:07:38 <Shervin> q-
17:07:44 <Waseem> q-
17:08:31 <Behnam> https://www.w3.org/International/groups/arabic-layout/track/actions/37
17:08:59 <Shervin> "Brief description of different sets of numerals and their usage for Arabic and Persian languages."
17:09:06 <Behnam> ACTION: Waseem to draft a section on numerals for Arabic Script Overview
17:09:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-47 - Draft a section on numerals for arabic script overview [on Waseem Daoud - due 2016-02-02].
17:09:56 <Behnam> agenda?
17:10:27 <Behnam> Topic: Persian transliteration for the glossary (Shervin)
17:11:24 <Behnam> q+
17:11:27 <najib> Arabic transliteration is on going
17:11:27 <mostafa> q+
17:11:52 <Shervin> Shervin: We don't have any transliteration for Persian? Shall we not that column? ICU transliteration?
17:12:05 <Shervin> Behnam: Prefer not to do automatic.
17:12:21 <r12a> q+
17:12:22 <Behnam> ack Behnam
17:12:30 <Shervin> ... Get higher quality translitation.
17:14:48 <najib> :-) good tool
17:15:01 <Behnam> http://r12a.github.io/pickers/arabic/
17:15:03 <najib> http://r12a.github.io/pickers/arabic/index.html
17:15:13 <Shervin> Richard: Using Arabic picker tool, Najib generates the draft transliteration.
17:16:00 <Shervin> ... A picker tool can be provided for Persian as well.
17:16:47 <Shervin> Richard: It's mostly manual.
17:17:33 <Shervin> Behnam: One column with diacritics which can be used to generate the transliteration.
17:17:41 <Shervin> q+
17:17:46 <mostafa> q-
17:18:10 <Shervin> Behnam: Is the code available?
17:18:25 <Shervin> Richard: JS file.
17:19:14 <Shervin> Shervin: We can do the scripting, but the diacritics should be put in there.
17:20:39 <mostafa> q+
17:20:48 <Behnam> ack r12a
17:20:51 <Behnam> ack Shervin
17:20:53 <Shervin> Richard: Every entry we put in the glossary, we can have it with diacritics.
17:21:01 <Shervin> q+
17:21:21 <Shervin> ... Not displaying that ones with diacritics.
17:21:33 <mostafa> q-
17:22:51 <mostafa> q+
17:22:56 <Shervin> Behnam: Going to get an action item to get the Persian picker to work.
17:23:20 <Shervin> ... we need to pick one standard and then work on the picker.
17:23:38 <Shervin> q+
17:23:55 <Shervin> Richard: It sounds good.
17:25:34 <Behnam> http://www.eki.ee/wgrs/rom1_fa.htm
17:26:00 <Shervin> Shervin: Actually like Richard's proposition. The problem is that we don't have the diacritics for existing Persian.
17:26:11 <Behnam> http://www.eki.ee/wgrs/rom1_fa.pdf
17:26:19 <Shervin> ... LOC schema is odd and old for Persian. Prefer UN schema.
17:26:21 <Shervin> q+
17:26:24 <Behnam> http://unstats.un.org/unsd/geoinfo/UNGEGN/docs/10th-uncsgn-docs/econf/E_CONF.101_118_Rev.1_Transcription%20symbols%20for%20Persian_Updated.pdf
17:27:18 <Shervin> q-
17:28:05 <Shervin> Richard: Picker is not using ICU format for transforms. It's a regular expression based implemenation.
17:28:32 <Shervin> Behnam: UN schema looks better and closer to what people use.
17:30:24 <Shervin> Richard: Will take a look at the UNGEN schema.
17:33:30 <Shervin> Behnam: We can keep the original with diacritics.
17:33:58 <Behnam> ACTION: Behnam to work with Richard on the Persian transliteration column in glossary
17:33:58 <trackbot> Created ACTION-48 - Work with richard on the persian transliteration column in glossary [on Behnam Esfahbod - due 2016-02-02].
17:34:36 <Shervin> Mostafa: If we find a book like a dictionary and script to get diacritics out.
17:34:37 <mostafa> http://www.vajehyab.com/dehkhoda/کتاب
17:34:54 <Shervin> q+
17:35:11 <mostafa> q-
17:36:28 <Shervin> Shervin: Too much of a specific set of glossary terms.
17:36:58 <Shervin> ... the existing sources might not have any information.
17:37:13 <Shervin> Behnam: Will work on this and inform the rest.
17:37:43 <Shervin> Behnam: Closing the meeting.
17:38:08 <r12a> rssagent, draft minutes
17:38:21 <r12a> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:38:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/26-alreq-minutes.html r12a
17:40:55 <Behnam> https://github.com/w3c/alreq/network
17:42:47 <Behnam> https://w3c.github.io/i18n-activity/editorial-guidelines/#request
17:44:00 <Behnam> https://w3c.github.io/i18n-activity/editorial-guidelines/#request
17:44:35 <Behnam> Request that your changes be incorporated into the W3C repo
17:45:44 <Behnam> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/blob/gh-pages/editorial-guidelines/index.html#L82
17:47:05 <Behnam> https://github.com/ntounsi/alreq
17:50:09 <Behnam> r12a: We may want to note in the GH guide that the "base fork" should *remain* as "w3c/..."
17:50:25 <r12a> ok
18:00:22 <najib> najib has left #alreq
18:27:48 <Behnam> Zakim, bye
18:27:48 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been r12a, mostafa, amr, shervin, behnam, najib, waseem
18:27:48 <Zakim> Zakim has left #alreq
18:28:08 <Behnam> RRSAgent, bye
18:28:08 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2016/01/26-alreq-actions.rdf :
18:28:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Waseem to draft a section on numerals for Arabic Script Overview [1]
18:28:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/01/26-alreq-irc#T17-09-06
18:28:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Behnam to work with Richard on the Persian transliteration column in glossary [2]
18:28:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/01/26-alreq-irc#T17-33-58