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13:58:17 <janina> present+ janina
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13:59:15 <tzviya> present+ Tzviya
13:59:41 <tzviya> zakim, this is DPUB-ARIA
13:59:41 <Zakim> got it, tzviya
13:59:55 <tzviya> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dpub-aria/2016Jan/0012.html
14:00:26 <tzviya> chair: tzviya
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14:02:56 <tzviya> present+ Markus
14:03:08 <mgylling> scribenick: mgylling
14:05:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
14:06:37 <mgylling> topic: Schedule changes (based on ARIA 1.1 moving)
14:07:02 <mgylling> tzviya: yesterday, you decided to push out the pseudo-last-call
14:07:13 <mgylling> rich: we’re gonna do a heartbeat instead
14:07:20 <mgylling> tzviya: by when?
14:07:25 <mgylling> rich: by CSUN
14:07:45 <mgylling> tzviya: will that included information re replacing describedAt?
14:08:01 <mgylling> … the core spec has a trickle-down effect for both DPUB and EPUB
14:08:25 <mgylling> rich: I logged an issue after the meeting for extended descriptions, going to look at link-type as well
14:08:38 <mgylling> tzviya: I think Joanie was working on that
14:08:45 <mgylling> janina: issue 1009
14:09:02 <mgylling> s/1009/2006
14:09:27 <janina> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2006
14:09:36 <MichaelC> present+ MichaelC
14:09:39 <janina> Above opened by Joanie
14:09:51 <mgylling> rich: I also put on in for extended descs
14:09:56 <mgylling> s/on/one
14:10:17 <janina> Rich's issue is:
14:10:18 <janina> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1009
14:10:49 <mgylling> tzviya: so the plan is that both of these will be in heartbeat by CSUN?
14:11:00 <mgylling> rich: provided we can get the group to sign off, yes
14:11:18 <mgylling> … we have an errormessage attribute, and I think we might follow a similar strategy there
14:12:01 <mgylling> … we can either do two things: either an errormessage that takes an ID, and we will say that it has to be visible
14:12:27 <mgylling> … we can actually annotate the target with a special attribute. Question I have, are extended descs always invisible?
14:12:31 <mgylling> Tzviya: no
14:12:36 <mgylling> janina: use MQ for that
14:12:45 <mgylling> rich: ok so thats a different strategy then
14:12:59 <mgylling> … we have to determine if its hidden, what do we do with it
14:13:33 <mgylling> tzviya: we talked about a toggle option
14:13:46 <mgylling> rich: if its invisible, do we not map it?
14:14:09 <tzviya> extended description analysis: http://w3c.github.io/dpub-accessibility/extended-description-analysis.html
14:14:11 <mgylling> .. if we have a relationship that goes to an extended desc that is invisible, we do nothing with it
14:14:39 <mgylling> … if the MQ is in place and its visible, then we show the relationship
14:15:35 <mgylling> tzviya: we are trying to accomplish that its accessible to AT, but not necessarily displayed
14:16:01 <mgylling> janina: only for non-visual AT users?
14:16:14 <mgylling> … sighted users are going to want to see the text
14:16:23 <mgylling> tzviya: thats why we talked about the toggle
14:16:47 <mgylling> s/visible to AT/exposed to AT
14:17:20 <mgylling> rich: the importance of the extended desc is that its not just text, contains structure, if you make it hidden its just a string
14:17:35 <mgylling> … for it to be available it needs to visible in some way, and that would be the MQ
14:18:11 <mgylling> … if there is an extended desc, and we want to be able to say there’s an ED, and you can’t get at it unless you turn on the MQ.
14:19:02 <mgylling> janina: this would support having markup available
14:19:12 <mgylling> … because we’re hiding with the MQ
14:19:31 <tzviya> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Jan/0031.html
14:19:39 <mgylling> tzviya: we’ve talked about a theoretical MQ, what does it look like?
14:19:59 <mgylling> rich: the MQ would be something on the order of “show extended descriptions”
14:20:14 <mgylling> tzviya: most MQs I’ve seen has to do with screen size or device...
14:20:30 <mgylling> ivan: for me MQ is a CSS feature, we cannot define something for CSS
14:20:37 <mgylling> rich: this has to be done in the CSS WG
14:20:54 <mgylling> tzviya: so we dont really have a solution yet, if we dont have a functional MQ
14:21:08 <mgylling> janina: we need someone to get busy in CSSWG to do this
14:21:23 <mgylling> ivan: the TODO list of the CSSWG is enormous
14:22:05 <mgylling> https://www.w3.org/TR/mediaqueries-4/#custom-mq
14:22:38 <mgylling> ivan: the point is that at the moment, we are trying to push reading systems to rely on provided CSS, IDPF wants to avoid extensions
14:23:11 <mgylling> … its a very long process
14:24:20 <mgylling> rich: we’ve got a binary MQ for inverted colors
14:25:23 <mgylling> matt: is it valid to do user preference in MQ though?
14:25:28 <mgylling> janina: sure
14:25:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://drafts.csswg.org/mediaqueries-4/#inverted
14:25:50 <ivan> @media monochrome { ...}
14:27:14 <mgylling> rich: jcraig offered to do the ED media query for us
14:28:15 <mgylling> janina: we want to do this easy now and get some implementation experience
14:29:16 <mgylling> janina: I can check with jcraig if he still is willing to do this
14:30:14 <mgylling> tzviya: I like to think about this as for ARIA in general, not for DPUB only, it will go into the ARIA spec
14:31:21 <mgylling> ivan: I think we should involve Florian as well, he’s an MQ editor and on DPUB IG
14:31:57 <mgylling> rich: one more thing: the OS does not have this functionality, so the setting would have to be in the browser
14:33:11 <mgylling> … the ability to tell a web app that I want ED exposed has to be set somewhere
14:34:12 <mgylling> … there’s got to be a mechanism to make the change
14:34:26 <mgylling> … it would take a lot longer to convince OS owners
14:35:34 <mgylling> … reading systems would then need to have the ability to go in and turn the setting off or on in browsers
14:36:10 <mgylling> janina: in IndieUI, we were thinking of a set of personalization settings like these
14:36:30 <mgylling> … but that WG hasnt kicked off yet
14:36:43 <tzviya> q?
14:36:49 <mgylling> … the personalization stuff ended up in the ARIA charter
14:38:01 <mgylling> tzviya: DPUB will get involved once ARIA personalization starts
14:38:22 <mgylling> tzviya: ARIA 1.1 will remove describedAt, in the near term, what are authors supposed to do?
14:39:04 <mgylling> … we dont have a mechanisms for distinguishing arbitrary details elements from an extended descripton details
14:39:14 <mgylling> s/mechanisms/mechanism
14:39:40 <mgylling> janina: we were going to disambiguate that right?
14:39:48 <mgylling> rich: yes I logged an issue
14:40:42 <mgylling> janina: a bunch of stuff is stacked up against it
14:40:55 <mgylling> … change the definition of alt, etc
14:41:35 <mgylling> rich: let Joanie know if you have more value to add into her work on linktype
14:42:01 <mgylling> s/value/values
14:42:28 <mgylling> rich: the CSS work should come from APA, not ARIA
14:43:24 <mgylling> ivan: coming back to where we are: details is i the WD of HTML 5.1. This is as far as I understood to get it out as REC at the end of this year?
14:43:33 <mgylling> janina: yes
14:43:50 <mgylling> ivan: caniuse claims that details is implemented only by webkit
14:44:14 <tzviya> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Jan/0031.html
14:44:24 <tzviya> wroing link
14:44:27 <tzviya> http://caniuse.com/#search=details
14:45:28 <mgylling> janina: think we got message from MS that it is one the agenda for Edge
14:46:12 <mgylling> rich: and firefox is working on it
14:48:24 <mgylling> tzviya: even if FF is working on it now, we dont have a timeline do we?
14:49:41 <mgylling> s/<aria/<a aria
14:52:31 <mgylling> markus: details may work even if its not implemented natively; we dont use any of its intrinsic behaviors do we?
14:52:48 <mgylling> ivan: we need to talk to Florian about timeline for MQ4
14:53:05 <mgylling> … I would not rely on having MQ in place for this
14:53:19 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=591737
14:53:49 <mgylling> markus: Ivan right, but at least some of the use cases are covered even without it
14:54:18 <ivan> markus, I agree
14:54:54 <tzviya> rrsagent, make logs public
14:56:51 <tzviya> rrsagent, make minutes
14:56:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/21-dpub-aria-minutes.html tzviya
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