17:29:58 RRSAgent has joined #aria 17:29:58 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/01/21-aria-irc 17:30:00 RRSAgent, make logs world 17:30:00 Zakim has joined #aria 17:30:02 Zakim, this will be 17:30:02 I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot 17:30:03 Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference 17:30:03 Date: 21 January 2016 17:31:10 fesch has joined #aria 17:31:33 present+ fesch 17:32:04 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Jan/att-0083/00-part 17:35:11 cyns has joined #aria 17:36:40 scribe: fesch 17:36:45 chair: Rich 17:37:09 https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/decision-policy 17:37:10 TOPIC: Draft Decision Policy 17:37:12 clown has joined #aria 17:38:25 jamesn has joined #aria 17:38:40 mck has joined #aria 17:38:51 mc: significant change - will send separate calls for consensus for resolutions in a meeting, clarification 48 hrs is the minimum duration, unless in a hurry we will usually allow a longer time 17:39:49 q+ 17:39:52 mc: structural change - consolidated stuff - steps up to the top 17:40:18 mc: expounds on process... can read it in the policy 17:41:26 rs: where is the 7 day piece? 17:41:35 mc: it has been removed 17:42:16 js: we don't want to box ourselves in, perhaps we need to meet a heartbeat publishing deadline... we would be stuck 17:43:08 js: we removed the 7 day part, to allow us more flexibility... 17:43:25 q? 17:43:32 ack janina 17:43:37 js: we can say you have 5 business days, but we don't want to be trapped 17:43:49 rs: there should be a maximum... 17:44:01 rs: who decides how long it will be? 17:44:47 mc: process for folks that know they won't make the meeting... they can ask for a longer period, chair already has control of the time limit 17:45:16 rs: trouble is we could resolve and then someone could want it reopened 17:45:44 mc: a wiki log of official decisions gives a history... 17:45:54 q+ 17:46:54 rs: concerned we will be back in the same state 17:47:33 js: don't know if we can stop stuff with policy, but we need to be able to control an agenda 17:47:53 mc: there are good reasons to miss - a dead cat for instance (?) 17:49:07 mc: the separate admin lists should help and focus attention - even if they miss 17:49:10 bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria 17:49:36 present+ Bryan_Garaventa 17:49:51 rs: I will push for 2-3 days and want to know why they can't decide in that time frame... need a good reason 17:50:28 mc: unless the chair has a good reason to not grant an exception, I think the chair should grant an exception 17:50:58 +1 for moving on to aria 2.0 17:51:00 mc: we can fall back on policy if there is a problem 17:51:16 q? 17:51:21 jemma has joined #aria 17:51:32 ack me 17:51:45 fesch: does this policy apply to task forces? 17:52:36 js: a task force can make it's own decision policy 17:52:52 mc: I suggest a task force keep their policy informal 17:53:29 rs: I think we can continue the way we have been doing it (SVG a11y) 17:53:53 Stefan has joined #aria 17:53:53 js: I support that approach, we only make policies when we run into problems 17:54:09 rs: trying to support folks that can't always make meetings 17:54:19 q? 17:54:32 present+ jemmajaeunku 17:54:39 present: Michael_Cooper, Bryan_Garaventa, Cynthia_Shelly, Fred_Esch, James_Nurthen, Janina_Sajka, Jemma_Ku, Joanmarie_Diggs, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Matt_King, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Stefan_Schnabel, Tzviya_Siegman 17:54:52 q? 17:54:53 rs: I will push for a 2-3 day solution on CFCs... 17:55:40 mk: for technical resolutions for content of a spec, is there an advantage to making it less than a week? Writing responses can take time... you have other work to do 17:55:50 business days make sense, trouble committing on weekends 17:55:54 rs: but you would have attended the meeting.... 17:56:29 mk: wondering how 2-3 days makes it quicker? 17:56:46 rs: it lets the editors move on to the next set of issues 17:57:05 js: this excludes holidays and weekends 17:57:22 js: Saturday and Sunday don't count 17:57:42 rs: I am talking about 2 -3 business days 17:58:07 js: if you have questions, bring it up at APA next week... 17:58:24 rs: we are currently operating under it yet... 17:58:45 mc: we need to be more careful adopting it... 17:58:55 rs: any questions? 17:59:11 ---- silence ---- 17:59:26 rs: Janina you can take it up at the APA 17:59:43 TOPIC Discuss Survey on possible Meeting Time change 17:59:46 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/83726/2016-01-telecon/results 18:00:17 rs: Mondays have a lot of no's.... 18:00:27 cyns has joined #aria 18:00:50 mc: Friday at 1pm is the preference and Thursday at 3pm Eastern is next... 18:00:59 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/83726/2016-01-telecon/results 18:01:32 rs: Joanie misses once every other month... 18:02:08 mc: Thursday at 12 was the third choice - effectively not changing 18:03:29 present+ ShaneM 18:03:51 mk: I marked at time slot as OK, didn't mark noon Eastern on Thursday but half past is OK 18:04:09 present+ Markus 18:04:49 tz: running meeting on Friday is a tough time, would cut off folks in Asia 18:05:28 rs: Friday is not a positive experience for many... and would take out Asia, Australia 18:06:31 rs: we checked it out, sounds like now is the best time... 18:06:52 "This questionnaire is open from 2016-01-18 to 2016-01-25." 18:07:23 rs: will keep it as it is 18:08:00 jn: we are not making a change so why would we need a CFC? 18:08:18 RESOLUTION: meeting time stays the same 18:08:43 https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1380 18:08:54 TOPIC Action-1830 18:09:14 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Jan/0079.html 18:09:59 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Jan/att-0096/00-part 18:10:02 rs: changing text in ARIA spec 18:10:14 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Jan/att-0096/00-part 18:10:38 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Jan/att-0096/00-part 18:11:09 When aria-hidden="true" is applied to an element, the element and all descendant elements are removed from the accessibility tree. If aria-hidden="true" is applied to an image, the entire image is removed from the accessibility tree. 18:11:11 When role="none" (or role="presentation") is applied to an element, the element's role semantics are removed, but the element's descendants remain exposed to the accessibility APIs. Most images do not have descendants elements, so the end result of applying role="none" is that entire element is removed, as if aria-hidden="true" had been applied. When an image has descendants (e.g. ...src="example.svg"> or

18:13:07 rs: png doesn't support ARIA... James has some nice text... 18:15:38 rs: reads... 18:17:29 fesch: with an img with an SVG source, the SVG children do not appear in the DOM 18:18:08 js: need something about owned elements... 18:18:37 q+ 18:18:39 js: is it true SVG never has required elements? 18:18:44 rs: true 18:19:59 action Rich to rewrite proposal to take into account that an img with source svg has no children and also to address the required owned elements 18:20:00 Created ACTION-2007 - Rewrite proposal to take into account that an img with source svg has no children and also to address the required owned elements [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2016-01-28]. 18:21:10 Topic Review Pending Review Items 18:21:16 action-1724 18:21:16 action-1724 -- Matthew King to Create a proposal to simplify grids in order to incorporate the list view concept -- due 2016-01-21 -- PENDINGREVIEW 18:21:16 http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1724 18:21:36 http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/mck-action1724/aria/aria.html#grid 18:21:38 can you not hear me 18:21:46 crap 18:21:53 unmute me 18:22:53 mk: wanted to comment on img - don't want to recreate all text on role presentation 18:23:01 mk: 1724... 18:24:31 mk: from a testing point of view, I don't think the text would change any test cases, changes are oriented in providing better guidance 18:24:44 rs: what are the changes? 18:25:36 mk: goes through changes - ( you can see them in the action) 18:26:38 tzviya has joined #aria 18:26:41 mk: issue with flattening text 18:28:20 mk: as long as the element in a grid cell gets focus and not the grid cell, then the screen reader can interact easier with interactive content 18:31:32 mk: ... second paragraph role does not imply a visual layout... in cleanup in 3 rd paragraph... 4th paragraph ... 18:32:13 rs: if in a cell and tab to table were does focus go? 18:32:30 mk: we don't want to add practices to this spec... 18:32:49 rs: are you saying you can tab to a button inside a grid cell? 18:34:22 mk: depends... (long example...) isn't any different than in ARIA 1.0 except in ARIA 1.0 the cell is expected to get focus 18:35:02 q+ 18:35:17 rs: what I don't want to happen is land in the middle of a grid and not know where they are 18:36:04 mk: nothing in the spec that says anything about that - we don't put limits on what may be an accessible practice in some cases 18:36:19 q+ 18:36:56 mk: in ARIA 1.0 no language on what could get focus inside a grid, there is language in practices 18:37:05 "Grids allow the user to move focus between cells using two dimensional navigation." 18:37:16 js: grids allow 2D navigation in the grid... 18:38:47 mk: master doesn't give direction to folks writing guidance... 18:40:13 mk: I reduced what is in the master, was not aware of rowspan, colspan... 18:40:29 7. Removed the following statement because the language of sections "7.4 Implicit WAI-ARIA Semantics," "7.5 Conflicts with Host Language Semantics," and "7.6 State and Property Attribute Processing" makes it obsolete: 18:40:30 "However, if the author applies a non-global WAI-ARIA state or property to a native markup element that is acting as a row, such as the tr element in HTML, the author MUST also apply the row role to that element as stated in the section on Implementation in Host Languages." 18:42:09 rs: but you are also saying that something can be used in a grid and we already state that in ARIA 1.1 18:42:47 mk: I assumed that was still useful to the reader... willing to remove if you think it is bloat 18:43:36 rs: where are the changes opening up interaction within the grid 18:44:29 mc: grid def is shorter... def grid provides 2d navigation 18:45:08 mc: limiting language is removed... first 2 sentences are more clear on purpose of a grid 18:45:53 "Grids do not necessarily imply presentation. The grid construct describes relationships between data such that it may be used for different presentations." 18:46:36 mc: a grid is still logically tabular... 18:46:48 mc: a two dimensional composite 18:48:07 mc: keyboard management - second sentence and two bullets are new 18:49:14 rs: difference - an interactive element in a grid can receive focus without having to use the arrow navigation 18:49:52 rs: I don't have to land on a cell, I can land on an interactive item as the first focus item 18:50:15 q? 18:50:18 q+ 18:50:44 q- 18:51:55 rs: what if you have 3 links in a cell? 18:52:20 mk: we will address that in the practices... there are a lot of different ways that it could work. 18:53:46 mc: lots of folks at TPAC supported this change 18:54:14 clown has joined #aria 18:54:51 a cell contains a single interactive widget that will not consume arrow key presses when it receives focus, such as a checkbox, button, or link authors MAY set focus on the interactive element contained in the cell. This allows the contained widget to be directly operable. 18:55:00 If a cell contains a single interactive widget that will not consume arrow key presses when it receives focus, such as a checkbox, button, or link authors MAY set focus on the interactive element contained in the cell. This allows the contained widget to be directly operable. 18:55:15 mc; discussed at TPAC... 18:56:12 rs: I don't want people getting lost 18:56:32 I like it. 18:57:04 mc: very motivated... talking to vendors... 18:57:10 q? 18:57:26 q- 18:58:47 jd: says to mck I mean the exact expected behavior 18:59:33 jn: we often used a readonly role as table as use is in the wild 18:59:51 rs: anyone have issues about Matt's change 19:00:08 js: aria- readonly .... default is issue 19:00:34 mc: readonly is not allowed to be undefined... 19:01:41 mc: putting readonly on the grid is only an author convenience, unless the value of the cell only become editable when you interact with it. 19:02:01 chaals has joined #aria 19:02:30 mc: readonly undefined on a grid would be useful... then when you press enter on a gridbox it becomes editable... 19:02:50 mc: does that have any mapping consequence 19:03:03 jcraig has joined #aria 19:03:04 An undefined value for aria-readonly, i.e., aria-readonly is not specified, does not imply that a grid or a gridcell contains editable content. 19:03:46 mc is really mk -typo! 19:05:11 mk: found readonly behavior on screen reader vendors problematic 19:05:46 jd: we added a state readonly a few years ago 19:06:29 https://developer.gnome.org/atk/2.18/atk-AtkState.html#AtkStateType 19:06:36 mk: I wish on a grid, readonly would be undefined.... 19:07:05 rs: do we need another week on this? 19:07:20 js: my misgivings are minor 19:07:59 RESOLUTION: accept action-1724 proposal 19:08:08 jd to do a pull 19:08:14 jcraig_ has joined #aria 19:08:30 rrsagent, make minutes 19:08:30 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/21-aria-minutes.html fesch 19:08:48 RESOLUTION close action-1724 19:08:53 issue-633 19:08:53 Sorry, but issue-633 does not exist. 19:09:20 rrsagent, make minutes 19:09:20 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/21-aria-minutes.html fesch 19:20:13 jcraig has joined #aria 19:54:15 richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria 19:55:28 clown has joined #aria 20:02:18 jcraig has joined #aria 20:16:37 clown1 has joined #aria 21:01:19 jongund has joined #aria 21:04:49 jongund has joined #aria 21:27:58 Zakim has left #aria 21:39:24 richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria 21:42:02 richardschwerdtfeger has left #aria 21:48:57 clown has left #aria 22:05:28 jcraig has joined #aria 23:01:23 jcraig has joined #aria 23:16:20 sam has joined #aria 23:23:45 jcraig has joined #aria 23:30:39 jcraig has joined #aria