19:50:00 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #sdw
19:50:00 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/01/20-sdw-irc
19:50:02 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
19:50:02 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #sdw
19:50:04 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SDW
19:50:04 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
19:50:05 <trackbot> Meeting: Spatial Data on the Web Working Group Teleconference
19:50:05 <trackbot> Date: 20 January 2016
19:50:12 <robin> robin has joined #sdw
19:50:23 <kerry> present+ kerry
19:50:32 <kerry> chair: kerry
19:50:37 <robin> present+
19:51:38 <kerry> rragent, make logs public
19:51:50 <kerry> rrsagent, make logs public
19:52:05 <kerry> rrsagent, draft minutes
19:52:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/20-sdw-minutes.html kerry
19:53:57 <kerry> regrets+  Danh, Phil, Ed, Bart, Bill, Scott
19:54:24 <kerry> regrets+ Alejandro
19:56:32 <robin> present+ robin
19:56:53 <kerry> regrets+ Payam
19:58:17 <frans> frans has joined #sdw
19:58:41 <frans> present+ frans
19:59:03 <aharth> aharth has joined #sdw
20:00:14 <ClemensPortele> ClemensPortele has joined #sdw
20:00:44 <ahaller2> ahaller2 has joined #sdw
20:00:52 <Linda> Linda has joined #sdw
20:00:59 <kerry> scribe: frans
20:01:04 <Linda> Present+ Linda
20:01:06 <kerry> scribenick:frans
20:01:07 <ClemensPortele> present+ ClemensPortele
20:01:11 <aharth> present+ aharth
20:01:32 <kerry> scribenick: frans
20:01:45 <joshlieberman> joshlieberman has joined #sdw
20:02:03 <frans> present+ frans
20:02:05 <ahaller2> present+ ahaller2
20:02:16 <Linda> Thanks Kerry!
20:02:32 <joshlieberman> present+ joshlieberman
20:03:14 <KJanowicz> KJanowicz has joined #sdw
20:03:18 <jtandy> jtandy has joined #sdw
20:03:55 <ChrisLittle> ChrisLittle has joined #sdw
20:04:12 <joshlieberman> webex password?
20:04:15 <ChrisLittle> present+ ChrisLittle
20:04:26 <ChrisLittle> v4qtEh56
20:04:41 <jtandy> present+ jtandy
20:05:01 <frans> chair:kerry
20:05:35 <frans> chair: Kerry
20:05:39 <frans> chair: kerry
20:05:39 <joshlieberman> Thanks ChrisLittle
20:06:00 <MattPerry> MattPerry has joined #sdw
20:06:10 <SimonCox> SimonCox has joined #sdw
20:06:18 <AndreaPerego> AndreaPerego has joined #sdw
20:06:23 <KJanowicz> Hi Kerry, can I very briefly talk 2 min about the workshop proposal?
20:06:27 <SimonCox> present+ SimonCox
20:06:33 <MattPerry> present+ MattPerry
20:07:07 <frans> PROPOSED: Accept last week's minutes: https://www.w3.org/2016/01/13-sdw-minutes
20:07:11 <jtandy> +1
20:07:16 <ClemensPortele> +1
20:07:16 <frans> +1
20:07:22 <kerry> +1
20:07:23 <KJanowicz> +1
20:07:27 <ahaller2> I was attending last week, probably forgot present
20:07:28 <ChrisLittle> +1 minutes
20:07:32 <Linda> +1
20:07:38 <MattPerry> +1
20:07:43 <ahaller2> no problem
20:07:45 <ahaller2> +1
20:08:02 <frans> resolved: accept last weekś minutes
20:08:10 <frans> topic: patent call
20:08:13 <kerry> patent call: https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Patent_Call
20:08:44 <frans> kerry: no comments on patent call
20:09:06 <frans> TOPIC: extra item: workshop
20:09:42 <frans> KJanowicz: SSN workshop will be held
20:09:52 <robin> robin has joined #sdw
20:10:37 <frans> KJanowicz organizes together with Josh
20:10:46 <frans> kerry: where and when?
20:10:50 <AndreaPerego> present+ AndreaPerego
20:10:53 <ahaller2> \ Can you post the link?
20:10:59 <KJanowicz> http://giscience.geog.mcgill.ca/
20:11:06 <frans> KJnaowicz: Montreal 27 september - 30 september
20:11:28 <frans> KJanowicz: please send in ideas for the workshop
20:11:36 <AndreaPerego> s/KJnaowicz/KJanowicz/
20:11:51 <kerry> topic: f2f
20:11:53 <frans> TOPIC: F2F meeting Amersfoort
20:12:07 <frans> kerry: I made a draft agenda
20:12:36 <frans> kerry: copying the agenda in the IRC, please have a look
20:12:36 <kerry> http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Agenda_F2F3
20:12:58 <frans> ... people who are not going: please look at the times
20:13:28 <frans> ... enough presence of SSN people is questioned
20:13:51 <SimonCox> I'll be a bit hit and miss on the wire
20:14:00 <frans> comments can be added to the wiki
20:14:03 <jtandy> q+
20:14:22 <joshlieberman> Later in the day is certainly better for those in the US east.
20:14:40 <frans> ChrisLittle: need more time
20:14:59 <ClausStadler> ClausStadler has joined #sdw
20:15:03 <KJanowicz> can somebody post the wiki link to the list of participants for the F2F?
20:15:10 <ClausStadler> present+ ClausStadler
20:15:34 <AndreaPerego> Participants: https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Attending_F2F3
20:16:17 <ahaller2> sounds good
20:16:35 <kerry> ack next
20:16:55 <frans> jtandy: BP editors have some topics for the agenda
20:17:16 <frans> ... they will ask for real world examples
20:18:10 <frans> kerry: chris, please make a suggesetion for a time slot for time
20:18:31 <kerry> q?
20:18:37 <Linda> Q+
20:18:50 <frans> kerry: frans, please place request for UCR time on the wiki
20:18:54 <AndreaPerego> s/suggesetion/suggestion/
20:19:01 <kerry> ack
20:19:06 <kerry> ack next
20:19:12 <frans> Linda: start and end times?
20:19:29 <frans> kerry: I think it depends on the venue
20:19:43 <frans> Linda: I have the key so anything is possible
20:19:51 <frans> kerry: nine to six?
20:20:09 <frans> kerry: and a lunch break
20:20:27 <ChrisLittle> +1 to 9-6 and lunch and coffees
20:20:39 <AndreaPerego> +1 from me
20:21:10 <ChrisLittle> * any hagelslaght?
20:21:32 <frans> ClausStadler: not certain of attendence yet
20:21:49 <frans> kerry: please put attendence on the wiki
20:21:52 <kerry> q?
20:22:29 <frans> TOPIC: SSN Modularisation: what does a good ontology modularisation look like? see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ssn-cg/2012Jun/0000.html
20:23:01 <frans> kerry: objection to SSN was complexity
20:23:17 <frans> kerry: it is common to just use a bit of the vocabulary
20:23:53 <frans> kerry: do people have ideas on good modularization?
20:24:03 <KJanowicz> +1
20:24:18 <ahaller2> q+
20:24:22 <frans> kerry: modularisation may be a topic in coverage and time as well
20:24:23 <kerry> ack next
20:24:45 <frans> ahaller: horizontal and vertical modularization
20:24:52 <SimonCox> Good modularization: limit external dependencies
20:25:10 <frans> ahaller: event model (which?) is a good example
20:25:12 <ahaller2> s/ahaller:/KJanowicz:
20:25:31 <kerry> q?
20:25:36 <frans> kerry: please post a link of the example
20:25:46 <KJanowicz> http://semanticweb.cs.vu.nl/2009/11/sem/
20:26:02 <KJanowicz> see, for instance, http://semanticweb.cs.vu.nl/2009/11/img/Fig1.jpg
20:26:31 <KJanowicz> +1
20:26:42 <frans> ahaller2: generally agrees, but there should not be to many modules
20:26:51 <kerry> q?
20:27:09 <ahaller2> ... and put all upper level relations in one module
20:27:29 <ClemensPortele> s/to many/too many/
20:27:53 <frans> kerry: what is modularisation? Is it multiple files?
20:28:06 <aharth> q+
20:28:08 <kerry> q?
20:28:10 <joshlieberman> q+
20:28:17 <kerry> ack aharth
20:28:46 <frans> aharth: different namespaces are probably needed
20:28:48 <ahaller2> +1
20:28:59 <kerry> ack joshlieberman
20:29:12 <KJanowicz> This is how we addressed the problem in Geolink: http://schema.geolink.org/
20:29:47 <frans> joshlieberman: imports could be a problem
20:30:17 <KJanowicz> +1
20:30:33 <frans> kerry: the point is being able to use just a bit, without bother from other stuff
20:30:33 <ahaller2> q+
20:31:01 <KJanowicz> it is more than that
20:31:09 <SimonCox> Namespace issue has nasty interaction with linked-data assumptions
20:31:11 <frans> joshlieberman: perhaps it is just a question of documentation and visualization
20:31:14 <kerry> ack next
20:31:45 <jtandy> q?
20:31:53 <KJanowicz> +1
20:32:08 <frans> KJanowicz: memory consumption on lightweight devices is a factor
20:32:25 <SimonCox> disagree with @ahaller regarding motivation for modularization.
20:32:49 <SimonCox> s/KJanowicz:/ahaller2:
20:34:06 <KJanowicz> also logical implications
20:34:34 <frans> (I am sorry, I did not get the message)
20:35:04 <SimonCox> agree with KJanowicz - need to be able to remove unintended/unfortunate entailments
20:35:21 <KJanowicz> modularization also important to avoid strong 'ontological commitments'
20:35:31 <frans> kerry: no clear solution yet, but worhtwile to hear different views
20:35:40 <kerry> q?
20:35:57 <frans> ClausStadler: what about the data cube vocab?
20:36:21 <ClausStadler> q+
20:36:36 <SimonCox> Yes - overlap with several other ontologies. OBOE, BCO
20:36:42 <frans> kerry: SSN predates data cube vocabulary
20:37:04 <kerry> q?
20:37:10 <SimonCox> BCO is aligned with BFO, so takes fundamental continuant/occurrent split as a starting point
20:37:11 <frans> kerry: not sure whether data cube affects modularization
20:37:15 <kerry> ack ClausStadler
20:37:22 <AndreaPerego> s/worhtwile/worthwhile/
20:37:43 <frans> TOPIC: SSN Tools: what tools for collaborative ontology editing? http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/SSN_Tasks
20:38:24 <KJanowicz> also: avoid problems like whether we allow for virtual sensors or now
20:38:48 <frans> ahaller2: GitHub can be used, but webprotege has limitations
20:39:32 <jtandy> q+ to note that @phila should have a view on this
20:39:33 <KJanowicz> Why not use DL functional syntax first?
20:39:38 <frans> ahaller2: suggestions for online tools?
20:39:47 <kerry> q?
20:40:04 <ClausStadler> just one note: with git it would be possible to add e.g. a pre-commit hook which prevents being able to commit a non-validating file, but not sure if existing validators would fit your needs
20:40:26 <frans> jtandy: phil has looked around how others do it
20:40:59 <frans> jtandy: has one person been responsible. or where there more editors?
20:41:25 <Linda> q+
20:41:26 <ChrisLittle> s/where/were/
20:41:32 <jtandy> q-
20:41:45 <KJanowicz> Lets not be driven by tools too early in the process
20:42:02 <kerry> q?
20:42:30 <frans> KJanowicz: start simple, like pen and paper
20:42:45 <ahaller2> q+
20:42:47 <kerry> ack Linda
20:42:51 <KJanowicz> https://www.yworks.com/products/yed
20:43:33 <frans> Linda: in a Dutch project no online solution was found
20:43:51 <kerry> ack ahaller2
20:43:53 <frans> Linda: Topbraid and subversion was used in the end
20:43:54 <SimonCox> For collaborative editing/merging need effective diff mechanism!
20:44:21 <KJanowicz> Agreed but this is what you would have yed and other concept maps for
20:44:26 <frans> ahaller2: warns against shutting out people
20:44:35 <KJanowicz> the same will happen in protege, the axioms require an understanding of OWL
20:44:54 <SimonCox> Its not Turtle that is the issue, it is RDF!
20:45:11 <frans> ahaller: use webprotege only for classes and properties
20:45:12 <joshlieberman> It seems possible to work on both a graph level and an axiomatic level. The graph level is more accessible.
20:45:26 <KJanowicz> agree with Josh
20:45:55 <kerry> q?
20:46:11 <kerry> ack ahaller2
20:47:02 <frans> joshliebermann: just the graph view could make the ontology more accesible
20:47:32 <SimonCox> How to ensure graph/axiom views are correctly synced?
20:47:37 <frans> s/joshliebermann/joshlieberman/
20:48:10 <KJanowicz> We could use VOWL for that
20:48:16 <frans> kerry: axioms are probably the most of the work
20:48:39 <KJanowicz> http://vowl.visualdataweb.org/protegevowl.html
20:48:39 <frans> kerry: what is VOWL?
20:48:59 <joshlieberman> There is time-zone specific humor, apparently.
20:49:35 <ahaller2> the problem is with the Protege desktop version is that it will always scramble the source code
20:49:53 <SimonCox> +1 ahaller2
20:50:12 <frans> aharth: no strong opinion, no magic solution either
20:50:44 <Linda> Q+
20:50:45 <SimonCox> Would be good if Protege joined the 21st century and used turtle instead of rdf/xml
20:50:46 <frans> kerry: afraid that this topic is not going to be resolved either
20:50:55 <Linda> Why not Topbraid then?
20:51:12 <KJanowicz> This is merely a serialization
20:51:49 <SimonCox> Canonical serialization ?
20:52:07 <ahaller2> does any23 produce a reliable serialisation?
20:52:55 <kerry> action: ahaller2  to look at tools for ontology editing
20:52:55 <trackbot> Created ACTION-133 -  to look at tools for ontology editing [on Armin Haller - due 2016-01-27].
20:53:09 <Linda> q-
20:53:25 <KJanowicz> IMHO our main challenge will be to develop a good formalization. Tools and serializations are secondary, lets make sure they do not hold us back.
20:53:36 <kerry> ack Linda
20:54:01 <frans> Linda: topbraid has a free version
20:54:33 <frans> SimonCox: there is a limit on visualisation (diagrams)
20:54:48 <aharth> q+
20:54:54 <frans> SimonCox: Topbraid does better serialization
20:54:57 <kerry> ack aharth
20:55:08 <KJanowicz> Do they have a linux version?
20:55:12 <ahaller2> q-
20:55:25 <ClausStadler> i don't know about any23, but for comparing changes in RDF files I was using raptor to convert arbitrary rdf syntaxes (http://librdf.org/raptor/ | sudo apt-get install raptor2-utils) to ntriples followed by a sort - not sure what happens with blank nodes though (i try to avoid them, but with owl axioms it would be a pain)
20:55:28 <joshlieberman> http://lodlaundromat.org ?
20:55:30 <ClausStadler> (what andreas just sais ;) )
20:56:08 <joshlieberman> Also possible to use one of the "alignment" tools as the diff generator.
20:56:10 <frans> aharth: if we use canonical RDF we can use different tools
20:56:56 <SimonCox> N-Triples is always most reliable route to canonical form, but least inspectable visually!
20:56:57 <frans> kerry: that would be an ideal solution
20:57:16 <KJanowicz> Aidan's paper http://www.www2015.it/documents/proceedings/proceedings/p430.pdf
20:57:27 <AndreaPerego> s/sais/says/
20:57:51 <frans> sorry josh, I did not get that
20:58:23 <aharth> a quick way would be just sort an N-Triples file, if there are blank nodes, use the algorithm from: Aidan Hogan, "Skolemising Blank Nodes while Preserving Isomorphism", WWW conference 2015
20:59:06 <frans> kerry: josh, please note the idea in the wiki
20:59:17 <Linda> Q+
20:59:25 <kerry> ack linda
20:59:45 <frans> Linda: the LOD Laundromat could be used to clean up RDF
20:59:48 <joshlieberman> Alignment tool example: LogMap -- http://csu6325.cs.ox.ac.uk/
21:00:34 <frans> kerry: time is up, next topic will be postponed
21:01:01 <frans> kerry: reminder: please let us know about involvement in F2F meeting
21:01:25 <ChrisLittle> bye and thanks Kerry
21:01:26 <KJanowicz> bye bye
21:01:29 <AndreaPerego> Thanks, and bye
21:01:33 <joshlieberman> bye and thanks
21:01:37 <joshlieberman> joshlieberman has left #sdw
21:01:39 <ClemensPortele> bye!
21:01:46 <MattPerry> \quit
21:02:03 <kerry> rrsagent, draft minutes
21:02:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/20-sdw-minutes.html kerry
21:02:44 <kerry> bye!
21:02:59 <frans> bye
21:26:50 <kerry> trackbot, end meeting
21:26:50 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
21:26:50 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been kerry, robin, frans, Linda, ClemensPortele, aharth, ahaller2, joshlieberman, ChrisLittle, jtandy, SimonCox, MattPerry, AndreaPerego,
21:26:53 <Zakim> ... ClausStadler
21:26:58 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
21:26:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/20-sdw-minutes.html trackbot
21:26:59 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
21:26:59 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2016/01/20-sdw-actions.rdf :
21:26:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ahaller2  to look at tools for ontology editing [1]
21:26:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/01/20-sdw-irc#T20-52-55