16:57:38 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #apa
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16:57:40 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:57:42 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
16:57:42 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
16:57:43 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Platform Architectures Working Group Teleconference
16:57:43 <trackbot> Date: 20 January 2016
16:58:09 <janina> agenda?
16:58:15 <janina> zakim, clear agenda
16:58:15 <Zakim> agenda cleared
16:58:18 <janina> agenda+ preview agenda with items from two minutes
16:58:18 <janina> agenda+ To rel, or not to rel -- Discussion with ARIA-Dpub TF [See Below]
16:58:18 <janina> agenda+ Actions Review (Specs) http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/open
16:58:18 <janina> agenda+ new on TR http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html
16:58:20 <janina> agenda+ Interim APA Process Review -- Spec Tracking Wikis [See Below]
16:58:21 <janina> agenda+ Other Business
16:58:23 <janina> agenda+ next and future meetings http://www.w3.org/Guide/1998/08/teleconference-calendar#s_273
16:58:26 <janina> agenda+ be done
16:58:39 <janina>  zakim, next item
16:58:39 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, janina
16:58:45 <janina> q?
16:58:49 <janina> ack jn
16:58:54 <janina> zakim, next item
16:58:54 <Zakim> agendum 1. "preview agenda with items from two minutes" taken up [from janina]
16:59:03 <janina> present+ janina
16:59:13 <tzviya> present+ Tzviya
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17:01:20 <LJWatson> present+ LJWatson
17:02:02 <fesch> present+ fesch
17:02:18 <mgylling> Present+ mgylling
17:03:24 <joanie> no code
17:03:29 <joanie> for webex
17:03:59 <tzviya> https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m6e3f82ceee1b44268fd496d928c40001
17:04:25 <joanie> s/no code//
17:04:31 <joanie> s/for webex//
17:05:01 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
17:09:10 <janina> zakim, pick a victim
17:09:10 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose matt_king
17:09:44 <janina> zakim, pick a victim
17:09:44 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose MichaelC
17:10:06 <tzviya> scribenick: Tzviya
17:11:46 <MichaelC> MichaelC has changed the topic to: APA Teleconference; Wednesday 20 January at 17:00Z WebEx https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=mf439584d181075a804580b9894ce6c1d PW apa Num 647 857 439
17:12:06 <tzviya> JF: any news items?
17:12:50 <tzviya> RS: On tech AB for Samsung US. They are shifting to all EPUB
17:13:20 <tzviya> ...for internal documentation
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17:14:20 <MichielBijl> regrets+ MichielBijl
17:14:44 <tzviya> LW: Web Platforms WG announced that copy of HTML 5 spec is available in GitHub. All are invited to fix bugs, add issues, comments
17:14:49 <LJWatson> HTML plan http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2016Jan/0008.html
17:15:04 <tzviya> ...in advance of next iteration of next iteration of HTML5
17:15:19 <tzviya> ...Also looking for editors
17:15:58 <tzviya> zakim, next item
17:15:58 <Zakim> agendum 2. "To rel, or not to rel -- Discussion with ARIA-Dpub TF" taken up [from See Below]
17:17:17 <tzviya> MG: In ongoing EPUB 3.1 revision, we have encapsulated transition of @role. Within one year, we will have outlined transitioned to @role.
17:17:45 <tzviya> ...This means that we have to have a method to capture all things that are currently in EPUB using @role
17:17:57 <tzviya> ...One area that is still a little unclear is the matter of links.
17:18:20 <tzviya> ...Several options were put forward. Link natures in ebooks are twofold.
17:19:13 <tzviya> ...One is inline, to trigger behavior. For example link to a footnote might trigger a pop up functionality, and this will also trigger certain behavior footnote
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17:19:36 <janina> q?
17:19:45 <tzviya> ...It is also important for a user to know what is at the other end of a link before activating a link.
17:20:36 <LJWatson> q+
17:20:53 <tzviya> ...The other use case is for global navigation. An EPUB is made up of multiple documents bound together, and the user needs to be able to navigate to the components
17:21:41 <tzviya> ...One of the things that we have in EPUB is what is unfortunately called landmarks, a list of "hotspots" in a book, example where a book starts, the index, the glossary.
17:22:09 <tzviya> ...These are not a set pre-defined terms, but author defined hot spots
17:22:41 <tzviya> ...In DPUB-ARIA we have *ref to point to particular elements (e.g. noteref)
17:22:44 <rschwer> q+
17:23:13 <janina> ack l
17:23:33 <tzviya> ...We are looking for one stable mechanism. It could be @rel. It could be a new attribute. We are neutral, but we want to stick with it once we have it.
17:24:16 <tzviya> LW: What is the visual equivalent of knowing where the link goes? What are providing to AT?
17:26:16 <tzviya> MG: There is not always an equivalent. Sometimes it's a popup. It may have to do with the horrific experience of using the back button for a non-sighted reader. We should not ignore if it's just an enhancement for AT
17:26:17 <LJWatson> ack me
17:26:27 <janina> ack r
17:26:30 <tzviya> TS: As a reader, I use the tool tip that is supplied
17:26:53 <tzviya> MattG: Often the links are styled in different ways. This gets lost to AT
17:27:13 <tzviya> Rich: are you considering using @rel for other things? e.g. DC metadata?
17:27:39 <tzviya> MarkusG: We do have one other use case - using SMIL
17:28:01 <tzviya> RS: @rel is not currently mapped to AT
17:28:20 <tzviya> ...and it is not in SVG
17:28:44 <tzviya> It is not a small undertaking to expose this to AT.
17:29:25 <tzviya> MG: This is our problem with *ref. We don't see how this will scale. In extreme case, we will end up duplicating our work.
17:29:33 <tzviya> RS: This is almost like a sub-roles.
17:30:04 <tzviya> ...We could have role descriptions, which can be any string. Nothing will prevent people from colliding with them.
17:30:41 <tzviya> MG: Pretty compelling reasons not to use @rel, but what are the alternatives
17:31:04 <tzviya> RS: We can add attributes to the DPUB-ARIA spec
17:31:29 <tzviya> ...some people are concerned about scope creep for ARIA 1.1
17:31:47 <tzviya> IH: That would mean having a solution that is DPUB-specific
17:32:09 <fesch> s /creep/creap/
17:32:35 <LJWatson> q+ to ask whether we're proposing a sub-role or another new attribute?
17:32:44 <tzviya> ...This problem seems fairly general. @rel has all kinds of problem, but it would provide many solutions
17:32:49 <joanie> q+ To say if the new attribute is a link type, I can make a case for it being more general
17:32:57 <fesch> s/creap/creep/
17:33:20 <tzviya> ...If we do something DPUB specific, it is not tragic, but it seems to put the issue in a corner
17:33:43 <tzviya> RS: I will post the issue to the list and see how people respond
17:33:52 <mgylling> q?
17:34:18 <tzviya> ...All EPUB readers are web-based, so this doesn't really restrict to DPUB
17:34:40 <tzviya> LW: Is Rich suggesting looking at subroles or a new attribute?
17:35:05 <tzviya> RS: I think subroles was pushed to ARIA 2 because of ramifications
17:35:21 <mgylling> Rich’s email to dpub-aria re @rel: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dpub-aria/2016Jan/0003.html
17:35:28 <tzviya> ...The value of the subrole is that we still know it's a link, which is important
17:35:34 <tzviya> ack lj
17:35:34 <Zakim> LJWatson, you wanted to ask whether we're proposing a sub-role or another new attribute?
17:36:09 <tzviya> rs: We could definitely do a link sub-role
17:36:34 <tzviya> ...UI Automation does not have a concept of sub-role, but it does have object attributes
17:37:12 <tzviya> LW: Is there more of a challenge introducing new attribute or connecting @rel to APIs?
17:37:46 <tzviya> RS: @rel is harder because there are all the other taxonomies
17:38:08 <tzviya> ...we can add sub-role but limit scope for 1.1
17:38:37 <tzviya> RS: what is timeframe for HTML 5?
17:38:44 <tzviya> LW: no official time line
17:39:15 <tzviya> q?
17:39:18 <ivan> q+
17:39:26 <tzviya> ack jo
17:39:26 <Zakim> joanie, you wanted to say if the new attribute is a link type, I can make a case for it being more general
17:39:47 <ivan> q-
17:40:06 <tzviya> JD: sub-roles are awesome
17:40:55 <tzviya> ...there will likely be from objections from some people
17:41:21 <tzviya> ... the link type attribute might be easier to swallow
17:42:13 <tzviya> ... link type is already a thing. There are samepage, mailto, etc links
17:42:42 <tzviya> ...The use case exists already
17:42:50 <janina> ack j
17:42:55 <tzviya> CS: sub-roles is a non-starter for us
17:43:08 <tzviya> ...We have been thinking of doing a hyperlink pattern
17:43:38 <tzviya> ...a hyperlink pattern could have a link type
17:43:45 <rschwer> q?
17:43:49 <rschwer> q+
17:44:05 <janina> ack r
17:44:12 <tzviya> ...The ARIA property is there for UIA, but I would rather add
17:44:46 <tzviya> RS: I'm not a big fan of sub-roles
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17:45:35 <tzviya> ...We could introduce link type attributes in DPUB with assigned values
17:45:51 <tzviya> ...When ARIA 2.0 comes out, we could move it from DPUB to 2.0
17:45:54 <joanie> q+ To ask why Rich would not put it into 1.1. Is it feature-freeze pressures or something else?
17:46:11 <tzviya> ...I recommend against prefixing
17:46:21 <tzviya> ...Keep it lightweight
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17:48:26 <tzviya> JF: Don't we want to keep it lightweight anyway? We want to make sure that this works before rolling this out all over
17:48:59 <joanie> q-
17:49:22 <tzviya> RS: Cynthia, would you support putting this in 1.1?
17:49:49 <joanie> q+ To volunteer to draft something non-dpuby for the group to review as a general feature
17:49:52 <tzviya> CS: if it's really limited and it will shift to a pattern in 2.0, maybe (need to see samples)
17:52:03 <tzviya> JF: We will have a discussion with the ARIA WG and update HTML TF
17:52:22 <tzviya> ...@rel is not something to address at this point
17:52:23 <janina> ack j
17:52:23 <Zakim> joanie, you wanted to volunteer to draft something non-dpuby for the group to review as a general feature
17:52:48 <fesch> q+
17:53:00 <tzviya> JD: I am willing to draft out core ARIA for link types
17:53:28 <tzviya> RS: Willing to take on proposal
17:53:31 <rschwer> q?
17:53:55 <tzviya> TS: Reach out to me for DPUB perspective
17:54:32 <tzviya> JD: I'm envisioning writing up something that is not DPUB-specific, and DPUB adds some additional types
17:54:39 <tzviya> MG: That sounds ideal for us
17:54:40 <tzviya> q?
17:55:00 <mgylling> q+ to ask about HTML TF meeting tomorrow - needed?
17:55:06 <mgylling> ack fesch
17:55:14 <tzviya> ACTION joanie write link type proposal for ARIA 1.1
17:55:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2004 - Write link type proposal for aria 1.1 [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2016-01-27].
17:56:08 <ivan> q+
17:56:13 <tzviya> FE: if there is a link type for someplace that seemed safe, and it takes the user to someplace dangerous, isn't it a security concern?
17:56:17 <fesch> ack me
17:56:24 <mgylling> q-
17:57:04 <mgylling> q+
17:57:06 <tzviya> JS: We do have to trust the security of the provider to some extent
17:57:49 <tzviya> IH: Doesn't the answer to security question depend on the specific values of the attribute?
17:58:30 <tzviya> ...I don't see a security issue arising if the value is footnote. If we had something like interactive-widget, we would need to be more careful.
17:59:28 <tzviya> FE: If someone put the footnote type, but it leads to a dangerous website. Isn't this a security issue?
17:59:44 <MichaelC> present+ MichaelC
17:59:56 <tzviya> TS: How is this different from the link to the footnote without the link type?
18:00:30 <tzviya> JS: There is always an abuse vector, and people have to assess what they trust
18:00:51 <tzviya> q?
18:00:55 <tzviya> ack iv
18:00:56 <ivan> q-
18:01:06 <joanie> q+ To ask about moving the action
18:01:34 <tzviya> JS: We do not need to meet with HTML TF tomorrow
18:01:51 <tzviya> rrsagent, make minutes
18:01:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/20-apa-minutes.html tzviya
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